radiator, whats better, dtek or blackice?

fafnir · Jul 20, 2003

if given only these two to choose from, (say d-tek's procore w/shroud, and say a black ice extreme from dangerden)

whats better? like i'd much prefer something with more waterflow rather than airflow, and also between the dangerden black ice extreme and their own heatercore w/shroud, whats better,....

and how much better is it? can anyone give me temps/ flow differences?

grateful for any responce at all...

thanks

Soja · Jul 20, 2003

If the radiator can handle the watts you can dish it then it's up to your waterblock for any temp differences. I'm assuming you're cooling a proc and maybe a gpu/nb. I think both should be able to handle the heatload so I'd choose Dtek's procore for the price...

CrashOveride · Jul 20, 2003

I as well would choose Dtek's, cuz of price and that most people use a similar one, the black ice ones are sorta small and I have never seen anyone using one who had good temps for a water coolings system.

fafnir · Jul 20, 2003

so besides price, whats wrong with the black ice?

like is it flow restrictive or something?

and also, how bad really is the black ice micro?

and response at all would be greatly appreciated....

thanks

n6b72g · Jul 20, 2003

The D-Tek heater-core will perform about 2C better than the Black Ice Extreme. If you have the room in your case for a heater-core, than go with a heater-core and 1 or 2 shrouds. If space is limited than get a Black Ice Extreme.

I.M.O.G. · Jul 20, 2003

The Dtek heatercore would likely be better than the Black Ice... if you look at this testing done you will see that a heatercore (Big Momma heatercore chart 12) very similar to Dtek's model wooped on most of the so-called competition and destroyed the Black Ice in chart 8.

Look here for graphs:

http://www.thermal-management-testing.com/corrected heat dissipation.htm

Look here for full article:

http://thermal-management-testing.com/radiator testing 1.htm

fafnir · Jul 21, 2003

ok, thanks,.... now i know..... thanks again

101 · Jul 21, 2003

Those charts from BillA's article included the original black ice. It has since been significantly redesigned in the pro and extreme incarnations. Perhaps Bill will have a radiator update including the new extreme/extreme 2, dtek heater cores, and the ThermoChill offerings? They would all appear to be near the top of the heap at first glance. Would be nice to see his thorough analysis and opinions on them in an updated article.

rmonster · Jul 21, 2003

Sadly, BillA has exited the public wc testing arena. He's now working with Swiftech, and although we are all happy for him, we will miss his precise and unbiased product reviews.

fafnir · Jul 21, 2003

awww, so that still means i still don't know if a black ice extreme is better than the heatercore.....

grr.....

Bender · Jul 21, 2003

fafnir said:
awww, so that still means i still don't know if a black ice extreme is better than the heatercore.....

grr.....

Trust me a heater core is better. The Dtek is simply a Chevette core with barbs. The Black ice extreme is basically a small custom heater core. They only reason to get a black ice is if you can’t fit a Chevette core. Why spend 2x and get slightly less performance.

For those of you with lots of room...
I recently picked up 2 172 MM Comair Rotron fans and an Econoline core for under $45 shipped all brand new. I have monsters living in my case

I.M.O.G. · Jul 22, 2003

101 said:
Those charts from BillA's article included the original black ice. It has since been significantly redesigned in the pro and extreme incarnations. Perhaps Bill will have a radiator update including the new extreme/extreme 2, dtek heater cores, and the ThermoChill offerings? They would all appear to be near the top of the heap at first glance. Would be nice to see his thorough analysis and opinions on them in an updated article.

Yeah, you had a point. I should have mentioned in my last post that I don't think the more recent versions of the BI have any "revolutionary" (

) heater core technology that would make it better than the large array of designs tested in Bill's article and thus make the article irrelevant (I venture to guess that in the last 30 years heatercores have not changed a whole lot, and I would guess again that they wouldn't have to be revolutionized to work proficiently for CPU watercooling). I think part of Bill's reason for testing so many designs was to show the performance trends that go along with the characteristics/features of radiators... and from that approach, the article isn't really dependent upon featuring an exact example of every radiator out there - the principles that the article sheds light on can be applied to all types of heat exchangers. That approach would have made a lot more sense for Bill given the demands on his time, and it is consistent with his approach to most of his other articles (except for the WB testing that he was sort of roped into). Bill always liked to lie the groundwork and exhibit the principles that were present in a way that the information could be applied to various, much broader situations - this way he didn't limit the utility of the information he created. Or atleast thats the way I always looked at it, and I would think that would be the way he would want it to be looked at.

Anyways... Yes a plain old heatercore is better, like Bender said. (BTW Bender, sloths don't have fingers due to the fact that they don't have arms... or perhaps you have fingers on your feet?)

EDIT: Leave it to Google of course, and you can prove anything wrong... Links to 3 fingered sloths:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=3+fingered+sloth

thorilan · Jul 22, 2003

Sadly, BillA has exited the public wc testing arena. He's now working with Swiftech, and although we are all happy for him, we will miss his precise and unbiased product reviews.

yeah but it means swiftec might start to produce more competitive stuff wich is a good thing and im betting he will be un biasd when he tells the other designers if thier product sucks and to come back with a better design

gbcue · Jul 22, 2003

Bender said:
For those of you with lots of room...
I recently picked up 2 172 MM Comair Rotron fans and an Econoline core for under $45 shipped all brand new. I have monsters living in my case

I bet they make lots of noise as well.

Bender · Jul 22, 2003

IMOG said:
(BTW Bender, sloths don't have fingers due to the fact that they don't have arms... or perhaps you have fingers on your feet?)

gbcue said:

I bet they make lots of noise as well.

Click to expand...

Hey don’t pick on me I had no say in my rank change
UnseenMenace decided to goof around with my rank so it stuck. It’s unique so I think I'll keep it.

Now back to the discussion...

modenaf1 · Jul 23, 2003

101 said:
Those charts from BillA's article included the original black ice. It has since been significantly redesigned in the pro and extreme incarnations. Perhaps Bill will have a radiator update including the new extreme/extreme 2, dtek heater cores, and the ThermoChill offerings? They would all appear to be near the top of the heap at first glance. Would be nice to see his thorough analysis and opinions on them in an updated article.

im really sorry guys. nothing to ad here. im a watercooling n00b. but im learning day by day.

101 · Aug 1, 2003

IMOG said:
Yeah, you had a point. I should have mentioned in my last post that I don't think the more recent versions of the BI have any "revolutionary" ( ) heater core technology that would make it better than the large array of designs tested in Bill's article and thus make the article irrelevant (I venture to guess that in the last 30 years heatercores have not changed a whole lot, and I would guess again that they wouldn't have to be revolutionized to work proficiently for CPU watercooling).

Actually, I wasn't implying that the newer BI radiators had some new tech in them, but everyone recalls what happened with the first design. As a refresher it was a 4 pass and it became very common to modify it into a 2 pass like the commonly used heater cores to reduce the horrible flow restriction the original had by increasing the number of parallel paths. I also believe they changed the thickness a bit as well. Anyway, I meant to imply that the newer model performs much more like a small heater core than the original since that's what they modified it after.

Cathar · Aug 1, 2003

Soja said:
If the radiator can handle the watts you can dish it then it's up to your waterblock for any temp differences. I'm

I have to address this point.

A radiator's ability to dissipate heat is directly proportional to the temperature difference of the coolant (water) and the air. It's also dependent upon the air-flow too.

This notion that a radiator can dissipate a fixed amount of heat is pure marketing rubbish.

A radiator, given a fixed air-flow rate and water-flow rate, will have a C/W value much like a water-block or a heatsink.

Radiator performance is also heavily dependent upon the size of the radiator. Generally the bigger the radiator, the better the performance, not always true for certain design types, but basically not a terrible assumption to make.

A small radiator like a BIX or a Micro which allow the water to get substantially warmer than larger radiators like the DTek Pro. The water temperature directly affects the final CPU temperature. Smaller radiators will make your CPU and other things hotter.

none1 · Sep 5, 2003

Cathar said:
I have to address this point.

A radiator's ability to dissipate heat is directly proportional to the temperature difference of the coolant (water) and the air. It's also dependent upon the air-flow too.

This notion that a radiator can dissipate a fixed amount of heat is pure marketing rubbish.

A radiator, given a fixed air-flow rate and water-flow rate, will have a C/W value much like a water-block or a heatsink.

Radiator performance is also heavily dependent upon the size of the radiator. Generally the bigger the radiator, the better the performance, not always true for certain design types, but basically not a terrible assumption to make.

A small radiator like a BIX or a Micro which allow the water to get substantially warmer than larger radiators like the DTek Pro. The water temperature directly affects the final CPU temperature. Smaller radiators will make your CPU and other things hotter.

Sorry to drag up this old post, but at least it is to sit at the feat of wisdom.

Cathar,

I understand the "radiator doesn't disipate a fixed amount of heat".

But also, a radiator doesn't get cooler than ambient.

So if your radiator can cool the water down to close to ambient, you won't get much better peformance by using a bigger rad, right?

So if a micro rad can eliminate most of the heat that you throw at it, then a bigger heatercore won't do you any good.

So THEN my questions become, how do I know if my rads big enough so that a bigger rad won't help much?

I'm ASSUMING that rad manufactuers, when they give their fixed heat disipation numbers, are running them at a given fixed water and air flow. SO, if I know the watts / heat my rad / water flow / air can disipate, and I know the heat generated by my proc, then I should be able to determine the optimal size radiator, right? And, if I were to increase my airflow (bigger faster fan) etc., than the manufactuer used, i might be able to get away with an even smaller core.

So, anyone have suggestions on how to (A) calc the heat disipation ability of a given air / water flow / radiator, based on manufactuer specs? and (B) how to calc the heat at full load of a processor (e.g. P4 OR AMD) running at xx volts?

Thanks!

camel · Sep 5, 2003

none1 said:
Sorry to drag up this old post, but at least it is to sit at the feat of wisdom.

Cathar,

I understand the "radiator doesn't disipate a fixed amount of heat".

But also, a radiator doesn't get cooler than ambient.

So if your radiator can cool the water down to close to ambient, you won't get much better peformance by using a bigger rad, right?

So if a micro rad can eliminate most of the heat that you throw at it, then a bigger heatercore won't do you any good.

So THEN my questions become, how do I know if my rads big enough so that a bigger rad won't help much?

I'm ASSUMING that rad manufactuers, when they give their fixed heat disipation numbers, are running them at a given fixed water and air flow. SO, if I know the watts / heat my rad / water flow / air can disipate, and I know the heat generated by my proc, then I should be able to determine the optimal size radiator, right? And, if I were to increase my airflow (bigger faster fan) etc., than the manufactuer used, i might be able to get away with an even smaller core.

So, anyone have suggestions on how to (A) calc the heat disipation ability of a given air / water flow / radiator, based on manufactuer specs? and (B) how to calc the heat at full load of a processor (e.g. P4 OR AMD) running at xx volts?

Thanks!

Cant help with the rad question, but this may help the proc question
http://www.benchtest.com/calc.html

radiator, whats better, dtek or blackice?

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