Some responses to my Cohesive Air Cooling Article

[Hoot]

Hi Gang;
I've gotten some emails regarding my single blower cooling solution ( http://www.overclockers.com/tips461/ ) and I thought it would be good to share them with you all.
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Could you mount that centrifigal fan to the rear fan case opening and duct airflow over the heatsink? This would allow you to use the stock case side cover and hang the big fan out the back, keeping the case upright.

Thanks for the email Anthony. Actually, the only reason I didn't use the stock cover was because I wanted to make sure my idea would work before I cut a hole in my cover. I have since cut my cover and installed the blower on it. It actually looks nice, at least to me. The rear fan opening, at least on my mid-tower case is positioned above the heatsink and with the exhaust from the blower being so straight, the majority of the air would blow over the top of the heatsink. Perhaps some deflecting device could redirect the air downward into the heatsink, but then you impart a lot of turbulence to the airflow pattern and lose the cohesiveness.
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WOW! ... THAT WAS SOME GREAT READING ... THANKS

Your welcome Marcin. It was fun experimenting on it.
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Hello,
I read your article on overclockers.com and your use of a centrifugal blower to cool your computer. I went to grainger.com to try to find the fan but I could not. If you could please send me a model number or direct link, I would really appreciate it. Thank you.

Your welcome Jeff. The blower is made by Dayton and the part number is 2C646A
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Just read your PC cooling article - what a project and
well done. I have used the following from PC power &
cooling and got pretty good results (25F improvement)
and did'nt have to do as much surgery !

Keep up the good work !

http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/cooling/system/index.htm

Thanks for the tip Bbp98
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Thanks for the great article on cooling. I haven't laughed this hard in a long time. You did a great job describing your trials.

Thanks for the feedback Dennis.
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Since I wrote the article, I have increased the effectiveness even more by placing a duct directly below the fan opening in the cover. It extends down to and stops just above the top of my heatsink. The duct is 3 inch square aluminum tubing 1/8 inch wall that I got from the local Aluminum supply house. It helps maintain the concentration of airflow until it can hit the heatsink. It also reduced the sound of the rushing air (not an unpleasing sound) a little bit. It reduces the thru-case flow a little bit, but the system temp is still the same as room temp.
If you go with this setup and choose 7V as your operating voltage for the blower, do not use the old trick of placing the plus lead on the system +12 and the minus lead on the system +5. The low impedance of the motor looks like a short circuit until it spins up and when you fire up your PC, the PSU will shut down immediately, thinking something is shorted. I would be glad to answer any other questions about the article. Post an inquiry here, in the cooling section, so all can benefit from it. Check out my new speed in the signature!

Hoot

[Hoot]

Another email with a good question.
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I really enjoyed your article on the cfgl blower fan.
I have 2 Nider "squirrel cage fans in my tower case mounted on a piece of acrylic which sits behind closer to the front of the case) the motherboard. Its screwed into the case on those little metal square brackets that the mb sits on (Addtronics 7896 case). Air comes in through the front of the case (3 fans) and is then accelerated by the 2 blowers across the entire mb, thus cooling it. The system temp is around 25C. But my cpu temp is 37C with both case side panels on (34-35C with one off). Your method sounds ideal to cool the CPU further. Mounting it on the side panel with some anti-vibration pads may work. (similar to what you've done). I think MDF or plywood or dense plastic or rubber is probably enough. Your thought would be appreciated. I'm sure you've had time to think about "tweaking" your design. Thanks for the great tip.
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Thanks for the input Joe and I looked at those Nidecs a month or so ago, when I was pondering this approach. The total cfm was a bit low for my idea of a single blower solution, but I like what you've done with them to enhance case circulation. Yes, when I moved the blower from the 3/4 inch particle board, to the sheet metal cover, there was definitely an increase in tympanic effect (drum head). The thin metal propagates a low frequency rumble. Though not bad to start with, I reduced it to almost inaudible with some 1/4 inch square aluminum rod attached to the inside of the cover in an X pattern, with a thin strip of rubber gasket material between the rods and the cover. Rubber dampening pads glued to the inside of the cover is an excellent idea also. I have some of that stuff. Kind of an orangish, 1/4 inch thick, high density rubber. I think it is silicone based, but not sure. Glad you enjoyed the article

Hoot

[Slake]

Great article Hoot. From your description of the noise, it seems like a good way to reduce system noise and improve temps at the same time. My Celeron 600 is cooled by a 7000+ rpm 60MM that is loud enough. But add to that a Sunon 120 and the 2COOLPC +, a 92mm exhaust a slot cooler and a 60mm sucking the drives heat... well you can imagine. It sounds like an old fashioned drink cooler on a 100 degree day. Since my system is located in the living room, noise reduction would win kudos from the wife and kids. If you come up with a solution for the "squeak" please let us know.

[Hoot]

I should have mentioned that the squeak is a non-issue now. Once the brushes got broken in, it is all but inaudible sitting two feet from me. Interestingly enough, I found the squeak was being propagated out of the motor housing by the two power leads. I know that sounds weird, but by repositioning the leads, which pass through a rubber grommet in the motor housing, along with the brush break-in, you have to listen for the sound to notice it is there.

Hoot

[TT120]

Great article Hoot, I am now thinking about getting something like that to blow through my radiator and case to improve airflow.

[Taipan]

Nice Article Hoot, now when u gonna get that new case :)

[Hoot]

TT120
It would almost be a waste of money to only use it for cooling your radiator. One of the justifications for the cost was the fact that this one blower could replace all the fans, including the HSF. I'm sure it will perform well as a radiator cooler though.

Taipan
Not sure when, or even if I will make the move to a full tower yet. For my hardware compliment, the mid-tower has been a good compromise so far.

Some more emails
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I really like that centrifugal blower idea! I am gonna buy one from grainger online and see how I can get it to work. I am gonna try to integrate it somehow so it is somewhat inside the case instead of this big unit just sticking right out of the case. Will the blower work the same as far as effectiveness if it blows from the inside out?

Thanks Marty. I'm not sure how it would perform under that scenario. It's so big, I can't imagine it inside a case. Something to consider is the heat the blower gives off. At full speed (12V) the motor housing is uncomfortable to touch.
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Is that a a brushed blower? If so, it's not good for your computer. It can cause electromagnetic interference and it usually has a short lifespan. Besides these quirks, you have a pretty good set-up for your system cooling. Congrats!

Thanks Fusi0n. I thought about that and brought an RF Spectrum Analyzer home to check the radiated EMI/RFI. It was in the noise floor, which was more than I can say for the RFI generated by the computer itself. As for conducted EMI/RFI, I had already put a ferrite choke on the leads, as well as a capacitor. The fact that it is located outside the case probably negates any impact upon the data cables inside. I have not experience any anomalous data corruption so far. Checking where the leads connect to the 4-pin plug from my PSU with an oscilloscope, it was pretty clean. Yes, brushed motors do have a shorter life-span than non-brushed ones. Running it at a lower speed like I am may improve that scenario. Time will tell. The brushed blower on my truck heater has run for 10 years now and I put as much time on the truck as I do on my PC. Also, my PC room environment is a lot less hostile than my trucks, given the weather here in Minnesota.
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I am working on a speed controller that utilizes an LM-338K 3-Terminal adjustable regulator. This is the hefty "Big Brother" to the LM-317. It is rated for 5A continuous service. Once finished, I will publish the results.

Hoot

[Slake]

Great work Hoot. I say we honor your cleverness and innovation by calling the Rectangular Hole cut in the case to accomadate the blowers' output the Hoot Chute.

[Hoot]

There goes your performance down the Hoot Chute :D
Good one Slake. I needed a good laugh this morning.

Hoot

[Magistrate]

Perhaps you could post some pics showing all of the electronic parts you connected to the blower - the molex, the capcitor, the ferrite choke. A little info for those who are not so electronically inclined would be nice as well :)

Also, how do you get the fan down to 5V? Can it go lower?

[Hoot]

I submitted a follow-up article that will hopefully appear in a few days. The ferrite beads and capacitor are out, due to using a 3-terminal regulator to vary the voltage driving the blower. The regulator isolates the blower side from the system side of the 12V supply. There is an enhancement to performance as well as wiring pictures. Oh yes, what it looks like in the final assembly.

Hoot

[ken257]

Very nice job! It seems that this is about as good as it gets for air cooling. Lets just hope that the next generation of AMD's don't need such extreme measures to dissapate heat.

[Hoot]

Let's have a big Amen for brother Ken! I look forward to the day when all of these extreme cooling measures are just a fond memory.

Hoot

[Magistrate]

I'm new to this site, so please forgive me if this question is stupid.

How long does it usually take for a follow up article to be posted?

[Megahurtz]

I read that article, and was quite impressed with the ingenuity of the solution. I guess that I never read the author's name, but that is quite unlike me.

Great work, and I'm impatiently awaiting the sequel.

T

[Hoot]

Magistrate (May 21, 2001 08:00 p.m.):
I'm new to this site, so please forgive me if this question is stupid.

How long does it usually take for a follow up article to be posted?

Joe has to compile it from MS Word to an HTML format. He has lots of articles, that he and other authors submit. Give him a few days and I suspect it will show up.

Hoot

[Hoot]

Part 2 is now posted to the front page:
http://www.overclockers.com/tips461/index03.asp

Hoot

[Josh]

what kind of fan filter setup is used to keep the little dust bunnies from setting up shop?

thanks,

Josh

[Hoot]

I haven't implemented a filtration system yet as I was waiting for the "dust to settle" on the project. ;D

The air intake maw has a ring around it, with retaining screws, that can be used to mount some form of filtration media. My house has an effective Electro-static air scrubber on the furnace, so I'm pretty lucky. I only dust about once every 6 months. Realistically, I will look at some different media in the next week or so.

Hoot

[Jackywebdesign]

How hot is the motor @ 7V??? and would it work if u use 5 V??? It looks like a VERY promising concept IF they could come up with a smaller fans, the current one is just too HUGE!!!

[Hoot]

It's not like the case falls over or something. ;D

At 5V, the motor housing temp is 30.1C in a room at 20C. CPU (1G/266 Tbird 10x140) temp using an FOP HS is 25C writing this message. At 7V, the motor housing temp is 30.9 and CPU is 22.6C. I'm using an FOP instead of my MC-462 right now, because I'm modding the MC-462 in the next room (workshop).

Hoot

[Jackywebdesign]

How heavy is the fan???? Please guesstimate to the nearest ounce if possible. thx.

[greycap]

Nice article; I think I'm going to have to try this concept
out. The fan used seems to have a rather high current draw (over 5 amps at 12V), and since it'll be mounted externally, wouldn't one of the 115V AC powered models be a reasonable alternative, especially if the required flow rate is less than 170 cfm and the modder in question isn't too handy with electrical circuits and the like?

I'm also (slowly) building a watercooling setup, and was trying to decide on how to cool and mount my radiator. If I had a case with fan openings in the front and rear, would mounting one of these fans to blow into the front opening and the radiator at the rear opening (so that the air being pushed out of the case would also flow through the radiator coils) be reasonable? I'll grant that, given Hoot's results, both watercooling and using the 170 cfm monster he used would be overkill, but a lower cfm version (say, 60-100cfm) would seem to me to be able to keep the internal case temps at or close to ambient and provide enough airflow to also help the radiator dump heat accumulated from the CPU. What do you guys think?

Given the power situation here in California, and the rising ambient temps, I need to get going on alternative cooling methods ASAP...

[Hoot]

You are right about using an AC version since it is outside the case. Unfortunately an AC powered equivalent costs more and you can't vary the speed to suit your use. IE slow while doing most things and fast only when doing intense 3D gaming, Engineering Modeling and Stress/Benchmark tests.

Oh yeah, it weighs close to 4 pounds. Definitely do not mount on top of your heatsink ;D

In the case of water cooling, mounting it on the front intake and the radiator, either directly in front of it or up at the exhause hole sounds like a great idea. Here is a link to the blower page at Grainger. There are all kinds of form factors and cfm, but no dBa ratings. I guess they figure if you gotta have something that powerful, noise does not matter :D

http://www.grainger.com/images/catalog/3719.GIF

Hoot

[e_storm]

can you ball park the dBa at 5 volts? From the article, it sounded like around 35 or less (sanyo fan 60mm). Reason I ask is because I want my comp to be as quiet as possible and I'm thinking about trying your setup except I was gonna get a full tower and see if I can fit the blower inside the case at the bottom front, where the intake fan normally is.

Besides, I get a pretty good deal on Grainger stuff... I work there :)

[Hoot]

Yeah, I got mine for $37.00 with my company discount. I just hooked up some different axial fans along side the blower at 5V and the closest to it is the 60mm YS-Tech 26cfm that came with my FOP-32. I mis-reported this as a Sanyo Denki in my article.

Mounting inside the case down in the bottom intake area defeats the dual purpose concept of my article. Mounted where I put it, it outperforms any available axial fan for cooling your cpu heatsink, as well as keeping the case well ventilated.

Hoot

[e_storm]

I see your point. Although in my case, as long as I have good air flow through the case, my cpu temps stay pretty low... so I really don't need the cpu cooling part of it. Besides I don't have much room on either side of my case, so I couldn't fit the blower on the exterior anyway.

Either way, this is the best low noise, high cfm solution I have seen so far. Nice job man :)

[Magistrate]

Thanks for the update, Hoot.

I'm still unclear on a couple of issues though.

Where is the ferrite choke you mentioned?

Can the blower run at less than 5V using the potentiometer you installed?

Lastly, do you think you could post more of a "how-to" for the wiring component of the project? I'm electrically challenged to say the least, so some more detailed diagrams or pictures showing how the wires hook up would be most useful. I'm sure that there are a lot of other people in the same boat as me.

[Caravan]

Are these the same as the fans for cars? Couldn't you just get one from a local auto parts shop? I think I got a replacement for my gran am for under $30

[Captain Slug]

I'm going to be putting one of these exact fans in my new completely custom full tower case. It'll be intaking air from the Left side of the case and venting it through a vinyl dryer tube (only $1 at Home Depot for an 8 foot one) directly onto the CPU.
I'm also in the process of butchering a new Toyota hub-cap that I found. It'll be the finger gaurd\filter holder of the large intake that will be on the side of my case.

Whoopee!!!

I will have and adventurous article up soon about my case too because I'll be (gasp) chopping up an MC370 for use on my graphics card.

[Hoot]

First off, I wanted to tell you all that i got an email tonight from a fellow who reproduced my setup (eerily so). He has realized a 20C improvement over his previous setup. Gave me the "warm fuzzies". ;D

I thought I mentioned in my second part to the article that I eliminated the ferrite choke as it is not needed when you run the blower off of the 3-terminal regulator. The 3TR isolates the motor from the 12V buss adequately to not need any reverse EMI filtering.

I have had my motor down as low as 4.6V, but brush motors have a sweet zone and I consider below 5V to be out of that sweet zone. No telling whether the brushes do better the slower you run the motor. Somehow, I suspect you don't want it too slow, but that's a gut feeling (non-scientific). Obviously, the bearings love running slower.

Automobiles do use centrifugal blowers, but like axial fans, they come in many form factors and speeds (cfm). Somehow, I doubt your car has a 170cfm blower on it. That, having been said, the blower does an effective job at any speed and getting an equivalent one with less cfm is just fine. Especially if it runs quieter!

I will see if I can put together a how-to-assemble tutorial on the regulator. Believe me, if you have a hand drill and can do simple soldering, it's not really much of a challenge. Certainly much easier from the labor difficulty standpoint than installing Phase 1 and 2 voltage mods on my KT7A was.

I spent the evening doing some characterizing of the performance of my setup. I spec'd the cooling capacity of my heatsink, using the stock fan compared to the Cohesive Air approach. I focused mainly on the higher wattages (calculated using radiate.exe) as that is where many decent HSFs fall down. Here's a quick comparison:

Result "A" is using my MC-462A with the stock Delta fan, a Sanyo-Denki 92x32mm 55cfm fan on the case intake and the same on the exhaust. That S-D fan is IMHO, the best form factor/noise/performance fan available for case ventilation.

Result "B" uses the Dayton 2C646A blower at 10V, the duct (in part 2 of article) and no case fans. Keep in mind, at 10V the blower noise is very close to having a window air conditioner cooling the room.

Watts---------A--------------B
98.9------.185c/w------.147c/w
94.6------.184c/w------.142c/w
91.8------.180c/w------.142c/w
87.6------.177c/w------.138c/w
83.4------.171c/w------.133c/w
80.9------.168c/w------.131c/w
76.8------.165c/w------.125c/w
72.8------.160c/w------.120c/w

While both are excellent performers for air cooling, .12c/w beats a lot of the water cooling results(problems?) I've seen posted lately. Whew, I'm beat. CUL

Hoot

[*spazzed*]

Caravan (May 25, 2001 10:00 p.m.):
Are these the same as the fans for cars? Couldn't you just get one from a local auto parts shop? I think I got a replacement for my gran am for under $30
they both are centrifugal fans........so it should work
but look for a fan that's used more commonly, like the ones for the chevy trucks.........got mine for 15 bucks canadian (plus tax) :)
you may have to make a costom casing for it to work though :(

[Magistrate]

Spazzed86, where in Canada did you purchase the $15 blower? Was it online or locally? If locally, was it in Toronto?

[Xspringe]

Hoot, would you mind adding the results for 5v too?

[Hoot]

I just got up. Everything is still set up from last night. I will do a run at +5V, but I think that voltage and speed is only appropriate for normal desktop applications, not CPU stress testing. Last nights results were using Prime95 Torture.

Hoot

[doubleu]

I just wanted to say I've been nothing short of "obsessive" with wanting to emulate this project. After a couple days worth of planning and purchasing, I have everything built and assembled (sorry for my crappy out of focus picture taking):

http://doubleu.n3.net/pic1.jpg
http://doubleu.n3.net/pic3.jpg
http://doubleu.n3.net/pic4.jpg

To sum it up, until my voltage regulator parts get here from Digikey, I'm running it at 5V off the power supply. It makes a different type of noise, but I assure you it's much quieter than the 2 80mm intake/outtake fans, plus the 23.5cfm Sunon on an Alpha PAL6035 I had been using.

I was very disappointed with the job these axial fans were doing with my new 1.33 t-bird (idle temp: 113F full load temp: 128F) so I was desperate for a new solution. My new results with the blower are: idle temps around 92F and a full load temp (prime95 for 15 minutes) of 105F. (Room temp was 71-72F during these tests.)

Thanks 'Hoot' for this excellent innovation! If anyone has any second thoughts about doing this, because of noise concerns, etc. I can assure you this thing is nowhere near the sound of a 38cfm Delta, or even a 26cfm fan for that matter; and it seems to run fine at just 5V off the computer's power supply.

[Hoot]

Xspringe (May 26, 2001 08:12 a.m.):
Hoot, would you mind adding the results for 5v too?

Okay, here's the results with lower voltages on the blower. I do not run my blower at 5V, only because it does better at 6.3V and without much increase in noise. Bear in mind, there is noise and there is noise. The biggest noise component with the blower is the sound of air rushing (not unpleasant) as opposed to the whine of the 80mm Delta 69cfm stock fan. Similar to the whine of the infamous 60mm 38cfm, but a lower frequency.

All the same, for those who wanted +5V results, I have included them as well as my personal favorite 6.3V. Here you go:

+5V Blower
Speed---Vcore---Watts---Ambient---CPU-----C/W
1500-----1.95-----94.6-----20.7C------37.3C---.175
1450-----1.85-----83.4-----20.8C------34.4C---.163
1400-----1.77-----74.8-----20.5C------32.6C---.161

+6.3V Blower
Speed---Vcore---Watts---Ambient---CPU-----C/W
1500-----1.95-----94.6-----21.1C------36.7C---.162
1450-----1.85-----83.4-----21.1C------33.1C---.151
1400-----1.77-----74.8-----21.1C------31.4C---.138

Now I'm off to do some " Honey Do " projects. :-(

Hoot

[batboy]

Hoot, nice write up. I have scribbled cooling mod notes on scaps of paper laying around everywhere and keep telling myself that I should crank out articles of my testing and results to give others an idea of what works for me. It might give them some ideas on what to try, or what not to try. I'm a scientist, so I like to test, benchmark, and check temps with every little tweak I do. That sounds like it could be a song ("...With every tweak I do....I'll be overclocking you...").

[*spazzed*]

Magistrate (May 26, 2001 04:56 a.m.):
Spazzed86, where in Canada did you purchase the $15 blower? Was it online or locally? If locally, was it in Toronto?

I got it locally in Hamilton........just look in the auto parts stores

[Colin]

Hoot,

I have been following this since your first post with much interest. I believe this was long before the article. Any thoughts on how a blower would work with a Danger Den Cooling Cube? I don't expect it would handle the 450 watts of heat I am dealing with but it might be a start.

[Hoot]

Actually Colin, I have been following yours also and wondered about the same thing. If the lack of heat reduction in the cube is due to too much resistance to airflow, a blower would do the trick. Like you suggested in a different post, varying the voltage would allow you to tune the air speed to the cube.

Hoot

[mi1stormilst]

HOOT?

I am really abnormal so I need some help on this. I will be building my own shroud for the same mod you did cause it ROCKS! Here are some links to my prototype:

http://209.19.40.137/largeimages/project4.htm
http://209.19.40.137/largeimages/project5.htm

The reason for the angle is because of a handle my case has...it opens like a door. Anyway I need some technical help. First, I assume the fan does not come with a 3/4 pin lead for connecting directly to your MOBO (-: How did you accomplish this? Second, you described a voltage regulator of some kind. To be able to adjust the fan speed with a switch I must know how you did this? Can you please elaborate in great detail and provide some actual pictures?

Thanks in advance...

[asmodean]

mi1stormilst, that case looks very familiar... I wonder where I've seen such a thing? :)

I don't think Hoot connected the blower to the mobo, it would blow the mobo skyhigh drawing WAY too much voltage. The blower's most likely sucking the juice from his PSU, which is propably a very powerful one.

[Jackywebdesign]

mi1stormilst (May 28, 2001 03:23 p.m.):

First, I assume the fan does not come with a 3/4 pin lead for connecting directly to your MOBO (-: How did you accomplish this? Second, you described a voltage regulator of some kind. To be able to adjust the fan speed with a switch I must know how you did this? Can you please elaborate in great detail and provide some actual pictures?

Thanks in advance...

Yeah, how did you mod the fan's power connectors???

[Hoot]

Hi Guys
There has been enough interest generated that I will write a Part 3 detailing the regulator construction, with lots of pictures. Hopefully, Joe has not gotten tired of publishing these follow-ups.

Time is not on my side as my Mom and Dad arrive this week for their annual 2 week visit. I only get to see them once a year as they live 1200 miles away. Add to that, the fact that I just concluded a Major mod project on my MC-462A and need to write that up also. It gets the cooling efficiency down to .10c/w using my Cohesive Air Cooling setup. The key is replacing the Aluminum pins with Copper Clad Aluminum pins. Believe me, it was a "Labor of Love", or Obsession. It kinda dims there. ;D

Anyway, get the parts in the schematic from the article, including a 2K ohm Linear Taper potentiometer with a long shaft and I promise to write an article as time permits.

On wiring in the motor, as the article implies, bring the two voltage leads inside the case via a pair of banana plugs and jacks. Until you get the regulator going, just splice the two wires to a 4-pin molex connector and plug it into an unused cable from the PSU. At 5V, it only draws about 1A. You could power the motor from an external varialbe supply also. Remember, at 12V it draws 5A, so pick an appropriate supply.

Hoot

[Magistrate]

You're the man now, Hoot :D

I'm eagerly looking forward to the article, but I hope you don't rush it. I'm sure all the electrical newbs would appreciate as detailed an article as you can muster.

[Olog-hai]

This may be a real dumb question - but what ampage does the 12 v lines from power supplies run at........

Is there (and if so what) a danger of running it at 12 v @ 5 amps straight from the psu

[Hoot]

The amount of current that the 12V section of your PSU can deliver shoud be printed on the PSU. Here is a link to a chart of many popular PSU makes and models:

http://www.pc-beratung.net/Download/Power.pdf

Hoot

[Olog-hai]

Hoot,

Just another question, could you use the "dash board light dimmer" (real technical name there) as a regulator on this type of fan......

Judging from the number of lights one of these suckers regulate, I was wondering if they would be able to handle the sort of load going to this type of fan.

[Hoot]

If you're talking about the DC version of the blower, no, it draws a lot more current than one of those rheostats could handle. In the case of the AC version of the blower, you are better off using a bathroom fan speed control.

Hoot

[Olog-hai]

Cool thanks for the information

So how many watts does this thing suck (er the DC version)

[chrismacan]

Originally posted by Olog-hai
Cool thanks for the information

So how many watts does this thing suck (er the DC version)

Someone correct me if I am wrong...(12 V x 5.0 A = 60 W)

Cool article...Sorry for the pun:D