View Full Version : Why solvent and a rag will not remove all of the thermal grease from your HS.
For a few weeks I have tried to get people to realize that solvent and a rag won’t get all of the old thermal grease of your HS. You need to lap it. This will affect your temps and contaminates every thermal grease review that uses the same HS to test all of the samples. For those of you that don’t believe, Nevin has posted an eloquent explanation here:
http://www.arcticsilver.com/thermal_interface_basics.htm
Furthermore, I would like to thank Nevin for polishing my understanding of thermal transfer. What I have learned has been a great help in squeezing more speed out of my system.
NUTNDUN
03-04-01, 09:34 PM
Hey Colin,
Haven't seen ya post much here lately, then I see that ya got the bird up to 1320 now, congrats. I had mine up to 1320 stable but I don't like how hot that voltage chip gets. I think I am going to try and put a heatsink on it but I wanna get a digidoc and some more case fans (yes I still haven't done that yet) that way I can keep it a little cooler and keep an eye on it a little closer.
dimmreaper
03-04-01, 09:35 PM
I've been using a solvent that I have no doubt gets the heatsink 100% clean of old thermal compound. toiletbowl cleaner. It fizzes a bunch when It comes in contact with thermal compound. If you leave it on the heatsink long enough it will begin to disolve even the aluminum of the heatsink. Great stuff! I then clean the acid off with alcohol. I should run a similar set of tests to prove its effectiveness, but I'm too damn lazy.
I used electrical CO2 cleaner to clean mine. Works perfectly. :)
I tried rubbing alcohol and nail polish remover and neither cleaned it off totally for me.
I use a Paper towel! And just wipe it off real good. I probobly miss a little but it looks clean, And I dont see any jumps in the temps.
Did you guys check the link before you posted?
dimmreaper
03-05-01, 06:14 PM
Colin (Mar 05, 2001 06:10 p.m.):
Did you guys check the link before you posted?I did, I'm still convinced that toiletbowl cleaner does the job.
Jeff Evans (Mar 05, 2001 06:14 p.m.):
I did, I'm still convinced that toiletbowl cleaner does the job.
Think we can get Nevin to do a test on it?:)
BTW Jeff, I knew you checked the link before you posted.
Metaxas
03-06-01, 05:57 AM
Jeff Evans (Mar 05, 2001 06:14 p.m.):
Colin (Mar 05, 2001 06:10 p.m.):
Did you guys check the link before you posted?I did, I'm still convinced that toiletbowl cleaner does the job.
What brand of toilet bowl cleaner? I'm interested in that. Lemme know. ;D You know, that is just screwed right there, asking what brand of toilet bowl cleaner dude uses...haahaa .... ;D
I got a small problem with the over-simplification at the AS hotlink. Most thermal compounds use an oil as the carrier for the solid. The oil molecules are much smaller than the "micronized" solids. My gut feeling is that if you lap down both surfaces to quasi-mirror, the size of the voids and are such that the oil, not the solids pack into them. When I got my FOP-32, I lapped it meticulously. I then took it to work and ran it for a half hour in the Boiling TFE Vapor Degreaser along with the CPU. I then applied Dow Corning 340 Thermal Compound (the white stuff) to it. When I read about AS a few weeks later, I bought some, repeated the cleansing process and tried it. The result was no change in core temperature with all other factors remaining equal. I still use AS since I have to justify buying enough for about a guzzillion applications.
Hoot
To get the grease off my heat sinks, I do the following,...
1. Dunk in bucket of gasoline for at least 1 month,
2. Heat the sink up to 1000 c
3. Take Hinksink to firing range, and shot it with AK-47 for a couple hours.
4. Take what's left, melt it down, and make a new Hinksink.
I have found this method to be the only way to POSITIVELY sure that all the Grease is off the sink.
OK I'm an *sshole, I know.
By the way that's a good link, I will lap my sinks from now on.
AKDUDE
dimmreaper
03-06-01, 07:21 PM
Metaxas (Mar 06, 2001 05:57 a.m.):
Jeff Evans (Mar 05, 2001 06:14 p.m.):
Colin (Mar 05, 2001 06:10 p.m.):
Did you guys check the link before you posted?I did, I'm still convinced that toiletbowl cleaner does the job.
What brand of toilet bowl cleaner? I'm interested in that. Lemme know. ;D You know, that is just screwed right there, asking what brand of toilet bowl cleaner dude uses...haahaa .... ;D"Industrial Cleaning Supply - Pinky" Its pink in color, and one good wiff will park your A$$ on the floor! Everything I buy is industrial strength, its just the way I am :)
I just spoke with the Tidy Bowl Man and he says go with a strong CFC or HFC solvent if you want a good "flush" mount :-)
Hoot
Metaxas
03-07-01, 12:13 AM
Jeff Evans (Mar 06, 2001 07:21 p.m.):
Metaxas (Mar 06, 2001 05:57 a.m.):
Jeff Evans (Mar 05, 2001 06:14 p.m.):
Colin (Mar 05, 2001 06:10 p.m.):
Did you guys check the link before you posted?I did, I'm still convinced that toiletbowl cleaner does the job.
What brand of toilet bowl cleaner? I'm interested in that. Lemme know. ;D You know, that is just screwed right there, asking what brand of toilet bowl cleaner dude uses...haahaa .... ;D"Industrial Cleaning Supply - Pinky" Its pink in color, and one good wiff will park your A$$ on the floor! Everything I buy is industrial strength, its just the way I am :)
Where do you get this stuff at, send a link, or let me buy a squirt bottle of it off you... ;D I want my toilet...I mean, my cpu to be clean... ;D And Hoot, what is CFC, or HFC solvents? Can you give some examples? The reason for me doing all this, is i'm looking for an alternative to lapping, I want to lap as LITTLE as possible, (well, my block needs to be lapped, but pops is gonna fix that one) as I cannont see 20/20, and I don't wanna ruin core.
Oh yeah, and my cpu has a nice smooth surface direct from the factory...now, the question is, will it work when my new stuff gets here...I sure hope so. :)
dimmreaper
03-07-01, 12:24 AM
Metaxas (Mar 07, 2001 12:15 a.m.):Where do you get this stuff at, send a link, or let me buy a squirt bottle of it off you... ;D I want my toilet...I mean, my cpu to be clean... ;D And Hoot, what is CFC, or HFC solvents? Can you give some examples? The reason for me doing all this, is i'm looking for an alternative to lapping, I want to lap as LITTLE as possible, (well, my block needs to be lapped, but pops is gonna fix that one) as I cannont see 20/20, and I don't wanna ruin core.
Oh yeah, and my cpu has a nice smooth surface direct from the factory...now, the question is, will it work when my new stuff gets here...I sure hope so. :)They don't sell over the net "ICS" Is a local business. You have to buy a gallon ($50) jug of concentrate when you buy it. The one gallon makes 11 gallons of mixed cleaner (after you cut it with water). Even after cutting it, it is still strong enough so that I never have to scrub the S__ter. Just spray it on an leave it on for about 5min. then flush. I hurts if you spill the concentrate on your hands (believe me this is strong stuff!). But don't take my word for it that it is a replacement for lapping, wait to see some tests (I don't want to do them).
Lapping and degreasing are only related by the components they serve. One is not a substitute for the other.
By CFC and HFC solvents, I mean such things as Flux remover, non-residue contact cleaner, automotive brake degreaser, etc. These products are available from any Electronics supply company, even Radio Shack. I have had better luck with the types that are not environmentally friendly and definitely not the kind that are organic compound based like citric acid. Best deal comes from Allied Electronics http://www.alliedelec.com , P/N 596-1003 "Flux Gone". Allied also sells a guzzillion brands of these solvents and I might mention Conformal Coatings also. Great Place.
Nagorak
03-08-01, 06:24 AM
Colin (Mar 04, 2001 09:24 p.m.):
For a few weeks I have tried to get people to realize that solvent and a rag won’t get all of the old thermal grease of your HS. You need to lap it. This will affect your temps and contaminates every thermal grease review that uses the same HS to test all of the samples. For those of you that don’t believe, Nevin has posted an eloquent explanation here:
http://www.arcticsilver.com/thermal_interface_basics.htm
Furthermore, I would like to thank Nevin for polishing my understanding of thermal transfer. What I have learned has been a great help in squeezing more speed out of my system.
This is all well and good, but WTF are you supposed to do about your CPU? You can only lap your CPU so many times, if you dare to do so at all. I know for myself, I will not touch any Athlon/Duron processor with any sort of sand paper. I've crushed enough cores as it is already!
With this knowledge I may proceed to lap my heatsinks, rather than simply cleaning them with alcohol, but that still leaves the problem of the CPU. In the end, I guess we all need to realize that it is an imperfect world, with imperfect natural laws that we have to live by...
Nagorak (Mar 08, 2001 06:24 a.m.):
Colin (Mar 04, 2001 09:24 p.m.):
For a few weeks I have tried to get people to realize that solvent and a rag won’t get all of the old thermal grease of your HS. You need to lap it. This will affect your temps and contaminates every thermal grease review that uses the same HS to test all of the samples. For those of you that don’t believe, Nevin has posted an eloquent explanation here:
http://www.arcticsilver.com/thermal_interface_basics.htm
Furthermore, I would like to thank Nevin for polishing my understanding of thermal transfer. What I have learned has been a great help in squeezing more speed out of my system.
This is all well and good, but WTF are you supposed to do about your CPU? You can only lap your CPU so many times, if you dare to do so at all. I know for myself, I will not touch any Athlon/Duron processor with any sort of sand paper. I've crushed enough cores as it is already!
With this knowledge I may proceed to lap my heatsinks, rather than simply cleaning them with alcohol, but that still leaves the problem of the CPU. In the end, I guess we all need to realize that it is an imperfect world, with imperfect natural laws that we have to live by...
I disagree. I think that natural laws are perfect by definition. Sometimes they are inconvenient.
Metaxas
03-08-01, 11:43 PM
Nagorak (Mar 08, 2001 06:24 a.m.):
Colin (Mar 04, 2001 09:24 p.m.):
For a few weeks I have tried to get people to realize that solvent and a rag won’t get all of the old thermal grease of your HS. You need to lap it. This will affect your temps and contaminates every thermal grease review that uses the same HS to test all of the samples. For those of you that don’t believe, Nevin has posted an eloquent explanation here:
http://www.arcticsilver.com/thermal_interface_basics.htm
Furthermore, I would like to thank Nevin for polishing my understanding of thermal transfer. What I have learned has been a great help in squeezing more speed out of my system.
This is all well and good, but WTF are you supposed to do about your CPU? You can only lap your CPU so many times, if you dare to do so at all. I know for myself, I will not touch any Athlon/Duron processor with any sort of sand paper. I've crushed enough cores as it is already!
With this knowledge I may proceed to lap my heatsinks, rather than simply cleaning them with alcohol, but that still leaves the problem of the CPU. In the end, I guess we all need to realize that it is an imperfect world, with imperfect natural laws that we have to live by...
You know, you bring up really good point. I didn't even think of that. I guess you could only lap your stuff a certain number of times. hmmmm... that could get ugly. :) I believe that there has to be a "chemical" solution, like some of that flux gone from alliedelectronics. That's what I think i'm going to go with, hell its only 6 dollars for a can, and I can pick up some other small needed stuff while i'm there, to justify the shipping...
Remington
03-09-01, 12:15 AM
I'm new to this, what care needs to be taken regarding contact with the bridges, die, ect... when clening using these solvents, I've just always used papertowel, but can never get it clean. Can you just wipe the whole top of with the solvent and not ruin the chip? As you can see I'm a little perinoid about ruining the T-Bird.
Thanks Guys! Run-Em Cool!
The solvents won’t hurt the chip. As for lapping, do it once, apply Artic Silver and don’t worry about it. You will have to lap the chip again to get the Artic Silver off. I lapped my chip until the AMD was barely visible. If I needed to lap it again, just in case Nevin pulls a rabbit out of his hat, I think there is a little more room. By that time I am sure I will have another chip anyway.
The Faceless Rebel
03-09-01, 06:08 PM
This whole lapping thing sound dangerous. Anyone every tried the Soft Scrub cleaner? God knows everyone probably has at least 1 bottle of that stuff lying around somewhere. And should I use like a cotton cloth or what?
I've only lapped once before....only out of necessity..the cpu & heatsink didn't connect properly and you could see the gaps between hs & cpu...
The toliet bowl cleaner idea sounds good...another thing to try : Scrub Free Soap Scum Remover...it dissolves damn near anything.
btw...good article :)
CoopertownBob
03-12-01, 04:59 PM
Like I said in another category, I just use turpentine and an old tube sock. Cleans just fine. I count on the microscopic porosity to hold the thermal grease in place so it can do its job. No lapping on the proc, only the HS.
BTW, after honing the HS down with a couple fine stones (300, then 600), I switch to jewler's rouge for a final polish. For those with the necessary power tools, you could use automotive valve grinding compound then switch to the rouge, but this requires three different poloshing wheels dedicated to the purpose in order to do it right.
Calistograph
03-14-01, 08:21 PM
MEK (Methyl Ethyl Ketone) will clean anything off. **** is nasty.
plane old rubbing alc will do it
celly 566@986 it aint no p3 but for 60 bucks lol
Nagorak
03-15-01, 07:11 AM
Please make your logo image smaller CooperTown Bob, you're screwing up all the formatting!
Lucky,
That is exactly the point of the article, rubbing alcohol and a rag only cleans off the visible material. It cannot remove the material from the microscopic pores in the metal. The heatsink only "looks" clean to the naked eye. At the microscopic level, it is still massively contaminated. This is why the FBI lab can find human blood on a knife even if it has been cleaned and scrubbed and washed 100 times.
To really understand the difficulty removing thermal grease, you have to look at the world at a microscopic level. A level where over 300 micronized silver particles would have to be stacked on top of each other to reach a height of 1/1000 of an inch. A level where trying to clean the grease out of the pores in the metal with a rag or paper towel is like trying to clean grease out of a coffee cup with the trunk of an oak tree. When the finest fibers on the rag or paper towel are 100 times larger than the pores, there is no way they can get into the pores to clean.
Nevin
This ir rather like beating a dead horse, since I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but don't you think the molecules of the oil carrier for the silver solids are smaller than the solids? That being the case, wouldn't they be the more likely component to be filling those pores? When you apply a fresh coat of AS, the same oil would again fill those pores. So, what is the harm in leaving the old oil in those pores? At some point there simply has to be a diminishing return syndrome when cleaning the HS.
Hoot
Snuffleuppigus
03-15-01, 10:22 AM
funny... i think the tric .1.1.1 (tricholflorethane)has done the trick...
I used the ENGINE DEGREASER I had in the garage (you can find it at the grocery store) to remove the old thermal pad from my FOP32-1 and it worked great. Then I cleaned it with rubbing alcohol & a lint-free cloth (had one with my old glasses) put a little Arctic Silver2 on CPU, smoothed it out with a credit card so I had a very thin even surface, and mounted the FOP32-1 back on my 1.1GHz TBird. Job done and running well at 1.33GHz.
I like overclocking but that lapping stuff didn't appeal to me because I didn't have the sandpaper, didn't want to spend the time to do it, and felt the work above got me 80% of the way there.
My guess is that the ENGINE DEGREASER would do a good job on thermal grease as well.
Hinge out
TriChlorEthylene is the one to beat, but it's hard to find since it;s on the naughty chemical list. TriChlorEthane comes close, but if you can find a solvent with a little Methylene Chloride in it, (also on the naughty chem list) you will fare better. It attacks many plactics, so use care. Brake Degreaser is an excellent, readily available solvent for these kinds of jobs.
Hoot
MEfreak
03-15-01, 11:45 PM
For all of those who think that a rag and solvent won't clean off all the compound, listen up! Metal is NOT porous enough to absorb ANY of the thermal compound into the matrix. The only metals that can absorb are Powder Metallurgy metals, which are sintered powder particles that leave pores inside the metal matrix. This is the process that is used to make oil impregnated parts. Heatsinks and cores are NOT powder metallurgy parts; they cannot absorb thermal compound, or the oil in it. The only compound left will be residue in the *macroscopic* valleys left when sanding. The valleys will be only as deep as the finest sandpaper you used. They are regularly spaced and of even depth (NOT LIKE THE ARTICLE PICTURE). If you just scrape off the old compound, then you will have the old stuff still in the valleys. But when using a solvent, the solvent actively dissolves the compound, even the compound in the valleys. The rag does not scrape the compound out of the valleys, it absorbes it out, carrying all of the dissolved thermal compound with it. The referenced article is for a semi rigid object being used to *scrape* the compound out of the heatsink, not for a solvent situation!
Furthermore, the valleys are so small and shallow, I would guess that 90% of the old compound can be wiped off due to the flexibility fo the rag fibers and their small size WRT the valley size.
Again, the referenced article does not apply to 1) lapped metal 2) rags and solvent being used. I don't see how you can use it to invalidate the rag+solvent method of removing thermal compound. Its comparing apples and oranges.
Metaxas
03-16-01, 06:36 AM
Well, I guess that ended this debate. ;D Heehee...
MEfreak,
Four points.
1. The abrasive particles on any grade of sandpaper are not all uniform in size. There will be a maximum size, but many of the particles will be 1/2, 1/4 or even only 1/8 that size. Thus the "Groves" in the bottom of the heatsink will not all be uniform when viewed under a microscope.
2. Very few solvents actually dissolve silicone oils or polyol esters, the two most common fluids used in thermal greases. (Thermal pads are paraffin wax based.) Most people and hardware testers clean their heatsinks with isopropyl alcohol, which dissolves neither silicone oil nor polyol ester.
3. Even fewer solvents dissolve zinc oxide, aluminum oxide, aluminum, or silver; the thermally conductive particles actually used in thermal compounds.
4. The finest fibers on the best cleaning cloth are 15 to 30 microns in diameter. The finest fibers on paper towels are 30 to 60 microns in diameter. The valleys in the heatsink are as small as 3 microns in diameter. It is a very tight fit.
I agree that with solvents that are unavailable to most people and special cleaning cloths that very few people have, that you could probably get 90% of the old thermal grease off. But read the posts in a variety of forums and look at a few thermal grease comparisons on hardware sites. The most common cleaning method is a paper towel with about 1/3 of the people using it dry, 1/3 using isopropyl alcohol, and 1/3 using acetone, WD40 or lighter fluid. Almost all of the comparisons or tests are on stock unlapped heatsinks. Can you estimate how much of the old thermal grease or melted thermal pad these people are getting off of their heatsinks and the validity of their thermal interface comparisons?
Nevin
dimmreaper
03-16-01, 08:32 AM
Nevin-
When I mix toilet bowl cleaner and zincoxcide based thermal compound it bubbles and pops and fizzes. Do you think this reaction is taking place because of zincoxcide or the silicone. I'm just curious. How much more/less effective do you think acid based solvents are in comparison to non-acidic alcohol or degreaser based solvents?
The Faceless Rebel
03-16-01, 08:05 PM
You know what?? This is ridiculous. If you're that obsessed with cooling, just say screw aircooling altogether and use a water cooler or Peltier setup. It's ridiculous to spend more on industrial strength solvent and sandpapers than a frickin water-cooler!
I'm just gonna say screw it, put on isopropyl rubbing alcohol on a paper towel and hope for the best. It's not as if a Celeron dissipates that much energy anyways.
I just use 90%+ Isopropyl alcohol and it gets most of it off. If you say you have to lap the heat sink, then how is the core of the cpu or GPU or whatevr any diff. It to has micoscopic pits that could hold the old thermo grease right? So you would have to lap them too.
I use a Alpha p3125 for cooling my p3 700 @ 1120 and get full load temp in the low 30s. So to me the gain of a couple degrees f. isnt worth lapping everthing. Are people having some major temp problems from not lapping when appling a new thermo compound? Guess I havent seen anyone complaining but dont really keep up onthe cooling seen.
William
04-11-01, 08:57 PM
hmm, i have used 1-1-1 trichloroethane. Works really well, but i think i will lap between applications of goop. good post!
The masterless newbie
04-12-01, 03:58 AM
dimmreaper (Mar 16, 2001 08:32 a.m.):
Nevin-
When I mix toilet bowl cleaner and zincoxcide based thermal compound it bubbles and pops and fizzes. Do you think this reaction is taking place because of zincoxcide or the silicone. I'm just curious. How much more/less effective do you think acid based solvents are in comparison to non-acidic alcohol or degreaser based solvents?
I 'd think it's the zincoxide. Silicone isn't as reactive as zincoxide. Silicone is used to make glass, which is used widely in laboratories because of its chemical inertness (is that a word?). Besides, breaking the bonds between zinc and oxygen would probably evolve oxygen gas. Even if the silicone was polyatomic, splitting that molecule would probably give you solids, thus no fizzing would occur. This is especially so since toilet bowl cleaner is probably basic, since most cleaning chemicals are. (Just an assumption.) I don't think silicone would dissolve under non-acidic conditions. Ok.. enough of my nerdy science rant...
-RoninX74
asmodean
04-12-01, 04:47 AM
Why don't you guys try mixing HCl with HNO3 in 3:1? That will dissolve almost anything, including gold.
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2012, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.