Getting Crazy with Liquid HELIUM

[Vector]

OK, so I'm nuts and I don't have access to the suff yet, but maybe in about a year...anyway...

I bet if an entire sysem (motherboard, processor, ram, graphics, etc) was submerged in liquid He, you could get some phenomenal performance out of it...I mean we're talking like 4 degrees above absolute zero...

At that point most metals become superconductors, so the heat produced would be greatly reduced and electron flow would probably go up by about 10x that of normat...maybe more...

I'm thinking something along the lines of 500mhz fsb (1000DDR) and about a 5GHz processor...

The only problem that I could see at that temp would be microfractures in the silicone due to processor oscillation (brittle at that temp, you know)

Oh well, just a crazy thought...
Please feel free to reply with any comments

[Rob Cork]

The main technical problem with that sort of setup is getting the equipment down to that temperature gradually so it doesn't fracture. Just as a hot piece of glass can shatter if you place it in cold water, as the outer surface expands rapidly and the inner surface remains hot, a sudden drop from room temperature to 100's of C below freezing would put huge stresses on the components. I heard where some guys in Australia tried to cool it gradually by submersing their computer in Freon cooled by dry ice, and then once the temp had stabilised submersing it in liquid N2, but they still killed the mobo.

Plus you would have to constantly top up the liquid He unless you closed the system - but that would be dangerous because as the He was heated by the components it would easily boil, and the thing would explode. Maybe for a short time though, you could get some absurd performance out of it.

Nice idea, lots of practical problems to overcome - but it'd be damned impressive if it worked :-)

[Vector]

I think the liquid nitrogen thing didn't work because nitrogen is slightly conductive in it's liquid state; however, liquid helium is completely non-conductive and really, really cold...

I'm a physics major right now, and we use liquid nitrogen to make liquid helium...grant you it's not the cheapest process in the world, but I may be able to persuade the department to give me some liquid He for my little experiment next year....

You're right about the stress fractures from instantly supercooling...and I did think about that, but I was concerned about the processor fracturing itself once it got down to temperature because it was oscillating so fast and it was so brittle...

[Rob Cork]

I see the concern with the processor fracturing - I have no idea whether that's likely, but it does seem possible. Perhaps a less extreme solution would be to use liquid helium/nitrogen as a secondary coolant, immersing the computer instead in some other liquid (an oil perhaps?) with a low freezing point (like below -150C - if such a liquid exists). You'd still have temps below -100C, though granted that's not quite superconducting range... yet ;-) That liquid N2 project I mentioned - it was only the mobo that they killed, everything else worked fine when back to normal temp, so maybe it was just the cold that killed the mobo, not the conductivity - who knows? Keep posting with ideas, it's cool to think about if not do it - I'm just starting a Natural Sciences degree (chemistry mainly), so this sort of stuff is pretty new to me but I'm learning all the time :-).

[Vector]

Can't very well use a liquid that's not supercooling it...the superconductivity aspect of it is what makes it so appealing...otherwise you're just making it really cold but not cold enough to stimulate electron flow...

Anyway, a while back, I had access to a good deal of liquid N2 but I decided against trying anything because (if i'm not mistaken) liquid nitrogen is conductive...you would fry a motherboard in a second...liquid helium on the other hand would be perfect because it is completely **non-conductive**

I think that I would only have to get around the oscillation fracture idea...if that even turns out to be an issue :)

[Big Mike]

Actually the conjecture for why the board failed was that the electrolytic capacitors and or the battery ruptured when the liquid inside froze in the article i read, perhaps thats more the issue than anything else, the liquid N2 didnt seem to damage the CPU itself.

[johnnyw]

If you have the knowledge of how to do it but it still remains to get the liquid he, just plan your ideas calmly and draw graphs and all the necessary things just that when you get the materials, you can put down to work.
I think it is the first time something like this will be done.

[FunkDaMonkMan]

wow! ... if i were you I would try it.

If the Helium is cheap enough, you could test it on a kinda cheap system, and if it works then put a monster rig in there!

[JigPu]

Wouldn't causing superconductivity be kinda bad? I mean, sure it's great in some aspects (lower voltage, ect.), but the resistors shouldn't be superconducting at that temp unless they don't use carbon resistors, and so the resistance which hasn't changed would cause an incorrect voltage drop / current restriction because the resistance of the tiny traces has dropped from a few ohms (prolly more since they're so tiny!) to nil.

But even if the resistors do start superconducting (assuming the resistors are VERY thin pieces of wire), that would also be bad because then the resistance would be WAY too low. Might just blow a component or something....

Dunno if any of what I said actually holds true, but it's something that I just thought of.... I'm OK at electronics, but not that good :D

JigPu

[FunkDaMonkMan]

Originally posted by JigPu
Wouldn't causing superconductivity be kinda bad? I mean, sure it's great in some aspects (lower voltage, ect.), but the resistors shouldn't be superconducting at that temp unless they don't use carbon resistors, and so the resistance which hasn't changed would cause an incorrect voltage drop / current restriction because the resistance of the tiny traces has dropped from a few ohms (prolly more since they're so tiny!) to nil.

But even if the resistors do start superconducting (assuming the resistors are VERY thin pieces of wire), that would also be bad because then the resistance would be WAY too low. Might just blow a component or something....

Dunno if any of what I said actually holds true, but it's something that I just thought of.... I'm OK at electronics, but not that good :D

JigPu

Well resistors are made out of semi-conductors right?

do those become more conductive near absolute zero?

sry... i'm just 7weeks into my 1st chemistry class :D

[Lusankya]

Lets not forget.. no computer componet has been designed to operate at those temps.. so i doubt it would work

[[EG]~NaTz~]

wow sounds outa my league submerging a comp i could see dropping some liquid helium on a heatsink hehe....

[cwb27]

Can't remember if I'm thinking about the right thing here, but theoretically, doesn't all particle movement stop at absolute zero? (0K) or am I thinking of something different....

[Lt. Max]

cwd: but if absolute 0 is superconductor then i dont think particle movement could stop.. im just 16.. and i dont even kno half of what im talking about:)

[-=HN=- Wild9]

Originally posted by cwb27
Can't remember if I'm thinking about the right thing here, but theoretically, doesn't all particle movement stop at absolute zero? (0K) or am I thinking of something different....

the particle movement in the wire slows down so much that the electrons can flow more freely through the wire, that is why it becomes superconductive. If you take a magnet and dump some liquid nitrogen on it, then place another magnet on top of it, you can get it to just sit there and float. its pretty awesome to see. one year in my physics class my teacher got some liquid nitrogen for us to play with, thats some wicked bad stuff right there:) but i could not even imagine some liquid helium. BTW isnt liquid helium around like 4K or something like that?

[gravitywell]

I think you should just buy a couple fans and pretend :)

[Lusankya]

cwb you are correct.. thats past the point that air turns into a solid on the floor.

Thing is.. we cannot acheive absolute 0 yet due to technological limits. Anything that gets to absolute 0 looses molecular cohesion and falls apart. We cannot get absolute zero because any container we try to get to absolute 0 would instantly fall apart.
On order to get to absolute 0 we would need a magnetic or electrical field to contain it in. Something thats not actually matter

[TLKfatman]

I think you should just buy a couple fans and pretend
lol i like your idea.

first of all no one hase ever gotten any thing to absolute zero gotten close

they say at absolute zero u could light a lite bilb and then jumper pos and neg together and take away the power sorce and it would stay lit for ever
here is the question tho if u were able to get a computer that cold would u need a power sup after start up?

[glass]

well. http://boojum.hut.fi/Low-Temp-Record.html
the record is 0.000 000 000 1 K.


liquid he isn't exactly cheap, and people already run into problems with the mobo getting too cold with ln2 cooling.


and one other thing, normal circuitry wouldn't probably work too well if one managed to get it to supraconductive because it would have to be designed with that in mind(taking into account resistances and delays and all that..).


edit: and the bulb wouldn't stay lit forever, since if it's emitting light it's using energy from the loop, though it wouldn't get lit if it was really supraconductive(the electricity would just circle in the loop forever).

[Diggrr]

Personally I'd love to see it happen and be proven wrong, but consider...If you change the conductances of components, and some become superconductors and some don't, then how would your computer keep the timings steady? Doesn't everything in the computer rely on the timing of each function? Would the current insulators on the components become condutors (though not super)?
Doesn't every material conduct at a different rate, thus the big search for the perfect material (again with the timing issue)?




And also, if there's no resistance in that lightbulb filament, then there's no heat/light produced. Besides, if you introduced that much heat into the "cold chamber" in that short period of time, the chamber itself would fracture/disintegrate, as well as not being able to maintain the temperature.
I follow the theory, but I'm a literalist most times :D

[R.Rabbit]

i love these debates, wouldn't the heat from the cpu itself fracture the core, at those temps, the temp difference would be so great, and theres too many factors, some one said, to put the liquid he on a heat sink i think this would be a very safe idea and would cost a lot less, if you put a large block underneath the heatsink it would have to cool the metal first so it would gradually cool the cpu
wel thats my 2 cents good luck! :D :D

[ssjwizard]

what i would do is build a heavily insulated box with two lines going into it 1 is a cu loop that goes in and bends back up with a fan neer it. the other goes streight down just above the cpu. what you do is turn on the system and start pouring liquid helium into the loop so that it will begin to chill the inside air. once you get down to close to the temp of the he you start to pour it into the chamber over the cpu this would gradualy cool the entire system then you could fill the chamber up so you have some time to work with the system while its submerged in boiling he you could pour more in as the level decreases giving you a few hours to play around

[metra]

I'm not sure, but isnt liquid n really dangerous? Like you cant let it touch your skin, etc? Just heard that somewhere... so it seems sorta dangerous, esp with helium at 4K.

And im really wondering what those scientists are doint to get so close to absolute zero... I mean everything makes heat, so you cant have no heat, right? And how would you in case something in non-matter? And what would happen - would the thing just disappear or spontaneously combust, lol. Also, do things lose color (turn black and white) in really low temps - heard that somewhere too - seems silly but i did hear it. It would suck if scientists did get 0K and then nothing happens and they find out that abs 0 is actually -1 k.

[IR1]

There is almost no way to get to absolute zero unless you in a vacuum, out in space with no light sources, and no ground to supply heat, Which is why some kind of magnetic field might work, though we probably wont ever see absolute Zero anytime soon... if ever. OH and yes in theory at absolute Zero all molcule movement ceases, they can get really close to A-zero and molcules move really slow... but with the way they do it something is always grounded to the earth which supplies some heat, any heat will stop A-zero. Zero heat is difficult to imagine.

But liquid helium... whoa... thats pretty nutz... is there a better way to use the LH without having to submerge the system...? you wouldnt even need a HS obviously... if u were gonna submerge it... I had to add to this since it is so thought stimulating.

[JigPu]

0K (absolute zero) even in a magnetic "bottle" would still be impossible to reach IMO (not to say that my oppinion is reality!). This is because even if you suspend an object so that it is touching nothing, and no light can get to it, you will still have to prevent other frequencies electromagnetic radiaition from getting to it. If some energy managed to come in contact with the molecules, they would HAVE to accept the energy (at least for a time) since the energy diffrence is so huge. And by placing it in a magnetic bottle, you'd be subjecting it to all kinds of EM radiation I think. So, I don't think that even THAT drastic a measure would work.

Though, it works in getting really HIGH tempuratures (Fusion temps). :D
JigPu

[Nico3k]

hmm... something tells me that you wont get video after a certain FSB. Even with the ultimate cooling, you wont get past a certain speed. Check out the supercooling articles on OC Tools: http://www.octools.com/index.cgi?caller=articles/submersion/submersion.html

good luck

[FunkDaMonkMan]

just read all of that.. very interesting.

That guy blew 1k tho :eek:

[metra]

A question: how exactly would you maintain liquid <natural form is gas>? Wouldnt it boil? Didnt read any articles on this..

[Master Mitch]

In a sense, liquified gases would *like* to boil when you leave them sitting around in open air containers. They can't just boil off, though, due to a nice little property sometimes called latent heat of vaporization.

Liquid helium, for example, will sit there at its boiling point of 4.22K (about -269C). It can't increase in temperature without becoming a gas, but it can't become a gas without receiving an influx of heat of 83 joules/mole. As the helium gains heat from the air, it evaporatively cools itself.

If you apply more heat-- like a 40W CPU-- then the helium will boil, cleverly taking the heat with it and maintaining the roughly 4K temperature. Unfortunately, you'd chew through your helium pretty quick at that rate-- call it 10 cubic cm/s.

I... guess... you could construct a phase-change system using helium as the refrigerant to pump heat out of the system. Such a rig-up would be exceedingly bada** from an engineering standpoint alone. Even, dare I say: cool.

[[EG]~NaTz~]

ok on the absolute zero thing. yes all movement stops at absolute zero.ALL MOVEMENT. we cannot reac absolute zero however do to the fact of what are we going to use to get it the er let alone like someone else above said what to contain it in. well if all movement stops at absolute zero our cooler would stop most likely before it got there. there for u see that this would create such a problem thatit may not be worth the effort. and btw i think it is one of those things we just arent supposed to figure out for quite a while...

[ssjwizard]

ok the way scientists get things close to absolute zero is refered to as BEC which is B----(cant remember his name) Einstein Condensation. they take a gas with a moderate density and encase it in a magnetic field and blast the molecules with lazers from thousands of directions at once in order to nudge it since they are moving it in so many directions at once it begins to slow down in essence becoming colder they have done it a few times down to a fraction of a degree Kelvin. thought i explain that since i saw a few people asking questions about how they do it.

[aenigma]

Yep Bose Einstein Condensate.Pretty badass stuff.
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/BEC_background.htm

If you were to make a system using helium(phase change system).You would need one hell of a compressor and it would also be needed to be cooled by an LN2 system.They produce alot of heat....

[Stagger]

You people are talking like he's actually trying to reach absolute zero. He's not.

[Master Mitch]

A helium refrigerated phase-change cooler would oh-so-definitely require several other phase-change coolers in a 'cascade' arrangement to bridge the temperature gap up to ambient. I mean, really-- when the highest temp in the loop is somewhere in the double digits Kelvin... that's one seriously cold condenser coil.

But with the right refrigerants and enough cooling stages, there's only one reason why you might not be able to chill liquid helium with fairly normal phase-change technology. I don't know about such things in detail, but I'd be mighty worried about the strength of materials at temps as low as 4K.

One might also worry about motors to drive the compressors functioning at such temps, but you could locate a motor in a more temperate zone and drive the actual compressor by shaft-- but that will also only work if you find a material strong enough at... pretty darn cold... to transmit the power. I estimate "pretty darn cold" because the temp at the compressor would no doubt be higher than 4K... but still really cold.

Now you've gotten me all stoked on this notion. We have to try modding some motherboards to move anything electrolytic elsewhere, so that the board *might* be able to survive a super-mega-deep-freeze. Unless we can think of anything else geeky to do with a fridge that will go to 4K. There must be something, and the Geek Quotient for having a gizmo like that would be inversely propotional to the temperature.

[aenigma]

Originally posted by Stagger
You people are talking like he's actually trying to reach absolute zero. He's not.

No kidding... :p
He probably wont even use helium....

A helium refrigeration system would need an ln2 system cooling its condenser, not sure what kind of compressors they use for the helium loop, but it would be a kickass compressor.

Oh the compressor shouldnt be the temp of the evap, much like an average refrigeration system....You would get liquid returning, and you dont want that....

[drunkmonkey]

This is a really cool idea, and i love this debate.
Let me get some things strait:
If the processor was a super-conductor it would produce no heat?
Can't you be a superconductor w/o being at 0K?
Could you very very slowly lower the temperature till you made the silicone a super-conductor?