water cooling with something else?

[Platinum1]

Of course, I'm not suggesting you don't have a liquid, but has anyone considered or tried other fluids? Does filtered water work best? I know that a little salt makes water conduct electricity (much) better, what about heat? Has anyone tried antifreeze or freon (or the equivalent) in a closed system? Although I don't think freon would work in an open system, there might be another additive that helps water conduct heat better. Also, does anyone know if food coloring adversely affects the system? I really doubt it does but thought I would ask while on the subject of additives



I know nothing about water cooling. I've never tried it. If this post sounds really dumb, sorry, please just ignore it and don't flame me.

[KILLorBE]

Platinum1 (Jun 24, 2001 03:44 a.m.):
If this post sounds really dumb, sorry, please just ignore it and don't flame me.

Welcome to the forum Platinum1
We won't flame you, Like another member said: "The only stupid questions are the ones not asked"
Yes PPL have used (and are still using) other fluids (alcohol, antifreeze), but I think some other members can answer this question better than I can.

[Beggar]

Hi dude, the goodness of a fluid pretty much depends on the SHC (specific heat capacity) of the fluid, this is how much energy is required for a certain temperature increase, water has a very high SHC, i.e. takes a lot of energy for the waters temp to increase, therefore, the water is cooler thru the the block for longer than other stuff and cause the temp difference is greater the block gets cooler faster. Water has a very high SHC compared to other fluids due to the double hydrogen bond or something like that, and therefore is probably best (i think there are a few better but they are hard to get hold of)

[Shadow ÒÓ]

Welcome to the Forum!

For the most part, water is the "best bang for the buck". There have been several other fluids discussed here, but most are either dadngerous or just too expensive.

Don't worry about flames..........this is a very friendly board. =)

[Flash]

I haven't tested it yet, but I'm told that an additive called water wetter increases the efficiency of a water cooling system. It also prevents algae growth. I believe the best solution (pun intended) is to use some antifreeze (to prevent corrosion/algae growth) and some water wetter to improve thermal efficiency, which is reduced somewhat by antifreeze.

[cjtune]

Beggar (Jun 24, 2001 06:18 a.m.):
Hi dude, the goodness of a fluid pretty much depends on the SHC (specific heat capacity) of the fluid, this is how much energy is required for a certain temperature increase, water has a very high SHC, i.e. takes a lot of energy for the waters temp to increase, therefore, the water is cooler thru the the block for longer than other stuff and cause the temp difference is greater the block gets cooler faster. Water has a very high SHC compared to other fluids due to the double hydrogen bond or something like that, and therefore is probably best (i think there are a few better but they are hard to get hold of)

This is if you are talking about a single-phase working fluid system. Two-phase systems (liquid/gas), like that of freon in your fridge depends more on latent heat of vaporization per unit mass of the fluid. BTW, liquid metals are used in some nuke power plants in place of water but I doubt anyone would enjoy the notion of having volatile liquid sodium circulating through your PC's casing.

[CpuWaterCool.com]

In a closed system, you have lots of play. The most popular is, again, Water Wetter. Not because it has the best performance per se, but the best performance for your dollar. Remember, corrosion isn't the only concern. Your tubing needs to survive the additive also!

[rugby]

I used distilled water and then tried water wetter with my watercooling rig. THe water wetter definitely cooled better, a couple of degrees is all I needed, but this stuff stinks like cat urine. I'm not joking, when I spilled a tiny bit on my hands my wife thought I emptied out the cat litter box with my hands! Go to an automotive store and pick up a bottle for 8$/12oz bottle instead of the ludicrous prices the online overclocking stores charge.

[dozier768]

i use an 11% glycol 3% water wetter 86% distilled ionized water solution

[Asz]

why doesn't anyone try something really weird, like a couple cans of pepsi?

[Big Mike]

A couple cans of pepsi in a watercooling rig would leave enough crud deposits to block the thing in no time flat...as was stated in a single phase cooling system there really isnt much thats finacially feasible that can outdo good old water and an OTC additive like water wetter

[cjtune]

Yeah, and pepsi might just give off bubbles in your piping that can potentially choke off flow and heat transfer (air is getting in between the water and the inner surface of your radiator), just like cavitation in water pipes.

One method I've read of cooling multi-processor modules is to immerse them into a liquid with low vaporization temperatures, like fluorocarbon (CFC, HCFC, etc.). The liquid, when in contact with the hot CPUs, will BOIL, and rise up and escape form the liquid surface and then be condensed by water-cooled coils above. The condensed FC will then drip back into the pool and thus completing a cycle. Here, heat is first removed (primarily) by the latent heat of vaporization of the FC and then passed on to the ambient by the water-cooled coils and radiator. Of course, the FC and water coils has to be in a pressurized container/tank. If anybody can build a PC sealed in a air-tight fridge, then this project should be only a bit harder... Anybody extreme enough to try?

[SharkyTM]

truth be known........ the best liquid to use thats feasible (this excludes liquid n2, o2, or he) would be liquid ammonia... its possible to make a system that uses ammonia and doesnt corrode... just requires a little chemistry knowledge... the reason for using liquid ammonia is that it has the highest heat capacity and latent heat of vaporization.... water is a far second...... dunno if any OC'ers have tried it, but someone should try... :)



SharkyTM

[Spewn]

What is the specific heat capacity of ammonia? Also, keep in mind that the stuff is toxic, and it'd be INCREDIBLY illegal to use it in your home(an arena near me had an ammonia leak, and they evacuated half the university campus).

[Mr.L]

cjtune (Jun 24, 2001 11:03 a.m.):

This is if you are talking about a single-phase working fluid system. Two-phase systems (liquid/gas), like that of freon in your fridge depends more on latent heat of vaporization per unit mass of the fluid. BTW, liquid metals are used in some nuke power plants in place of water but I doubt anyone would enjoy the notion of having volatile liquid sodium circulating through your PC's casing.

I think MERCURY is less dangerous than liquid sodium , anyone have tried mercury instead of water?

[*spazzed*]

Spewn (Jun 27, 2001 10:42 a.m.):
What is the specific heat capacity of ammonia? Also, keep in mind that the stuff is toxic, and it'd be INCREDIBLY illegal to use it in your home(an arena near me had an ammonia leak, and they evacuated half the university campus).

Actually, I have found some house hold items that contain small amounts of amonia......such as after bite ;D I hate pesky mosquitos
Has any one used Dex-cool anti-freeze(the orange stuff) ???

[inertia]

Um, ammonia can be bought at Wal-Mart.

There aren't many things more toxic than mercury (Hg). Methylated mercury will leech straight through rubber gloves like they're not even there. Ignoring that, the stuff is DENSE as it it weight a LOT.

[dozier768]

lol ya mercury would be good but its highly toxic and is known to accumulate in the brain in small amounts and cause insanity lol not to mention it would be real hard to pump

[Kingslayer]

Ok, so we have Mercury which will kill you or make you insane.
Ammonia, which may be illegal and will kill you.
Pepsi, which will cause bubbles...(the smartass in me says use flat pepsi...duuhhhh)

What about common stuff. Let's say...hydraulic fliud. It's not a heavy as oil, can be pumped, and if I remember bleeds heat pretty well. If you don't believe me you've never set your arm on an actively working hydraulic resevior...

How about bleach...I dunno, im grasping at straws...

What about other thin oil based substances. There's a ton of them out there.

And what about the grandaddy of them all. Electrolytic Fluid. It's a non-conductive (electricity, don't know about heat though) fluid. Spring a leak and you don't have to worry. And I have seen a computer run completly submerged in this stuff. Drives were on the outside of course. But even the power supply was submerged.

[doublec16]

I don't know where you're getting this info about mercury. I've held mercury in my hand and I'm still alive. It's only if you take it internally that you'd be in trouble. I think it has a similar effect as lead: it stays in the system and prevents proper metabolism in the cells, thus killing them, which is particularly dangerous for the brain where the cells don't reproduce, if you survive long enough to worry about that sort of thing.

[Nathan Detroit]

[quote]inertia (Jun 27, 2001 04:02 p.m.):
Um, ammonia can be bought at Wal-Mart.

Has anyone tried this kind of ammonia?

[Richard]

Pumping Mercury would be a challenge. Not to mention that the safety code violation would be pretty horrendous.

Silver has an excellent thermal conductivity (406)
For comparison, Aluminum (205) and Copper (385)

Air, has a very poor thermal conductivity (.026)
Water, significantly better than air at (.6)

With regard to using other liquids...

You'll be hard pressed to find a liquid with better thermal properties than pure water.

Ammonia, doesn't interact well with Copper at all. If you want corrosion in your fancy copper block and radiator fill it with ammonia.

Chlorine Bleach? Is a strong electrolyte and isn't as thermally conductive as pure water.



Kingslayer (Jun 27, 2001 08:59 p.m.):
Ok, so we have Mercury which will kill you or make you insane.
Ammonia, which may be illegal and will kill you.
Pepsi, which will cause bubbles...(the smartass in me says use flat pepsi...duuhhhh)

What about common stuff. Let's say...hydraulic fliud. It's not a heavy as oil, can be pumped, and if I remember bleeds heat pretty well. If you don't believe me you've never set your arm on an actively working hydraulic resevior...

How about bleach...I dunno, im grasping at straws...

What about other thin oil based substances. There's a ton of them out there.

And what about the grandaddy of them all. Electrolytic Fluid. It's a non-conductive (electricity, don't know about heat though) fluid. Spring a leak and you don't have to worry. And I have seen a computer run completly submerged in this stuff. Drives were on the outside of course. But even the power supply was submerged.

[doublec16]

So the best thing for water cooling is distilled water?

[Mr.L]

Mercury is the liquid substance (at ambient temperature) with the best thermal conductivity. If it's handled with care its toxicity should not be an issue.
Regarding thermal conductivity Mercury rules!
Mercury 8.69 W/m-C (at 20ºC)
Ammonia 0.521 W/m-C (at 20ºC)
Water 0.599 W/m-C (at 20ºC)
But I'm worried about some factors:
1) Amalgam formation. Mercury forms amalgams when it gets in contact with some metals (gold, tin) I don't know if it forms amalgams with copper , aluminium or silver,.
2) Pumping. Mercury is heavy, the system would require a bigger pump than a watercooler.
3) Electrical conductivity. It's a metal, it conducts electricity much better than water.
4) Price? I don't know where to buy mercury and how much does it cost.

It's an interesting experiment, I'm going to find out how to solve this problems, I have already a 1/2HP pump and high pressure hoses. :-)

[Flash]

I really think this is a *BAD* idea. As mentioned above, mercury is extremely toxic, and it's a cumulative poison that cannot be cured.

Ever hear the expression "mad as a hatter"? It comes from the fact that, in the old days, hat makers used mercury in their production process, and after a while the accumulated mercury in their brains drove them insane.

Also, there are very tough rules about disposal of mercury (because of groundwater contamination)--how'd you like your house to be a Super Fund site?

[Richard]

I will report you if you used a mercury cooler. It's just that simple.

The contamination effects of that much mercury would be pretty devastating if it got into the water supply.

Mr.L (Jun 28, 2001 11:23 a.m.):
Mercury is the liquid substance (at ambient temperature) with the best thermal conductivity. If it's handled with care its toxicity should not be an issue.
Regarding thermal conductivity Mercury rules!
Mercury 8.69 W/m-C (at 20ºC)
Ammonia 0.521 W/m-C (at 20ºC)
Water 0.599 W/m-C (at 20ºC)
But I'm worried about some factors:
1) Amalgam formation. Mercury forms amalgams when it gets in contact with some metals (gold, tin) I don't know if it forms amalgams with copper , aluminium or silver,.
2) Pumping. Mercury is heavy, the system would require a bigger pump than a watercooler.
3) Electrical conductivity. It's a metal, it conducts electricity much better than water.
4) Price? I don't know where to buy mercury and how much does it cost.

It's an interesting experiment, I'm going to find out how to solve this problems, I have already a 1/2HP pump and high pressure hoses. :-)

[dozier768]

mecury can infact get into your system if you hadle it with your bare hands but you'd have to handle it often for fairly long periods of time, also im pretty sure that its pretty dang expensive stuff, expensive enoght to make it not worth while, i think most of us are gonna probably stick with water for now lol it works better than air and if u want to go the xtra mile and get those temps really low just buy a peltier there not that expensive, and the seem to be the most practical solution.

[Newbie_Doo]

Esoteric solutions aside (pun intended), distilled water with WaterWetter is about the best combo available. If you spill it (or have a reservoir failure or 2 like I had) it *will* make your desk stink like antifreeze. WaterWetter doesn't attack the clear tubing that is most common in our systems, but it IS hard on silicone sealer and neoprene tubing.

[*spazzed*]

How about using Dot4 brake fluid? Brakes get perty hot and that brake fluid has to bleed alot of heat :)
Using the orange Dex-cool anti-freeze works slightly better than the old green anti-freeze.....looks different too :)

[*spazzed*]

BuMp ^

[dozier768]

*spazzed* (Jun 29, 2001 02:07 a.m.):
How about using Dot4 brake fluid? Brakes get perty hot and that brake fluid has to bleed alot of heat :)
Using the orange Dex-cool anti-freeze works slightly better than the old green anti-freeze.....looks different too :)

DOT4 brake fluid is silicone based and doesnt break down under extreme tempature's but i dont know whate the rate of heat disapation is hydraulic oil on the other hand is a mineral oil base and ive heard that people submerge electrical components in it that operate under extreme temps

[IAMCanadian]

what would the effects be if you diluted artic silver and used that? by dilute i mean make it more of a liquid? probally not fesible but I am justa simple canadian eh ^_^

[*spazzed*]

IAMCanadian (Jul 03, 2001 05:38 a.m.):
what would the effects be if you diluted artic silver and used that? by dilute i mean make it more of a liquid? probally not fesible but I am justa simple canadian eh ^_^

Don't worry, I'm part canadian too......he he
I'm not too sure on how that would work......but it'd make quite a bit of sludge in your waterblock, and that's not good

[CalCoolage]

Richard999 (Jun 28, 2001 04:49 p.m.):
I will report you if you used a mercury cooler. It's just that simple.

The contamination effects of that much mercury would be pretty devastating if it got into the water supply.


The enviro-screwballs have contaminated the thought environment which is much more hazardous to a heathy brain then mercury could ever be.

Mercury has been used in tooth fillings for a century or more. Virtually everyone in the US has mercury embedded in their teeth for this reason. If it had any discernable health effect, there would be overwhelming statistics to prove it, and the lawyers would be making billions on it in class-action suits.

Natural gas has methyl mercaptan, a mercury compound, added to it to make it detectable by smell. Everyone who uses natural gas is emitting mercury into the air to be breathed by the entire world, and they have been doing it since at least the fifties. Again, no discernable health hazard.

Ordinary florescent lights contain mercury vapor which is released when they are broken and disposed of.

Mercury does occur naturally in the environment. After all, that is where we obtain the ores for all metals.

Handling miscellaneous mercury compounds can be hazardous, and handling mercury a lot can cause it to form traces of miscellaneous compounds.

As a coolant, mercury appears to be worthless compared to water because other properties besides thermal conductivity dominate. In a fluid, heat moves by the fluid itself moving, and this can be much faster than conduction, as shown by the water cooling of engines.

I'm not trying to be mean, but I can take only so much BS before I explode.

[Fink]

CalCoolage (Jul 03, 2001 10:51 a.m.):
(snip) Natural gas has methyl mercaptan, a mercury compound, added to it to make it detectableby smell. (snip)


Methyl mercaptan is actually methylthiol (CH3SH). It is called methylmercaptan because of its stench - organo-mercurary compounds are notoriously stinky as are organosulfur compounds. The body can detect ppb levels of methylthiol making it an excellent indicator for adding to odorless gasses such as natural gas.

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