Heres the Deal, Copper Or Aluminum

[JFettig]

Ok heres the deal. I'm gonna get some metal soon, copper or aluminum... Heres the other deal, a good waterblock will perform the same in Aluminum as in Copper.... Here's another thing aluminum is cheaper, aluminum is a ton easier to machine you wont have corosion if you use waterwetter and proper corosion prevention

Heres what I'm plannin on doing, I plan on making custom blocks(to an extent till i get my mill) and sell them, then raise money to buy my mill i need 300-500bucks THEN ill make ultra nice blocks!

So what I want to know is if you peeps would still buy them if they were aluminum vs copper.... Like If you would refrain from buying them or anything, Im gonna order the metal prob monday or so... they are gonna be sealed by solder(aluminum solder) or a gasket and screwed together, and I can make them the rite sizes for your mounting....


Thank You

[Nico3k]

hmmm... i dont know about the aluminum. since i personally have not seen any aluminum blocks before, I would go with the copper.
all the waterblock makers must have a reason for not choosing aluminum

i think most of the people who buy new waterblocks nowadays are ppl who are just getting into watercooling, and they go with what most of the other people have. since most people have copper blocks, i think you would get more business if you made them copper. but you never know...

[JFettig]

the reason they make them copper is cuz "copper is better" so they think
fixittt (creater or spir@l)made a copper and aluminum block, exactly the same(spir@l block) performed EXACTLY the same! the only reason they make it copper is so they can sell them better, cuz who wants a aluminum block when copper is "better"

that is why i say this copper is 2x the pric 10x more difficult to machine....

[athlonnerd]

copper also looks sooo nice, when its polished and lapped. personally, i wouldnt buy a block from ne body, making it is half th fun, but if you can convince peeps that aluminum is sufficinet, then i think youd be in buisness,other than that it'd be illegal, caue youd have to declare it as a soutrce of income, adn pay sales tax and all.

[JFettig]

what would be illegal??? and it is basicly that aluminum will perform the same or very close to copper.....
i wouldnt buy a block from anyone either, i love making them!!! thats why im gonna offer to make them for the community of overclockers and all but i still need to know if poeople will buy aluminum blocks!

[nikhsub1]

Originally posted by maskedgeek
the reason they make them copper is cuz "copper is better" so they think
fixittt (creater or spir@l)made a copper and aluminum block, exactly the same(spir@l block) performed EXACTLY the same! the only reason they make it copper is so they can sell them better, cuz who wants a aluminum block when copper is "better"

that is why i say this copper is 2x the pric 10x more difficult to machine....
Masked I was just gonna say EXACTLY what you just said about fixitt - The biggest hurdle will be convincing people that it performs as well as copper, you would need Hoot or someone to test it against other blocks for people to believe. A good block is a good block, aluminum or copper, makes no diff to me:D

[JFettig]

Originally posted by nikhsub1

Masked I was just gonna say EXACTLY what you just said about fixitt - The biggest hurdle will be convincing people that it performs as well as copper, you would need Hoot or someone to test it against other blocks for people to believe. A good block is a good block, aluminum or copper, makes no diff to me:D

THANKYOU!!!! you got a great idea!!! maby ill make identical blocks and send them over to hoot, or contact fixittt and talk to him about sending Hoot those blocks.... or maby i could do it, for me and for my site....

[nikhsub1]

Originally posted by maskedgeek


THANKYOU!!!! you got a great idea!!! maby ill make identical blocks and send them over to hoot, or contact fixittt and talk to him about sending Hoot those blocks.... or maby i could do it, for me and for my site....
The one MAKING the block should never be the tester... Don't test fixitt's blocks, your not trying to sell his... Maybe I'll go in on the mill with you?:D

[JFettig]

ygpm

[glass]

i could buy aluminum one, tho i'm in finland and prolly sure will not be buying from you. i'm currently running aluminum block, with ~5c difference from water temp to the in-socket thermistor, which is pretty nice i think even tho i'm just running a duron.

and the block is a real cheapie around 22€(us$).

anyways, i used to run a copper coil+aluminum block setup, no water wetter but open bucket evap. for like ~1.5years, no corrosion but instead white stuff(i guess salts) started forming on the insides of the block..

[Neco]

I'm pretty impressed with my Unablock myself (alu).. since I've only got a house fan a few feet from my radiator (small oscillating rather) I see load temps around 50C but my room is also the hotest room in the house - and like I said I aint got a fan properly mounted on it yet.

I'm pretty sure it will perform nicely given the chance.

I can get a load temp of 45C with my A/C on...but I had to take it out for now.. doesn't drain water properly so I gotta drill holes to keep it from freezing up :mad:

[JFettig]

yeah, now its comming together,
nico: do you have a fan on your rad??? that may help :p

anyone else interested in aluminum blocks???

-edit- the white stuff is the corosion....

[Neco]

Nope :p Oscillating fan a few feet away from it like I said ^ ;)

I am planning on purchasing an enermax 120mm adjustable speed fan when I collect my paycheck and send it to the bank.

I might consider picking up two though.. I was thinking of putting my side panel under the dremel and making a hole to blow some more air into the case but am not too sure..

I don't want to mess with the case itself anymore because mounting the block for me was a real pain - and if I dremel the case I'd have to remove eveything /wash it again :(

Then I'd have to drain the system so I could disconnect the block and mount it again argh ..

So - side blowhole, suck or blow ? :p

[safemode]

the truth is copper is better at transferring heat than aluminum. This is always going to be true. It's a static feature of the element. Whether it's better than aluminum is disappointingly dependent on more than just that. It's harder to work with, meaning it can take longer to make and thus cost more money. It could also mean more inticate and possibly more efficient designs can be much more expensive in copper than aluminum and maybe not be justifiable in copper form but could be in aluminum form if that design lets it perform as well as conventional copper designs. There are more differences that need to be considered when saying one is better than the other. You have demographics you're selling your block to. If you're geared more towards the low cost minded people then aluminum makes perfect sense. You'd have to do a lot of work to sell to the performance minded people. Remember, these are the same people that get all excited about 2C differences between blocks/hsf's.

But in the end, you'll never get past the fact that copper is a better heat transfer element than aluminum. You'll just need a design that makes an aluminum block perform equal or maybe even better but be too costly to make in copper that even the performance guys couldn't justify buying it in copper for the most part. In order to sell to them, that is. Heh, good luck at that.

[JFettig]

yes copper is almost 2x better... in theory basicly, when it comes to cooling computers it doesnt make hardly a diff and when it goes thru the aloys and whatnots when you get diff aloys its not pure...
and yes 2c really doesnt matter 5c hardly matters!

[grim]

hey i will test an alluminum block against the maze3 im getting

[JFettig]

Originally posted by grim
hey i will test an alluminum block against the maze3 im getting

that wont exacly do justice... its gotta be exactly the same block, i could test it against my many copper blocks i have... but yeah they gotta be the same


Jon

[safemode]

testing a block that is exactly the same is only going to tell you what you already know about aluminum and copper.

1. aluminum is lighter so the block will be lighter.
2. aluminum is cheaper to mill and buy so it's going to be a cheaper block and you can make more of them in a given time.
3. the copper block will perform better to some degree, how much and how much that matters is subjective to much more than just the block and the person who wants to use it.

what you need is a design for your aluminum block that :
1. is too hard to mill in copper to justify buying it, rather will make the aluminum block too attractive to the majority.
2. is so efficient that it performs the same or better than the copper blocks that the majority are willing to buy, so that they dont have a reason to.
3. is cheaper than copper blocks of similar performance.

You dont need to worry about similar design, you compare the best you can do against the best the competition can do and whoever wins in the areas you're selling for, is the winner. That's all that matters.

[grim]

that was what i was thinking when i wrote my previous reply: test your aluminum block against one of the top performing blocks. if it performs around as well then people will buy it because it is cheaper.

[JFettig]

a while ago i made a aluminum and copper popcan block... the aluminum one was .18c/w the copper was .17c/w thats pretty dang close....

[Tecumseh]

maskedgeek, there is only one person who hangs out here who
could really show how well your blocks can do. Make one and
send it to BillA (assuming he will test if for you). If it compares
well with the commercial copper units, you are IN.

Al blocks should be anodized. This requires hot sulphuric acid baths.

Prove your prototypes while you are looking into all this. And
you will need a business license and tax ID at some point.

[james.miller]

this is like the 'aluminium Vs steel case' argument.yes copper is better at transfering heat - but will you really see a difference at these temperatures?
i thought that the difference was only really noticable when you got into the 100c+ temps?

please forgive my ignorance if im wrong

[JFettig]

Originally posted by james.miller
this is like the 'aluminium Vs steel case' argument.yes copper is better at transfering heat - but will you really see a difference at these temperatures?
i thought that the difference was only really noticable when you got into the 100c+ temps?

please forgive my ignorance if im wrong

your rite man, that sounds really rite


tecumseh: i dont know how far im going as of now, for now im just gonna be selling thru the classifieds and word of mouth...
yeah i should contact billa when i get these made..... he would be a good person to look to on this subject

[lemmyslender]

I would think that the only real difference (if the setups are identical, except for block material) would be how fast the temp changes.

Aluminum should show faster temp (core) changes than copper since it can't conduct heat as fast.

Once equilibrium is reached, they should be close the same temperature, I think.

[Wombat Woo]

What is your target consumer going to be?

The copper vs aluminum is probably the top concern for all out hardcore people into cooling. However if you make great block designs for transfering heat, a few celsius difference between copper and aluminum becomes questionable.

If your going for a more general/newbie person that doesn't do much research, I would think the "cool" factor would play a larger part and not think twice about if its copper or aluminum.

[JFettig]

target consumer=anyone who wants custom or low priced waterblocks
im gonna get ahold of hoot and see if he wants to do a aluminum to copper comparison, basicly cuz he has the setup and the reliability and reputation, he did the copper one that i already made, he did that a while ago,

the deal is that aluminum
costs half as much
is lighter
is MUCH easier to machine
it will corode if in the rong conditions
performs close to the same as copper

copper is
hard to machine cince it is so dence
its really heavy
it performs really good, a little better than aluminum,
it doesnt corode

i can see how copper is a choice material for the consumer and all... but aluminum isnt much diff if you give it the correct conditions... and its a chunk cheaper all around

[chuckerants]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as I have the corrosion taken care of, I wouldn;t mind Aluminum.

I think it would help if somone like Hoot did a test to alleviate people's fears that Alumiminum is not as good as Copper.

Even though Copper is a better heat conductor, I don't think it would have too much effect on what we're using it for.

[JFettig]

yes im planning on contacting hoot about this, and yes your now thinking it wont be an effect for the application we are using it for,

have you seen hoot around lately?

[chuckerants]

No. I was just thinking that Hoot hasn't posted in a while.

[JFettig]

i emailed him, i hope to get a responce soon..

[EgeWorks]

I always make my own blocks(practically anything I can make I do, but anyway). My latest is out of Al and it works beautifully, and the most high tech piece of equip I used to make it was an electric drill. So if I was gonna buy one and the Al one was cheaper, I'd go for it.

BTW- Anodizing is cool, you can make it practically any color you like - could be a selling point :)

Good luck with your business - I wouldn't mind a mill myself.

[JFettig]

got any pics or links to that block? if you dont have any links, you can post in the gallery on my site... (WWW)

yes i like the whole color thing... i need to find a place to anodize these...

[EgeWorks]

Here is a link to it

http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=115218

It has a nice O-ring on it now though instead of that crappy gasket.

-edit- if you want some better pics I'll post on your site.