[Newbie] Is it worth it?

[didjerama]

hey all

I was after some advice, is it worth it to upgrade to a daul system?

I current have a Xp1600+, with 512Mb DDR333, and a MSI KT333 mobo. But im a graphic design+ media student who does alot of graphics and media work. But im also a gaming (now and again) so is it worth it to upgrade to 2 MP cpu's?

And if so, what do u recomend and what over hardware would help?

Cheers.

[cmcquistion]

WELCOME TO THE FORUMS!

I recommend reading the two stickies titled "What is SMP? Why Have A Dual ?" and "The MP, XP, Thunderbird and Duron SMP answer."

A dually will really help you most with applications that are multithreaded and multitasking in general. Most Adobe apps are multithreaded, so they can benefit from SMP. Most other apps, like games, aren't multithreaded, so they won't run any faster than a single CPU, but multitasking will be greatly improved, since you always have CPU cycles to spare for other apps.

Note: gaming performance relies more on your video card, then any other factor. You may lose a little on memory bandwidth, which can affect gaming performance, but the loss isn't that big. The gain is, your other running apps won't steal CPU cycles from your game, thereby slowing it down.

Best advice: read, read, then read some more. Read every thread in the last five days, in this forum. You can learn a lot, by just reading other's experiences.

If you have any specific questions, after reading around, then ask away.

[Bobby]

Welcome to the forums!!!

I don't think it'd be worth it to you to get a SMP system. It's gonna cost way too much and you'll only benefit from software specifically written to take advantage of 2+ cpus. You would also have to buy a new OS that supports MP computing.

It would be cheaper and easier just upgrading your motherboard/cpu/ram.

-Bobby

[cmcquistion]

Originally posted by Bobby


I don't think it'd be worth it to you to get a SMP system. It's gonna cost way too much and you'll only benefit from software specifically written to take advantage of 2+ cpus. You would also have to buy a new OS that supports MP computing.

It would be cheaper and easier just upgrading your motherboard/cpu/ram.

-Bobby

Do you have a dually?

We have a saying around here, "Once you go dually, you don't want to go back."

I use my main dually for gaming and it absolutely rocks.

[Bobby]

I've worked with a few but never used one as my workstation. I just couldn't justify the cost to any of my bosses. When I became the boss, I never really thought about it.

I don't know how much they cost but if it's anything like they used to a few years ago, I don't think it'd be worth it.

Take this with a grain of salt though. I've never used one on a daily basis. :p

-Bobby

[cmcquistion]

Baseline pricing for a dual AMD system will look like this:

High Wattage Power Supply -> $20 (you will need at least 450-500 watts for a dual AMD system. You can get a good, cheap 550 watt PSU from amamax.com for about $20, shipped. Here's (http://www.pricewatch.com/s/b.asp?d=3886852) the link.)

MSI K7D Master motherboard -> $176 (considered the best dual AMD board there is.)

two XP1700 T-bred B's -> $90 (you can mod these for SMP and they overclock very well. They are probably the most bang-for-the-buck CPU there is.)

Other items, you presumable already have. You can use up to two sticks of unbuffered DDR (I assume you're currenty using PC2700, or better.)

P.S. You will need a case with good airflow, too. At least two intake and two exhaust fans (if 80mm) are a baseline. For more information on good cases and quiet fans for duallies, see this thread. (http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=216753)

[BoogieMan]

Use my Iwill duallie for messing with videos and editing, so much faster than single its unreal!! And it is true, once you go duallie you wont go back. Would have to say though it really depends on what you like to use your system for.

BoogieMan

[Bobby]

Ruh roh.

I better get out of here before I start thinking about getting a dual proc system :p

-Bobby

[cmcquistion]

Originally posted by Bobby
Ruh roh.

I better get out of here before I start thinking about getting a dual proc system :p

-Bobby

Resistance if futile...

[BoogieMan]

Originally posted by cmcquistion


Resistance if futile...

LOL :D

[Bender]

You will be assimilated

Who said dualies were no good for gaming? I get 5615 in 3d mark 2003 using a modified Radeon 9500. http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=1088881
If you need to play UT2K3 at over 1600x1200 you need help :p

I sold my P4 rig and got my first dualie for less $ than the P4 parts sold for. I don’t think I'll ever go back to a single CPU machine.

[Bobby]

Dammit... where's my phaser when I need it? :p:D

-Bobby

[OC-NightHawk]

My dual xeon can hold its own playing games. I scored 14496 with my 2.4GHz@2.93GHz and a GF4 Ti4600. http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6705500

[zachj]

Me wantee . . .:drool: (there really ought to be a "longing" smiley . . .)

I want a dual Opteron, but I simply can't justify the price. And considering I'm gonna' lose MHz to a 1700+, it'll be slower in most of the crap I do now. I saw some benchmarks of a single Opteron, and it generally didn't hold its own over a P4 3.2, but in gaming, like the XPs, it beat Intel in some and lost in others. Of course that was the high-end 144 Opteron. I'd cheap out and get the 1.4GHz, which will probably lose. I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy.

Two 1.4GHz Opterons- 500 dollars(?)
Dual Socket 940 mobo with AGP 8x- 250 dollars (?)
Radeon 9500 np running as fast as it will go- already have one
Bragging rights- Priceless

Whatdya' think?

Z

[verbatim]

If u do alot of graphics/video, like cmc said The dual processors just scream if the application is multithreaded. Of course even if the apps NOT multithreaded while u are encoding that piece of video u can still play games at the same time. This is why I got it, I didnt want my comp to be unuseable 4 hours at a time.

Win xp pro and 2000 pro OS's can take advantage of the dualy's.

[kaltag]

Originally posted by zachj
Me wantee . . .:drool: (there really ought to be a "longing" smiley . . .)

I want a dual Opteron, but I simply can't justify the price. And considering I'm gonna' lose MHz to a 1700+, it'll be slower in most of the crap I do now. I saw some benchmarks of a single Opteron, and it generally didn't hold its own over a P4 3.2, but in gaming, like the XPs, it beat Intel in some and lost in others. Of course that was the high-end 144 Opteron. I'd cheap out and get the 1.4GHz, which will probably lose. I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy.

Two 1.4GHz Opterons- 500 dollars(?)
Dual Socket 940 mobo with AGP 8x- 250 dollars (?)
Radeon 9500 np running as fast as it will go- already have one
Bragging rights- Priceless

Whatdya' think?


Z

Actually $514 for the procs, $270 for the Asus mobo, 1GB PC2700 160$. all totalled is $940. That's not HORRIBLE considering the price of Itanium, but definately a big investment. That's also assuming you use your currnet HDD and video card. Would be nice though.

[zachj]

Not too bad of an investment, but that's the price of a very high-end Xeon system which blows it away in almost every benchmark, doesn't it?

I don't encode video because it takes too long. I have a TV tuner card and I record the Simpsons (well, I did until my hard drive got full . . .). I loath not being able to use my computer for simple things like AIM while I'm recording. It's only a half hour, but it's rediculous. If I could record while I write a paper for school or something, that would be nice. And if I could encode straight to AVI instead of being forced to do it in MPEG so it won't be at like 15FPS, that would be nice too. I know Xeons excel at that kind of work, so I guess it would make more sence to get a Xeon than an Opteron.

But bragging rights of an Opteron?

Z

[cmcquistion]

Originally posted by zachj
Not too bad of an investment, but that's the price of a very high-end Xeon system which blows it away in almost every benchmark, doesn't it?

I don't encode video because it takes too long. I have a TV tuner card and I record the Simpsons (well, I did until my hard drive got full . . .). I loath not being able to use my computer for simple things like AIM while I'm recording. It's only a half hour, but it's rediculous. If I could record while I write a paper for school or something, that would be nice. And if I could encode straight to AVI instead of being forced to do it in MPEG so it won't be at like 15FPS, that would be nice too. I know Xeons excel at that kind of work, so I guess it would make more sence to get a Xeon than an Opteron.

But bragging rights of an Opteron?

Z

I record TV, on my AMD dually, while multitasking, with no problems.

[zachj]

So who thinks I should build a dual Xeon system for college?!:D

Doing CAD as well, by the way

Z

(I figure I'll be fine with a 1.6/7 GHz Pentium M and 64MB Radeon9000 laptop, though I haven't purchased yet)

[cmcquistion]

Originally posted by zachj
So who thinks I should build a dual Xeon system for college?!:D

Doing CAD as well, by the way

Z

(I figure I'll be fine with a 1.6/7 GHz Pentium M and 64MB Radeon9000 laptop, though I haven't purchased yet)

I think you should buy a cheap dual AMD system, overclock the crap out of it, and have SMP fun!

[zachj]

The crap, eh?:D

Is that in addition to my laptop, or instead of? I haven't made up my mind. I'm sure I can find a cheap new one, or a used one, if I really need a laptop.

Z

[cmcquistion]

I'm not crazy about laptops. In my opinion, except under rare circumstances, they are a bad investment.

They are slow, can't be upgraded, and cost twice as much than an equivalent PC.

[bulk88]

Originally posted by cmcquistion
They are slow, can't be upgraded, and cost twice as much than an equivalent PC.

Hell no, You can get a winbook (http://www.winbook.com/press/2003/060903.html) for $799 2.0ghz P4 celeron. HAs 256mb ram, 20 gig HD, LAN, modem, 14.1–inch screen with 1,024 by 768 resolution, and memeory is DDR (probubly 266), and dvd drive.

In CPU speed laptops almost match a non-oc'ed desktop. Video also is close to desktop (ATI Radeon Mob. 9600, Nvidia Geforce GO FX 5600). And there is almost no upgrading without voiding your warentty, except if you have a Alienware ($$$:mad: ). And why would you need all that power, just to type MS word and go on the net from bed/park/starbucks/mcdonalds/ally way of big corporation:cool: and play games. (note: I know you can say video editing but it isn't fesiable, also I can't think of a single game that will stutter on a 5600).

Your right about little inter model compatibility, even with batteries and drive bays. There is hope in the future with Dell (http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030729.gtdelljuly29/BNStory/Technology/) offereing component swaping among many models.

Another point you forgot to mention is you can't OVERCLOCK laptops, they are run at the specification breaking point for temperature and just about to :burn: (burn) up.

[zachj]

I think the term "investment" might be a little off, as they don't depreciate nearly as rapidly as their desktop counterparts. But they do suffer from the fact that they're over-designed.

The Pentium M, however, makes them pretty fast. Laptops are better for college kids than desktops in most situations, because dorm rooms are so freaking small. Desktops are only really suitable for those without the funds to get a laptop or for those that need the extra power available in a desktop for video editing and whatnot. As a home user, however, they would be a silly choice for all but the most wealthy people.

I want one for college because my desktop is huge and I'm in an economy triple. I don't figure I'll need to take my computer to the class room with me, but it would be nice. As all I'm doing is CAD, I don't really NEED a massive desktop, and space would be nice to have. I also like the fact that it will serve as entertainment on the long flight home.

Z

[OC-NightHawk]

Originally posted by zachj
So who thinks I should build a dual Xeon system for college?!:D

Doing CAD as well, by the way

Z

(I figure I'll be fine with a 1.6/7 GHz Pentium M and 64MB Radeon9000 laptop, though I haven't purchased yet)

Sure you can build a great xeon system for under $2000. Mine only cost me (yeah only :D) $1865.

If you don't need raid then the best bet is the DPI533 motherboard for $290. You can use 533MHzFSB Xeons at about 680MHz+ depending on ram speed and a little bit of luck. If you'r willing to do a simple voltage mod you could pull 800Mhz FSB easy at 3.06GHz with a 2.4GHz 533MHz FSB Xeon easy. I suggest you invest in some 60mm t0 80mm adaptors and 80mm fans to replace the 60mm fans, or a nice heatsink for the xeons supporting 80mm fans off the bat. There should be a topic you can search for in this regard at www.2cpu.com The Xeons mention cost about $240. So thats $770 so far. A GB of PC3200 DDR ram will jack the price to about $956 if you buy two sticks of 512MB PC3200DDR. Then a ATI 9800Pro would tack on $300. so thats $1256. Plus ~$90 - $100 for a good 460W+ EPS12V power supply. So thats ~$1351. The rest is up to you, but this machine would be kicking some serious butt.

[zachj]

If I were to get a dual Xeon, I'd probably get that board and those processors, but I'd leave out the video card (I already have a 9500NP . . . doesn't soft mod, but plenty fast enough). I'd also leave out the PC3200, as I'm probably not going to go for 800MHz FSB. I've got PC2700, so 667 is plenty high, I think. And I have a PSU.

So that's not too bad.

I can still buy a laptop with what's left!

Z

[OC-NightHawk]

Who said xeons have to be super expensive? :D

[zachj]

Who said Xeons have to be very expensive? Ummm . . . Intel, per Newegg's current pricing on Xeon 3.06GHz. 950 just for the pair of processors.

But, yes, they can get cheap if you know how to overclock! There are still benefits to our little hobby.

[thread crap]
Of course, I couldn't tell you I've realized any benefits from it. I overclocked my 1700+ from stock to 1666 running at 10x166 and it's slower in 3DMark2003 by 1000 whole marks. But, yes, it looks like it's very fun over on the Intel side. Maybe I was just cut out for Intel, not AMD?

We'll see

[/end thread crap]

Z

[OC-NightHawk]

Don't let intel fool you, I could sware they under rate the xeons by at least one or two grades easy. I mean if intel stuck another pin in my xeons and called them 2.8GHz 533MHz FSB xeons a non overclocker would never know. I personally wouldn't dream of buying a 2.8GHz xeon let alone a 3.06GHz. They are too expensive. Of course then again the larger cache in the new 3.06GHz Xeons would be nice. :D They don't "have" to be expensive, you just need to... um cheat. ^_^

Maybe when you benched that amd system you were not at optimal FSB to multi. Did you try tweaking it up and down in an effort to find the best combination? Lets not forget that overclocking the video card is another big factor.

To give you an idea, I'll show you two benches of 2001SE for my rig. The first is when my rig was at 3.06GHz until I found out shortly later that 3.06GHz wasn't quite stable. <_< The second is it at 2.93GHz and a overclocked video card. I almost recouped all the points lost from the slower clock speed with the boost in the graphics card speed.

Duel 2.4@3.06GHz Xeon w/ GF4Ti4600 318/728 14620 http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6664234
Dual 2.4GHz@2.93GHz Xeon w/ GF4TI4600 320/735 14496 http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6705500

[zachj]

I didn't try tweaking, as it was just to see if it would work. I couldn't run 166 before because I was running dual channel PC2100 while my PC2700 was in RMA. When I got it back, I managed to really bork my computer and it took two days to get it back in working order. Now that it's working, I'm a little hesitant to try to tweak it too much.

I didn't overclock the video card because I wanted to compare my baseline performance (all parts stock) to just the overclocked processor, which apparently had the opsite affect . . .

Is the cache in the new ones 1MB instead of 512k? Also, are Xeons multiplier unlocked? Somebody (was it you?) linked to a geocities page where it said to choose a multiplier lower than 24, which sounds to me like they're unlocked.

Lastly, I've almost 100% decided to get a dual processor machine for college, so much so that I'm about to sell all of my other stuff. What I need now is a legitimate suggestion on what to get. Xeons are the clear winner right now, but they're closer to the end of their life-cycle, while the Opterons are just starting out. When 64-bit (if) takes off, I'd like not to have to spend an arse load of money making that possible. Taking those two things into account, considering the price similarities, what should I get?

I'd like SATA RAID on board, if possible.

Z

EDIT- is the Asus (the new one based on the Canterwood) a good board? Will it OC Xeons as well?

[OC-NightHawk]

Originally posted by zachj
Is the cache in the new ones 1MB instead of 512k? Also, are Xeons multiplier unlocked? Somebody (was it you?) linked to a geocities page where it said to choose a multiplier lower than 24, which sounds to me like they're unlocked.

Lastly, I've almost 100% decided to get a dual processor machine for college, so much so that I'm about to sell all of my other stuff. What I need now is a legitimate suggestion on what to get. Xeons are the clear winner right now, but they're closer to the end of their life-cycle, while the Opterons are just starting out. When 64-bit (if) takes off, I'd like not to have to spend an arse load of money making that possible. Taking those two things into account, considering the price similarities, what should I get?

I'd like SATA RAID on board, if possible.

Z

EDIT- is the Asus (the new one based on the Canterwood) a good board? Will it OC Xeons as well?

The only xeons that have 1mb of L2 Cache are the super expensive 3.06GHz xeons. Which is too bad for us right now, because it will be at least 6 months before the 3.06GHz trickles down to us.

I honestly can't say if you shold choose opteron over the xeons. It could go either way, but right now opterons are just too expensive to get opterons that beat out the xeons hands down.

If you want onboard sata and want the xeons get the DPI533-S. It costs about $330 instead of $290 though. Its a bit harder to find, but pricewatch should point you to some people that supply them. A quick email to iwill should also net you a list of resellers that carry the DPI533-s. I don't know if the Asus board features overclocking options. It doesn't mention it in specs, but then again the iWill boards have yet to toot that feature in the spec list.

[cmcquistion]

I agree. If you definitely DON'T want to use cheap AMD MP's, and your only choice is between Opterons or Xeons, I think you should go with Xeons. The Opterons are a little too slow and expensive, right now. Maybe in a year, they will be up to speed and the cost will come down, but at the moment, they aren't a real great value, unless you happen to run a server package that they excel at.

[zachj]

Well I finally have some information you can work with:

I'm (as of right now) getting a 15in TiBook 867MHz. I get an iPod and a printer for a grand total of 49 dollars. I end up paying 448 dollars to my mother, and she foots the other 1500 dollars plus warranty and tax costs (good deal, I suppose:) ).

I managed to save up a lot more money, though, because I didn't know how expensive what I wanted was going to be. So I'm going to have no less than 1000 dollars to work with. I'm going to sell all of the computering equipment I've got right now, as well, which (if I'm VERY lucky) will bring around 1000 dollars more, although I think I'm going to lose a lot in shipping costs. That's no less than 1500 dollars and up to 2000 dollars. So that's my budget. Now I can save the money and do nothing with it, as my laptop will do everything I need it to do, no matter what kind I get. I was thinking about maybe waiting until Christmas to buy another computer, as that's the first time I'll be home for more than 5 days. By that time, the 90nm process ought to be out, and I might have some better options than I do right now.

So my options are these:

blow 1500-2000 on something now
Don't blow it, but save it
Or blow it at Christmas when I have better options.

I think I might miss playing games and being able to record the Simpsons, though, so I don't know if I can part with my desktop. It's not going to fit in my dorm room, I don't think, and I certainly won't be able to take it back and forth, so it would probably end up staying here anyway.

What do you think? Keep what I have, or sell it and blow it, or sell it and just keep the money for a really rainy day?

Z