Shroud for Black Ice Extreme?

[kmfdm515]

Does anyone know where I can buy a shroud for a Black Ice extreme? All the shrouds I've found seem to be too big.

I'd make one myself, but I don't have any decent tools to cut sheetmetal.

[TonyMc]

The black ice extreme is not really meant to be used with a shroud so the only way to get one is to make it yourself. The black ice is designed to have the fan/s mounted directly to the unit. The four holes that are on the front and rear are where you need to mount the fan/s.

[DodgeViper]

Originally posted by FRAGN'STIEN
The black ice is designed to have the fan/s mounted directly to the unit. The four holes that are on the front and rear are where you need to mount the fan/s.

This is what is wrong with the BIX and why users of the BIX do not get good results. If you mount the fans directly to the BIX the center of the core does not get any air moving through the core. All fans have a dead spot due to the way the impeller is made. The best thing you can do is make shrouds that stand off of the BIX about 1" and then mount the fans. Not to mention your really restricting the fan or fans mounted directly.

I plan to use the BIX in my new system because of its size, but I will not mount the fans directly to the core. I will make shrouds similar to the ones I made for my Chevy Chevette core.

[Veland]

Making a shroud for BlackIce rads is easy! What you need to do, is to find your box of "odds and ends" where (if you are like me..) you have a lot of MB standoffs. You know, the little metal things with both threads and a hole for screws. These come in many different thread sizes, you need some that fit into each other. With me so far?

Use the mounting holes to screw a set of stand offs in, and continue with a new set into those. Continue until you have a stack of standoffs in your preferred height. I've got stacks of three, but using the "pro" radiator with two fans that equals a lot of stand offs..

Ok, then attach the fan on top with some case screws and it's nearly finished. Just find a nice looking, good quality tape and tape around the fan to close the gap. Result: Nice looking shround made in 5 minutes probably at no cost.

[BrianH2O]

DodgeViper

I would disagree with your statement. I am running an intel 2.66 oc'ed to 3.1 using 1.625V. Ambient is 21C, water is 27C in the res, CPU idle is 29C, and CPU running F@H is 32C. I doubt that a shourd would give me any better temps. The key to all this cooling is highflow and a good block, IMHO.

I also have a separate loop over my Radeon 9700pro oc'ed to 350Core/340Mem. Temps are 28Idle and 32 during Gameplay or benchmarking. The shim has been removed.

My high water temp is an indication that I am extracting a lot of heat, but my difference between the CPU and the water would indicate that my 2 BIX's are doing a great job without a shroud.

All you have to do is tape up the gaps between the fan and the BIX so all air is forced thru the BIX.

My setup
Loop1 .... Res--> Via Aqua 1300--> Bix --> DDMaze3-->res
Loop2 .... Res--> Via Aqua 1300--> Bix --> DDGForce4-->res

There is a Panaflo 120MM Medium on each BIX.

[truble]

BrianH2O good numbers, but what would happen if you added a shroud? The noise might drop a bit as you would not have so much air moving right against the rad blades, and the air might have a better chance to equally flow around more of the rad surface area.

It would be really interesting if you tried it and compared your existing temp readings against a shroud installed system.

I am waiting for delivery of my BIX this week and will also test the same. Might be interesting if we both came up with numbers
Abit It7 Max 2
P4 2400 oc to 2700
Corsair 3200 cas 2 ram

[BoB NaPaLm]

another way would be to get another cheap 120mm fan (or two) and cut the bits off it leaving the outer frame of the fan. Couple this with the working 120mm and you have a perfect shroud. A bit expensive though ;)

[kmfdm515]

Originally posted by BrianH2O
I doubt that a shourd would give me any better temps.

Really? This (http://www.overclockers.com/tips1022/index02.asp) column I read said his shroud increased the cooling ability of the radiator by 40% (!)

Granted, it's not the same rad, but still something to think about.

[DodgeViper]

Guys, test your fans, better yet just take a look at the blade. Very simple to understand. Most 120mm fans have a center section that will measure over two inches. This two inches will not spin any air. If you mount the fan directly to the rad you have a dead spot. Furthermore you will decrease the fans ability to push or pull air. This is my current rad.....

[Skulemate]

Originally posted by BrianH2O
My high water temp is an indication that I am extracting a lot of heat, but my difference between the CPU and the water would indicate that my 2 BIX's are doing a great job without a shroud.

I'm not sure that I follow your logic. The way I'd read your temperatures is as follows: you're doing a great job of moving the heat away from your CPU into your water, but your rads are performing rather poorly. Keeping your water 6°C above ambient is no feat at all... suppose you did drop your water temperature by two or three degrees. Wouldn't you expect your block to also drop by about the same amount?

[BrianH2O]

(Sorry for the long post)


Skulemate

I am passing the water thru the rad just before the block, not after it. I am taking the temp in the res AFTER is has been heated by the CPU and GPU. The ideal place for me to take the temp would be after the rad before the blocks. Given that my water is only 4C cooler than my CPU at load should indicate either or both

- The BIX is effectively cooling the water by a few deg C without a 1" shroud
- I have very high flow thru the blocks so that the water does not have time to heat

(I would say both)

truble

The BIX already has a "small" clearence between the fan and the core. I believe it is 1/4". I agree with every one that ZERO clearence is bad. I am suggesting that maybe very little is needed. Maybe the guys who make the BIX have done studies that indicated that 1/4" shroud would be ~90% (I am making this up for argument sake) as effective as a 1" shroud.

With the air tubulence from the Panaflo and resistance of the BIX, I am achieving much more coverable that was normally thought possible. I use to be a BIG believer in the shrous also. My first setup was as follows

Pananflo Med pulling
1" shroud
BIX
1" shourd
Panaflo Med pushing

2nd try
Bix
1/2" shroud
Panaflo pusing

Unfortunely, they were all with different CPU/MB combo so no comparison could be made.

[Skulemate]

Brian

Still, how much is the water being heated as it passes through the blocks? Maybe 0.5°C for a decent flowrate... say 1°C for arguments sake. Still, that's water 5°C above ambient as it enters the blocks. All I'm getting at is that there's some room for improvement in this radiator, and this may be solved by using a shroud as DodgeViper suggests. From what I've read these BIXs need a lot more air pushed through them in order to be effective, and removing just over 40% of the total fin area through dead sopts can't help things either.

Please don't take this as a shot at your setup, sounds like you have a nice rig there. I simply disagree with your conclusion that the BIX doesn't need a shroud for maximum performance.

[Cathar]

Originally posted by Skulemate
Brian

Still, how much is the water being heated as it passes through the blocks? Maybe 0.5°C for a decent flowrate... say 1°C for arguments sake

Actually it's more like 0.18C for decent flow rates and a very hot CPU (~100W). You'd have to have extremely bad flow rates to be getting up to a 1C difference from inlet to outlet of the water-block.

Water has a specific heat capacity of 4200J/KgK. Good flow rates are around the 8lpm mark.

That means per second there's 133ml of water flowing through the block. Water has a density of around 1.0, so this totals to 4200 * 0.133 *1.0 = 560 J/K of thermal capacity per second.

Therefore the water will rise by the (Wattage / 560) C as it passes through the block.

So, for a 100W CPU, that comes to 100/560 = 0.178C for 8lpm (~2gpm) flow rates

Just so you know the math/physics behind it.

[Skulemate]

Thanks Cathar, 'tis nice to have numbers besides my ballpark guess. Helps me make my point too ;).

[Cathar]

Originally posted by Skulemate
Thanks Cathar, 'tis nice to have numbers besides my ballpark guess. Helps me make my point too ;).

I agree about the BIX. Back when I started out I was all enamoured with it, and then was wondering why my water temps were 5-8C above ambient depending on load and overclock. I tried many things, even resorting to screaming fans, which then annoyed me 'cos I thought that water-cooling was meant to be quiet.

Eventually I gave up on it and grabbed a large Toyota Camry heater-core and made up my own shroud, and water temps then plummeted to 1-1.5C above ambient when the CPU is idle, and 2-2.5C above ambient when under load, depending on fan speeds and overclock.

The BIX does need a shroud to get better performance from it, but there isn't a LOT to gain, maybe 10-15% lower water temps if you're lucky.

[BrianH2O]

Don't worry Skulemate, I am not taking this personally! This is actually a fun discussion. I like my system very much and I believe the cooling to be very effective.

Cathar, are you the Cathar of Ausie land?? If so I am honoured.

But isn't everyone's water temp are the CPU around 3~8C higher than amb? If so, then everyone must have flow problems?

Also, isn't flow a trade off between keeping the water in the rad long enough to get cool but fast enough to get thru the block without heating too much? I do not even pretend to uderstand the math/physics behind it. Now, my ViaAqua 1300 is rated for 395GPH which is 4.9 GPM. In order for my water temps to raise say 5C then trying to get my flow rate woulb be

100/x = 5C.... x = 20 i believe

Then my flow would be
4200 * x * 1 = 20 ... x = .0047 ml /sec
That would be a very low value of .07gpm = 4.24 gph. That is like 1/100th of my pump's rating. Did I calculate this wrong?

Now I believe that I am putting out a lot of heat (wattage). Just as much or more that a standard XP 2200+. Yet my friends WC rig has it running at 45C full load where as mine is 32C. Does the heat speader on the P4 make that much of a difference in cooling?

As for the shroud, I am just suggusting that any space will do. It just seems too take up too much room with shroud. The Panaflo is 38mm, the BIX is 42mm(/). A 1" shroud would give you a depth of 3" which is getting pretty thick for most cases.

[DodgeViper]

Hey Cathar, you must have your H/C/fans mounted outside of the case?

[BrianH2O]

oops, was writing my pervious reply

The BIX does need a shroud to get better performance from it, but there isn't a LOT to gain, maybe 10-15% lower water temps if you're lucky.

That's what I have been trying to say all along. The benefits of a shroud to a BIX is very mirginal at best. For heater cores, they are a must. The depth required to also questionable. Is 1" that much better than 1/4" then 5".

The cooling benefits of CPU being 1~2C over amient versus 5C or even 10C is a matter of personal pride and preferance. As long as I do not have a 7000rpm Delta singing to me, I am most happy. I can now here the footsteps in CS (LOL)

[Skulemate]

My temperatures are about three degrees above ambient, using a 6" square heatercore and a Panaflo low. Also, your calculated flow rate isn't correct...

For a system at equilibrium, the temperature in is equal to the temperature out. That means if the water is drawing in the 100W from Cathar's example the radiator is dissipating 100W as well. Also, this occurs at a temperature defined by the components in the system, such that the temperature rise in the waterblock for the system flow and heat load is the same as the temperature drop in the radiator (which will likely be a function of the surface area of the radiator, the inlet temperature, the flow rate, and the airflow through the fins...).

One more thing... the belief that you want to have low flow through the rad in order to improve heat transfer is not correct... it relies on convection in order to transfer the heat from the water to the metal of the core just as the block does, and one of the parameters that convection is dependent on is the velocity of the fluid (i.e. higher velocity allows for better convection).

[Cathar]

Originally posted by BrianH2O
Cathar, are you the Cathar of Ausie land?? If so I am honoured.


Yes, that's me (*grins and blinks eyes*)


But isn't everyone's water temp are the CPU around 3~8C higher than amb? If so, then everyone must have flow problems?

Also, isn't flow a trade off between keeping the water in the rad long enough to get cool but fast enough to get thru the block without heating too much? I do not even pretend to uderstand the math/physics behind it. Now, my ViaAqua 1300 is rated for 395GPH which is 4.9 GPM. In order for my water temps to raise say 5C then trying to get my flow rate woulb be

100/x = 5C.... x = 20 i believe

Then my flow would be
4200 * x * 1 = 20 ... x = .0047 ml /sec
That would be a very low value of .07gpm = 4.24 gph. That is like 1/100th of my pump's rating. Did I calculate this wrong?


Yes, two totally different things here.

The radiator's performance is proportional to the temperature of the coolant above the temperature of the air. The higher the difference, the greater the cooling effect.

Now a theoretical radiator may provide say 10W of cooling performance per 1C of difference between the air and the coolant.

Now let's say your CPU is pushing 70W of heat into the system (real watts eh - probably equates to around 110W according to Radiate), and the water starts off at ambient temperatures.

When the water is at ambient, the radiator does no cooling, so 70W of heat is being pumped into the water, and the radiator removes 0W. So the water warms up. Some time later the water will have warmed up by 1C, so now the radiator is supplying 10W of cooling, while the CPU is still pushing 70W of heat into the water, for a net gain of 60W, so the water heats up more.

This goes on until eventually the cooling performance of the radiator matches the CPU heat production, and the system reaches what's known as equilibrium.

It's not a case of the CPU adding 7C to the water, and the radiator subtracting 7C. It's a case of the water being 7C above ambient because that's where the radiator's cooling performance matches the CPU's heat. The actual temperature differences in the system will be say 6.9C water temps after the water leaves the radiator, and back to 7.0C again after the water leaves the waterblock.

Hope that clears it up.

[Edit: Skulemate already answered about the flow-rate thing through the radiators - higher flow rate is better as it provides for increased thermal convection - which is good]

[Buzzdog]

I have been considering the BI Xtreme. One for its compact size, and two for its nice looks. I am only planning on using it for a water block on my GPU/Northbridge/Hardrives. I am going to be using a Prometia for the CPU. I was thinking though about the shroud delima though. Could you use a 90mm or a 80mm fan, and make a shroud for it?? That would allow you to move the fans off of the radiator and focus the air completely on the core??

Just a thought.

Buzzdog

[BrianH2O]

Thanks Cathar. I understand now.

Since my PC is always on all the time running F@H, my true equilibrium is around 27C.

So, I am probably achieving fairly good flow rates, but my rad cannot handle all the heat at ambient. I still think my cooling solution is fairly efficient?

We also have to include all heat sources. I have 2 ViaAqua 1300 which give off a fair amount of heat. I am cooling both the CPU and GPU.

Now getting back to the original question, will a shroud help a BIX?

My opinion is very little and as, Cathar stated, maybe 10~15%. So if you have the desire to build one, then by all means do so. In my case, as 15% saving in water temp over ambient (6C) would be around .9C best case. I do not think it would make any difference to the overall performance of my system.

Thanks all, I have learnt some new things.