nVidia to crush ATI?

[Penguin4x4]

No, I am neather nVidiot nor fanATIc, but I just thought about somethin today.

Most of all remember the bitter battles between nVidia and 3Dfx,(I don't, of course,:D). Anyway, when it first started out in 1997, 3Dfx was the stuff to buy, right? Then nVidia came along for competition. It's a little grey area for me here, :rolleyes: but then nVidia brought about the "new card every 6 months" thing. 3Dfx couldn't handle the R&D nor manufacturing aspects of a new chipset every 6 months, and began to slide. And slide. Until finally they ran out of funds and were bought out by nVidia. Am I correct so far?

Now, ATI comes along, and a lot of people like their cards and chipsets, yet nVidia still were faster and "benched better". Now, fast forward to the release of the 8500/GeForce 3. The 8500 outlasted the GeForce 3, as it was replaced by the Ti500 and, currently, the GeForce 4 series. Now, to conserve resources(my belief), they R&D the R300 to death, and let nVidia have Summer 2002 profits. Then they release the 9700, now it's the card to have. If you leaf through the wallows of reports, it seems that nVidia began to tape out the NV30 only after the 9700's release. Now that Matrox, 3DLabs, and ATI, nVidia's major opponents, have spilled there guts about chipset architectures and the like, nVidia is in the perfect position to crush all comers because, #1, they realize what there opponents have, and have plenty of time to devise a crushing counter strike, and #2, they know what they'll need to get to consumers. Many say they want the Parhelia because of its Fragmented AA, which offers very little performance drops in gaming, yet lets you have all the candy. IMHO, when nVidia does drop the NV30, it'll be a "have your cake and eat it too" card for Joe Blow. I wouldn't mind it being released next spring, as that leaves enough room to double, hell maybe triple, the performance and features of its competitors, this may, in fact, be the next Voodoo 2 SL1!!!



Or it may just wind up nVidia falling far enough to make Enron seem like a Lego tower,

Peace and chicken grease all, :D:D

[xbiker321]

Very True, all eyes are on nVidia now :eek: to see what there big move will be

[rlemieux]

Im waiting, because it is the next video card I will look seriously into buying.

[Wolfmist]

Nvidia is poised to make a big comeback, but we won't really know until we get some real numbers about the nv30. While one could compare the situation of 3dfx ---> nvidia against the nvidia ----> ATI, theres are big differences. For one nvidia is a smart company where as 3dfx was not. They only have manufacturers make cards based on their chip. 3dfx used to do this until someone came up with the horrible idea to make their own cards. That along with other poor decisions and the dissapointing v5 5500. I was burnt by that one. I was a 3dfx fan while my friends were telling me about how great the geforce and TnL was. I kept saying that the 5500 was gonna rock. The only thing it rocked was the money out of my hand (and the AA). If they had been able to do well with that, they might still be around.

Now we have Nvidia who is a very competant company but who has something which has not come out yet which is supposed to blow everything away.

But in the other corner there's ATI who has just released a killer graphics card that is out. They are now letting other companies manufacture cards based on their chip, and they seem to have things covered for a while.

Nvidia needs to have the NV30 rock or they might not be the leader for graphics cards. I personally think they will pull it off, but then again I thought 3dfx was going to as well. At any rate I'm planning on buying it, as well as sticking with AMD and getting the Hammer.

[Overclocker456]

I don't think Matrox or 3Dlabs pose and threat to Nvidia at all. Neither company has a good card in my opinion. The big name is ATI. I think ATI will keep up with the NV30, I don't think they'll beat it though. But the Fact remains Now till January 2003, The Radeon 9700 Pro is the Best card period, and Nvidia can't do anything about it.

[MospeadasDark]

NV doesn't release a new chipset every 6 months. Just revise the old one, give it a new name and put it out as a new product.

GF2
6months later
GF Ultra
6months later
GF3
6months later
GF3 Ultra (Ti 500)
6months later
GF3.5 (GF4)

[rlemieux]

Well Nvidia is due to release the revised versions on the G4 ie the NV28

It will be the MX420 and MX460, Ti4200 and Ti4600 with 8x support. Also the MX440 and Ti4400 will be discontinued(even the original 4x card) due to slow sales.

[Maxvla]

interesting thread... :)

glad i picked up a 4400 while they are still around. i love my card :D

[steveyboy]

nvidia doesnt need to make a comeback, even with the release of the 9700 ati is still on the defensive. ati dominates the laptop business, and nvidia is starting to take market share from them in that segment. Looks to me that ati and nvidia will coexist much as amd and intel have over the past 1.5 yrs. Each topping the other in performance, and nvidia gets to play the role of intel, you know the one that makes a ton of money.

[snyper1982]

no Nvidia doesnt release a new card every 6 months, they do revise the old core, but what you forget to mention is the the new version is nearly TWICE as fast as the old one, and to me, thats fast enought to be considered a new card. thats just my opinion on the 6 month release thing.

[TUK101]

Originally posted by steveyboy
nvidia doesnt need to make a comeback, even with the release of the 9700 ati is still on the defensive. ati dominates the laptop business, and nvidia is starting to take market share from them in that segment. Looks to me that ati and nvidia will coexist much as amd and intel have over the past 1.5 yrs. Each topping the other in performance, and nvidia gets to play the role of intel, you know the one that makes a ton of money. I think that you are right. I dont see either one taking a nose dive like 3DFX did. Both have too much cash in the bank and have a plan for the future. Where as 3DFX had all thier marbles in one bag and released thier product (Voodoo 5500) months too late. 3DFX in a sense was ahead of the game, yet months behind all at the same time with thier dual processor scheme, which I think will resurface sometime down the road. But as far as Nvidia and ATI are concerned, both will be around for a long long time to come, and I would make that same comparison. ATI is much like AMD, a thorn in Nvidia's side and keeps putting out lower cost, big bang for the buck products. Good comparison IMHO.

[futura2001]

NVidia is a very good company and makes excellent cards, but I think that they have competition.
At least I hope they do!
ATI has stated that Nvidia is not a major competitor, and that they do not have the same market focuses. This is BAD!
We want lots of competition. Remember when Nvidia was trying to get a foothold back in the days of the TNT and Voodoo2? We had new cards every six months, completely new cards. Fast forwards to now. Nvidia sells their cards to the majority of people, releasing only slight variations of their cards. I agree with the masses that the GF4 is a powerful chip, but it is still a GF2 on steroids. After 3Dfx fell under the original Geforce, NVidias R&D has gone done the drain.
Hopefully with the ATI 9700, the Matrox Parhelia (although that proved to be a disappointment) and the 3Dlabs P10 will force Nvidia to get their act together.
As it seems right now, it appears that the 3Dlabs P10 is the only major competitor left that hasn't been released. The 9700 is out, but it is still not overwhelmingly faster than the Ti4600. The Parhelia is out, but it is a joke. And a vastly overpriced joke at that. So only 3Dlabs is out, but they may be the best competitor we could hope for. 3Dlabs produced the most powerful, complex graphics cards on the planet. In the Workstation market, neither ATI or Nvidia can touch 3Dlabs. 3Dlabs has the most experience of any company, producing single TeraOps chips far before any other chip maker. Although they focus on Workstation cards right now, they very well could make perhaps the best graphics card that a consumer could buy this christmas.
And we should all hope that they do, even if you are an Nvidiot. That will force Nvidia to get off their lazy asses and start churning out the cards again. Competition is good, it forces development of new technology, and I think we can all agree that Nvidia needs an impetus to get some new technology out there...
Futura

[MospeadasDark]

Originally posted by snyper1982
but what you forget to mention is the the new version is nearly TWICE as fast as the old one, and to me, thats fast enought to be considered a new card. thats just my opinion on the 6 month release thing.

The GF2 Ultra is not twice as fast as the GF2.

The GF3 Ti500 is not twice as fast as the GF3.

The GF4 Ti4600 is not twice as fast as the GF3Ti500.

At most, 30%(being very generous here). 30% is not 200%

[Wommalong]

What you say is 'True' but for how long will it go on?:confused:

[Penguin4x4]

Originally posted by MospeadasDark


The GF2 Ultra is not twice as fast as the GF2.

Correct, only 25MHz
Originally posted by MospeadasDark


The GF3 Ti500 is not twice as fast as the GF3.

Correct, only 40MHz
Originally posted by MospeadasDark


The GF4 Ti4600 is not twice as fast as the GF3Ti500.

Correct, only 60MHz

http://users.erols.com/chare/video.htm

Memory speeds are are pretty much the same story.

[TK421]

At most, 30%(being very generous here). 30% is not 200%
you mean 100% right? twice as fast would only be 100% faster, but I do get your point nevertheless.

I agree with the masses that the GF4 is a powerful chip, but it is still a GF2 on steroids.
The GF4 MX's could be classified as such but their performance is far from "powerful", the Ti's however, despite being an updated core in any sense, is not just a GF2 on crack/steroids, they're more like a GF3.

I keep seeing everyone talk about how nvidia just revises the core and pumps out the thing on a new card and gives it a new name. Well, so what? It works pretty damn good. Did Microsoft completely rewrite windows between 95 & 98 (bad example I know)? No, was 98 still better? Perhaps not, it's debatable, but people still bought it nevertheless. I know software isn't really comparible to hardware but the theme is still the same in many respects. Nvidia has a great marketing scheme, and when they do come out with a completely new chip (not revised), I suspect they'll increase foothold. In fact, they'll shove that foot right into the front door of plenty of gamers. (Or kick ATI in the head with it =P)

[MospeadasDark]

Originally posted by TK421

you mean 100% right? twice as fast would only be 100% faster, but I do get your point nevertheless.


Yea, I was thinking "30% of, or 130%" then "200%" as in 2X when writing that. ~4:30am, blah.

[TK421]

haha, I know the feeling, I figured it was something like that ;)

[Overclocker456]

Originally posted by MospeadasDark


The GF2 Ultra is not twice as fast as the GF2.

The GF3 Ti500 is not twice as fast as the GF3.

The GF4 Ti4600 is not twice as fast as the GF3Ti500.

At most, 30%(being very generous here). 30% is not 200%

My friend, I wouldn't have said that better myself. gotta love comments based on facts ;)

200%..lol

[MospeadasDark]

Originally posted by Overclocker456


My friend, I wouldn't have said that better myself. gotta love comments based on facts ;)

200%..lol

Amazing how marketing can affect the masses.

[Jawsome]

Kryo is on the rebound guys! HAHA J/k but no seriously, I wanna see benchmarks for the new trident cards.

[cruc1fy]

Originally posted by Overclocker456
I don't think Matrox or 3Dlabs... Neither company has a good card in my opinion.

Obviously you've never had the privledge of running CAM/CAM programs on a 3DLabs Wildcat.
My workstation here at the office has a Wildcat III 6210 in it, and it blows away any other card made... hand down.

Maybe you are right on the consumer gaming card level, but to say that 3DLabs doesn't have a good card is rediculous.

[Penguin4x4]

Originally posted by Overclocker456
I don't think Matrox or 3Dlabs pose and threat to Nvidia at all. Neither company has a good card in my opinion.

In terms of pure speed, probably not. BUT, what I am saying is that nVidia made a brilliant move here. They waited for there competitors to show there cards. 3DLabs with there fully progammable VPU, and Matrox, with triple monitor and 10 bit gigacolor. I wouldn't be surprised if the NV30 came out with a 600MHz GPU, 10+ bit per primary, and 1.5ns DDRII RAM. Ya never know, :D:D:D:D

[PhobMX]

Originally posted by Penguin4x4


In terms of pure speed, probably not. BUT, what I am saying is that nVidia made a brilliant move here. They waited for there competitors to show there cards. 3DLabs with there fully progammable VPU, and Matrox, with triple monitor and 10 bit gigacolor. I wouldn't be surprised if the NV30 came out with a 600MHz GPU, 10+ bit per primary, and 1.5ns DDRII RAM. Ya never know, :D:D:D:D

lets hope it wont cost more than $400 or they are screwed... ;)

[Yodums]

Originally posted by PhobMX


lets hope it wont cost more than $400 or they are screwed... ;)

Parhelia is only 350.00 and you get a 20-30.00 discount for filling out a form on your opinion about them. I don't think people should be complaining about price when you see lots of people buying Ti4600 when they just got out at 350.00 as well.

Surely if I had the cash I would grab a Parhelia myself.

[rlemieux]

I thought about buying one. I love Matrox, they are a super company. But I just dont want to pay 300+ for a graphics card right now.

[Cowboy X]

Originally posted by Penguin4x4


In terms of pure speed, probably not. BUT, what I am saying is that nVidia made a brilliant move here. They waited for there competitors to show there cards. 3DLabs with there fully progammable VPU, and Matrox, with triple monitor and 10 bit gigacolor. I wouldn't be surprised if the NV30 came out with a 600MHz GPU, 10+ bit per primary, and 1.5ns DDRII RAM. Ya never know, :D:D:D:D

This gives Nvidia a little too much credit . They slipped up and now will have to spend Aug 2002 to Dec 2002 in second place . Even if NV30 mauls the current 9700 Pro ATI can easily send up the clock speed and put on DDR 2 . I've not even mentioned the .13 micron R350 plans which are almost as unknown as the NV 30 .

I'm geting a 9700 Pro if i can . It will be the fastest card til at least Dec ...... more if Nvidia slips up or makes a paper launch ( I expect an initial paper launch to boost stock and hurt ATI ) . It will run all of today's games well , games around the corner ( eg Ut2003 ) well and even Doom 3 a next gen game ! The NV30 could get 1000 fps in Q3 ......... so what , if I worry about that I'd never buy a new vcard .
The 9700 will be enough for me for a while , simple !

[SemiCycle]

Hum, did you guys miss the P10 benchmarks that were released over a month ago? It hung with the Ti4600 through most of them. In the professional stuff, it won most tests......If I'm right, this was done on beta drivers too. I found this first site, but I'm looking for the other site I saw ........it is more in depth

http://www.amazoninternational.com/html/benchmarks/multiple/wildcatVP/wildcatVP.asp

BTW, I really don't agree with the statment that since Nvidia has seen what it's competitors has to offer, that it has the upper hand. They have been working on this new chip for a very long time. They can't just go back to the drawing board and redo it if it can't match 9700 speeds. It is very tough to change one part of a GPU or CPU without having to tweak many other parts of the chip. So If Nvidia drops the ball and the card doesn't perform, you will see nvidia do one or all of the following

1) point out what is wrong with the 9700 and other cards, or point out what it's competitors can't do.
2) tweak the card for benchmarks.....40.01 drivers anyone?
3) make all the press releases stress the "features" of the card instead or its performance like they normally do.
4) release an updated version (tweaked core) very quickly...like FEB

Don't get me wrong, I'm no Nvidia hater, but it is nice to see their back to the wall.....It hasn't been there since they almost went bankrupt after the NV1.

[Penguin4x4]

Originally posted by slipknot
BTW, I really don't agree with the statment that since Nvidia has seen what it's competitors has to offer, that it has the upper hand.

But they didn't being taping out the NV30 until after the 9700 was released. Just kinda late night idea mostly, :beer:

[Gregory_WE]

I'm geting a 9700 Pro if i can . It will be the fastest card til at least Dec ...... more if Nvidia slips up or makes a paper launch ( I expect an initial paper launch to boost stock and hurt ATI ) . It will run all of today's games well , games around the corner ( eg Ut2003 ) well and even Doom 3 a next gen game ! The NV30 could get 1000 fps in Q3 ......... so what , if I worry about that I'd never buy a new vcard .

Same with my Ti4600, and it was cheaper too :P

[SkaGoatMaster]

I like how the small Canadian Companies (ATI, Matrox) are both competing with the large American companies (3DLabs, nvidia) with a weaker dollar, and a smaller work force to choose from.

[rlemieux]

I just like that there is competition driving prices down. Look what AMD has done for prices of CPU's. You can buy a 2.26 for 200bucks! a 2.53 for 240bucks! You see video cards doing the same thing. You can get a Ti4600 for around 230.00! A month ago 280.00 was a great price. And in the next month or so they will go under 200.00.

People are actually building kick **s systems for around 600-700bucks. Thats awesome!

[Cowboy X]

Originally posted by Gregory_WE


Same with my Ti4600, and it was cheaper too :P

If you consider the ATI list price . Within this month many online sites will be offering the card for less than $350 . Several already do , my almost cancelled gamestop order is for $319.00

I dunno what deal you got on your 4600 , but if you bought it close to when it was released I doubt it cost less than $330

The 4600 ruled from around April to Aug , this 9700 will likely rule from Aug to Dec ( even though the 4800 will eat into the lead ) . It is about even , anyone who bought the 4600 early has a card that will do well into next yr . Likewise with the 9700 Pro .

[Check-X]

One BIG reason why 3DFX dies was because they would not license out other manufacturers to make their cards, therefore lacked support for their GLIDE API, many of you may remember how much better Q2 played in GLIDE than OpenGL and D3D, GLIDE was godly! BUT without anyone making GLIDE based games, the move was to OpenGL and D3D only... leaving 3DFX cards to patheticly render D3D games at a horrible performance hit. WickedGL helped for OpenGL gaming but it was a hassle that shouldn't have been. 3DFX's technology was very good, going with dual GPU's, motion blurring and such.

NV30 is suppose to have many of the 3DFX R&D men working with it, and it will also have NVblur, which is backwards compatible with GLIDE games.. NO MORE GLIDE WRAPPER NEEDED! While I wouldn't call myself an nVidia fan, even though I have a GF3Ti500.. I'm glad they are finally ustilizing some of their 3DFX assets! ATI is well on top of things now days, and by the time the NV30 hits the Radeon 9700 will be hitting the 0.13 micron fabrication and should be getting a very good speed boost. That combined with ATI's KNOWN video editing/viewing benifits over nVidia, I know what card I'm looking forward to most... the Radeon 9700(or 10000) All In Wonder (0.13 Micron) will be a VERY VERY nice card.

[MospeadasDark]

Originally posted by SkaGoatMaster
I like how the small Canadian Companies (ATI, Matrox) are both competing with the large American companies (3DLabs, nvidia) with a weaker dollar, and a smaller work force to choose from.

ATi is pretty big. NV is pretty big. Both Matrox and 3Dlabs are smaller in comparison.

[MospeadasDark]

Originally posted by Penguin4x4
I wouldn't be surprised if the NV30 came out with a 600MHz GPU, 10+ bit per primary, and 1.5ns DDRII RAM. Ya never know, :D:D:D:D

Not any bit likely. DDRII has just started sampling. 600MHz GPU would be *overkill* for the AGP slot. AGP3.0 doesn't give more than 4W to the current limit. The R300 is using the molex connector just to get to 300mhz. The molex connector is, BTW, the worst possible solution to get extra power. Using a PCI slot isn't much better either.

As for 10-bit per primary..NV isn't going to bother. They have nearly no market presence in medical labs(which are prolly the only places with money to afford that kind of monitor.)

Higher colour precision, yes. Higher output, no.