Let's Play: Where's my bottleneck!!!

[Fallen Phoenix]

Welcome to the show folks!!! Today on "Where's My Bottleneck" we'll be examining The Fallen Phoenix's gaming rig to determine.... "WHERE'S....HIS...BOTTLENECK!!!"

Seriously guys, I've got:
1.5 gig P4 (finally fixed my cooling issues)
EagleTec GeForce4 MX440 128MB AGP 4X
256 MB PC2700 DDR RAM (SDRAM or RDRAM? Embarassed to say I forgot what the difference is)
Asus P4S333 Mobo
Maxtor 5400 RPM 15 gig HDD

I think that's all the info, if I forgot anything please let me know. I'm ready for an upgrade and I'm really leaning towards a RAID 0 setup with 2 Western Digital 7200 RPM ATA100 40 gig drives. I've got the cash to upgrade but I don't know what to target and I'm getting a nice new case with plexi windows so I feel like I should get something to make the performance stand out too.

TIA,
David

[larva]

Hmm, that's a tough one. A bottleneck implies that there is one component (the "bottleneck") that is severly impeding performance. Your system does not lack in one area, but pretty equally in all. There is no single bottleneck, just the fact that all the components are far enough behind the leading edge that you are ready to upgrade.

You dearly need more cpu and video power. The Willamette P4s were underachievers when new, and it's been a long time since they were new. Exactly how you go about fixing this problem depends entirely on budget. If you are intent on maintaining the existing motherboard and ram, you could pump up the framerate by adding a P4-2.4b or 2.53 processor and adding a video card. Another 256MB of ram would be a good idea too. I would consider a 64MB GF4-Ti4200 if price is truly the issue.

If you can spend a bit more the answers change. A more complete renovation would include a quality 865pe motherboard, two PC3200 dimms, a P4-2.4c, and again a video card. For a more expansive budget a ATI 9500pro or 9700 non-pro makes a lot of sense.

In any event you definitely want to get a new hard drive. There is no pressing reason to implement a RAID array, a single modern 7200rpm disk will give a staggering degree of improvement compared to your present drive. I woud recommend either a JB series WD drive or an IBM/Hitatchi GXP180 of adequate size for your needs. You could do a RAID, but you won't even know what you are missing if you don't and it will leave more in the budget to address the core performance issues.

[funnyperson1]

First on the agenda:

Get rid of your willy :p

Second:
Hard Drive

Third:
Video Card

[rdy2rave]

What larva said (said well as usual larva).

[Mr. $T$]

The Willamette core P4 is Horrable, so that needs to go, as for the RAM you have DDR, PC 2700 means DDR that can take speeds of 166FSB at a given CAS speed. Your video is not the best but is far from the bottle neck IMHO. And if you upgrade your processor you need to upgrade to a current socket 478 Motherboard. But the biggest two bottle necks that I see are the Hard Drive and RAM size.

I would put at least 512MB in a now-a-day machine because some games now are starting recommend 256MB. And 5400 RPM Hard Drives are way out the window. You will see a huge jump from a old 5400 to a new 7200 or even 10,000 RPM drives.

Based on the Hardware you have now I recommend you get:

Western Digital "Special Edition" 8MB Cache 7200RPM 80GB Hard Drice (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProduct.asp?description=22-144-122&depa=1)

OR For High Speed the:

Western Digital "Raptor" SATA 10,000RPM Hard Drive (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProduct.asp?description=22-144-200&depa=1) the only problem with this Drive is you need a Motherboard that supports Serial ATA, which almost ALL new motherboards do.

And for processor I suggest you get the:

P4 2.4c 800FSB with HyperThreading. (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProduct.asp?description=19-116-157&depa=1) The reason I suggest the 2.4c is it already has a high 800MHz FSB and HyperThreading which on some mulit threaded programs runs faster. Also these chips are very simular to the 3GHz P4 so If you plan to overclock this processor will not let you down.

And as for a Motherboard I suggest getting any name brand with the Intel i865 or i875 chipset, these chipsets are almost the same execpt the i875 is a little better and will offer more preformence, but the i865 is known to Overclock to i875 spects easly. To my knowledge all i865 and i875 chipsets have SATA so you can run the Raptor Hard Drive on them. Also if you upgrade to a P4 "c" chip you will need better ram, I think 3200 is what the P4 c's need. Because the Higher FSB needs a Higher rated RAM speed to keep up.


Hope that helps :)

[cack01]

Your main bottleneck is your video card. No doubt about that.
Next would be your CPU. The only problem, is that if you are going to replace the CPU, then you will need to get a new motherboard. Since this would be costly, your best bet it to get the ti4200 sugested earlier. All other options for upgrading will be costly, and it would actually turn out to be a complete new system, not a upgrade. The HDD may cause your system to load programs and bootup a tad slow, but I do not feel that is your main problem. If you do not play games, then I would go ahead and choose raid 0. But by the time you add up two HDD and a raid adapter, that may come close to equaling the CPU+motherboard price.

[RZA]

My vote goes for a video. MX440 is no good for hi-end gaming, and you don't even have a 8x version (which is significantly better). I expect some 50-70% game performance increase with GF4Ti4200.

[ferria]

or you could just get a socketadapter from www.powerleap.com and just buy a socket 478 P4 second would be a 7200RPm harddrive i sugest WD with 8MB cache,the vidcard i would leave for now it should play everything out there right now

but its all about the money you want to spend

[james.miller]

Originally posted by RZA
..... and you don't even have a 8x version (which is significantly better

thats completle rubbish. agp 8x doesnt even make the smallest of differences to agp x4

that system is so even that, as others have said, nothing there is currently a bottleneck.
Originally posted by RZA
expect some 50-70% game performance increase with GF4Ti4200.
Not with that cpu and motherboard.

If he upgrades to a gf4 ti4200, than his cpu becomes the bottleneck, and he definatly wont see a 50-70% increase in performance.

[Fallen Phoenix]

That HDD that Mr $T$ linked too looks soooo good. That's definitly gonna be on order ASAP. I think I'm going to put the case on hold since I've finally addressed the cooling issues with this one with a few well placed strips of duct tape, some zip ties, and a couple new fans. I just ran 3Dmark2001 SE and got a 4364. I'm not sure how that stacks up but I've never benchmarked my system before. I definitly play a lot of games though nothing really cutting edge yet, I'm stuck in my 'old school' mode revisiting games like C&C and Homeworld, may even go through HL again. If I end up needing a new system basically that's ok since I've been building computer since I was 12 and have been using them since before I could read (pong baby!). I really don't want to get a new video card right now since I got a great deal on my current one and I'm happy with it... for now. An upgraded CPU would definitly be a good idea I think, along with new RAM. If anyone is using an Asus or Abit board with a newer Intel chipset, I'd like your opinions and suggestions because I don't really like the idea of AMDs heat issues. I've kind of gotten into a long message so I'll cut this one here, I know I've forgotten something though....

David

[Fallen Phoenix]

Ok, a quick perusing of Newegg found me a new case for a price I couldn't pass up.

Case (http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=11-156-103-08.jpg/11-156-103-03.jpg/11-156-103-06.jpg/11-156-103-07.jpg/11-156-103-01.jpg/11-156-103-05.jpg/11-156-103-04.jpg)

And a decent HDD 60GB, 7200RPM.

HDD (http://www.maxtor.com/en/support/products/ata/desktop/diamondmax_plus_9/index.htm)

My only concern is that this is an ATA133 harddrive and I'm not sure if that requires something like a controller (http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=16-102-007) or what. Can someone enlighten me?

[Mr. $T$]

well Current Hard Drives don't even use ATA100 to it's full ability, that I why I linked the Western Digital Special Edition with 8MB of Cache, that 8MB of cache will make a difference unlike ATA133 which is pure Marketing that sounds good on paper but does not preform in real world tests.

If you upgrade the Video you will only see a difference in games (And possable color), but If you want to see a entire system boost the RAM and Hard Drive are your best bet. With the faster HDD programs will start faster, it will take less time to boot up and any other opreation that requires the use of the HDD will be boosted. And the RAM will also boost system preformence as well as gameing. I still have a GF2 MX400 Video card in my second machine, believe it or not I can play GTA3 with respectable Frame rates and just about every other game I own, but this is mostly due to every other part in the system being fast. So if you want total system preformence the Hard Drive and RAM will be great for the short term, but make sure you buy High Quality parts because you don't want to be stuck in this situation when your processor and motherboard need to be replaces also.


Also highly overlook is the opreating system, a good O/S can make once slow/unstable hardware look new fast and stable. So what O/S are you running.

[Fallen Phoenix]

I'm using Windows XP Pro right now and I think it works really well. It's pretty stable in my experience. Does that ATA100 drive you linked need a controller card? I don't see a link on that page, so if they're not trying to sell it to me, I guess I can't use it. Thanks for all the help everyone.

[cack01]

You will only need to get a card if you plan on using a raid array. ATA 66/100/133 drives plug right into the IDE interface.

I still think that the best bang for the buck upgrade will be the video card.

[moz_21]

Another thing will be is if you want to do an extreme upgrade and "jump ship". A high-end AMD system will be considerably cheaper than a high-end P4 system.

[Fallen Phoenix]

I can't see myself switching to AMD anytime soon, unless Intel really drops the ball I really like their stuff. The cost really doesn't matter to me, if I can afford it great, if not I make do with what I've got. I've got a case on order and the HDD that Mr $T$ linked to should be next on my list. I really really need some new RAM but if I upgrade now, would I need to upgrade again when I get a new motherboard and CPU?

[moz_21]

You said you have 256 MB of PC2700 (333MHz)) DDR RAM. That is DDR and all new motherboards use that so you would only need an upgrade if you wanted, say, PC3200 (400MHz) or higher ram. I don't know much about overclocking a P4, but I think you generally need very fast ram because of the locked multiplier.

[Yodums]

LOL FP1, that statement got me laughing so hard, I should quote it :)

Larva is right though, your computer as a whole, is getting outdated. Your willy core is really old and really lacks performance compared to the Northwoods that are pulling the huge ghz overclock+. Your video card is not very good as it is equivilant to a GF 2 MX400 I guess. And the HDD is rather slow since it's only 5400rpm.

I think you should really consider a big upgrade.

[Fallen Phoenix]

Well I got a new case last night, that will hopefully allow better airflow than the beige beast I have now, plus it looks cool :D I also plunked down the change for that HDD Mr $T$ linked to, thanks T :cool: That kind of spends all the cash I've got for the computer for a while since I'm saving up to buy a new truck, and at 17 don't have much disposable income anyway. Thanks for the help... now I'd really be thankful if someone could shed some light on the Willemate and why it's not good? I thought they were revolutionary when they first came out.