R350 and Rv350 ............ Taped Out

[Cowboy X]

If this is true then the nv 30 is in alot of trouble ! This is over at xbitlabs and www.anandtech.com :

" R350 graphics processor is based on the R300 architecture, but with certain optimisations that allow higher core-clock speed. According to rumours, the R350 VPU incorporates 8 rendering pipelines with two texture units per pipeline, hence, there will be sixteen TMUs in this chip. Graphics cards powered by the R350 VPU will be equipped with DDR-II memory with 256-bit bus. Actual products powered by the upcoming processor will appear in Spring 2003.
RV350 VPU is said to be the next-generation mainstream offering and will also based on the R300 architecture. There is no information about its technical specifications, though, some expect it to show performance comparable to than that of the RADEON 9700. Given thinner manufacturing process and simplified architecture, the RV350 should be cheaper compared to its elder brethren with equal performance. We can expect the mobile version of the RV350 to be available shortly after the release. The availability timeframes of the part are unknown "

Edit : Inquirer link http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=6661

Xbit http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/story.html?id=1039657263

[Ghost68]

damn sounds like the geforce fx is allready showing its age :)

[PhobMX]

Originally posted by Ghost68
damn sounds like the geforce fx is allready showing its age :)

lol, okay, forgit about gffx and r9700, i want rv350 ;) my current card can hold

[Ghost68]

lol now i kinda wish i woulda waited hehe

[JCLW]

I heard they had working 0.15 R350 silicone in the third week on Nov. :)


Have you guys seen this (http://www.xbitlabs.com/video/radeon9700pro-overclocking/)??? A 9700pro at 450/800! :eek:



- JW

[Morbid]

Originally posted by Ghost68
lol now i kinda wish i woulda waited hehe

Yeah, but.. if you go by that way of thinking.. you'll always be waiting. There's always something "just around the corner" that's bigger and better. That R9700 will last you quite some time i'm sure. I use to have a Ti4200, but then realized as much as I gamed... I didn't need it. So I traded it for a GeForce3 Ti500 (other parts were traded as well to make it all come out even).

I like the sound of the upcoming R350, but.. we'll see how it performs against the GeForce FX once they're both out. I want the new GeForce FX, but I also want a car (which i'm currently saving for)... if I were to get a GeForce FX... I would wait until November-ish just so there would be better revisions out and more competition. Did I mention I want a car? :p I'll probably eventually downgrade my whole computer to something I can just use to surf the web and listen to music on, with the occasional game or two (i.e. Doom 3). :)

[Wraith]

Hopefully my 9000 non pro can hold that long :-( by cheaper, what do you mean? Sub 200 dollars mabe???????? *crosses fingers*

[R0CK3TM4NN]

Niiiiice

*rubbing hands with anticipation*

Things are just looking better and better for my next computer that I'm going to be spec'ing out and building around May/June of 2003. I'm already starting to save up for this beast.

Course, I probably shouldn't even begin to think about this computer until atleast march of next year, when technical problems are discovered/solved.

[krag]

I'm gonna get the Gf FX 5800 Ultra (stepup program) for basically free. If it does turn out that the R350 beats it then i will probably use the ATI trade in program that they are advertising on their webpage. I just want the best when it is available. If its NV or ATI.

[Darkseid]

well i think ATI is really pushing hard

[mateo]

Like people have said, while this sounds ubercool :), for regular video cards there's always something around the corner. What caught my eye, though, was a MOBILE version of the RV350. Bout time for some gaming goodness in laptops.

[Rav]

Hmm figure they will reach a similar core clock speed to FX, but have double the memory bandwidth, and probably cost the same. :drool:

-Rav

[Penguin4x4]

Originally posted by JCLW




Have you guys seen this (http://www.xbitlabs.com/video/radeon9700pro-overclocking/)??? A 9700pro at 450/800! :eek:



- JW

OPPainter @ Xtreme Systems has his @ 512, :D:D:D

But 800MHz on 2.8ns is niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiicce...

[nealric]

0.15 R350 silicone

Its silicon- silicone a jelly like substance that is used as a sealant. :D

[mateo]

Originally posted by nealric


Its silicon- silicone a jelly like substance that is used as a sealant. :D

Hey, then no condensation worries :)

[krag]

Iquirer:
What is new is that both the R350 and the RV350 have already taped out with their production partner TSMC, which did not do quite as good a job with their friend Nvidia.

If this is true, and ATI already has thier 13micron gpu taped out...WHAT THE HECK IS NVIDIAS PROBLEM? Isn't Nvidia quite a bit bigger than ATI? I mean ATI is doing something good...real good to get thier 13m gpu through as quick as they have.

[PhobMX]

Originally posted by krag
Iquirer:


If this is true, and ATI already has thier 13micron gpu taped out...WHAT THE HECK IS NVIDIAS PROBLEM? Isn't Nvidia quite a bit bigger than ATI? I mean ATI is doing something good...real good to get thier 13m gpu through as quick as they have.

i believe history is about to repeat itself... i could believe one trip, but two straight ones are too much for any company...

[csu]

heh I don't care. I'll be getting r9700 in a few days so I can ACTUALLY START playing games. :D

[SemiCycle]

Originally posted by csu
heh I don't care. I'll be getting r9700 in a few days so I can ACTUALLY START playing games. :D

I'm in that boat with you. I was going to water cool my 8500LE, but me and the guy I was buying it from had a shipping mishap. So I ordered myself a nice christmas present. (9700 PRO)

:D

[krag]

Originally posted by Darkseid
well i think ATI is really pushing hard

yeah, they sure are....you gotta respect good effort. For the last 3 years I have been a diehard NV fan, but....it sure doesn't seem like they are trying very hard to give the public what they want. You can't say that about ATI...these boys are working thier @$$*$ off to get thier product up and out the door to us...the consumer. I respect hard work, effort, and a good product. Hey look at me everybody.....I'm a ATI FANBOY

[PhobMX]

it just sux they are starting to lock the clockspeeds of recent cards like r900 and r9500 :mad:

[Johnny Knoxville]

that Geforce FX better be worth something, otherwise Nvidia will join 3dfx in the history books and some other company will buy their technology and it will go on and on and on. :D

[SemiCycle]

Originally posted by Johnny Knoxville
that Geforce FX better be worth something, otherwise Nvidia will join 3dfx in the history books and some other company will buy their technology and it will go on and on and on. :D

I don't think that is the main cause of 3DFX's death. I think it started and ended with the purchase of STB. They just coulnd't be happy being a fabless company like Nvidia, they wanted a bigger piece of the pie. BAD MOVE. When they finally got around to realeasing their late and slow products, they also had to enjoy themselves a bigger slice of the LOSES as well.

[Jawsome]

Comon guys, lets get real, Nvidia's not stupid, they arent just gonna bow out, they know the R350 series will launch with ATI's trademark horrible drivers, and they will take advantage of that :).

[mirko_3]

Agreed.
But if those really are the specs of r350, then I suppose that anything less than 1Ghz FSB and 5Ghz Prescott will be the limiting factor... oh well, time to upgrade...

[SemiCycle]

Originally posted by Jawsome
Comon guys, lets get real, Nvidia's not stupid, they arent just gonna bow out, they know the R350 series will launch with ATI's trademark horrible drivers, and they will take advantage of that :).

I agree 100%. My previous comment was DIRECTLY related to 3DFX, not Nvidia.

[Jawsome]

Just a thought, but maybe ATI is focusing too much on the hardware side, maybe If they hammered out their drivers first instead of doing them as an afterthought, they'd have more luck in competing with nvidia, because sure you can always have the best card, but if you cant play 1/3 the good games and dont have options you should have available during month 1 of its release due to drivers, people get ****ed and buy something else.

[Overclocker550]

"was a MOBILE version of the RV350. Bout time for some gaming goodness in laptops."


Itll be the MX verson or something. clocked much lower too, otherwise we can burn our hands and recharge the battery every 20 min :mad: <------fire

[PhobMX]

Originally posted by Jawsome
Just a thought, but maybe ATI is focusing too much on the hardware side, maybe If they hammered out their drivers first instead of doing them as an afterthought, they'd have more luck in competing with nvidia, because sure you can always have the best card, but if you cant play 1/3 the good games and dont have options you should have available during month 1 of its release due to drivers, people get ****ed and buy something else.

ATIS CATALYST DRIVERS ARE GOOD!!!

Christ, not even nvidias drivers perform 100% well when a new card is released, it wouldnt take more than a month after r350 release to have stable and fast drivers (just the same time it took with r9700), but you could still play all games, not 1/3 as you state; pls backup that BS info.

edit Please watch the flaming -sss

[Overclocker550]

^^^^^^^^^was that a flame I smell? :eek:

[PhobMX]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
^^^^^^^^^was that a flame I smell? :eek:

why??? im just pointing his unbacked statements, like ati was crap or something... geez just accept that since r9700 ati has the lead, and i doubt gffx will own it that much

[SemiCycle]

Originally posted by Jawsome
Just a thought, but maybe ATI is focusing too much on the hardware side, maybe If they hammered out their drivers first instead of doing them as an afterthought, they'd have more luck in competing with nvidia, because sure you can always have the best card, but if you cant play 1/3 the good games and dont have options you should have available during month 1 of its release due to drivers, people get ****ed and buy something else.

Stop living in the past. Everyone agrees that ATI used to have driver issues, but the drivers they have been releasing for the past year are right on par with Nvidias drivers. EASY.

BTW, I think it is funny how no one dogged Nvidia too much about releasing drivers a couple months ago that they knew lowered image quailty. Yes, you got an increase in performance, but I don't think it was worth it. If ATI did that, every Nvidiot would have flamed them like crazy.

[raven]

Something new is always around the corner. like it would be REALLY nice to get a RV350 or the R350. but.. since im gettin my rig somewhere between december and february, ill just have to settle with the AIW 9700. but these new cards sure look good :)

ATI didnt have the greatest of drivers before, but it has been improving its cards extremely well, and so i think with these new cards, they will also put that effort into their drivers.

raven

[HotKoala]

Originally posted by Jawsome
Just a thought, but maybe ATI is focusing too much on the hardware side, maybe If they hammered out their drivers first instead of doing them as an afterthought, they'd have more luck in competing with nvidia, because sure you can always have the best card, but if you cant play 1/3 the good games and dont have options you should have available during month 1 of its release due to drivers, people get ****ed and buy something else.

ATi has a *much* better track record than NV on hardware. As least their videocards never had compatibility problems with non-intel chipsets, couldn't draw power from the AGP slot properly, et-c.

As for drivers, what exactly is so good about NV's? I mean aside from everyone saying they rule and that ATi's suck but really NV's bi-daily alpha/beta releases are useless. Fix one thing, break another. Play one game with one driver, play another game with another driver. Give up and go back to the old 30.XX drivers. Hardly an improvement.

If you take a look at stable solid MS certified drivers, ATi and NV's are the same.

[Maxvla]

i hope nvidia gets their act together. i really don't want an ATI product in my machine.

[Overclocker550]

Then buy a tnt ;)

[Maxvla]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
Then buy a tnt ;)
huh? http://members.directvinternet.com/maxvla/wtf.gif

[Overclocker550]

nvidia riva tnt 16mb or were u not born then :D

[Goo Kenson]

People, saying that Nvidia is anywhere close to ending up like 3DFX is sheer idiocy and lunacy, and probably anti-Nvidia sentiment.

You have no idea how sickeningly rich Nvidia is.

Not only their guaranteed financial security, but the fact that they are reputable and will not screw up a card release, ensures that they will be around for a long, long time.

They will release GFFX, and a lot of people will buy it. Eventually they'll release a new version, perhaps with 256 bit memory instead of 128 bit. When that happens, it will completely kill anything ATI will have out.

Then ATI will release something new, and Nvidia will release something new, and so on.

But once Nvidia has perfected the .13 and DDR2 technology (with the release of GFFX), they will have a much easier time getting out newer cards with newer technology VERY FAST. GFFX is a venture into a new kind of architecture with new types of memory and cores, and it has taken a long time, which is understandable. They'll get it right, and start pumping out phenomenal cards. ATi will, too.

Niether company will die. Not for a long time. If one of them does, however, it will be ATI.

[Johnny Knoxville]

I've had more driver problems with my ati 9700 pro and the radeon 8500 than a jail biatch, the new drivers they released don't even let me play RTCW on the 8500 for some reason, i guess i can't complain though when i get the 9700 for $30 :p
also the refresh rate on the 8500 when playing rtcw looks like below 60hz

<awaiting a geforce 4600 to hopefully cure problems>

[IR1]

Im looking to do the 3 company hop skip and jump.

My first real 3d Card was a 3dfx Voodoo 3 3000 cost me 150 bucks and was sweet up until this summer.

I swear I squeezed every penny out of that card, and now my little bro has it in his computer and enjoys gaming with it and it still chugging.

Now I got a ti500 and I am very happy with it but I have had it for about 5 months, and I think it may be time for an upgrade seeing that I got some extra cash... I think the 9500pro will be the next card for me.

The clock lock only bothers me a little... since I am sure someoen will bust it... I only overclock my ti500 for benchmarks and such... never leave it oced.. though I think I will start leaving it at a moderate OC untill I get my 9500pro... I was thinking after christmas would be a good time to get it.

So 3dfx.... Nvidia and now ATI? hmmm I think so.

Now if only Matrox got their act together and came out with something that worked better in reality than on paper.... it could really spice up the market... and then I could go with them in a year or so.... ya and monkeys fly outa my @$$

Who knows... we will have to see.

[PhobMX]

Originally posted by Johnny Knoxville
I've had more driver problems with my ati 9700 pro and the radeon 8500 than a jail biatch, the new drivers they released don't even let me play RTCW on the 8500 for some reason, i guess i can't complain though when i get the 9700 for $30 :p
also the refresh rate on the 8500 when playing rtcw looks like below 60hz

<awaiting a geforce 4600 to hopefully cure problems>

if you h8 your r9700 that much why dont you sell it thru the classfied to the highest bidder??? or ill help you get rid of it for $100... :D :beer:

Nothing personal man but lots of people would love to have your luck, i mean r9700 for $30!!! christ... have you considered the possibility of another component/program/config on your pc being the real problem??? Have you tried clean install??

[Darkseid]

Originally posted by Jawsome
with ATI's trademark horrible drivers, and they will take advantage of that :).

Well sorry but that is OLD NEWS, ATI`s drivers are good now
and i don`t think the match is going to be decided by the drivers

[Darkseid]

Originally posted by Goo Kenson
Eventually they'll release a new version, perhaps with 256 bit memory instead of 128 bit. When that happens, it will completely kill anything ATI will have out.

Then ATI will release something new, and Nvidia will release something new, and so on.

But once Nvidia has perfected the .13 and DDR2 technology (with the release of GFFX), they will have a much easier time getting out newer cards with newer technology VERY FAST. GFFX is a venture into a new kind of architecture with new types of memory and cores, and it has taken a long time, which is understandable. They'll get it right, and start pumping out phenomenal cards. ATi will, too.

Nvidia screw things bad with the gffx, why is so hard to understand!!
it will come out, it will be the fastest and it will be great, but it should be out a few months ago, there`s no "venture into a new kind of architecture with new types of memory and cores" they just couldn`t do it in time, period.
there`s nothing THAT great in this card that justifies the delay so plese stop using the features as an excuse.
and by the time nvidia has 256 bit bus ATI will surely have ddr2 and so... none of them is going to sat back while the other gets out a faster card. so i really don`t think that there will be another "completely kill anything" but i could be wrong (9700 vs 4600 anyone?)

[Jawsome]

Originally posted by PhobMX


why??? im just pointing his unbacked statements, like ati was crap or something... geez just accept that since r9700 ati has the lead, and i doubt gffx will own it that much

Dude when it came out SH*T was hittin the fan with alot of 9700 owners, I remembered reading like 10 posts in this forum of people with bad cards, or it was incompatable with something or other, didnt we also have a database of games it couldnt play for awhile there? Some of them were fairly recent. Also then there was the AGP voltage issue with a few motherboards that I never really heard the end of.

[Cowboy X]

The 9700 pro's first month was rough , but the game incompatibilities were pretty much sorted out within 2 very quick driver releases ( within about 2 weeks if i remember correctly ) .

The serious issue was with the AGP 8x and the KT400 and SIS 648 boards , some were fixed by bios updates to the motherboards some by the rev 1.3 (9700 pro which many still doubt exists ). But many reviewrs still can't get it to work in SIS 648 boards . There is also an issue with refresh rate in games but otherwise there are no other problems with the card . Those refresh rate problems occur in several Nvidia drivers as well BTW .

The AGP 8x problems are interesting since the 9700 pro was used to validate agp 8x in VIA's KT400 test boards , yet somehow gives trouble in the third party retail boards . Ppl still finger point but no one really has taken full blame as yet , it is fairly clear to me that the mb makers were in some way at fault esp since it seems to work well in the Nforce 2 .

[Jawsome]

Ya know I just realized you cant overclock the 9500........ Nobody told me that. Didnt know till I read that petition...


......



............


ROFL

[Overclocker550]

cliff notes:


ATI is cracking down on overclocking, hard! They may lock all future cards. Their drivers have improved, but are *still* inferior to Nvidia's! Talk about not being able to run it in many games, low refresh rates and no agp 8x!

[PreservedSwine]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
cliff notes:


ATI is cracking down on overclocking, hard! They may lock all future cards. Their drivers have improved, but are *still* inferior to Nvidia's! Talk about not being able to run it in many games, low refresh rates and no agp 8x!

Although I agree we still don't know why the R9500PRO can't be overclocked, may I suggest showing alttle patience, and waiting for an official word on why. It may just take a while before the good hackers figure out why, and may fix thier tweaking programs...or not.

Point being, you don't know...
:)

[PhobMX]

Originally posted by Jawsome
Ya know I just realized you cant overclock the 9500........ Nobody told me that. Didnt know till I read that petition...


......



............


ROFL

yeah laugh while you can... nvidia will follow the same path believe me...

i stated that r9700 problems are sorted, and sis users... well its their fault. Why buy a kickass video card and a CRAP mobo?? hell with em...

[Darkseid]

it wasn`t all ATI`s fault, VIA and SIS have they part too and who cares about AGP 8x anyway???

[Jawsome]

Originally posted by PhobMX

Why buy a kickass video card and a CRAP mobo?? hell with em...

Well when you get the case/430w power supply/Socket 478 mobo with a sis chipset off ebay brand new for like 70 bucks after shipping, its a damn good deal, my friend bought one of those. A mobo is a mobo, it should be able to run any agp card if it has an 8x or 4x or 2x agp slot. I wouldnt put all the blame on sis, thats just foolish.

[Evnas]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
cliff notes:


ATI is cracking down on overclocking, hard! They may lock all future cards. Their drivers have improved, but are *still* inferior to Nvidia's! Talk about not being able to run it in many games, low refresh rates and no agp 8x!

ATi is not cracking down on overclocking...i could understand y they would lock the 9500 Pros...since they already crep up on the 9700 Pro in performance. Believe me, ATi will allow their boards to be overclocked. At HardOCP, theres a thread where it looks like its locked in the drivers, NOT the BIOS, which means in a future driver update (my guess would be the DX9 drivers), we could have 9500 Pros running madly fast

[Darkseid]

let`s hope so, and WELCOME TO THE FORUMS

[Jawsome]

Why would they friggin lock the card now only to unlock it later, do you think ATI is some retarded child who likes to do random stuff for no apparent reason whatsoever?

[Johnny Knoxville]

Originally posted by Jawsome
Why would they friggin lock the card now only to unlock it later

because they want everyone to buy the 9700 ;) , this is the main reason why the locked the 9000 and 9500

[Jawsome]

Then why the hell would they come out with a 9500 right now, and at a budget price.

[Johnny Knoxville]

Originally posted by Jawsome
Then why the hell would they come out with a 9500 right now, and at a budget price.

to compete with the geforce 4400 and 4600

[Evnas]

Originally posted by Jawsome
Why would they friggin lock the card now only to unlock it later, do you think ATI is some retarded child who likes to do random stuff for no apparent reason whatsoever?

U want my guess? Once the GFFX is available in stores, ATi will come out with drivers that will raise performance on the 9700 Pro significantly. Until then, they dont want 9500 Pros running as high as 9700 Pros, which they obviously can do. I think once those new drivers are released, the 9700 Pro will show its real power, cutting the lead of the GFFX by quite a bit, and then when compaired to the 9500 Pro, it will look how ppl would expect (with the 9500 Pro not nipping at the heal of the 9700 Pro in performance)

[Overclocker550]

Looks like ATI is playing mind games by artifically crippling the 9700 pro with drivers. That said, will the 9500 drivers work on the 9700? I know Nvidia's detonator drivers will work on any geforce, even the geforce classic! I kid you not! hell, I have use the detonators on my tnt!


"Why would they friggin lock the card now only to unlock it later, do you think ATI is some retarded child who likes to do random stuff for no apparent reason whatsoever?"


Its all about economics. You have any idea how many people dont buy the ti500 or ti4600 and get the ti200 OCed to ti500 performance or ti4200 to ti 4400/4600 levels? ATI will make new drivers in 2 years that will let you OC the 9500, but at that time would be outdated so they dont have much to lose, but now they do.

[Gregory_WE]

If this thing really does come out in the Spring, then yes, FX may have some tough competition :) But... NV30 was supposed to be out by now at first, right? Is it out yet? No. You can expect similar things for the R350.

[Evnas]

Originally posted by Gregory_WE
If this thing really does come out in the Spring, then yes, FX may have some tough competition :) But... NV30 was supposed to be out by now at first, right? Is it out yet? No. You can expect similar things for the R350.

Not quite. Now that the .13 process has been worked out, it will be wasy for ATi to go to it...all it would need is a design change for the new die size, and then they can get it done. The NV30 isnt out yet cuz TSMC hadent got the .13 process going with good yeilds yes.

Originally posted by Overclocker550
That said, will the 9500 drivers work on the 9700? I know Nvidia's detonator drivers will work on any geforce, even the geforce classic! I kid you not! hell, I have use the detonators on my tnt!

The Cats work all the way back to the Riva cards too...whats ur point? heh. The Dets first came out for the TNT cards (notice a connection there? :rolleyes: )

[PreservedSwine]

Originally posted by Gregory_WE
If this thing really does come out in the Spring, then yes, FX may have some tough competition :) But... NV30 was supposed to be out by now at first, right? Is it out yet? No. You can expect similar things for the R350.

Doubtfull......

The R350 is a refresh of the R300. Same die size.

Read, the R350 is built on the .15 fab.
It is the RV350 that will be ATI's 1st .13 GPU....

Makes sense, getting their feet wet with a much less complicated peice of hardeware w/ the new process rather than a much more advanced foray into the unknown.....Then they can take what they've learned from their first go @ .13 and make the R400 a pretty tough customer.

I must say I doubted ATI's wisdom when I heard they were going to produce the R300@.15, but you've got to hand it to them. They've done more and better w/ .15 than anyone thought possible:)

Turned out to be the smartest move they've made in a while, and has had, and will continue to have long lasting effects in the w/ their competitors.

Going .15 has vaulted them a generation ahead of the pack....let's see how long they can hold on to it:)

[Cowboy X]

Many ppl need to realise that the problem with Nvidia was not just the poor yields at .13 but their adoption of very unrealistic release dates . They were giving release dates of November even before the thing taped out ! It was economically expedient for them to keep ppl waiting and putting off purchases . Since the 9700 Pro reached mainstream in Aug-Sep they have been telling ppl to wait . If they admitted earlier what I saw was an obvious Jan - Feb release it would appear late rather than late and delayed . They opted for the economical rather than ethical move .

I hope ATI doesn't do this , they are so far doing it the smart way via leaks and rumours , not official press statements ( propaganda ) . That way no one is really sure if there was a delay or not . When a product is officially announced and promised for a certain time I expect to see it . Keep your mouth ( officially ;) ) shut until you have concrete dates .

That said , I don't think the R350 and Rv350 will be late ( barring unforseen circumstances ) . They have taped out ( according to the article ) already and the R350 is just an update to the working 9700 pro . Not totally new like the NV30 , the 9700 Pro was totally new and reached market very quickly btw. The .13 Rv350 will be produced when .13 tech will be much better . Based on those points I suspect that these GPUs will be on time .

[mattspalace]

They useta make breast implants out of silicone too :D :D :D

[ReDeeMeR]

Originally posted by Morbid


Yeah, but.. if you go by that way of thinking.. you'll always be waiting. There's always something "just around the corner" that's bigger and better. That R9700 will last you quite some time i'm sure. I use to have a Ti4200, but then realized as much as I gamed... I didn't need it. So I traded it for a GeForce3 Ti500 (other parts were traded as well to make it all come out even).


Yeah but sometimes you can buy something on time and save alot of money, just like Ti4600, that card was top end for so long and it still is a high-end and you can play any game with max settings and sometimes with AA and AF.

[Stoanhart]

Originally posted by Jawsome
Comon guys, lets get real, Nvidia's not stupid, they arent just gonna bow out, they know the R350 series will launch with ATI's trademark horrible drivers, and they will take advantage of that :).

I didn't have a r300 right from the start, but the catalyst 3.0s are far from horrible. So far, I have only two issues (and I have a lot of games). In hitman 2, there is some VERY MINOR glitches with the shadows, and q3 based games seem to stutter. On ATI's site, it sais that all stutter problems in OpenGL based games are fixed in the next release. Other than that, everything works 100%

[Mag22]

I find it funny some here think ATI intentionally neutered the 9700 Pro in order to "whip it out" later. That makes NO sense at all. They could've shown the world their card was 3 times faster than the competition on the spot, and won everyone over. For the games I play at the resolutions I play them (1280x1024x32@85Hz) there's little difference between a GF4 and a 9700. I also can't see much difference when playing the FPS games I enjoy with FSAA/Aniso so I didn't bother considering a new card. I'd say the average difference was 10%, hardly worth the initial $400 sticker. If the 9700 had doubled my framerates, I'd have thought about it. Framerates = money, and as time progresses, the 200 FPS now will not be worth squat when the X brand card hits 400 on that same benchmark. Why would they wait?

I'm happy for those of you that think you've got your money's worth in your 9700's, but my opinion is the guys that bought the 9500's used their brain instead of their hormones. Look at the trends in cards - the second tier card is always the better deal. GF4 Ti4200,4400 nearly the equal of a 4600 , Voodoo 3 3000 nearly identical to 3500, ATI 9500 nipping the heels of the 9700, GF3 Ti200 half the price of the Ti500 for 85% of the speed. It has been that way and probably always will, especially when you overclock. I find this especially true now that it makes no difference in playability of the current crop of games.

[Stoanhart]

amen

[Cowboy X]

Mag22 ............... I must disagree on a few points . There is something to be said about buying the highend Vcard . One way to save $$$ and play your games as good as you feasibly can and for as long as you can is to buy the top or near to the top . This strategy works if the top card at a given time is ahead of the tech curve and promises alot with future releases . The 9700 Pro fit the bill for me and incidentally I got me a 20% of deal within the first month ( $319 :) ) I don't buy vcards often , so I buy for the long haul . $319 is much more economical over 1.5 yrs as far as I am concerned than getting 2 to 3 $150.00 cards ( don't forget shipping and taxes ! ). Furthermore I am assured of being able to run every game as it's meant to be played far longer than if I got a midrange card .

Often the $150 to $200 price range contains very good capable cards in the current games and in games close to release but this decreases over time .

Good examples of this are the ppl who bought the GF3 when it was very new and cost $399 . They could feasibly utilise every feature of every current game and do so until at least summer this year ( though without much FSAA ) , who can say that that wasn't a good purchase . The problem comes when one changes cards too often or buys a >$300 card just before it's reign is over at the top . Also every person is going to have their idea of what is sufficient performance at any given time . I feel that for example a GF3 level of performance ( as things are currently ) is the lowest I'd like to go at any given time . As it is right now the Gf3 can run anything , and well . Some other cards may almost do the same( speed wise ) such as Gf4MXs and and GF2 ultras but with reduced features . The way I see it , my 9700 Pro will have more than earned its cost by the time it begins to dip below full featured performance in next gen games . Furthermore I've had this highend performance for just about six months already !

So it is important to look at how much $$ you spend on Vcards over 1 to 2 years and what level of performance do you consider acceptable . And then ask how long will card A or B allow me to play at that level or above , then you ask , is it worth it ?

I know my answer .

[Overclocker550]

Originally posted by mattspalace
They useta make breast implants out of silicone too :D :D :D


Nowdays they use bra stuffings :eek:


"but my opinion is the guys that bought the 9500's used their brain instead of their hormones"


uh :o that isnt right, hormones(/) video cards. Maybe if your talking about chicks......


"ATI 9500 nipping the heels of the 9700"

about 60% the performance due to 1/2 the memory bandwith.......



as for price, why not just buy a $150 card every 3 years?

1. Just bought card=run every game in 1600x1200x32 bit color
2. a year later=run half the games in 1600x1200, the rest in 1280x960
3. two years later=run most games in 1024x768
4. finally after 3 years when your running games in 800x600 and getting less than 30fps its time for a new card!

[Cowboy X]

Once you set your minimum performance level then no problem . But I think 3 years is too much . I don't hink there is any $150 card which can last 3 years at a high performance level . At least there has never been one historically! For example if we look back to when the GF2 Ultra was the top dog , frankly there is no card that cost $150 then which is a good or decent performer now ( In my opinion ) . And that wasn't 3 years ago .

[krag]

Originally posted by Cowboy X
Once you set your minimum performance level then no problem . But I think 3 years is too much . I don't hink there is any $150 card which can last 3 years at a high performance level . At least there has never been one historically! For example if we look back to when the GF2 Ultra was the top dog , frankly there is no card that cost $150 then which is a good or decent performer now ( In my opinion ) . And that wasn't 3 years ago .

I agree with you cowboy. My GF4 ti-4600 could only get 20-25 fps in UT2K3...and that was with only 2x Ansio & Quincux AA @ 1024X768 I mean, dude that is way bogus. I don't shell out top dollar so I can play my games with limited features. And....according to "some others" here in this thread it is "stupid" to pay top dollar for the high end card just so the "stupid" person can run his/her games with all the eye candy tu7rned up. I can afford it! Why does that make me stupid? I like quality game play and quality image. If you can't afford and then you do buy it...then I would call that stupid. Don't judge others because you can't aquire the things that they can....:cool:

I dumped my ti-4600 for the 9700 pro and I am soooooooo glad I did. I have been playing "Enclave" at 1280X1024 with "EVERYTHING" turned up to max...yeah! 16x Ansio rocks! And I still get around 60-75fps in this game. I cannot get over how awsome it looks! My GF4 ti-4600 would chug so bad that the game would be unplayable. Not with my Radeon heh!

But to add to Cowboy x's original stament...a $150 card would never last for 3 years at a high performance level. That is true!

[Overclocker550]

"I agree with you cowboy. My GF4 ti-4600 could only get 20-25 fps in UT2K3...and that was with only 2x Ansio & Quincux AA @ 1024X768 I mean, dude that is way bogus."

The geforces take a big hit with fsaa, the radeons dont. run it 1600x1200x32 bit colors, all details max, forget fsaa and youll get like 100fps! I have that card, once I buy ut2003 I can run it at any mode(without fsaa) I wanted to, it wouldnt matter my eyes wouldnt see 100 to 300fps!

[Cowboy X]

Ecclesiastes 2:24

" There is nothing better for a man than that he should eat and drink , and that he should make his soul enjoy good in his labour . This also I saw , that it was from the hand of GOD . "

Ecclesiastes 3:22

" Wherefore I percieve that there is nothing better , than that a man should rejoice in his own works ; for that is his portion : for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him ? "

Ecclesiastes 4:19

" Every man also to whom GOD hath given riches and wealth , and hath given him power to eat thereof , and to take his portion , and to rejoice in his labour ; this is the gift of GOD "

Also see verses 18 and 20 .

Moral .................. It's a man's buisness how he spends his $$$ , advice is welcome but be careful with criticism and judgement .

[krag]

AMEN, brother!:D

[OC Noob]

Originally posted by krag
AMEN, brother!:D


lol


Another point, how long was it, 5 months after the 9700 pro was released that the mid ranged cards based on the R300 were on store shelves?

When I got mine there really wasn't a choice and I wasn't sticking with that Gf2 MX for another week.

I used to spend $100 every 6 months to a year. Now I spent $350 for a card that will last me 2 years. So maybe it works out to be a bit more expensive overtime, baybe a bit less, but I get to use a kickass card for that time instead of a middle of the road card ever 6-12 months.

Anyone with a good memory remember when the original voodoo dropped to $100?

Between that time I had, in order, Voodoo1 [$100], STB Velocity 4400 (TNT chipset) [$100], Voodoo3 2000 [$100], Hercules Prophet Gf2 MXII [$100].

I'm sure I've forgotten atleast 1 card.

Thank God I found these forums.


Oh yeah, I've got an 8500le I've been playing with, but thats going to be sold in a rig soon and hopefully a working 8500 soon, plus a host of other Gf3-4's that I've played with while upgrading/building systems for friends and relatives.

Time to stop rabling. Anyway, when did that Voodoo card get to about $100, between then and now I think I've spent about $500-$600 on low end graphics cards.

Again, thank God for oc-forums.com

[Kunaak]

since I already have a vacuum cleaner, and I don't need a new oven I'll hold off on the GFX unless it's really really better then the next ATI gen stuff, so I'll wait a few more weeks to see whats what.

but the R350 definatly looks better to me so far ;)

[krag]

yeah, I'm also holding off on GFFX. I have a free upgrade that I can use until March 2004. I was gonna use it on the GFFX...but...dang! All of the reviews pretty much ruined that chance. Now I will wait until November and use my upgrade on the NV35. Right now my 9700 pro is doing about 95% of what a GFFX does. So why not wait?

[Check-X]

The R350 and RV350 are looking to shape up real nice, good to see! heh I remember when the Voodoo 1's dropped to $100, I picked up a Realvision Voodoo1 to go with my ATI 3DXPression+.. it ran Quake2 like a dream on my 233mmx! hehe since then I've went through a slew of mid ranged cards myself.. TNT, TNT2, Radeon64MEG DDR and now my GF3Ti500... My next card will most likely be a RV350 of RV400 or at the lowest a 9700 AIW.. gotta love the TV-tuner etc :D

as far as someone saying about Nvidia going down like 3DFX.. I doubt it, Nvidia has VERY deep pockets and can probably afford to flop like this 5 or 6 times yet.. BTW I personally think 3DFX's downfall aside from their purchase of STB draining their pockets.. was the fact that they didn't release their GLIDE API for open use.. it HAD to be licensed.. this in turn decreased the amount of programs/games that cared to impliment it and in turn screwed themselves out of the market. Back in the Day GLIDE was SOO much better than D3D and easier to program than OpenGL so people loved it.. D3D became better and better, OpenGL revisions made it slightly easier to program, and they had more programmers who know how to program OpenGL.. so with that trend GLIDE started fading due to people working around licensing the API. I'm pretty sure the new GF-FX has NVBlur impliments.. I hope it does at least.. NVBLUR is said to be backwards compatible with all the great old GLIDE based games! no more GLIDE wrappers needed! :D

Although for Nvidia's sake I hope this new Gainward 7db cooling solution pans out.. because no one in their right mind will buy a 77db card! But only the people with money to burn will buy the GF-FX withouth waiting for at LEAST preview models of the R350 to hit w/benchmarks.

BTW someone was complaining about the ATI cards not being OC'able.. there are 3rd party drivers and BIOS fixes for that ;)

[Overclocker550]

"I used to spend $100 every 6 months to a year."


Dont forget the fact you can sell them on ebay and get most of that $$$$$$$ back. Low end cards devalue less than high end ones........


" yeah, I'm also holding off on GFFX. I have a free upgrade that I can use until March 2004."

why not use it on the r350? You havent much time!


"BTW someone was complaining about the ATI cards not being OC'able.. there are 3rd party drivers and BIOS fixes for that"


thats what causes instability! non official drivers!

[krag]

Originally posted by Overclocker550


" yeah, I'm also holding off on GFFX. I have a free upgrade that I can use until March 2004."

why not use it on the r350? You havent much time!



Beacuse, the upgrade only works with a certain 3rd party company and all they produce are NV cards. Besides...when the r350 comes out I am going to sell my r300 and upgrade AGAIN! Yeah! I just love that word....upgrade...mmmmmmmm....ahhhh yeeesssssss!

[Th0r]

About the Ati bad drivers....Ati have started to make better drivers...they spent over 9 million dollars in making better drivers latly....ATi has been 1 of the longest competitors....looks like they are going to win the battle...If Nvidia go bust Ati might buy Nvidia and no one will be able to compare to them....

[ReDeeMeR]

Originally posted by Excelsior
About the Ati bad drivers....Ati have started to make better drivers...they spent over 9 million dollars in making better drivers latly....ATi has been 1 of the longest competitors....looks like they are going to win the battle...If Nvidia go bust Ati might buy Nvidia and no one will be able to compare to them....


Now that would suck, monopoly = bad bad bad thing, everything including drivers and prices would go to hell.

Good thing it will never come true, you cant beat Nvidia.

[Evnas]

Originally posted by ReDeeMeR
Good thing it will never come true, you cant beat Nvidia.

Sure u can...we've seen it many times in today's market...their chipsets alone wont be able to support them if their Video Card market goes way down. It will just take time. I think the only REAL company u cant "beat" in the computer industry is Intel

[Darkseid]

agree with evans

[Overclocker550]

Originally posted by krag


Beacuse, the upgrade only works with a certain 3rd party company and all they produce are NV cards. Besides...when the r350 comes out I am going to sell my r300 and upgrade AGAIN! Yeah! I just love that word....upgrade...mmmmmmmm....ahhhh yeeesssssss!



upgrade to the geforceFX then sell asap on ebay, some poor sap may pay $500+ for it then buy a radeon9900 and a new cpu for the same money!

[moonunit]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
^^^^^^^^^was that a flame I smell? :eek:

Nope. Just a mobile R350 singeing your trousers.