Shroud on radiator [Archive] - Overclockers Forums

Veland

10-12-02, 03:15 AM

I've got one of those BlackIce radiators, the big one with room for two 120mm fans on each side. It has ready made holes for the fan, so I made a shroud the easy way:

Inserted MB spacers in the holes for the fan, then inserted another set of spacers into the first one, and kept doing this until the fan would sit about 3cm over the rad. Yep! I've got a lot of those spacers! Oh, the metal type of course, and the type where internal and external screw is the same type..

Put on the fan and used some tape to cover the gap. Looks great and the deadspot is removed!

skahtul

10-12-02, 03:42 AM

Originally posted by ToiletDuck
Speaking of radiators how important is a shroud for one? My radiator is pretty big and I don't know If I have the materials and tools needed to make a shroud.

I think a good shroud is a great idea. I am building on right now out of sheet metal. Radiator is mounted above my power supply, with the fans on the Motherboard side of the radiator. This shroud is actually inside the computer, with a hole on the other side to blow out the air. With this design I hope to be able to mount the radiator inside the case, but avoid the problem of either sucking hot air through it from the case, or blowing hot air through it into the case. This picture sucks, but mabey you can see my idea. Any thoughts?

JSealy00

10-12-02, 08:23 AM

If you dont have any sheet metel skills....cardboard and duct tape always work for a decen shroud. It does help with cooling quite significantly.

DodgeViper

10-12-02, 10:43 AM

I wrote this article about building shrouds. It may be of help for you and others. CLICK (http://www.dwpg.com/content.php?contid=3&artid=134)

BabyEater

10-12-02, 02:07 PM

skahtul : i think your shroud would work better if your attached the fan onto the shroud itself and not onto the radiator as it will prevent the dead spot in the middle of your fan . That is if i am looking at your drawing right

Yodums

10-12-02, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by DodgeViper
I wrote this article about building shrouds. It may be of help for you and others. CLICK (http://www.dwpg.com/content.php?contid=3&artid=134)

I was going to quote you on your previous posts whereas you said a fan without a shroud has a deadspotin the middle and a shroud distributes the air evenly throughout the radiator resulting in better performance! ;)

ToiletDuck

10-12-02, 05:29 PM

Thanks for all of the replies. I'm going to read the article right now. I got the name because I just used Duck as a playing name. While playing Urban terror a FPS I would make calls all the time to let them know where I was. We had a lan on time and I drank a lot and while playing I found it easier to say FlyingDuck rather than duck is in the airplane. Or swimmingduck better than I'm swimming through the water. Then after drinking a lot I had to throw up and went into the bathroom and someone said, "Hey!! Now he's TOILETDUCK!! ahhahahaha". So i like it and stuck with it.

ToiletDuck

10-12-02, 05:35 PM

One more thing. Is it better to have the fans blowing cool air into the case or is it better to have the fans blowing the hot air out? I would think having them blow in would be better because the cool air is forced through the radiator and out wouldn't be as good because the warmer air in the case would be going through the radiator.... but i dunno

DodgeViper

10-12-02, 06:48 PM

You want the coolest air moving through the coil. So yes, air from the outside of the case should be moving though the rad.

Also I see many routing the tubing incorrectly. Again you want the coldest water entering the CPU first. Typically the tubing should be take this path.

pump output>>>heater core>>>heater core>>>center of water block>>>water block>>>pump input.

ToiletDuck

10-12-02, 08:01 PM

hmmm never thought of that. I would have gone pump>>>Waterblock>>>radiator>>>pump.

One thing that conserns me is that I think I am gonig to be running two pumps. one for each processor. I already have the pumps so I figured it would be better. But then I was thinking that I would have twice the waterflow going through the radiator. Would that be bad since the water wouldn't have as much time in it? Or would it be better because I would have a pump for each processor and more waterflow???

DodgeViper

10-12-02, 08:35 PM

Having two pumps is going to add twice amount of heat to the water from both of the pumps. What I would do is run a dual output rad like the one I made. Let me think about this....

DodgeViper

10-12-02, 08:52 PM

This looks like it would work providing you have enough flow and you have a heater core that will remove the heat. Personally I would not run dual pumps, but run one pump that has a true GPH and not one that claims to deliver XXX GPH.

DodgeViper

10-12-02, 09:08 PM

My dual output heater core.

Big Al Senior

10-13-02, 10:35 AM

DodgeViper,

Thanks for the link to the article; excellent work and I love the soldering jig!

I’m working on my first W/C rig and trying to sort this fan shroud thing out myself. What complicates things even more in my situation, is the fan to BIX mounting interface, there is 3/16 inch gap at both the top and bottom.

As for the shroud, I’m like electricity, I’m going to take the path of least resistance and cut the guts out of two noisy Delta 120X38 fans and just use the outer ring for my shroud. As for the gaps at the top and bottom, I guess I’ll just use weather stripping around the entire perimeter.

Big Al

skahtul

10-13-02, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by DodgeViper
You want the coolest air moving through the coil. So yes, air from the outside of the case should be moving though the rad.

I just have a few thoughts. Puting how it might look aside (we will know in a few weeks because this is how I am going to do it) won't it be better to mount the radiator to the outside of the case. That way you get no hot air from inside the case into it nor do you get any hot air blowing into it (that is why i am going to make the shround I have posted above)? Also for heat, wouldn't it be better to mount your pump outside your case?

skahtul

10-13-02, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by BabyEater
skahtul : i think your shroud would work better if your attached the fan onto the shroud itself and not onto the radiator as it will prevent the dead spot in the middle of your fan . That is if i am looking at your drawing right

Didn't really think about that yet. I am still planing it all out.

Big Al Senior

10-13-02, 12:41 PM

Skahtul,

I was thinking about taking that one step further. Put my case on legs (8”) and mount my BIX on the bottom (underneath the case) vertical (barbs at the top) inline with the centerline of the case. I could even go so far as to mount the pump, TEC P/S and reservoir down there.

Not only would this be the coolest air in the room, right on the floor, but I would also have the added advantage of the sound damping properties of carpet. In addition, if I decide to change cases, it would be easier to sell a PC-70 isn’t hacked up and only has a few mounting holes on the bottom.

Now this wouldn’t work if you have small kids, pets etc…..or you are going to put it on your desk.

Big Al

skahtul

10-13-02, 01:21 PM

I had thought of mounting stuff under the case also. I had two problems. My case is already to tall, it is a full server tower, and is not as wide as most ATX cases. The other is if the pump is under the case, you need all that much more GPH to get it back up to the CPU. I am planning on my Radiator inside, pump mounted on top, and res. in the back of the case. My friend is REAL good with sheet metal so he is helping me make it look good. I overclock computers, he "overclocks" trucks for fourwheeling, you would not believe what He can build.

scrappydog

10-13-02, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by ToiletDuck
hmmm never thought of that. I would have gone pump>>>Waterblock>>>radiator>>>pump.

One thing that conserns me is that I think I am gonig to be running two pumps. one for each processor. I already have the pumps so I figured it would be better. But then I was thinking that I would have twice the waterflow going through the radiator. Would that be bad since the water wouldn't have as much time in it? Or would it be better because I would have a pump for each processor and more waterflow???

I have a couple comments. First, I think the most efficient cooling flow is PUMP >> BLOCK >> RAD. I recall that the "Heat Dissipation Testing..." article discussed this; this flow resulted in a 3C advantage.

Second, if you build a shroud, it should be ~ 1.5" away from the heater core.

Third, for pumps, why not use a moderately high pressure pump that runs efficiently?

A moderately high pressure pump is going to guarantee that you have good flow regardless in the loss of head your system (i.e. bends in your tubing). The less power draw results in less heat as a byproduct, which is a huge issue regardless of whether you run the pump inline or submerged. For example, my 100W inline pump produces enough heat to warm my 10'x10' office approximately 2C-3C (running out of my computer case in a non-A/C room). If it were submerged, this heat would escape to the water that is supposed to be cooling your silicon. Either scenario is not optimal. For me, this means that I will probably get a new pump that is more efficient but still offers decent pressure.

BTW, if you want to split flows (e.g., RAD >> CPU & GPU BLOCKS), you can get a Y-Split. I got mine from U.S. Plastics Corp (http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/default.asp). I think some O/C online vendors sell them too.

DodgeViper

10-13-02, 06:29 PM

have a couple comments. First, I think the most efficient cooling flow is PUMP >> BLOCK >> RAD. I recall that the "Heat Dissipation Testing..." article discussed this; this flow resulted in a 3C advantage.

With pumps adding heat to the system why would you pre-cool the water and then send it through a heat source then into the water block?

Yes having the pump and rad outside the case is better. I just want to contain my entire cooling system inside. There is a price to pay though.

scrappydog

10-13-02, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by DodgeViper

With pumps adding heat to the system why would you pre-cool the water and then send it through a heat source then into the water block?

Yes having the pump and rad outside the case is better. I just want to contain my entire cooling system inside. There is a price to pay though.

Yeah, no matter what you do, there's always a trade off. :)

The pump doesn't transfer the heat to the water because the impeller housing (where the water is) is separated from the motor compartment.

So, instead of the heat being transferred to the water in a submerged pump system, the heat from my inline pump is transferred to the air, which increases my ambient air temp... which ultimately increases the water temp in my loop.

HeXenViRii

10-13-02, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by Robbie
What about aluminum tape?
Rob

lol , i usually use metal A/C tape to hold the aluminum can peices together , and it dosent come out looking that 'rigged as it might seem ....

DodgeViper

10-13-02, 08:03 PM

The pump doesn't transfer the heat to the water because the impeller housing (where the water is) is separated from the motor compartment.

scrappydog, run your pump overnite without any fans running or the computer running and tell what your water temps are. I ran my Eheim 1250 overnite pumping water though the entire system. The water temp was nearly 50c before booting the computer. No matter how you look at it, the watts of a pump is turned into heat, this heat is absorb by the water. Feel your pump housing and I bet its warm.

ToiletDuck

10-13-02, 08:14 PM

DogViper how many gph do you think that I need to run just one pump over a dual settup? what I have are via aqua 370gph pumps. is that enough?

scrappydog

10-13-02, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by DodgeViper

scrappydog, run your pump overnite without any fans running or the computer running and tell what your water temps are. I ran my Eheim 1250 overnite pumping water though the entire system. The water temp was nearly 50c before booting the computer. No matter how you look at it, the watts of a pump is turned into heat, this heat is absorb by the water. Feel your pump housing and I bet its warm.

I don't disagree with you -- in fact, I agree with you 100% !!!

What I was saying is that my pump produces a LOT of heat, but I run it inline (not submerged... it can't be run submerged), and it increases the temperature of my office by 2C-3C.

So, my pump is doing exactly what your pump is doing. The difference is that your pump is submerged, and the heat is transferred to the water it sits in. My pump is inline, and transfers it's heat to the air. Ultimately, both pumps do the same thing: transfer heat to the surrounding environment. The less wattage the pump pulls, the less heat produced.

BTW, the rep for a pump line told me that if there is resistence in the flow, the pump will create more heat. So, less head (pressure), the cooler your pump will run. Therefore, try to minimize 90 degree elbows, kinks, and other stuff that produce pressure in your flow. This also applies to the type of radiator you use, as it will generate water pressure in your loop.

DodgeViper

10-13-02, 10:58 PM

So, my pump is doing exactly what your pump is doing. The difference is that your pump is submerged, and the heat is transferred to the water it sits in.

Therefore, try to minimize 90 degree elbows, kinks, and other stuff that produce pressure in your flow. This also applies to the type of radiator you use, as it will generate water pressure in your loop.

My pump is not submerged. Here is a recent photo of my system before I removed the turbulators. No 90 degree elbows, kinks, and other stuff that produce pressure in my system flow.

scrappydog

10-14-02, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by DodgeViper
My pump is not submerged. Here is a recent photo of my system before I removed the turbulators. No 90 degree elbows, kinks, and other stuff that produce pressure in my system flow.

Your rig looks nice! Question: do you think your pump or your block transfer the most heat to the water?

ToiletDuck, why not test your setup with one pump, and then again with a 2 pump setup? Your temp probes should tell you which is the better.

DodgeViper

10-14-02, 12:40 AM

The block transfers the most heat to the water, but my pump puts out 28 watts. This energy is asorbed into the water though.

DodgeViper

10-14-02, 12:51 AM

I think a good shroud is a great idea. I am building on right now out of sheet metal. Radiator is mounted above my power supply, with the fans on the Motherboard side of the radiator. This shroud is actually inside the computer, with a hole on the other side to blow out the air. With this design I hope to be able to mount the radiator inside the case, but avoid the problem of either sucking hot air through it from the case, or blowing hot air through it into the case. This picture sucks, but mabey you can see my idea. Any thoughts?

My new case is going to be built like the crude drawing. Using the same heater core/fans as you see to the left. I will duct the front fan to the top of the case to supply fresh air with the rear fan exhausting the air out the back. I plan to use the Antec full tower as there is room above the P/S and this case has 6- 5 1/4" bays. The top three bays will not be used as my pump will be placed at the top as well to reduce heat in the bottom of the case. I will insulate this area as well.

scrappydog

10-14-02, 02:55 AM

Originally posted by DodgeViper
The block transfers the most heat to the water, but my pump puts out 28 watts. This energy is asorbed into the water though.

Hmmm, this is a little discouraging for me, as I was looking at replacing my 100W pump with one in the 25W-50W range to quiet the system and remove heat. How loud is the Eheim?

DodgeViper

10-14-02, 07:37 AM

I do not hear a thing from my pump. I see you are using a Gemini High Volume Block. I was one of the first to have this block when Peter first came out with it. I can tell you if you are using a 100 watt output pump, you are over powering this W/B, first with water flow and second with the heat that it placing into the system. Even my Eheim 1250 was to big for that block, placing to much restriction on the pump and adding heat to the system. Hoot who is in these forums had great results using Eheim 1048 pump which has an output of 10 watts. You may want to email Hoot or read his pump shoot-out which can be found here at this site.

DodgeViper

10-14-02, 10:05 AM

SCRAPPYDOG, Here is a quote from BillA found in the sticky about flowrate. Read the entire thread, CLICK HERE (http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78055)

the additional pump heat generated as a consequence of the head its pumping against

I'm not at all sure how the mfgrs' Wattage numbers are developed; but from extensive testing I can state definitively that the least heat will be added to the system with the pump at its maximum flow rate against a nominal head (back pressure)

as the back pressure is increased (and the flow consequently decreased), so is the heat generated by the pump increased, exponentially
- the maximum occurring when the pump is deadheaded (at shutoff)
I'm fairly sure this is not how the mfgrs rate their pumps, so users of big pumps that have them throttled back are adding a LOT of heat (unnecessarily) into their system

it is worthwhile to match the pump's flow and head capabilities/characteristics with the specific components of the cooling system, bigger is not necessairly better

scrappydog

10-14-02, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by DodgeViper
SCRAPPYDOG, Here is a quote from BillA found in the sticky about flowrate. Read the entire thread, CLICK HERE (http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78055)

Excellent thread! Thanks for the recommendation. Also, thank you for your notes regarding my pump. I have read Hoot's Shootout several times... which led me to the Gemini Cool block.

Ironically enough, I just purchased a Supreme 350, which is 35W & 350GPH to tackle my needs. A step in the smaller/cooler/quieter direction, although I am going large for a couple reasons. First, I have a 20" radiator (my 2 fans on it are capable of 470CFM), which is a LOT of cooling area and it adds head to the system. Second, I plan to add a GPU block, and possibly other blocks to the loop. Third, I will be adding bulkheads to my system, which will add head to the system. Basically, my cooler is on overdrive because I want it to be extensible in the long run (e.g., when I have a CPU producing 200W+ of heat).

In another thread, there is discussion about where to place components in the cooling cycle (i.e. PUMP >> BLOCK >> RAD). The thread you sent points out the importance of flow rate in the cooling equation. The reason I go from PUMP >> BLOCK >> RAD is to get the most flow through the block and a slightly lessened flow on the backend... the rad. I haven't tested the PUMP >> RAD >> BLOCK cycle, but I got decent results with my default configuration.

One other thing I haven't tried (but should) is the usage of a ball valve. I'd like to use one on my outflow and goof around until I find that magical sweet spot mentioned in that thread. A pump rep told me that if you use a ball valve, and therefore throttle your outflow, a centrifugal pump will consume less energy and be quieter (and, presumably, cooler). I haven't confirmed this yet, but it would sure be nice.

DodgeViper

10-14-02, 12:57 PM

As I have stated in many threads each system has many variables. What works for one may not work for the other. Personally I have never check pump flow compared to pump flow through my Chevy Chevette heater core. It would be interesting to have this info. I did check my flow of my pump at a 10" head. My Eheim had an output of 190 GPH. This same arrangement with the Gemini High Volume Water Block attached produce 64 GPH through the block at the same head. Now having said that and this is only a guess, but I would bet that the Eheim pumping through the heater core would deliver more than 64 GPH at a 10" head.

So point on this is Pump>Rad>Block>Rad would be better than Pump>Block>Rad>Pump, beacuse you are not introducing water heated by the pump housing before entering the block.

scrappydog

10-14-02, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by DodgeViper
...I have never check pump flow compared to pump flow through my Chevy Chevette heater core. It would be interesting to have this info...

I agree! I haven't been able to track down a cost effective flow measurement device. How do you calculate your flow rates?

So point on this is Pump>Rad>Block>Rad would be better than Pump>Block>Rad>Pump beacuse you are not introducing heat from the pump, but water that has been chilled then onto the block.

Yeah, I've been thinking about getting another rad just to test this theory. Larry Browning (writer of the "Brute Force Watercooling" article) said that he got a huge cooling gain by adding his 2nd Serck rad running in series in his rig. This is another test I'd like to try (i.e. Pump>Block>Rad1>Rad2>Pump).

SLO_N8

10-14-02, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by scrappydog

I agree! I haven't been able to track down a cost effective flow measurement device. How do you calculate your flow rates?

scrappydog,
A certain gallon bucket and a clock would do :D

scrappydog

10-14-02, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by SLO_N8

scrappydog,
A certain gallon bucket and a clock would do :D

Smarty pants! ;)

DodgeViper

10-14-02, 01:55 PM

This would be a good start at locating a flow meter. CLICK (http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/108/html/0444.html)

SLO_N8

10-14-02, 01:56 PM

Hey, I was serious, lol.

I'd think it'd be a rather effective means of measuing GPH. :)

DodgeViper

10-14-02, 02:04 PM

Here is a digital flow meter. CLICK (http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/108/html/0452.html)

http://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/108/gfx/small/9978kp1s.gif

ToiletDuck

10-14-02, 02:51 PM

So what your saying about the pumps and the water setups is that even though they are water you can't run them continuously? So that after a few hours you need to kill it? I am concerned with pump life. wouldn't mind haveing both pumps going onto one line that way if one dies the other one can still take over. Is there a program or something you can do that will shut down or turn down the mhz? I like to rip my own movies and that means %100 mhz for 4 hours at a time and also I am on the fold@home team 32 so when I'm not ripping these babies are folding protien. I'm hoping the pumps last though.

scrappydog

10-14-02, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by SLO_N8
Hey, I was serious, lol...I'd think it'd be a rather effective means of measuing GPH. :)

I agree! I appreciate the comments from both yourself & DodgeViper. I think the bucket solution is a little more in my price range. ;)

scrappydog

10-14-02, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by ToiletDuck
So what your saying about the pumps and the water setups is that even though they are water you can't run them continuously? So that after a few hours you need to kill it? I am concerned with pump life. wouldn't mind haveing both pumps going onto one line that way if one dies the other one can still take over. Is there a program or something you can do that will shut down or turn down the mhz? I like to rip my own movies and that means %100 mhz for 4 hours at a time and also I am on the fold@home team 32 so when I'm not ripping these babies are folding protien. I'm hoping the pumps last though.

Sure, you can run a pump continuously, just like in a fish tank. Since the pump and water block(s) add heat to the water, you simply need to cool the water (e.g., via a radiator).

The guy who just sold me my new pump told me that I will need to replace the impeller every 3-4 years or so, and that the pump will last much longer. He was referring to the Supreme Mag Drive pumps, but I would imagine that any decent quality pump will give you reliable performance for years.

scrappydog

10-14-02, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by DodgeViper
My new case is going to be built like the crude drawing...
Have you seen the new Gemini Cool all-in-one cooling rigs? Your drawing reminds me of its design.

DodgeViper

10-14-02, 03:17 PM

ToiletDuck, if you buy a good quality mag drive pump your concerns of pump failure is none.

I get a kick out those that invest in thousands of dollars in their system and turn around and buy a cheap 10.00 pump to supply their cooling water.

I had a Mag 500 pump and did not like it. Reason it was noisy. I don't like to give advise on what to buy and what not to buy, but it's hard to beat a Eheim pump. They are made in Germany and if you look around the 1250 can be had for $57.00.

I have seen the Gemini rig. Before I got into W/Cooling I had conversation with Peter.