AA totally worthless in games?

[dreamtfk]

Here's my setup

AthlonXP 1.5
768mb ddr
PNY Ti4400
WinXP

Game: BF1942

My normal FPS floats in the 90 area but the minute I turn on AA to even 2x it drops to 40's! I don't know what's going on but my system should well be able to handle this. It does the exact same thing with Anistropic Filtering, what gives?

[ninthebin]

does it look different when you turn it on?? I would find that odd cos the system you see in the sig below I get the same

I dont personally like FSAA as I like playing in higher resolutions compared to lower resolutions with everything blurred...

AF I do like as this does make a genuine contribution to the look of the game IMO.

[Default]

try 1200*1600 with 2*2 AA (*DROOL*) No ladder affect at all and still very playable.

[dreamtfk]

Originally posted by Default
try 1200*1600 with 2*2 AA (*DROOL*) No ladder affect at all and still very playable.

I'm already running at 1200*1600.

Originally posted by ninthebin
AF I do like as this does make a genuine contribution to the look of the game IMO.

AF gives me the exact same problem as when I turn on AA, the FPS just drops.

[Default]

in that case try turning up your graphics apature in your bios. might help.

[dreamtfk]

You know every time I try to adjust arepeture it always goes back to the default of being off. I never could figure it out.

[PreservedSwine]

Your AGP apeture goes back to the default? Not the AGP2x 4x, 8x setting, but the 64, 128, 256 setting....
And what do you mean by your AGP aperture being "off":confused:


Anyway, AA and AF are going to take a pretty big toll on your system, especially @ such high resolutions...You might need to bring down that resolution if you're going to be running w. FSAA and AF

[dreamtfk]

Originally posted by PreservedSwine
Your AGP apeture goes back to the default? Not the AGP2x 4x, 8x setting, but the 64, 128, 256 setting....
And what do you mean by your AGP aperture being "off":confused:

By default it is set to 32mb and goes all the way up to 128mb. No matter what set it to after exiting BIOS and restarting it goes back to 32mb never fails.

[crion]

it looks better with AA on but u need a really good pc to get it running smoooothly

[DocClock aka MadClocker]

The resolution is aproaching the max for that card...if you drop off the res a little the fps's should come up...even the Ti 4600 has trouble with FSAA at those res's (from what I've read.. can't say if it is true though)

[PreservedSwine]

Originally posted by dreamtfk


By default it is set to 32mb and goes all the way up to 128mb. No matter what set it to after exiting BIOS and restarting it goes back to 32mb never fails.

I hope this isn't insulting, but you are hitting F10, saving bios settings, then exiting, right?? Like I said, I'm sorry to ask...:)

[james.miller]

what is your fixation with the aperture size? that doesnt help. try to stay on topic.

anyway, yeah running 2xFSAA @ 1600x1200 will take a toll on your system (usually at least halfing your fps - "2x" get it? 90/2 = 45 or half what you were getting before)
try 4xFSAA and a bet you'll get low 20's at the most (90/4 = 22.5)
now this is only a generalization, but its mostly true with the gf4 ti's.

[dreamtfk]

Originally posted by PreservedSwine


I hope this isn't insulting, but you are hitting F10, saving bios settings, then exiting, right?? Like I said, I'm sorry to ask...:)

Of course I've tried everything. As far as the FSAA goes from people I've asked it seems to take a toll on alot of peoples system's.

[james.miller]

of course it does. nothing is free you know.
if you read up on FSAA then you will know why it takes a toll on any system

[ninthebin]

I dont think thats what the fella is getting at - we all know running more intensive tasks like that strains the system more...I think he is getting at he thinks it is overly low for his system - which I am inclined to agree with as the system in my sig performs very similar to the frame rates he is reporting

[dreamtfk]

Screw it, it's not that important anyways the game still looks great. I just wanted some input from other people.

[james.miller]

ninthebin a gf4 takes a big hit, nomatter what system its part of.

as i said before, the number is a good indcation of the performance hit you can expect:

x2 FSAA - 1/2 the performance
Quincunx is different, it usually has the same performance impact of 2x, but look almost as good as 4x
x4 FSAA - 1/4 the performance
x6 FSAA - 1/6 the performance
x8 FSAA - 1/8 the performance

remember this is a generalisation, but with nvidias current gf4 range this is mostly correct.

now remember he said with 2x FSAA his framerate dropped from 90 to mid 40's. Well that is exactly 1/2 just like i said.

[Ugmore Baggage]

40fps isn't fast enough for you? You must have some good eyes there.

[dreamtfk]

Originally posted by Ugmore Baggage
40fps isn't fast enough for you? You must have some good eyes there.

Well If the screen jerks and tears when I move around then I guess it's not. :rolleyes:

[james.miller]

well if it does that then youve got other problems:rolleyes:

[DManeKid]

na, he probably generally has 40fps, but sometimes and explosion or the lava effect can just make your fps drop to the floor, which would then make everything jerk and such

edit- wow i play ut2k3 too much :P for some reason i thought we were talking about it....anyway, the basic idea still applies

[ninthebin]

lol, you say that as if I aint noticed the hundered of benchmarks which show how bad GF4s handle FSAA and AF - but I believe in the mans original post he said that he thinks his system should be able to handle it - so in my eyes it wasnt a question of how FSAA effected it, it was more should his system be performing better than what he is stating it is...

[james.miller]

well if you really do know all about it, then i dont need to prove it to you. I also dont need to tell you that its a limitation of the gpu, therfor it doesnt matter what system its a part of.

I said in my first post that that was pretty much spot on.
So, why are you telling me what you think his question was? i know what he asked, and i answered it. why are you bringing this up? What is your point?

[dreamtfk]

Originally posted by james.miller
well if it does that then youve got other problems:rolleyes:

I'm talking about just creating my own server with no one else just moving around is difficult and sluggish. With AA off it's no prob back up to 90 fps. I already have it at 1600x1200 so that would explain why such a performance hit, no biggie.

[james.miller]

yeah it really depends on what resolution you start with.
with nvidia's current implimentation of aa, what basically happens is that the resolution is increased. for ecample, with 2xFSAA 1600x1200 becomes 3200x2400. the the gpu does all its processing that is needed, then the image is scaled back down to 1600x3200. Its a very bandwidth intensive process.
Thats why the gf4's take such a massive hit with aa @1600x1200 compared to the ati r9500's or 9700's - they just dont have the bandwidth to keep up - plus AtI's implimentation is more efficiant than Nvidia's.
When you concider that 1600x1200 @4xFSAA equates to 6400x4800 actual - you can see how much fsaa really hinders the cards lol

[DManeKid]

wow, i never knew it had to do that.....hmm thats really cool!......of course with a gf2 as the highest card i have ever owned....i REALLY DIDNT need to know that :p

[james.miller]

its an over-simpleisation, but thats basically how its done. Ati's implimentation involved smoothing the lines only and not the whole image, consiquently it looks as good (if not better ) and is a lot faster, just look at any benchmarks.

[DManeKid]

Originally posted by james.miller
its an over-simpleisation, but thats basically how its done. Ati's implimentation involved smoothing the lines only and not the whole image, consiquently it looks as good (if not better ) and is a lot faster, just look at any benchmarks. so...it looks better AND its faster?!? why dont more people do this?

[james.miller]

i have no idea lol as i said my explanation is over simpleised, but mostly correct. im not totally sure in the exact details, but Atis method is definatly faster

[Overclocker550]

Originally posted by Ugmore Baggage
40fps isn't fast enough for you? You must have some good eyes there.


no kidding, maybe he was a cat in his past life. I have fast reflexes yet 30fps is smooth as glass! maybe he needs to stop overclocking himself ;) :D

actually 1600x1200 at 4x fsaa is 3200x2400 effective. maybe his video card doesnt have enough memory and needs to access the agp bus? if he gets a 128mb verson, problem solved!

[james.miller]

so whats 1600x1200 at 2x then?

[OC-Master]

Originally posted by DManeKid
na, he probably generally has 40fps, but sometimes and explosion or the lava effect can just make your fps drop to the floor, which would then make everything jerk and such

edit- wow i play ut2k3 too much :P for some reason i thought we were talking about it....anyway, the basic idea still applies

Nah, you can never play unreal tournament 2003 too much! ;) I personally can see FPS all the way up to 60fps. Anything higher than 60fps, I cant notice anything.

I'd say 1280x960x32 with 2X FSAA and 64-tap anistrophic filtering is plenty!


OC-Master

[Overclocker550]

2x fsaa at 1600x1200 is like 3200x1200, it only super samples one side. 4x fsaa does makes a square double in both L*W

[james.miller]

ah yes of course, now i remember

[pip]

Originally posted by james.miller
of course it does. nothing is free you know.
if you read up on FSAA then you will know why it takes a toll on any system

well you mean nothing is free for gf4s I can run 16xaf(in fact i don't turn it off) and 2xaa without a performance hit at any resolution, well it does hit performance but only like 5 fps

[james.miller]

obviously - if you would have read my others posts then you would have known this.

[larva]

Originally posted by Ugmore Baggage

40fps isn't fast enough for you? You must have some good eyes there.


Originally posted by Overclocker550

no kidding, maybe he was a cat in his past life. I have fast reflexes yet 30fps is smooth as glass! maybe he needs to stop overclocking himself ;)


Heh, this is what people with slow systems like to believe, and repeat over and over to themselves to reinforce their decision not to buy some current hardware.

Come play Q3A online with less than 125fps and you will find yourself at a most pronounced disadvantage against those that do. The game engine's physics are most effective at 125fps allowing you to jump higher and run faster, and the feel is vastly better. Playing single player with any game is a cinch, try it with some internet induced lag and the vastly superior reflexes and unpredictablity of good human players in a truly fast paced game like Q3 and the feel and immediate response afforded by 75+ fps performance makes a big difference, even if the game engine's physics aren't affected as they are in Q3.

And before I get a litany of responses saying how you own online with your TNT2, note that I was ranked #9 worldwide in Q3A DM last week. There is a difference between thinking you are owning, and actually doing it. If you are serious about winning and using a GF4 you are running 1024x768 (at most), and no AA or AF of any kind. And this is assuming you are carrying a big stick, system wise (high fsb/memory P4 at 2.4+ GHz or unlocked high fsb/memory AthlonXP at 1.8GHz actual or more). If you are making a painting, turn on every option you want. If you are being competitive, turn all that crap off.

Note that 9700 ATI's droop considerably less with these options enabled than a Ti4600 does. If you feel you can't live without silly resolutions and AA and/or AF, spend the money on a 9700. The Ti4600 is just as capable with no AA, but markedly less effective with it. Everyone's priorities are different, and player skill is a huge factor. But sooner or later you will play against someone with equal skill to yours (or vastly greater...) and if they have a machine like mine set up realistically and you don't you have no chance. Ping is also a giant factor, but no matter what your connection quality is like teaming it with a truly high effective system performance level will always maximize your results.

[OC-Master]

My goal with my rig is to get my computer playing Unreal Tournament2k3, Doom3, C&C Generals, SimCity4 and Unreal2 playing all in 1280x960x32 with 100Hz and FPS at 60fps or higher with 4 X FSAA on and tons of Anistrophy on (64 X tap at least)

Think its possible with GeForce FX?


OC-Master

[Cowboy X]

My A7N8x with 768 mb of corsair ram , a 9700 pro and unlocked 2600+ may be able to do that ;)

( gotta get my sig updated but I use hotmail :( )

[larva]

Originally posted by OC-Master
My goal with my rig is to get my computer playing Unreal Tournament2k3, Doom3, C&C Generals, SimCity4 and Unreal2 playing all in 1280x960x32 with 100Hz and FPS at 60fps or higher with 4 X FSAA on and tons of Anistrophy on (64 X tap at least)

Think its possible with GeForce FX?


OC-Master

In a word, no.

It is hard to say what the GeForce FX is capable of though, as I have yet to see the first real world test of it. As well Doom3 has not been released, so speculation as to the exact results is basically useless.

The one thing you can say is that you will get the best results at any point in time by buying the most effective hardware and maximizing its potential through the astute application of the full array of overclocking and software optimization tricks. Exactly what level of performance this yields depends on a dizzying list of complicated and unpredictable factors. All we can do is our best in the face of ever more hungry software, but we can do that. And unless you are simply made of money, revising expectations to a realistic level will always be required to maintain a truly high effective performance level.

[Overclocker550]

I dont see how you can jump higher, run faster with 125fps? the only difference it would be smoother. say you get 90fps and you can move a 180 degree angle so you can frag someone behind you, thats 2 degrees per second. your eyes would not see the transitions and it would look all fluid. anything faster than 1/15th of a second is smooth. yea lag is the main factor really. someone with a cable modem and no lag but gets 15fps can win anytime over 200fps and lag since with lag by the time you shoot he would have been in a different place and by the time you dodge his rocket missle, youd be fragged.

[larva]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
I dont see how you can jump higher, run faster with 125fps? the only difference it would be smoother...

The important point of the above is that you don't see. Do some research on the web, the characteristics of the Q3 engine are well-documented.

[funnyperson1]

Originally posted by OC-Master
My goal with my rig is to get my computer playing Unreal Tournament2k3, Doom3, C&C Generals, SimCity4 and Unreal2 playing all in 1280x960x32 with 100Hz and FPS at 60fps or higher with 4 X FSAA on and tons of Anistrophy on (64 X tap at least)

Think its possible with GeForce FX?


OC-Master

all of them except Doom3, in demos the FX has only been able to get 49fps at 1280x1024 with no AA and Aniso.....even it it increases a huge amount in performance, that res with 4xAA and 16x aniso would KILL any gfx card

[Overclocker550]

I dont think doom3 would even sell well since no one would want to play in 640x480, the lucky few who have mean rigs would buy that game, but itll be a slow seller for like a year

[AMDnitromike]

scotty where are you? heh

[ssj4goku887]

i have a ti4600 and i play bf1942 with 2x anti aliasing and its perfectly fine no lag what so ever.my resolutions at 1024x768 with all the settings maxed out.doesnt lag even when there are a crapload of people on the screen shooting at once.

[ssj4goku887]

i HAVE to have some form of anti aliasing in games because i just cant play without it. i hate thos jaggies.

[breez]

Originally posted by OC-Master
My goal with my rig is to get my computer playing Unreal Tournament2k3, Doom3, C&C Generals, SimCity4 and Unreal2 playing all in 1280x960x32 with 100Hz and FPS at 60fps or higher with 4 X FSAA on and tons of Anistrophy on (64 X tap at least)

Think its possible with GeForce FX?


OC-Master

Won't happen with Geforce FX in Doom3.

[OC-Master]

Originally posted by breez


Won't happen with Geforce FX in Doom3.


GeForce FX2 maybe?


OC-Master

[Overclocker550]

high res is better than FSAA it both removes jaggies and gives more details to pictures, you can see the heads better, in low res FSAA you wont get jaggies but itll be a blur

[james.miller]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
high res is better than FSAA it both removes jaggies and gives more details to pictures, you can see the heads better, in low res FSAA you wont get jaggies but itll be a blur
unfortunatly it doesnt always work like that. the problem with high res is that grapahics like hud's, osd's ect dont always scale properly. In other words - the on-screen-display in say, quake 3, is hideously small at 2048x1536 on anything excapt a 24inch monitor, but at 1024x768 with 4xfsaa (2048x1536 effective res.) all the graphics are still legible even on a 15inch monitor, and you still have just as much detail and smoothness.

[Overclocker550]

The only thing small is the text but who cares what other players and bots say?

[james.miller]

the hud is too small aswell, overclocker. what about other things such as flight sims. how the hell are you supposed to fly the plane of the hud is too small to read? lol

[Evnas]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
I dont think doom3 would even sell well since no one would want to play in 640x480, the lucky few who have mean rigs would buy that game, but itll be a slow seller for like a year

ID knows Doom 3 will sell like hot cakes no matter what the system specs are...ID makes damn good games, and everybody knows it. Hell, Wolfenstein 3D (those were the days) invented the First Person Shooter, and Quake 1 is still a damn good looking game (btw...anybody know what the status is on the revamp of Quake 1? I remember hearing about it in the works by someone who redesigned the textures and everything). But even then, ID could care less if Doom 3 doesnt sell a single copy. They make the bulk of their money off selling the game engine to other companies to use in their games...and since the Doom 3 engine is predicted to last 5 years, ID is set till their next big project his the market.