3+ heater cores in parallel

[Mooker]

Hey. I was just doin some thinkin and thought about how 3 or 4 heatercores would do in parallel. For like if you had a system with 2 220 watt TECs. Has anyone tried this? Would this type of setup be able to get water temps down to ambient?




Thanks:beer:

[nikhsub1]

Originally posted by Mooker
Hey. I was just doin some thinkin and thought about how 3 or 4 heatercores would do in parallel. For like if you had a system with 2 220 watt TECs. Has anyone tried this? Would this type of setup be able to get water temps down to ambient?
That would be a huge waste of time, money and effort, and, you would need like a 1000GPH pump with a 50 foot head. One good heater core would be able to do the job well, 2 in parallel would be good too, anything beyond that is just silly and unneeded.

[cack01]

It all depends on the fan(s) that you use. You can actually use one heatercore, as long as the fans you use put enough air over the core. With 3-4 cores, you can use smaller weaker fans, and get the same proformance as with 1 giant fan. You may even be able to passivly cool them, but I'm not sure about that. It will be hard to get all of them to have equal flow though, and ofcourse it will need to be a parallel setup.

[Mooker]

I kno it would be a waste of money but I was just thinkin. Like cack said maybe if you wanted a passive system of some sort on dual procs or something.

[nikhsub1]

Originally posted by Mooker
I kno it would be a waste of money but I was just thinkin. Like cack said maybe if you wanted a passive system of some sort on dual procs or something.
You would also need a mongo pump, like an Iwaki which are mucho $$$$$$.

[Warlord2]

I have 2 rads in parallet right now and I will just say that you dont need nearly as much air flow as you do with only one rad. This is just with a plane h2o setup though. I would NOT go with one rad for two 220 watt tec, you would be MUCH better off with 2 rads sense it almost triples the effecticy as opposed to one radiator.

[SemiCycle]

With more then 2 heatercores (really only one is needed), you would run into diminishing returns quickly. You can only cool the water back down to ambient. Better fans, or corrected mounted and directed fans is a better way to go.

[JasonKosi]

I don't think that in parallel would require a larger pump...
In series I can see the necessity for greater water pressure, but not parallel.

[none1]

OK folks, why would this need to be parallel? Help a n00b out.

I mean, there are cases where one normal heater core won't get the job done. So the question is how to get more cooling? Use a car radiator? (HUGE) or go with multi smaller heater cores?

NOTE This site
http://becooling.safeshopper.com/33/177.htm?210
has a kit with two mini heater cores, and claims it has the same cooling power as a single bigger core. BUT, doesn't say parallel or serial.

thanks

[Warlord2]

one would not be enough for 2 220 watt tec, that would be 550+ watt of heat to remove and one rad isnt going to cut it very well without atleast 2 131cfm fans on it. Believe me you will get lots of improvement with a parallel setup. No you dont need a bigger pump, I was even using a 150gph for a week or so, thin I got this via 1300 wich is working without a problem to push this water. With a parrallel setup the water is being forced to go slower through the rads and faster through the block, this makes it almost 3x more effective thin a single rad.

[strokeside]

If you had 3 rads in parallel, they would be kind of like a res too, as they hold so much water. In parallel, you would be drawing the water through the rads slower, thereby meeting less resistance to flow compared to if you double the speed (single rad).
And the extra time the water stays in the rad can only help to reduce temps. I think the space you have in your case and how how you have your rads mounted/positioned will determine how much of an improvement you see over normal 1 rad setups.

But anything over two rads(each rad being a heatercore) is serious overkill.

[none1]

Originally posted by strokeside


But anything over two rads(each rad being a heatercore) is serious overkill.

Depends on the amount of heat, no? < evil :) >

I haven't had time to jump in WC yet. Plan to this fall sometime. I already posted a few weeks ago. I've got a farm. 12 comps, all on a shelf unit, none in a case, all have fans, one big room fan blowing in from the window. NOISY

So I'm a thinking WC all 12 comps ........ so multi rads sounds good to me. I would not have thought about parallel, slower through the rads gives better cooling, but it makes perfect sense.

Thanks much!

[Lt. Max]

by paralell do u mean in a row or do u mean like from pump it splits into 2 or 3 and then goes thru rads and then joins back together? thats what my friend did :)

max

[Freeloader]

Like Warloard2 said, you don't need a bigger pump for a bunch of rads in parallel. Adding rads in parallel reduces resistance and increases overall flow, meaning you could use a smaller pump.

Instead of using a bunch of heatercores, it would be better to use a car rad (you still won't need a large pump). You could then use a large quiet fan, instead of a lot of noiser small fans. This is exactly what I would do if I were runing 2 220watt tecs.

Ideally, you would want to get the water around 2 or 3c above ambient. Getting the water even with ambient would be very difficult and probably not worth the effort (excluding a bong).

[Kill Control]

just get a core 2x as big with dual fans. it seems like it would all work out the same as 2 smaller cores, if not better due to less tubing.

[Frodo Baggins]

hmm.....depends on the pump. I think no, it would look ugly and has too many problems

[Hellraiser]

can anyone show me pics of a paralell heatercore setup?
i think setting up a paralell heatercore takes up more space and is more difficult to setup ( hoses ).

i not sure but i think it does make sense that a pump has less work to do when 2 heatercores are paralell than setup in serial, but i think the gain in dropping temps will be the same.

[Frodo Baggins]

uh...i dunno if it' worth it. honestly, your gonna hve a pretty ugly setup with 3 rads outside your case, and a bong could prolly beat it. Just remember you may be going to a ton of trouble to get rid of a couple degrees. Like the jump of going from a heatercoreLESS setup to a heatercore setup is big, but from there your trying to fight against the ambiant barrier and you prolly won't be getting much of an increase

I'm not sure however, but my suggestion is forget about thie 3 heatercores in parrallel. Spend your money on quality parts and you can prolly get some better temps

[Toysrme]

Unless he's talking having to cool massive amounts of power. I don't think it would be feasable.

I mean have you ever noticed that most of the guys that actually check the water temp only rises afew degrees from AMB. in the worst cases? Those last few degrees I feel won't make enough of a differance as is worth the money time and trouble.

-Toysrme

[EyelessFace]

Look here (http://www.overclockers.com/tips1003/)

Someone has already done that, take a look and see what he did.

[safemode]

a few degrees above ambient is not only BS but it's really obviously wrong BS. Unless you have a large amount of fan power quickly removing the heat from the water as it passes through the radiator you're not going to remove all the heat from the water. The water increases in temperature. It has to be hotter than the radiator in order to pass it's heat to the radiator. So when i go and put my hand back there and feel the heat coming off the radiator i'm left with only one possibility. The water is hotter than the warm air i feel coming off that and the air feels warm because it's a significant amount of degrees hotter than the cold ambient air in the room. If the water is allowed to be a little bit colder ( by lowering the ambient a few degrees) the cpu temp can be anywhere from 35C to 45C . That's a 10C range just by 5C changes in ambient at full load. So variations, even small, of water temperature do make a difference. Maybe the people taking those temperatures should take samples after being on for more than 20 minutes. My computer has been on for almost 60 days now since moving into my dorms so i think it's stabalized. I wouldn't trust anyone's temps if they haven't been at full load for over 12 hours and aren't testing the temp immediately before and immediately after the cpu block at the same time.

Now with that said I think multiple hearcores should only be used if you can fit them all inside the computer because anything that has to be outside the computer is much harder to not look like total goat balls and be impractical to boot. Now with a case as big as mine you can fit a d-tek heatercore over the powersupply and do a really clean looking water cooled system. This is a problem for multiple heatercores though because you do not want to have the same air going through both because you'll increase the ambient for the second. You need a way to keep both close together yet taking new air. The only good way to do this is to either cut a hole in the top of the case and have both sucking from inside the case and blowing out and keeping them far enough apart so that they can get enough air yet still be close enough so you dont add unecessary length to the tubing. OR you can do the same setup on the bottom with one on the intake port standing upright and sucking into the case with another laying down on the bottom where a hole was cut into the bottom of the case sucking into the case. This method oallows you to keep them closer since they aren't trying to suck the same air but it requires that you have the pump up somewhere else in the case (i keep mine in a 5.25" bay area. Of course you want to try and keep everything as muchon the same level as possible to minimize tube length. Going 3 heatercore basicalyl means you have no choice but to do the top mount with the top two bays probably becoming unusable and you'll have to suck into the case instead of out and have your output be the bottom front or open card slots. Again, i wouldn't consider doing anything if it couldn't fit in the case or be attached to the case in some locked way. You shouldn't have to get another person to move your tower or worry about tipping something over and destroying your computer etc.

[Freeloader]

If the water is allowed to be a little bit colder ( by lowering the ambient a few degrees) the cpu temp can be anywhere from 35C to 45C . That's a 10C range just by 5C changes in ambient at full load.

safemode, you couldn't be more wrong. First of all, if the ambient changes 1 degree, then the cpu changes 1 degree. It's really that simple. If you ever get different results, it's because of an inaccurate measuring device. Second of all, it has been proven many times that people can get the water a few degrees over room temp with a heatercore (many, many times). Third, there is alot of ways a person can setup a large rad and make it look good.

[none1]

Originally posted by safemode
Again, i wouldn't consider doing anything if it couldn't fit in the case or be attached to the case in some locked way. You shouldn't have to get another person to move your tower or worry about tipping something over and destroying your computer etc.

I apreciate your desire and concern for asthetics. BUT

coolness is better than coolness :)

Yep, coolness (CPU) is better than coolness (asthetic).

First dude was talking about using TWO 220 watt peltiers, my guess is that's going to be an open case deal. For me, I've got 14 CPUs to cool. NO cases, just a shelving unit with motherboards, powersuplys and many many noisy fans. :-( I have no cases, NONE, to worry about putting the rad in. There is concern that one heatercore may not adequately cool ALL my procs, so I thought parallel might help.

Thanks for the input.

BTW, exactly how much higher than ambient is your proc with your WC? I'm new to WC, and am looking for ideas on what to expect.

Thanks,

[safemode]

Originally posted by Freeloader


safemode, you couldn't be more wrong. First of all, if the ambient changes 1 degree, then the cpu changes 1 degree. It's really that simple. If you ever get different results, it's because of an inaccurate measuring device. Second of all, it has been proven many times that people can get the water a few degrees over room temp with a heatercore (many, many times). Third, there is alot of ways a person can setup a large rad and make it look good.

it is that simple if you look at it only on one interface and you forget that air has slight density fluctuations with temperature because it's a gas and the humidity in the air does fun things even at small fluctuations. k our happy constant in the heat transfer equation changes slightly. How slightly depends on a few factors. Yes this is only significant at certain temperatures but some of us operate regularly in these ranges.

Also, i never said they couldn't get the water close to the ambient temp. It requires a variable amount of added air current over the heatercore to do so. Air power that I find to be too noisy to be used. The part i was talking about was the notion that it's a given with water cooling systems that the water doesn't get that much warmer when you use heatercores. Mention about the screaming delta or multiple fans needed to remove the extra heat from the water was conveniently forgotten. The closer to ambient you want to get an exponential amount of air will have to pass over it for a given temperature and surface area. There is a point where that return doesn't justify the cost and ignoring the cost is what people seem to like to do when bragging about their specs.

Of course there are a lot of ways to set up a large radiator. This thread is about multiple radiators so that would have nothing to do with the thread. Setting up multiple radiators increases the difficulty of handling them in a stylish but more importantly practical way. Unsecured outside of the case or inside is not viable in my opinion. Securing it outside makes the case less practical because now you have to either transport both the secured heatercores and the computer at the same time when they do need to be moved and it makes the footprint bigger or you cant transport them at all or you have to dis-engage them and do it that way. Increasing the footprint just makes it that more easy to have something collide with it. So if you're arguing that you can setup multiple radiators outside of the case (which is the only way you'd have an issue with what i said about it) then you're free to do something like that. It's destined to have something bad happen more than something internal but i'm not the one who's going to have that happen to. And i'm sure as hell betting it's going to be a lot harder to make them look like something not ghetto outside of the case than inside.


I do notice nothing was mentioned about my suggestions being wrong, only the reasons behind them...which still wouldn't make the suggestions wrong. My suggestions all accomplish the goal set out, making the assumptions to get there another topic.

[safemode]

Originally posted by none1


I apreciate your desire and concern for asthetics. BUT

coolness is better than coolness :)

Yep, coolness (CPU) is better than coolness (asthetic).

First dude was talking about using TWO 220 watt peltiers, my guess is that's going to be an open case deal. For me, I've got 14 CPUs to cool. NO cases, just a shelving unit with motherboards, powersuplys and many many noisy fans. :-( I have no cases, NONE, to worry about putting the rad in. There is concern that one heatercore may not adequately cool ALL my procs, so I thought parallel might help.

Thanks for the input.

BTW, exactly how much higher than ambient is your proc with your WC? I'm new to WC, and am looking for ideas on what to expect.

Thanks,


Asthetics should be much more than just coolness but also be functionally practical, the more it can be both the better the design is. It's very easy to come up with systems that cool your cpu down quite nicely but screw other areas of concern (or should be concern). Performance should follow design and good design should be asthetically pleasing in a home environment (who cares what you have hiding in a basement or some place closed and never seen).


What makes you say it has to be open case? what is opening the case going to do or do you mean he's going to have to have such a size of components or amount that they cannot fit in the case? It sounds like you're trying to use air cooling methodology on a watercooling system. Opening the case isn't necessary to get the air to the heatercores. In fact opening the case means you change the current of air, you may decrease the amount of air current over other heat producing components like the ram which has no active cooling normally. This can be an issue because it expects it. You're going to have to direct air to it somehow or risk overheating it if you're overclocking everything. that means either adding fans or using the fans you've already got to use and that means closing the case and keeping control over the flow of air. If all the air has to pass by the motherboard in it's travels then you cool the motherboard. This is good. Overall system heat is dissipated for a lower overall temperature instead of just pretending like all that matters is cpu temp. Anyone into computer hardware knows that's not the case. 440 watts spread over two heatercores with moderate air current shoudn't be much of a problem. You're not gonna get a silent system but it's definitely going to be a vast improvement over what you'd need in an air cooled system. You could go quieter with added pump power + larger than d-tek heatercores but doing that means external setup which may not be worth it, chances really silent isn't as important to someone using 220 watt peltiers.


In your situation it would require another room to house the units and a room to work in because unlike you i prefer to not be deaf. Of course 14 units cannot fit into a simple case and obviously unless you want 14 separate water cooling systems you're not going to be able to practically handle them in cases. and if you dont have the cases or the room then that adds many more variables to the equation. The case does a few other things with computers besides enclose it ...it shields it too and gives protection. I'm not seeing how your situation is anything like the thread owners. His situation is perfectly suitable and i'd argue practicaly sound to be inside the case . There are many ways which your setup could be done much better but given that it is the way it is now...i'm not sure where you'd start to improve things. No, a single heatercore has no chance so obviously you 'd need many. I'd suggest going for only 2 units per cooling system and have multiple entire systems. Other than that you'd have to spend some money to make things look better and be more practical. but it's an entirely different situation from the author's so it's another topic.

about 22C difference at full load with ambient being around 13C. It's hard to say how many CFM i have going through the radiator because i'm 7volting a delta 119cfm fan and it's also pulling air from inside the case (cooling the rest of the computer). So chances are that delta T is a little smaller. Also using a maxi-jet1200 but it's hard to say how many gps i'm doing because it's a function of length of water travel and difficulty making that travel. Welcome to the world of data context and subjectivity. Take the numbers for what you will.

[Toysrme]

Ok i'll be shoving my second Compunurse prove into my water line through the T fitting. Pump-CPU-Radiator_T_pump (i'll sac the pump heat for maby the expectation of the pump lasting 5 min longer<g>)

So i'm taking the water temp after it's been cooled. Wo't make a differance. If it isn't very warm after it's been cooled. It obviously was "boiling" to start with. Prime 95 will be run.

Edit I'll take max/min temps from mbm.

Edit2 Prime wasn't working so I'll just run infinate loops of UT2k3 botmatches all night. That oughta do her. Since sandra's burn in just royally sucks.

[safemode]

another factor in how much your water temp increases is the flow rate and amount of water in the system.. If you can spread the heat out over a large quantity of water for every given cycle you will have a much easier time keeping the temp close to ambient, but that has downsides in other areas as opposed to keeping everything as small as possible. I have about 3.5 ft of tubing ...whatever the volume of the d-tek heatercore is and maybe 12 oz's worth of water. Powered by a maxi-jet 1200 which can do 295gph. I'm spreading about 56watts over a little less than 0.08 gallons per second. I'd estimate about 1 gallon in my system. This means that once equillibrium is achieved, you have spread your cpu wattage across the entirety of the water in the cooling system. In other words, the water of any given area only needs to contain a few watts and thus not increase in temperature much because there is so much water to have the heat from the cpu spread across.

Just another nice factor to think about when reporting temps.

And what kind of setting is that to turn the computer off for a power blink. That's not very convenient or your ups has almost no backup power.