170CFM blower - oiling?

[CalCoolage]

Hoot,
I was ROFL reading your commentary in the blower article, and impressed with your expertise and the cool results. So now I have a Dayton 2C646 in my personal collection.
The Dayton pamphlet says to oil the motor every six months using only non-detergent( ML) oil. Interesting. I have never seen non-detergent oil for sale anywhere, not in 20 years. Where does one obtain this stuff? What will happen if I use the common detergent stuff? And how do you get the oil in? I see no openings or cups and the motor is riveted together.

I tried it out at 5V and it puts out a pretty good breeze; something like a 12 inch personal fan on medium speed. There does not seem to be any audible noise from the spinning fan cage, but the sharp sound of the brushes on the commutator is very grating.and annoying. I've never heard this sound from another motor, possibly because the other racket they make drowns it out. At 5V you can almost count the clicks at. Possibly there is less noise when it is mounted, but as it is, I'd say it is as grating as as a 38CFM Delta. I may end up abandoning the project .

Trying to get the people at Gainward to sell to me was interesting. They will ONLY sell to companies they say. I have never been to a distributor who refused to sell me something before. We went around in circles several times. But I acted very put out about it and insisted I could see no reason they could not sell it to me. So then the salesperson found some way he could do it. He said that in two weeks there would be ABSOLUTELY no way he could do this. (Too bad; they have a lot of cool stuff there.) After that you will probably have to special order it from elsewhere for $100 while they get it for $42 from Gainward.

There is an identical 120VAC version of this (2C647) and a 230VAC version. They just attach a different motor. I know there are AC motor speed controls. I don't know if they work with all motors, but that could an alternative and some AC motors do not use brushes. They do not mention brushes for the AC versions of this blower and call it a shaded pole.

Thanks for any comments from anyone.

Later: It's Grainger not Gainward.

[KILLorBE]

CalCoolage (Jun 30, 2001 08:13 a.m.):
The Dayton pamphlet says to oil the motor every six months using only non-detergent( ML) oil. Interesting. I have never seen non-detergent oil for sale anywhere, not in 20 years. Where does one obtain this stuff? What will happen if I use the common detergent stuff?

If my memory serves me right they use the same oil for some turntables (Xample: Technics SL 1200 MKII), but it was a little expensive ~$15 for a few ml..
I've got a few R/C cars and they use all sorts of oil for these cars so you might wanna check a Toy shop.
Other types of oil will do, but you probably will have to oil it once a month or even once a week, and the fan will probably be worn out much sooner.

[Magistrate]

Well, I'm glad I put off ordering my blower... There's no way in hell I'd want to oil something once a week and the prospect of it wearing out prematurely because of the use of improper oil is just too much. Guess I'll have to look for some other means of cooling now... *grumble grumble*

[Placid]

Check here they make some really powerfull fans.
http://www.comairrotron.com/

[CalCoolage]

once a week?

My apologies, my mistake. I looked at the pamphlet, again, which covers the three versions together, and in the oiling section they only mention the model numbers for only the two AC units. No wonder their weren't any oil cups or holes.

BTW, bearings which can be lubricated often last 30 years running continuously. Sealed bearings dry out, then get noisy, and one day the shaft seizes. So I rather liked the idea of oiling.

I don't know enough about bearings to understand why they would specify non-detergent oil.
They also say "or electric motor oil". I have never seen that stuff either.

After I ran the blower for an hour, the sharpness of the noise dropped. I d say it is now comparable to the 26CFM YS Tech. Possibly I could spray some sound deadening automotive undercoating on the sheet metal housing to get rid of resonances.

[Magistrate]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up...

So let's say I decide to order one, what should I say to the Gainward (do you mean Grainger?) guys in order to get them to send me one. You say that they gave you a lot of hassle because you aren't a company?

[CalCoolage]

>(do you mean Grainger?)
Yes. I'm going to have to get a new brain. This one no longer functions well, even during daylight hours. You should see what my messages look like before I preview them.

I don't know what changed the guys mind. Tell them you know for a fact that a guy just bought one. Tell them you never were refused at any other place. Act like you really, really have to get the part. Maybe you will not have a problem in a different branch.

The salesperson said it was a courtesy order. Ask for a courtesy sale.

The problem is they do not want to deal with sales tax, I gather. Companies have a number issued to them by the state which exempts their purchases from sales tax. They in turn have to charge tax on the customer to whom they sell the product. Grainger put sales tax on my receipt, which they have to collect for the state of Michigan and forward to them.

Maybe if you just order through the web site, instead of going to a branch store, it will be OK. They still want a company name, which you can call what you like. Since they have a branch that is about 3 miles from here, I just went there instead of completing the order on line. Like I said before, I've gotten stuff from distributors many times. They have a lot of specialty stuff which you can find nowhere else. They may inform you that they do not deal with the general public, or not, but they never refused cash until now.
It isn't because dealing with the public is a hassle. The guy in front of me was a repair person with the right credentials. He was there when I came in and when I left 20 minutes later, fretting about some 6 inch fan blades he could not find an exact match for, and running the sales guy ragged looking through catalogs and bringing parts to him for his perusal, while he, the customer, was on the cell phone calling other places, who were checking on parts too. He was in rumpled work clothes, looked like he had been up all night, and did everything in slow motion. It was kind of funny actually. Another guy was returning 4 mammoth 8 foot florescent lighting fixtures that were crushed in shipment. He was there the entire time too, because he had changed his mind about what fixtures he really wanted and was checking through the catalogs.

Possibly if you know the exact part number (Dayton 2C646A), a hardware or heating/cooling store will special order it for you (with a mark up, no doubt.). Hardware stores have loads of special catalogs. They may have a Dayton catalog.

[Froggy1]

Part of my day job is doing maitenance on pellets stoves which use fabco and comair rotron motors. I can tell you this......It is WAY more harmful to over oil than it is to under oil. There are a lot of fans out there running for 10 years or more with never being oiled. Granted they won't see the hours a PC blower will, but still a testament. Turning the voltage down will only extend the life too. As for actual oiling, once a year is all that is required. The answer to where you oil is this; there are 2 little rubber "plugs with holes" on the actual motor. Apply 1 drop per hole once per year. The oil that works best is a synthetic sewing machine oil. Hope that helps some of you. Wow I guess my 9yrs in that industry is paying off LOL

[Hoot]

Here's the skinny.

On the 2C646, yes the brush noise will drive you batty over time. What I found was that the stiff wires coming from the brushes conduct the sound out of the motor housing like guitar strings. I cut mine off just outside the motor and replaced them with some extra limp, rubber insulated, high voltage wire. It helped some, but not as much as I had expected. So, being the tenacious person I am, I disassembled the motor and ran the rubber insulated wires all the way to the brushes. It made a BIG difference. The brush noise is not entirely gone, but attenuated to a tolerable level, unless you have drank too much coffee. ;D

Not to be myopic, I bought the Dayton AC motor (only) that goes on the 2C647 and gave it a try. Voila, no brush noise. That's the only good news. Since you can't control the speed on an AC motor (much), it runs like a "raped ape". Excellent cooling but lots of wind noise. That also is the only good news. Being an AC motor, it gives off AC hum, which I have not been able to dampem regardless of pads and dampener bars. Now, it's a backup for the DC motor. Under the desk, sitting on a swatch of carpet, the brush noise if less bothersome. It's cooler down there also.

Lastly, regarding oiling. When I had the 2C646 DC motor apart, I noticed that there was no lubricant on the sintered bronze sleeve bearings. I put some Molydenum Di-Sulfide based grease on the shaft and thrust washers at both ends. That did not do squat for the brush noise, but made me feel better. The nice thing about that kind of grease is that once it dries up, it leaves a coating of MOS2 behind, which is an excellent dry lubricant. The stuff is ornery'er than cat **** though. It's like the black equivalent to the white heat sink grease. You get some on you and before you know it, you're ready to do Al Jolson impressions.

Hoot

[surlyjoe]

non detergent motor oil is availible at hot rod supply houses , they use it to break in new racing engines. something about wanting the varnish to fill the hatching marks or something , but thats where to find it , its like 3$usd a quart

[CalCoolage]

So, being the tenacious person I am, I disassembled the motor and ran the rubber insulated wires all the way to the brushes. It made a BIG difference



To say the least, you are amazing, Hoot.

Maybe the wire from some old-timey meter test leads is limp enough. The wire has very fine strands and the stuff has no shape of its own.

I tried to to disassemble the blower too (to coat it with sound deadener), but I haven't been able to get the squirrel cage set screw loose. The little hex wrench bends like it is going to break and I think I'm going to strip the teensy hex slot and never get it off. Maybe more time for the "liquid wrench" to soak will do it. How did you manage it, Hoot?

Too bad about the AC motor hum. A few hours of 60Hz sound make me feel like its drilling through my skull.

I don't know enough about motors to say why or how, but some AC motors can be varied from 0 to full speed. Variable speed drills for instance, or the Dremel tool. And they do sell motor speed controls, usually controlled by a foot peddle. The usual AC motor though seems to be approximately synced to the AC line frequency (60 cycles per second gives 3600 revolutions per minute) or some fraction/multiple of it. Just lowering an AC motor's voltage to cut its speed can cause it to overheat and burn out.

I did a little internet hunting for blowers like the 2C646A and there does not seem to be
anything quite in that groove. The small blowers usually spin too fast be to be quiet. Larger ones put out too much cfm and are too expensive. As the CFM goes down they reduce the size of the cage instead of the rpm. Evidently the engineers design for a higher tolerable noise level.

I happened on an in-line blower at Home Depot. It's for clothes drier venting and hooks to clothes drier hose on the input and output. It's a little bigger than drier duct hose. The RPM and noise is unknown, but since the thing could be located elsewhere, this type of device has some potential for low noise, IAC. The blower could be in a sound-proofed box, for instance. Unfortunately $150 is WAY out of line for what it does, I'd say. The high price could be because of the high temp it is designed to operate under. Maybe something like this somewhere is say $60 and that has the right cfm.

The Dayton 2C646 is rated at 170cfm (135cfm for the AC version). Any guess at what the rating of a blower that puts out the right cfm at its standard operating speed should be?

[CalCoolage]

Part of my day job is doing maitenance on pellets stoves which use fabco and comair rotron motors. .... Wow I guess my 9yrs in that industry is paying off LOL
Thanks for the oiling info. What happens? Does the oil get on the wires and cause shorts?

Are any of these motors quiet blowers that put out about 80 cfm, and cost less than $75?

[Hoot]

CalCoolage (Jul 02, 2001 09:04 a.m.):

Maybe the wire from some old-timey meter test leads is limp enough. The wire has very fine strands and the stuff has no shape of its own.


That is exactly what the wire is. I have two sizes here. ~20ga and 14ga. I used the ~20ga.

I tried to to disassemble the blower too (to coat it with sound deadener), but I haven't been able to get the squirrel cage set screw loose. The little hex wrench bends like it is going to break and I think I'm going to strip the teensy hex slot and never get it off. Maybe more time for the "liquid wrench" to soak will do it. How did you manage it, Hoot?


A strong Allen Wrench. Yes, it does feel like something is gonna snap, but it does break free with enough torque. They probably loctite it.

I don't know enough about motors to say why or how, but some AC motors can be varied from 0 to full speed. Variable speed drills for instance, or the Dremel tool.


FWIW: Those are DC motors with built-in rectifiers and speed control circuits.

The Dayton 2C646 is rated at 170cfm (135cfm for the AC version). Any guess at what the rating of a blower that puts out the right cfm at its standard operating speed should be?


With my MC-462A, I do not realize any greater cooling above 8 to 9V DC, using the 2C646, so there is a practical limit, depending upon the HS. I do not have an anemometer, but I will see how long it takes to inflate a "lawn and leaf" bag. Should be able to calculate the cfm. Needless to say, you do not need the full 170cfm. What I am researching is an AC fan with the same form factor (mounting holes and shaft) that spins slower. Basically, you choose either 3600 or 1800 rpm. I'll see if there is a 900rpm available. I bet that would be a good compromise.

Hoot

[Paul -The Mad Hatter]

I saw HOOT's article a while back and got interested in trying it, but i saw that the blower was kinda big. (by the way hoot, how heavy is it? I may be still interested)

I am now working on a 60mm to 120mm mod (i'm going to buy a 120mm fan rated @ 125cfm) and if you like i could write an article and tell you how it turned out.

[Hoot]

The shipping weight is 4 pounds. It feels like 3-1/2 to 4 ponds. It does not make your case want to tip over, if that was what you were worrying about.

I'd like to see an article for a 60mm fan footprint HSF with an adapter and a 120mm fan on it. Especially when the tower is standing upright and that whole assembly is hanging sideways.

Hoot

[CalCoolage]

pauldogg (Jul 02, 2001 03:52 p.m.):
I saw HOOT's article a while back and got interested in trying it, but i saw that the blower was kinda big. (by the way hoot, how heavy is it? I may be still interested)

I am now working on a 60mm to 120mm mod (i'm going to buy a 120mm fan rated @ 125cfm) and if you like i could write an article and tell you how it turned out.

In addition to what Hoot said, it is not as heavy as it looks. 80-90% of the weight seems to be in the rather compact motor. OTOH the motor must be very heavy duty judging by its heft. It also must be pretty efficient. Running at 5 volts for an hour, it feels distinctly cool. Almost all of the energy must go into the breeze, not into heating the motor. The way the airflow is arranged, the motor is not in the airflow and its heat does not go into the air stream, nor does the air stream cool the motor.

I'd love to see that article. Seeing what one guy did, the transition seems to have to be kind of long, more than 2 or 3 inches, in order to avoid generating so much back pressure as to make it perform much worse than a 60mm fan.

[CalCoolage]

Hoot (Jul 02, 2001 11:54 a.m.):
FWIW: Those are DC motors with built-in rectifiers and speed control circuits.

[Hoot

WOW. That is cute ... I mean cool.

I still couldn't get the dang set screw loose. Maybe if I took to riding a horse and spinning rope to build up my strength like Hoot .... Then, in my frustration, a flash of wonderous brilliance struck me (like it so often does :) ). Maybe I could damp the wires' noise without disassembling the motor. I got my roll of Mortite rope caulk. It's like kids' modeling clay, but it comes coiled up like a rope. In its way, this stuff is as great as duct tape. From the texture, I know it has got to damp sound. I molded it around and between the wires and stuffed in into the exit hole. Oola! (French I think.) The grating sound went way down. I put another gob around the wires about a half inch away just for overkill. I can't judge how this is compared to the wire mod, but what it did is practically miraculous. Now it just makes a muffled swishing sound. I think it works by either blocking the sound from coming out of the hole, or decoupling the sound transmission to the motor case. I still can feel with my fingers the wires vibrating. Maybe if I wrapped them in something.

I still think deadening the vibration from all the sheet metal surface has some potential since you can feel it vibrating too.

[KILLorBE]

Hoot (Jul 01, 2001 10:41 p.m.):
When I had the 2C646 DC motor apart, I noticed that there was no lubricant on the sintered bronze sleeve bearings.
Hoot

There's no need to oil these sleeve bearings cuz they are (most likely) self-lubricating.

I put some Molydenum Di-Sulfide based grease on the shaft and thrust washers at both ends. That did not do squat for the brush noise, but made me feel better. The nice thing about that kind of grease is that once it dries up, it leaves a coating of MOS2 behind, which is an excellent dry lubricant. The stuff is ornery'er than cat **** though. It's like the black equivalent to the white heat sink grease. You get some on you and before you know it, you're ready to do Al Jolson impressions.

I've got oil like that (contains MoS2 & petroleum) I use it for the ball bearings of my modified motors, and it sure is some NASTY TOXIC stuff.

[Paul -The Mad Hatter]

Hoot (Jul 02, 2001 09:42 p.m.):
The shipping weight is 4 pounds. It feels like 3-1/2 to 4 ponds. It does not make your case want to tip over, if that was what you were worrying about.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah thats what i was worrying about. How far does the blower stick out once your all done?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd like to see an article for a 60mm fan footprint HSF with an adapter and a 120mm fan on it. Especially when the tower is standing upright and that whole assembly is hanging sideways.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sensing a bit of sarcasm here.
-----------------------------------------------------

Hoot

[Hoot]

Just a little bit of concern, not sarcasm. Those socket lugs can only take so much.

The blower, at its greatest distance, sits 7-1/2 inches out from the side. Look at the final view picture in the article, for a sense of perspective.

Hoot

[Mord-Sith]

bump this is a great topic

[CalCoolage]

BlakeN (Jul 04, 2001 12:12 a.m.):
bump this is a great topic

After 3 days of "liquid wrench" and trials I still hadn't managed to get the teensy set screw loose. Hoot says he does NOT ride a horse , so I can't claim my failure is due to that. (But the original Hoot did ride a horse, didn't he?) So I grabbed the SOBn little wrench with pliers and put my whole arm into the effort. The flimsy wrench twisted a quarter turn, like a torsion bar, without the screw budging in the least. But I wasn't about to be deterred. I gave a healthy grunt and the threw my whole body into it. Then a loud POW! and no resistance at all. In that instant I knew I had busted something and was filled with remorse over my impetuous nature. I should have given it a fourth day. What would I do now? But no, the screw had turned, undamaged, and the blower cage slipped off easily. A testimonial to the Loctite corporation, I guess. Who knew some fool would actually want to take it apart?

Disassembling the motor only requires removing a couple of nuts. (no DANG Loctite!)

I see now why the brushes squeak so bad ; they are made out of copper. The only brushes I am familiar with are carbon (graphite?), which has some lubricating properties. The brushes only have wear marks on a part of their contact surface, so a couple of hours wear has not been enough to completely seat them.

The wires I planned to use are too fat - too much insulation- and don't look like they will go into the exit hole without squeezing, which may defeat the whole purpose. What I think I am going to do is gob around the rope caulk and see what it does. The real way to do this is to remount the brush holder platform with rubber instead of rivets, but I am not up to that.

Real life is interfering with my hobby and it may be a while before I can put more time into this.

[Hoot]

The brushes are not pure copper. They are a mix of copper and graphite, perhaps sintered. Still, that is not the genesis of the squeak. They slide somewhat loosely in their guides. My bet is they are vibrating against the guide walls, even under spring tension. Not that you can do a lot about it. They have to be loose enough in the guides to assure they won't seize up as they progress towards the rotor, with wear. Obviously, the motor design did not give much thought with regards to the brush noise, but then it was intended to run full-tilt. Under that condition, it's hard to hear the brushes over the rest of the noise. ;D
Kudos for your persistence on the set screw. That was how it went for me also. POP! If you pull the rotor out, mind the magnets. They're strong. It's a bit tricky expanding the brushes to reseat it also. Don't remount the end where the brushes are mounted, rotated 180 deg as the motor will run backwards then. That, having been said. Running it backwards a while helps break in the brushes evenly.
In case you're wondering, they did not go for a brushless design because of the current consumed by the windings. On the rare occasions when I have my system put back together and sitting under the computer table, the brush noise is not nearly as objectionable.

Hoot

[CalCoolage]

Hoot (Jul 04, 2001 01:37 p.m.):


>If you pull the rotor out, mind the magnets. They're strong.
For a while I thought there was some sort of mount holding the rotor in place.

> It's a bit tricky expanding the brushes to reseat it also.
Yes, you have to get the rotor by itself first. Then seat the shaft as best you can. Then use a narrow tool to pry each brush back in turn while wiggling the rotor; repeat until the commutator slips in between. Make sure you hold the shaft in place when you slip the armature over it, so it doesn't pull the rotor out and ruin all your effort.

> Don't remount the end where the brushes are mounted, rotated 180 deg as the motor will run backwards then
I was baffled for an hour wondering why the air flow was so feeble. Then I figured out the cage was going backwards. Then I tried to figure out how a DC motor knows which way its supposed to start up, but my feeble intellect could not untangle the mystery. There was only one thing I could try : rotating the brush end 180. I still don't get it.

I rerouted the red wire so that it did not contact the case, the idea being to decouple the vibration. I squished Mortite around the platform mounts and the exit hole bushing, using a small drill bit as a pusher. Then more Mortite all around in between the case and the brush platform. Then I molded a thin coat of Mortite around the red and black wires. The idea of this is to damp vibrations and resonances. It also adds mass, which lowers the amplitude of the vibration and decreases the resonant frequency, high frequencies being the most irritating.

I'm pleased with the result. It is silent compared to what it was, although in absolute terms, it is easily audible. It makes less noise than an isolation mounted 120mm 100cfm fan. I wanted to see how it was before I spray the rubberized automobile undercoating on the sheet metal. Since the motor cools itself through the case, I don't think its is a good idea to coat it with anything. The motor should be decoupled from the blower housing, but it also needs to be mounted very firmly, which limits how good the decoupling can be. Maybe some Mortite between the housing and the motor case will not all squeeze out.

You can lower the noise of a case fan by mounting it so it is decoupled from the case. I have my 120mm fan hanging from insulated number 14 electrical house wire.

[FishDog3]

What about making a box with sound insulation fot the blower to go into and puting a hole for entry and exit, than running duct fork to the case inlet. You sould even insulate the duct work to reduce noise and put a small inlet duct with a elbow in it that had some sound absorbing material to dampen the blower noise.

When I start tweeken I am a snowball rolling down that tall Tibeten mountin, haha. I usualy go way to far, so I'm glad I found this place, makes me feel at home.

[Froggy1]

CalCoolage (Jul 02, 2001 09:30 a.m.):

Part of my day job is doing maitenance on pellets stoves which use fabco and comair rotron motors. .... Wow I guess my 9yrs in that industry is paying off LOL
Thanks for the oiling info. What happens? Does the oil get on the wires and cause shorts?

Are any of these motors quiet blowers that put out about 80 cfm, and cost less than $75?

It doesn't cause shorts. My Understnading is the escess oil "gums up" and causs problems. Since I never "rebuild" blowers/fans I don't know for sure. Just been told by several who have more years on the job than I have been alive, so I trust their judgement.

The VAST majority of "blower/fan noise" is air movement/contact with the blades. As faras "quiet blowers" let me give you an example. On woodstoves teh most common blower is a 140-170 CFM "squirrel-cage" type blower that is pretty noisy when trying to watch TV in the same room. There is one woodstove company that uses a 700CFM fan that is WAY too big but when turned down to the 150 CFM range is almost silent. That is how you quiet them down. All the blowers we sell are in the 200 dollarrange. Not because they are worth it but because there are too many layers of distribution involved. Any 500-800 CFM fan running on AC can be plugged into a typical wall outlet and be spped adjusted by a rheostat. Hope that helps.

[CalCoolage]

Froggy (Jul 05, 2001 02:35 a.m.):
[.

>Any 500-800 CFM fan running on AC can be plugged into a typical wall outlet and be speed adjusted by a rheostat.

Since people are actually doing this, it must be OK. As mentioned before, I have always been told lowering the voltage causes it to overheat. The AC version of this blower (2C647A) only uses 60 watts and a current of .65 amps. That is well within what a light bulb uses, so I wonder if a light dimmer switch would work for adjusting the speed?

AC blowers are a lot easier to find than DC.

[Hoot]

I was toying with that idea myself. The best approach is a triac based Pulse Width Modulator. It varies the frequency of the AC and since the motor speed is sync'ed to the frequency, it can be varied that way. I did try lowering the AC voltage with a variac and though the motor speed varied a little, it was not enough to have an appreciable impact upon the noise.
Wall mounted bathroom fan speed controls can be gotten from Home Improvement stores. They use the PWM approach, but are no where near as inexpensive as light dimmers. I may pick up a light dimmer and give it a try this afternoon. Will let you know how it works out.

Hoot

[Froggy1]

CalCoolage (Jul 05, 2001 07:45 a.m.):
Froggy (Jul 05, 2001 02:35 a.m.):
[.

>Any 500-800 CFM fan running on AC can be plugged into a typical wall outlet and be speed adjusted by a rheostat.

Since people are actually doing this, it must be OK. As mentioned before, I have always been told lowering the voltage causes it to overheat. The AC version of this blower (2C647A) only uses 60 watts and a current of .65 amps. That is well within what a light bulb uses, so I wonder if a light dimmer switch would work for adjusting the speed?

AC blowers are a lot easier to find than DC.


They are partially right on both counts. Being fan motors are inductive loads, they will draw more cuurent and may overheat because of that. But they have small fans that go on the shafts of the motor to cool the motor to deal with this extra heat. Also I know that the actual motor part of 95% of the blowers controlled by a rheostat and used on wood/gas/pellet stoves are not your run of the mill motor. I will do a little research and find out what kind of motor they are using, because they must be using this type because it can handle being run as low as 50 volts AC for prolonged periods of time.