Dying ti4200, trying to decide on a replacement

[Chaos_Being]

I have a PNY ti4200 64mb that is going through its death throes...it still works for 2D stuff (like surfing the internet) but it locks up, goes into a video/audio loop or just flat-out crashes windows if I try to play a 3D game. Two of the capacitors near the heatsink are bulging and have a fun brown crust coming out of the top of them.

It technically does have a "lifetime warranty," however I do not have the receipt anymore (the card is a year old.) There may be a way around this, but since I was thinking about upgrading it in the near future anyways, I may as well just do it now.

Right now I am thinking about getting this Radeon 9600 pro: http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?description=14-102-291&refer=pricegrabber

Its a step up from my old card, it is dx9 certified and most importantly, the price is right at near $150. I fully realize that a 9700 or 9800 would both be better, but the price is out of my reach. I've also heard about the benefits of a 9500np/pro, but I think I'd rather not take a chance on modding a card to make it worth getting, and the 9500pro's are expensive now and hard to find.

The only other choice I can think of is one of the FX cards, such as the 5600...but to tell you the truth they don't sound that impressive. That coming from someone who has always used nvidia. Or buying another ti4200...but since I wanted to upgrade sometime soon anyways, that seems pretty pointless.

So, is there any reason I shouldn't get a 9600pro (ie, is there a better alternative?) I am already close to making up my mind on this, but I definitely wanted to ask everyone here before I click "order" :D

[PalominoBURN]

OK well I completely understand your position. I just got my first ATI radeon 9800 NP the other day. I am very impressed with the physical quality and performance, I got this thing running skyhigh CORE speeds. I suggest you get teh 9500 though if you can. They are faster and more worth your time I believe. I would stay away from the FX cards, unless your getting a 5800 or 5900. Word of advice about ATI... I hate their drivers and the amount of conflicts I have been put through. However the picture quality in comparison to Nvidia is ... NO COMPARISON. ATI's picture is sooo much more CRISP, VIVID, and smoothed. I won't go back to Nvidia untill I see something remarkable from them.

[Evnas]

Originally posted by PalominoBURN
Word of advice about ATI... I hate their drivers and the about of conflicts I have been put through. However the picture quality in comparison to Nvidia is a joke. ATI OWNS!!!

My experiance with ATi has been the exact opposite (with their drivers that is). Never had a single problem with em. And as Pally said...the IQ is damn nice

[PalominoBURN]

No don't get me wrong, I think the design of the Card is AMAZING. However my driver experiences with ATI thus far have been nerve racking.

[cack01]

My three thoughts:

A. If you bought the card from New egg, then you do not need the receipt, and you will only be without the card for a few days. Also why do you need a reciept when the card has a life time warranty, does it say you need one.

B. Since sodering is a skill we all need to learn, why not find out what kind of caps are on the board and then try to replace them. If the card is pretty much dead, if you fail nothing is lost, and atleast you tried.

C. Since money is a problem, I would really try the first two options. If they fail, then go for the 9500 pro.

[Chaos_Being]

Ah yeah i forgot to mention what I'm going to be using this card for- primarily Final Fantasy XI when it comes out this fall (which will coincide with the building of the machine in my sig. The new card will go in it.)

a 9600pro should be enough for that game I think. I'll reconsider the 9500 pro though...guess I'll have to check the 'ol bank account.

The thing I am really wondering now though is, if I did get a 9500np and was unable to do a softmod, how does the 9500np stack up to the ti4200? I don't want to take a step back. But, I just read how easy the softmod is...probably shouldn't have read that! :p

So, it really comes down to: is the 9600pro worth it, and *if* (and that's a big if at the moment) I chance the 9500np and fail the mod, what sort of a card performance-wise am I going to have? Because most likely that 9500pro is going to be out of my budget, no matter which way I look at my bank account :-/

[Chaos_Being]

I bought the ti4200 from best buy (yeah I know.) I checked pny.com and they specifically say that you need a reciept in order to cash in on the warranty.

[TheGr8s1]

Have u tried Ebay? U can find anything within your budget if your lucky. Because prices vary so much on ebay it wouldn't be a shock to find a 9700np for a good price or even a 9500pro/np.

[]-[itman]

Well, the extra ram on the 9500 would be helpful for larger and/or higher quality textured games and I'm pretty sure the 9500 would take a significant lead over the Ti4200 when you start enabling AA and AF. I'd probably say right off the bat, you wouldn't notice any framerate difference between the two(the 9500 might even be a little worse with the GF4's high fillrate), but once you start getting into the newer games, the 9500 would outperform the Ti. For $140, softmod or no, it's a good buy, heck, it's $30 less than I paid for my 64mb Ti4200. Whatever you do, I'd buy from Newegg, great customer support and they're giving free shipping with it right now.

[Overclocker550]

What about another ti4200 64mb till dx9 games come out then get a 9700 non pro cheaper than it is now? I sold my 128mb ti4200 for the 64mb cause those oc better and I want to break 14k also games will run much faster

[Wam]

I did the same thing a little while back. I also had the 9500np and 9500pro for a while. I tried to softmod the 9500 but got artefacts in some games. If it works this is your best option but it is a big if. I would have thought that the cards would have stopped softmodding by now but people seem to be getting them regularly on Newegg. If the 9500np doesn't mod it's slower than the Ti4200 and only better when you turn on AA & AF

The 9500pro is probably the best value for money but they are hard to find. The 9600pro is good but you'll have to get a good overclock out of it to bring it up to 9500pro overclocked speeds.

If you can somehow stretch to or find a cheap 9700np or even pro (like I did ;)) then this would last you longer and you will see the greater benefits all around.

[Chaos_Being]

I think I am still going to get a 9600 pro, and just overclock the heck out of it. I can't find a 9500 pro at a price I can swallow, and I'm not willing to chance the 9500np softmod.

The 9700np is definitely the best cost/performance at the moment (saw them for around $200 on mwave.com I believe, although they are out of stock,) but that is just a little too far out of my price range. Especially since I did not exactly plan on buying a new video card this year, heh :o I do appreciate all the feedback I've gotten so far though.

[drunksquirrels]

best bet is a 9500 -> 9700 softmod but if you are uncomfortable with the risk that the mod wont work then get the 9500pro, it is better than the 9600pro because it has all 8 rendering piplelines on VS the 9600pro's 4 pipelines

[Overclocker550]

he cant afford a 9500 pro. the 9600 pro might match a ti4200 without fsaa and in older games but itll be better for newer dx 9 games, but those games arent out yet

[El<(')>Maxi]

Hey Chaos, get the Sapphire 9500np. Trust me. Even if it won't take the softmod if you overclock it, it will still beat a heavily overclocked 9600pro.

Go search the orb. And from what I have seen lately, it seems like more people are getting good softmods now. It's still a gamble, but one worth taking imo.

[Overclocker550]

uh no, I doubt a heavily oced 9500 np can even match the stock 9500 pro. I would just get a 9700 pro

[Wam]

I overclocked the 9500np I had to 365/310 and I have to say I was a little disappointed by it unmodded. It was barely faster than my Ti4200 (540/280) and the only real improvement you'll see is in AA & AF.

I'd have to agree with you that with your constraints the 9600pro is your best option. Let's just hope you get a mammoth overclock out of it. :)

[El<(')>Maxi]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
uh no, I doubt a heavily oced 9500 np can even match the stock 9500 pro. I would just get a 9700 pro

I got news for you, a 9600Pro is a lesser card than a 9500Pro. And if he cannot budget the 9500Pro then why would you reccomend a 9700Pro?

Originally posted by Wam
I'd have to agree with you that with your constraints the 9600pro is your best option. Let's just hope you get a mammoth overclock out of it. :)

Again, I would have to disagree. Even if you get a high overclock on it the Overclocked L shaped RAM 9500np will beat it.

I recently got a 9500np.....Sapphire from AllstarShop.

I was able to clock it all the way to 394/317 without the softmod, and scored 14,671. System @ 2190mhz

Now if you search the orb..........the highest score for a 9600 is 14,263 on AMD platform. That system is running at 2443mhz.

Then there's this score (http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6679916) that is from a system almost identical to mine with a pretty heavy card overclock, and he scored only 13,098.

So, I would go with the 9500np(SAPPHIRE) based on this. And if it softmod's, you can add another 2-3K to your scores.

See sig for my results

:p

[Molybdym]

Can anyone find a 9500pro? I'm going to be in the market for a DX9 card in the future, and I'd love one. So the 9500pro has the 8 pipelines, but still only the 128-bit memory interface? I so want the 256-bit, I like a nice wide open highway.

Chaos_Being, sorry for the thread hijack:(

[Damian]

There's a name for a Radeon 9500 pro with a 256-bit bus... it's called a Radeon 9700 ;)


The reason that an overclocked 9500np is faster than an overclocked 9600pro is that the 9500np has a 256-bit mem bus while the 9600 doesn't. HOWEVER, not all 9500nps have a 256-bit bus; only the ones on a red PCB and with the RAM arranged in an L shape do.

I'd say get a 9500np, provided it's 256-bit. (I think allstarshop is the only store that really guarantees it, although newegg might too) Not only do you have a chance at a softmod, but even if you fail you get a card that when overclocked is faster than an overlocked 9600pro.

By the way, from what I've heard, the newer 9600pros don't o/c as well as the older ones.

[Wam]

@El<(')>Maxi
I think we both agree that a 9500np is not faster than 9500pro both overclocked to the same speed. With that in mind take a look at this (http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/radeon_9600_pro_overclocked/default.asp) review of an overclocked 9600pro & 9500pro.

I myself was disappointed with the 9600pro but it seems that after a good overclock it closes the gap and in some instances surpasses the 9500pro. Look at the actual games results esp with 4xAA & 8xAF which is at least what most people with Radeons like to use.

If you get a huge overclock out of 9500np (like you did ;)) then maybe it will be faster but if you look at the game results i.e UT2003 1024x768 4xAA 8xAF (not 3DMark) look how a far a 9500np has to come from.

[El<(')>Maxi]

Hmmm,

Originally posted by Wam I think we both agree that a 9500np is not faster than 9500pro both overclocked to the same speed.

I am not entirely sure that I would agree with the this. In fact........I would very much like to test this.

I think the 9500np w/red pcb, L shaped Ram may in fact have an advantage due to it's 256bit bus. It's really a 9700 with 4 pixel pipes. I'm gonna change to the Omega driver maybe tomorrow to test against the W1zzard hack. When I do, I will run an 03 un-softmodded @ 355/315 to match the 9500Pro scores in your link. That might be a good first step to answering this question.

The benchmark you posted I have seen before. It seems pretty accurate, however, the 9500 card(Sapphire), used in those benches is running at stock clocks. And at stock, your right, it can't compete.


:p

[Chaos_Being]

hmm...

So you guys are saying that a 9500np once overclocked will get a higher 3Dmark score than a 9600 pro overclocked. The only thing I'm curious of, is how that translates into real game performance. I'm all for getting a high benchmark score too, but what I'm really buying the card for is gaming performance, ie framerates, visual detail, etc.

This all just seems strange to me because I was under the impression that the 9500np was not *that* fast without the softmod. So, the scores are definitely interesting but I'd still want to know about some real gaming results first. After all, if I buy a 9500np I might get one that won't softmod and worse, won't overclock for crap. Then I'd be stuck with a downgrade (maybe?)

Just to add another bit of info to the discussion, the price difference between a Sapphire 9500np and a Sapphire 9600 pro on Newegg is a measly $10. Which eliminates any arguement of getting a 9500np to save money (all other points are still valid however.)



Edit: the 9500np at allstarshop is $11 cheaper than the one at newegg, $135 with cheapo ups shipping vs. $146. That makes a difference of $21 in price, $20 if I bought the 9600pro at allstarshop (seems like a nice site!) They do seem to guarantee the red pcb (I guess that means it *will* have L-shaped ram as well?) but not that it will softmod in any way, hehe.

One more edit question- if I were to chance the 9500np, how much power does it draw? After all, it will be sitting in my crap dell xps733 for a few months, and I think it only has a 125 or 175w power supply :eek:

[Wam]

I had a 9500np with the 256 bus and overclocked it to 365/310, I also had a 9500pro at the same time and overclocked that to 355/310. After my tests I remember the 9500np didn't come near the 9500pro. This was in games and 3Dmark.

Here are my compares at stock default speeds (My system was slightly faster than the one in the review: P4 2.8 v 2.87 with higher bus & mem)

9500np.... http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=5672826
9500pro.... http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=5665851
Ti4200 (535/275) http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=5251528

It's a shame I didn't upload the overclocked scores but the 9500np was about 13400 and the 9500pro was around 14500 which was why I made my original premise about there respective speeds with the same clock. Even with the 256bit bus the greater draw back is the 4 pipelines. As soon as I opened up the extra 4 I got another 2400+ 3DMark01.

@El<(')>Maxi
You can only really compare your scores to the one in the review if your system is similar but it would be interesting to see what you get.

[El<(')>Maxi]

Originally posted by Chaos_Being
One more edit question- if I were to chance the 9500np, how much power does it draw? After all, it will be sitting in my crap dell xps733 for a few months, and I think it only has a 125 or 175w power supply :eek:

Yes, that is a serious concern. And maybe one reason to go with the 9600......no aux power connection required as it draws less juice. I think the bottom line is they are both good cards, with the 9600 being a sure thing. Whereas the 9500 is good too, but can be awsome if it takes the sm.


To Wam, OK, I trust your results if you had both cards. I'm still gonna run an 03 bench at the same clocks speeds as the 9500Pro. And I'm choosing 03 because it will basically eliminate any system differences as it focuses on the Graphics adapter.

[Chaos_Being]

Actually I was mistaken, it is a 200w power supply (made by Foxconn, ugh.) So it is better than what I thought it was, but still not very good. I'm running two hard drives, two cd drives and an assortment of pci cards, so the psu is probably somewhat taxed already. However, if a 9500np would run for now in my current pc, I might just go for it and see what happens.

Wam, thanks for the benchmarks. I'll be waiting to see what sort of benches El<(')>Maxi gets as well, this has turned into a pretty interesting discussion.

[james.miller]

Originally posted by ]-[itman
Well, the extra ram on the 9500 would be helpful for larger and/or higher quality textured games and I'm pretty sure the 9500 would take a significant lead over the Ti4200 when you start enabling AA and AF. I'd probably say right off the bat, you wouldn't notice any framerate difference between the two(the 9500 might even be a little worse with the GF4's high fillrate), but once you start getting into the newer games, the 9500 would outperform the Ti. For $140, softmod or no, it's a good buy, heck, it's $30 less than I paid for my 64mb Ti4200. Whatever you do, I'd buy from Newegg, great customer support and they're giving free shipping with it right now.
UNDERSTATEMENT. http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=198060

softmodded r9500, 108% faster at 4xFSAA, 8xAF

[]-[itman]

Originally posted by james.miller

UNDERSTATEMENT. http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=198060

softmodded r9500, 108% faster at 4xFSAA, 8xAF

In my post I was comparing the two cards if the 9500 wasn't able to softmod.

[Chaos_Being]

I think the bottom line is they are both good cards, with the 9600 being a sure thing. Whereas the 9500 is good too, but can be awsome if it takes the sm.


I went ahead and ordered the 9600pro - with what I have available, better safe than sorry.

[El<(')>Maxi]

http://www.leetllamas.com/forums/images/smilies/tup.gif

[1-Man-Army]

hey btw i think i saw one article sum were on the o/c fourms page were it says we cant use dell psu with other comps except theres, becuase a few off the wireing are switched aroudn, when u stick it in ur new mobo it will fry it. im not sure but u sohuld check it out its sum were in the front page.

[Chaos_Being]

Well I just got my 9600pro today and installed it. Driver install was super easy, I didn't run into any of the problems some have described with ATI cards. The visual quality seems to be a little better. I do get almost exactly the same 3D mark 2001 score as I did with my old ti4200, but I really think that is because my cpu is the bottleneck (733mhz PIII.) Especially since I only got about a 100 point increase from a 40mhz core/ 45mhz ram overclock on my old card.

So, I am pretty happy so far. I still need to test it with some real games, but I know I'm not going to be able to see its true performance until I can put it in the machine I will be building. And I will still need to see how much I can overclock it- the ram says 2.8 on it though, so that is a good omen :D