wb preformance importance with chiller

[epion2985]

-I am planing to have a water chiller so i was wondering how important is it to have a good preforming water block since I will be using a chiller?

-also, I know the hydor L30 is a great pump but makes alot of heat, now I am wondering since i will be using a chiller wouldnt the low temperatures of the water keep it cool?

[epion2985]

anyone?

[Cathar]

The more efficient the waterblock, the lower the temperatures of your CPU compared to another block, whether or not chilled water is flowing through the block.

[epion2985]

I know that, what I want to know is how important is it really with chilled water. I mean if we are talking from 2 degrees to 7 difference its not really important, but if it will be something like from 2 to 15 thats more noticable. Ofcoarse when i use common cense I see that the difference wont be big, and further more 2 or 15 degrees doesnt really matter, I mean at 15 it will oc just as well as at 2 right. Like those who run their chips at -30 or -40 with pahse change or pelts, what are they really acomplishing? besides the braging rights ^^ would the chip oc better at -30 then at 2?

[Cathar]

It depends on your goals. If you're going to go to the bother of chilling your water, then clearly you want the lowest CPU temps you can get.

The colder you can get your CPU, the higher you can overclock it.

For example, running with 20C water allows my T'Bred B CPU to happily run at 2660MHz. Running it with 5C water will allow it to do 2780MHz. That's a 120MHz difference over a 15C range. Each 5C difference is roughly translating to 40MHz.

Now 40MHz isn't really a big deal at these sorts of speeds, but again it depends on what your goals are.

With phase-change the CPU might be able to run at say >2900MHz stable, and that's why people do that.

The clear pattern here is that lower temps equate to higher stable overclocks.

If the extra 5C is there for the taking, and if it means anything to you, then why not take it, otherwise why bother chilling the water?

At what point do you decide that it's not worth it to you, and that's really a question that only the individual can answer.

[epion2985]

are you saying it will oc more if you go from say -15 to -25? prosesors dont make THAT kind of heat I mean I though once you hit THAT low it really doesnt matter -15, -25, -45 all same no? I know it makes a difference when we are talking 30 or 20 or 5 but once you cross in to the negatives does it really make a difference? If yes can you back that up with something. Because I talked to alot of people who do this and they say once you go that low its all the same weather its -20 or -40.

[Cathar]

It's true that as you approach or get below -20C that the returns of overclocking diminish with each further drop in temperature.

Your statement talked about a water chiller, water freezing at 0C, so we're not talking about sub zero temperatures here.

Also remember that people who say -20C or -40C are talking about the phase-change evaporator head temperature, and not necessarily the actual CPU temperature, which at these levels it becomes somewhat hard to guage just exactly what the CPU temperature really is, and quite often the CPU may actually be sitting at around 0C to 10C.

The issue here becomes one of accurately plotting just what the CPU's temperature really is, before we can make any assessment as to whether "-20C" or "-40C" has little to no effect. The actual CPU temperature difference may be just 5C for all we know.

[epion2985]

um who said I was to use watter! water chilelr is a term, I was going to use methanol alcohol.

as far as acurate temp, well there is a good way. You cut open a ravine in the top part of the socket and lay they probe wires through there to the inside of it, then stick the probe to the bottom of the cpu. I have seen it done, rather accurate.

also I was going to ask, what is the return at 20degrees vs 0?

also you get condensation when the tem goes below ambient temp. So if it is 28degrees in my room, and my cooling will run (takeing in to the account the warming up the cpu temp does) at 25 degrees, would I get condensation, is the point after wihich you get condensation is sharp on the dot when the water temp will go below ambient temp or is there like a 10degree agea where it wont really form because there would be so little because its so close, it will dry up fast.

[I.M.O.G.]

Originally posted by epion2985
um who said I was to use watter! water chilelr is a term, I was going to use methanol alcohol.

as far as acurate temp, well there is a good way. You cut open a ravine in the top part of the socket and lay they probe wires through there to the inside of it, then stick the probe to the bottom of the cpu. I have seen it done, rather accurate.

also I was going to ask, what is the return at 20degrees vs 0?

also you get condensation when the tem goes below ambient temp. So if it is 28degrees in my room, and my cooling will run (takeing in to the account the warming up the cpu temp does) at 25 degrees, would I get condensation, is the point after wihich you get condensation is sharp on the dot when the water temp will go below ambient temp or is there like a 10degree agea where it wont really form because there would be so little because its so close, it will dry up fast.

Here is some information on methanol inhalation (Yes, I know you are running a closed loop... How confident are you that it is completely vapor tight? This is something to think about and look for when you start using methanol, if you notice any symptoms you will want to remove the methanol promptly.):
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/M2015.htm

Condensation is dependent upon surface temperature, relative humidity, air pressure, and air temperature. Air pressure is negligibile unless you are in an area where it varies considerable from the standard 1 ATM. The following graph shows when condensation will occur - the numbers in black are surface temperatures at which condensation will occur.

Here is a graph explaining when condensation will occur, this picture was created and is hosted by the forum member Bladerunner:
http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/pictures/gif/condensationchart.gif

The return at 20C vs. 0C varies... We all love rules of thumb, but frankly any rule of thumb for this is BS. Every CPU overclocks differently, some will overclock a little more for every few degrees you get colder, others will overclock in leaps as you bump your temps down a good chunk. If you want a relative answer to this question, then the improved return going from 20C to 0C is not as good as when going from 40C to 20C, but it is better than the improved return when going from 0C to -20C.

If you have more questions about the effects of going further and further below 0C then you should visit the www.phase-change.com forums... they have legitimate experience in this area. Colder is better for performance, this is basically an established fact for electrical parts similar to processors. The colder you get, the less better it is - look up the term "diminishing marginal returns" on google to understand the behavior.

[epion2985]

yeah i know methanol is nasty like that but it is jesus for heat transfer. I probably wont use it, it was just an idea. Can you recomend a fluid with good heat transfer?
(I wanter to use alcohol also because it kills all the crap so you dont have to change it)

I know what diminishing marginal returns is, I just wanted advice on weather it is really worth it going tot he point where condensation becomes a problem?

PS: thanx for the chart!

[penquissciguy]

I have also read around these forums that at extremely low temperatures, the different rates of shrinkage of the cpu's die and package can cause weakening of the internal connections of the processor and shorten its lifespan. Has anyone experienced this or know someone who has?

Ken

[Siphilon]

blah blah blah blah blah...

Why is everyone taking this dude (epion2985) so seriously???

[epion2985]

because he ****ing knows what he is talking about. If i were you i'd pipe down.

[Siphilon]

Hey...can I ges some of the Crys.Meth. that you must be smoking?

[epion2985]

I am sure you have plenty of that, you sure sound like it.

[AlienHack]

Originally posted by penquissciguy
I have also read around these forums that at extremely low temperatures, the different rates of shrinkage of the cpu's die and package can cause weakening of the internal connections of the processor and shorten its lifespan. Has anyone experienced this or know someone who has?

Ken


PenQui , We probably read the same article about the phenomena you mentioned. Actually The whole article was so damn interesting that I printed it for future reference but unfortunately I dont have it here but at home. Anyway the guy that wrote it is a technician for intel or smthing and he was talking with an other guy (technician-student in computer science also). What they said is that " Ok temps matter cause we all know that Electronics work best at low temps (although below exterme low temps the benefits start to extinct, just remember that most electronics have specifications that tell us to use them at worst in -5 to -10 degrees, bellow that --- they cant guarantee they will work good--- and when they say -5C to -10 C ambient temps the electronics will probably be higher cause of the electricity and heat they produce, lets say close to 0C) but temps arent the only limit or the bottleneck, volts are" They were talking about the P4 suden death syndrome, remember it? Its the one where You oc your system , it works fine lets say at 3,4 with 1.8 volts and sudenly after 4-5 months POOF! Gone, Cpu partially damaged or entirely fried. They concluded and backed up scientifically that when you pass 1.7-1.75 volts a phenomenon start to occur, they called it sometjing like "molecular eloctrocorrosion" or smthing. What its suposed to hapen is that the transistors inside a P4 CPU built with 0.13 micron are so small that their actual size is several mollecules of silicone, when extreme power (volts) passes through these transistor gates (gates cause they are the ones responsible for the 0-1 effect the Computers are based on - 1 power passes , 0 power doesnt pass) magnetic fields start to form up and they can be so strong as to pull electrons from these mollecules of the silicon gates, thus destroing the gates ( actually molecularly disasembling the gates , somthing like corosion) and the cpu in the process.

So anyone got a hold of it?
PenQui thats what you meant right?

[Stedeman]

Thank you "AlienHack" that was yummy but I would like more on that please so anyone who knows where the post is please link it

[Siphilon]

Originally posted by epion2985
I am sure you have plenty of that, you sure sound like it.

Nice comeback.

Sorry m8, I thought your post was a joke when I read that you wanted to use methanol in your watercooling rig & every question you pose get's answered but yet you reply with some sort of snide remark.

[tyshy]

man alot of flaming going on in here....hope a mod doesn't see it...lol

on the bright side im doing a project on a phase change system and it will compare aircooling overclock to watercooling overclock to phase change overclock and the differences between them. Also will get into the efficiency of the cpu at such low temps and the best avenue for industry to take in this era of evolving cpu speeds and increased need for more advanced cooling. These systems will be run on 3 identical comps using all the same benchmarks and by next year i will have all the data for all 3 rigs and ill post it somewhere. This is more of a long term project for one of my engineering classes (high school-lol). I am also interested to know whether the phase change is really worth more than bragging rights.

[[OC]This]

The original poster here is very defensive. When the guy is so defensive, it's not worth helping him. How are you going to help when the person is not willing to listen. ;)

The member Cathar gave the best explanation and advice.. Everything he has said is correct. Well done, Cathar. :cool:

[[OC]This]

another thing,

if you're wanting to stick with the closed loop system, forget about using the chiller. You don't have the room for it. Open loop is the only way.


What's more? ... condensation.

When you getting into chilled level, you are going to get consensation , everywhere. It would take more work preparing for insulation and prevent from getting condensation. This will be the biggest task, more than anything else you do with your computer system. ;)

[epion2985]

to Siphilon:

um, when you said why is every one taking him so seriously I thought you were refering to Cathar. You edited your post later and inserted (epion2985). I though you were trashing Cathar, thats why the deffence. As far as I go, well I was just considering things, hoping to learn from people with experience, and I am greatfull for all the replys. thank you all.

to [OC]This:

so yeah, the defences werent for me, I am more then happy to learn something new, thats why I am here.

if you're wanting to stick with the closed loop system, forget about using the chiller. You don't have the room for it. Open loop is the only way.

what do you mean no room, its not going the the case you know, it will be in a seperate enclosure.


What's more? ... condensation

I may be asking some newbee questions but I asure you I know a fair amount. I know condensation will be a problem, thats why I asked for some info on it.

I have helped make a phase change system before so I know a thing or two about insulating everything, but thanks for advice anyway.

[[OC]This]

Originally posted by epion2985
to [OC]This:

so yeah, the defences werent for me, I am more then happy to learn something new, thats why I am here.
ok, good..



what do you mean no room, its not going the the case you know, it will be in a seperate enclosure.
no room means.... no room. ;)

look at message I quoted there. It explains it already.. Do you see the "if" "then" case? ;) very important to read carefully.


I may be asking some newbee questions but I asure you I know a fair amount. I know condensation will be a problem, thats why I asked for some info on it.
ok

I have helped make a phase change system before so I know a thing or two about insulating everything, but thanks for advice anyway.
hey that's a plus. Good for you then. :cool:

[epion2985]

I guess I should have asked what is a closed loop is your understanding?

the way I was going to do it is, I was going to use a X soda fountain phase change set up to cool the water. It is made for cooling soda, I will just have it cool my coolant, whatever it will be. I suppose its open loop, then again I havent take a look at the thing yet. Soda is carbonated so I am guessing it is airtight, I consider that closed loop. But I guess its a term here and has a specific meaning.

Sp what is a closed loop exactly?

[[OC]This]

Closed loop is a watercooling system running within the computer case. Many normal watercooling guys use this method. It's a standard level of watercooling.

The Open loop is running the water system from your computer to the cooling source i.e. dedicated waterchiller, deep freezer, or something equivalent. :cool:

[epion2985]

actually mine will be a closed loop. I am making a custom case that will be rather large.

[[OC]This]

Well if you can manage it, sure that would be cool. Good luck.

What kind of water temperature do you think you'll be running?

[Stedeman]

Originally posted by [OC]This
Closed loop is a watercooling system running within the computer case. Many normal watercooling guys use this method. It's a standard level of watercooling.

The Open loop is running the water system from your computer to the cooling source i.e. dedicated waterchiller, deep freezer, or something equivalent. :cool:

Sorry [OC]This, a closed loop only means there is no venting like bong set-ups I run a closed loop chiller at work on a dual resistance welder (I only chill to about 10C but on other lines with bigger set ups they run sub zero I don't know the precise mix they use for cooling fluid as I am not part of those lines but we run straight tap and it gets real nasty fast about 30 or so days and you need to clean it out I and yes I have suggested additives but engineering wont clear them)

[[OC]This]

Originally posted by Stedeman


Sorry [OC]This, a closed loop only means there is no venting like bong set-ups I run a closed loop chiller at work on a dual resistance welder (I only chill to about 10C but on other lines with bigger set ups they run sub zero I don't know the precise mix they use for cooling fluid as I am not part of those lines but we run straight tap and it gets real nasty fast about 30 or so days and you need to clean it out I and yes I have suggested additives but engineering wont clear them)
Apology accepted.


Well hmm, the way you take the meaning of "closed/open" loop is different than way I take it. What I have said is what I go by.. That's my way. You can stick with your way. Not a problem.. :cool:

[epion2985]

lol, I guess everyone has their own interpretation

[Stedeman]

One of the biggest problems when asking a question is weather or not the person receiving the question can properly understand what was asked. With that in mind here are the actual definitions and as you can see in water cooling a computer a bong is the (also any reservoir or “T” that’s not sealed) only open loop system “because” the water evaporates thus its not self correcting. I think the term that best describe what your talking about are “external water cooling system” or “remotely located water cooler” and “fully enclosed water cooling system”.

closed loop
NOUN: Engineering A control system with an active feedback loop.
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entries/65/c0416550.html

open loop
NOUN: Engineering A control system that does not have a feedback loop and thus is not self-correcting.
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entries/08/o0090800.html

I am not trying to be a dink but if everyone uses a wrong term when helping how would we know if any information we received is good / correct.