Actual Proof that heat is bad for computers

[jesusphreak]

Hey guys, i work for a school district and it has come up that we have been chalenged that they don't think we need to air condition a room about 10' by 10' that has all of our Servers and rack stuff, need to say it gets warm if the ac isn't in there (we had it fail and everything shut off but the maintenance department doesn't think everything shutting down had to do with ac unit)
so i need some links to some technical stuff online that just proves that heat is bad for computers.
And no taking a heat sink off a cpu and watching it pop in front of him will not do :D
thanks

[2XS]

Where did the schools district find that joker?

<edit> Actually you could place a conferance call to your server manufacture and ask them what you are asking us. Just let us know when they stop laughing. :)

[DrSpanky]

the heat lowers life due to electromigration just mention that word :p

[7h3r4py]

get them to install the ac duct in the floor so the cool air can flow up through the cases, that would be cool, shame ac isnt so common in england otherwise i would do that

[WejRepus]

Originally posted by 2XS
Actually you could place a conferance call to your server manufacture and ask them what you are asking us. Just let us know when they stop laughing. :)


that is actually a good idea... seems like it would be most convincing to get the manufacturer to tell your school that they are crazy if they think cooling isnt neccessary

[jesusphreak]

Originally posted by 2XS
Where did the schools district find that joker?

<edit> Actually you could place a conferance call to your server manufacture and ask them what you are asking us. Just let us know when they stop laughing. :)

that's a really good idea, they are all Dells so i that's cool. I thought about telling him were gunna take the heat sink of one of the xeons and see if it needs it, if it doesn't but out heat then in won't pop, if it pops he buys us a new one :D

[diggingforgold]

You're school district is full of a bunch of ********.

I like the conference call idea. Or, get together all of the school board members, gather them into that small room, rip off the heatsink on one of them Zeons, and force all of the board members to place their hands on that chip for more than 10 seconds.

I think after their hands are consumed in flames, that they would agree AC is acceptable for a 10x10 server closet.



OR

You can leave it up to the A/C contractor to show the proof. They are the ones that have to get hired, leave it up to them to give a convincing presentation. But I think AC requirements and IT should be basic knowledge. And if you have a bunch of ******** who think they know best, let them kick themselves in the ass when they need to purchase all new equipment when it goes bad.

[Turd Furguson]

I would try this approach:

Calculate the wattage that the server closet is using. Use those figures and calculate the Joules of energy that is used. Use those figures to a 1 hour figure. Then calculate it at a 12hr interval. Then at a 23rd hour.

Tell them without moving fresh air into the server closet that the temperature will never decrease. It will only increase to the maximum temperature of <insert calculation here>. Show them this number, compare it to the max operating temperature of the equipment. Math and Physics doesn't lie, unless of course you fudge your answers a little bit from rounding.

[penquissciguy]

I suggest you make a list of the replacement costs for all the equipment in that server room that WILL fail prematurely without adequate cooling. I'm willing to bet that the cost to completely repurchase the equipment in that closet is less than the cost of installing the AC. At our school, we lost processors in three servers over the course of two months due to overheating.

Ken

[schismspeak]

Call Dell. If they have someone smart on the line, that person should start to bust out laughing when you tell them that(unless they are just really serious people) your post made me lol.
Somebody is a moron.

[Sterculus]

Have the people who have to make the decision sit in that room after the servers have been running for at least 24 hours, on a nice hot summer day. Have them talk about it for an hour in that little room, and see how they like the heat :D:D:D
Actually, the tech support is the best idea. Explain the situation to the tech support guy too (small room, etc)

[Toysrme]

I have money on the manufacturers standing by their computers so long as they're not heat locking every 20 min.

[L_P]

Well I have been in computers for over thirteen years, I have a degree in computer Electronics and Also Many cert's.
if someone asked me that, I would just ignore them and continue on.
A computer will generate the same amount of heat a persons body will. now you take a rack and stick ten or more servers into it. without a way to move cool air into it then those systems will end up getting really warm, not to mention the common heat problems that plauge computers, Shorten life, Instability, and possiability for failure. now tell them you want to see ten or more people sqeeze into a rack enclosure and not sweat to death.
people can be irrogent. anyway if you live in the states there are laws for Computer datacenters, They have to have adaquite cooling and fire prevention systems. so you may also want too look into that, Where I live datacenter must keep a steady 70F or less temp, and also use a dry Fire system, as for security they didnt govern.
anyway, there you go.
-L_P

[zexmarquies01]

Personally, if it was me in this situation.......

I Would let them to as they please, then when the parts fry, I'd laugh at them, and tell them i told them so, and now they have to go out and buy the stuff all over again, when the AC would have been SOOO much cheaper!

and i'd NEVER EVER let them live it down.

THEN That will teach them to listen to you.

[eobard]

Well this isn't actual proof but I do have a few ideas.

1) Put in paperwork for $xxxxx for the next fiscal term, when they ask why you need so much money tell them you need "X" amount to replace the computers in 6 months because they weren't properly cooled, then "X" amount more for the same thing 6 months after that (same reason) and just go on and on.

2) Send some kind of notification to every parent whose children attend school in that district explaining that they should expect serious cuts to things like extra caricular activities because the money usually allocated to those programs will probably be used to replace the computers every six months. Then just sit back and wait. Either you'll get the AC that the servers need, or you'll get fired for proving the board's incompotence.... actually that may not be a good idea.

[moz_21]

You could show them the TomsHardware video of them taking the heatsink off of AMD cpus. I've got it if you need it :D

And I'd have to agree with schismspeak: somebody IS a moron.

[nerdlogic]

Talk about ignorance! I would agree with the manufacturer call. It seems like the best approach.

[DrSpanky]

there was some noobie asking "why do i need cooling" lol so i said because you are a moron thats what you should say :) only problem a admins had a go at me

[Bobby]

I just read thru this thread and thought I'd throw my 2 cents in since I've built out many data centers.

Name calling and laughing at the decision makers aren't productive. While it might be fun, there's no reason to ridicule people that don't know about a specific subject. Try to educate them.

A/C units for data centers aren't cheap. They range from $5000 to $35,000. The easiest way to justify the cost of A/C units in a data center is to do as someone suggested about calculating the BTU output. A quick fix would be to place oscillating floor standing fans behind the racks and take a tile off the drop ceiling.

You should also have a Thermostat in there, preferrably with an alarm. One of those indoor/outdoor jobs works especially well if you have enclosed racks. Monitor the temps in the room.

There are guidelines for data centers but most of them vary from state to state and in some cases, building to building so I can't really give you specifics. There is a minimum size for a room to fall under the category for a data center. Most of these guidelines are from the building code for the city/state. Some codes include dry fire suppression systems, raised floors, a/c, etc. Check with the building for those codes.

moz_21 - Sorry for picking on you but would that make you a moron if you don't know how to put together a V8 engine? I think not. Not everyone can know everything about everything.

-Bobby

[eobard]

Originally posted by DrSpanky
there was some noobie asking "why do i need cooling" lol so i said because you are a moron thats what you should say :) only problem a admins had a go at me
I don't say this to be rude, but you're welcome to interpert it that way if you wish, but if you did that here then good, the admins should have a go at you, or anyone else, who does that. However they shouldn't have to have a go at anyone for that or anything else.

We've got a lovely set of rules right here (http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=66) just waiting to be read. Here's one of them.

Forum Code of Conduct:

We are especially concerned that EVERYONE who comes here finds a warm welcome and is well received.

To this end, we have established over time a few simple rules which allow for a broad diversity of opinions and points of view to express themselves, without creating disharmony and ill-will. They are as follows:

1. Absolutely NO personal attacks will be tolerated, no exceptions!

[Barnstormer]

Dell will back you up on that, just give 'em a call

[Bobby]

Originally posted by nerdlogic
Talk about ignorance! I would agree with the manufacturer call. It seems like the best approach.

They maybe ignorant but that's why we have jobs :D

We bring in the expertise and advise them of their options and offer solutions.

-Bobby

[chittnp]

didnt your servers come with somekind of documentation that suggests operating temperatures? if not Dell should be able to send you some written documentation

[moz_21]

Originally posted by Bobby
moz_21 - Sorry for picking on you but would that make you a moron if you don't know how to put together a V8 engine? I think not. Not everyone can know everything about everything.

-Bobby

Think about that like this: The car is your computer. The engine is your cpu.

To get the car to move you need an engine. Doesn't matter what kind but you need one. Now, the engine would just blow itself up without some kind of cooling, be it air like a VW Bug or water like most other cars.

To get a computer to go, you need propulsion. A cpu. Again, doesn't matter what kind but you still need it. Like an engine, it will just blow itself up without cooling.

Granted, these systems have heatsinks and such, but you pack anything hot into a small space, its gonna get really hot.

I thought of this after the above:

You could also think of it like your car in summer. Its sitting in the beating sun all day while you're at work. You go to your car and get in it. Its oven tempuature in there. You leave without opening your windows or turning the A/C on. You turn the heater on instead (the computers). It gets hotter and hotter, doesn't it? Now, you are able to drive down the road but you are very uncomfortable. That is like the computer: it is able to operate but it is uncomfortable to it.

And i'm not mad that you picked on me ;)

[Bobby]

Ok, my analogy is a bit flawed but the problem is that most people don't realize how much heat a computer puts out and they don't really need to. We're all freaks in here (yes, you too!) and want our systems to run cooler so we can o/c even more.

Whenever you tell someone they need to spend a lot of money on something they don't understand, their natural response would be to say no or not want to. Once you explain it to them and the benefits of it, they can make a more informed decision. I've had companies not go with the better a/c or redundant power for the a/c unit to get burned a few months later and spend 3 times what they weren't willing to spend in the begining. You really can't do much but fix the problem and hope they learned their lesson.

-Bobby

[Cjwinnit]

Simply tell them how hot the room will get without cooling and it will get so hot that it will be unsafe for people to work in there with the servers running.

[Yuriman]

Do xenons have thermal throttling? Show them a xenon with a heatsink and one without and compare preformance. I love many of the ideas listed here.

[Cjwinnit]

Originally posted by Yuriman
Do xenons have thermal throttling? Show them a xenon with a heatsink and one without and compare preformance. I love many of the ideas listed here.

Another good idea.

Yuriman, shorten your sig or i'll send Tanya to do it for you!

[Mr B]

Originally posted by Cjwinnit
Simply tell them how hot the room will get without cooling and it will get so hot that it will be unsafe for people to work in there with the servers running.

Better yet, make them spend their workday IN the closet, with the door closed...they'll see how hot it gets in there... ;)

[Gerfey]

Or leave the room closed for a day, set them to turn off when they reach unsafe temperatures, as quoted by intel in their tech docs (depends on exactly which processor you're talking about), and when all the servers turn off, just say that they reached unsafe temperatures, show them the tech docs.

[zexmarquies01]

Also, tell them, that witout adaquite Cooling, there is a potential Fire hazard. If they put a server in a closet, and it builds up heat. not only are the servers in danger, but the entire closet, and room it is in. remind them, that the cooling is MUCH cheaper, than having to replace an entire room that burned down.

Just remind them, that without cooling, the servers arn't the only thing that is in danger there.

i bet they will have a hard time Arguing with Safty. When they hear " fire Hazard " Ther perspective should change pretty quickly. At least we HOPE that the words " Fire hazard " should work on them......if not...i feel sorry for the kids in that school, who knows what stuff they could have said no to, and is just an accident waiting to happen......

[DarkNight]

Contact the local fire saftey inspector. I'm sure there are electrical setup issues as well. They will then need to get an analysis of the setup. I'm sure ac will be accounted for then. You will loose points with your boss though.

[nerdlogic]

Oh man, at the office where I work, the server room door has to stay open. I'm not sure if there are no AC dusts in there or if it's just not enough to keep the room cool, but when that door is closed, the room heats up pretty fast, so there's a sign that says "Please leave this door open"