View Full Version : Best Intel Motherboard?
Simple question. What's the best intel (By which i mean p4... not sure if intel manufactures boards or just chips... but it can be any manufacturer) motherboard available. Need's HT support, 800fsb support, DualDDR, tons of overclocking functions, Mounting holes, and needs to be proven to hit high FSB. Doesn't need sata raid, gigabit ram or any of that junk. Basically, the fastest board, integrated features aren't really necessary... and as cheap as it can get.
2.4c is going in it. And probably an slk800u or slk900U. Might get watercooling if the parts come cheap enough.
Thanks.
Abit IC7 Max3... if it's too expensive than all of is7/ic7/p4p800/p4c800 are good
I bought a refurb IS7-E from newegg for 58 bucks shipped. It was complete, new, and unused. Abit had problems with the u shaped wires that solder to the board for the attachment of the northbridge heatsink, with one corner pulling out and the heatsinks loose out of the box. Somebody sent this one back to newegg unused as one fell out, they sent it to Abit, Abit upgraded it to the new heatsink style that only uses two of the four hooks, and I bought it unused for next to nothing.
All you have to do to change the Vdimm limitation is one resister on a feedback circuit that is used to determine the Vdimm regulator output. I removed the surface mount 0 ohm resisiter and solders a 385 ohm radio shack 1/8 watt unit to the pads and the board now yields 3V on the ram when set to 2.8 in the bios. A bit more is possible, although the voltage stability may degrade with resistances above 390 ohms.
Other than the wacky Abit temperatures, this is the best board I've had. It overlocks with abandon, taking my 1.8 to 190fsb where 180 looked like the limit previously. Memory performance is very good. If you can run the 1:1 memory mode you can enable Abit's PAT-like optizations and really get great performance. This is also true of the Auss 865 board, and believe even 875 has to be running 1:1 to enable PAT. I haven't used 875 yet though, so I'm not positive about that.
Larva, I don't think many ppl can spice up a board to your level mate :- )
so the IS7-E won't cut it for the normal user. And since the IS7-E is based on the 865P chipset - it's unlikely that it'll go up to 250+ MHz FSB reqd for a sweet 2.4C OC.
Lithan, Abit IC7 Max3 looks good, so does P4C800-E Deluxe are good high end boards. And they cost quite a lot too.
For less cost Abit IS7 or P4P800 should do u proud. MSI also makes good boards but I think ASUS and Abit are best for high OC and stability.
Originally posted by Z_oc
Larva, I don't think many ppl can spice up a board to your level mate :- )
so the IS7-E won't cut it for the normal user. And since the IS7-E is based on the 865P chipset - it's unlikely that it'll go up to 250+ MHz FSB reqd for a sweet 2.4C OC.
For the proof of the fallacy of both statements, inspect q149's sig above.
Hmm. Thanks. What would you say about an Abit IC7 retail for 120$? (What's the difference between that and the IC7 Max 3?) That sound like a good buy for me? (GameVe, a seller I trust... got my nf7-s 2.0 there.)
Although, most likely I will just grab a 2.4c, use it in my nonoverclockable dell board, and then keep my eyes out for a good deal on refurbs. I'm not scared of soldering on the board, or modding anything... but I'd pay a litttle more not to have to (As the cost of resistors and such adds up, and my time is worth a little, as soldering isn't my favorite thing in the world to do.) So, what boards should I keep my eyes out for, and what do they usually sell for? I don't want to break 150$.... and the board would have to be a gift from god for 150$. 125$ is more reasonable.
So far I've gotten recommended...
IS7-e (will need mods) 60$ refurbed ??? new
IC7 Max 3 ???
P4c800-e deluxe ???
IS7 90$ new
p4p800 100$ new
IC7 120$
Hi Larva,
Sorry for misquoting on the IS7-E - was under the wrong impression that this was a cut down version of the good old IS7.
Actually the E in IS7-E stands for Enhanced Audio performance according to the Abit website.
Regarding temps - I find most mobos are giving whacky temps. Asus temps seem too low, Abit and MSI on the higher side.
And on modding - I'd say q149 and you both are pretty hardcore. Both of you have excellent OC's on your CPUs. :-)
Originally posted by Lithan
Hmm. Thanks. What would you say about an Abit IC7 retail for 120$? (What's the difference between that and the IC7 Max 3?) That sound like a good buy for me? (GameVe, a seller I trust... got my nf7-s 2.0 there.)
Although, most likely I will just grab a 2.4c, use it in my nonoverclockable dell board, and then keep my eyes out for a good deal on refurbs. I'm not scared of soldering on the board, or modding anything... but I'd pay a litttle more not to have to (As the cost of resistors and such adds up, and my time is worth a little, as soldering isn't my favorite thing in the world to do.) So, what boards should I keep my eyes out for, and what do they usually sell for? I don't want to break 150$.... and the board would have to be a gift from god for 150$. 125$ is more reasonable.
So far I've gotten recommended...
IS7-e (will need mods) 60$ refurbed ??? new
IC7 Max 3 ???
P4c800-e deluxe ???
IS7 90$ new
p4p800 100$ new
IC7 120$
The IS7 (whether it be the cheap -E version, the regular IS7, or the IS7-G) doesn't need a mod any more than the IC7 does. It's just nice to be able to increase the Vdimm from 2.8 to 3V so easily.
The Asus 865pe tops out at 2.85V on the Vdimm, so if a IS7 needs a mod, the Asus does as well.
I like the Asus 865pe, but the AMI bios is a real turn off compared to the top-flight Award one on the Abits.
The new IC7 Max3 allows for more voltage on the memory, but costs a ton. A standard IC7 is a lot more affordable, and the IS7 gives you essentially the same goodness for even less. It's a 5 cent resister away from doing what the IC7 MAX3 does for peanuts.
The IS7-e omits the secondard PCI SATA RAID controller and firewire controller of the standard IS7. It is otherwise identical. It is spec'ed out as having the 3Com 10/100 enet, but mine had the same 3Com Gbit chip on it that comes on the Asus.
Newegg has had refub IS7-E's, IS7's, and IC7's of all flavors as refurbs almost constantely of late. Abit boards bought as refurbs from newegg have box, manuals, cables, and case tin. The Asus refurbs I've bought from them have nothing, just he board. There really isn't a loser between Asus or Abit 865pe or 875 boards, it's just that the IS7-E gives you the basic goodness for a lot less. If you aren't as cheap as I am, the more fully featured IS7 or an IC7 is a great deal too.
Oh, one other thing about the IS7-E, it uses the ICH5 southbridge instead of the ICH5-R of the regular IS7, meaning it lacks support for the Intel SATA RAID configuration.
Gregster
09-06-03, 06:09 PM
Hi im a newbie and i wanted to know which mobo is better, if I am willing to spend the money, the asus p4 800 e deluxe or the Abit IC7 Max3?
If you mean the P4C800 Asus it is similar to the Max3 except I believe the Abit has higher limits on the memory voltage. Both are good boards, although it appears the Abit may have a tiny bit more potential from an overclock standpoint.
Like he said, basically any of the above needs a Vdimm mod for a high Vdimm except the Max3. With a Vdimm mod you can bring the voltage as high as your psu will let you.. mine is at 3.37v right now. With a 3.3v rail around 3.4 your max is around 3.28v
If you don't think the IS7/865 will perform take a look at this bench with my IS7.. i don't think you will find a higher memory score on these forums.
http://q149.netfirms.com/cgi-bin/mba10.cgi
Gregster
09-06-03, 08:21 PM
in simple terms how far can i push 3700 corsair xms with that board? could i get it to 4000?
thanx for ur replies
Actually my OC is only 1.86v @ 2425 right now.
Now I'm testing stability on 1.84v @ 2425.
Originally posted by Lithan
Actually my OC is only 1.86v @ 2425 right now.
Now I'm testing stability on 1.84v @ 2425.
With which CPU?
A 0251 JIUHB 1700+ From newegg for 50$ way back when (Right around Xmas). This will be the first intel I've built excluding my assistance on a few builds since that 200mmx.
After an hour Prime I hit an error at 1.84v. It's a rock at 1.85v though. I've been running it standard at 1.7v 2.28-2.34 (I tinker with my ram settings and front side bus alot... so I usually keep my multi 0.5 to 1 lower than I would run, because It saves me the bother of remembering to drop the multi when I raise my FSB.) Just wanted to make sure my recent voltage testing hadn't caused the overclock loss I've heard about. Doesn't seem to have. Can't remember exactly what I could get at 1.85 before but 2.4-2.5ghz sounds about right.
The way things look... there are no shortage of good mobos, so i think I'll keep my eyes on refurbs... and just pick up a cpu when the dell box gets here.
Originally posted by q149
Like he said, basically any of the above needs a Vdimm mod for a high Vdimm except the Max3. With a Vdimm mod you can bring the voltage as high as your psu will let you.. mine is at 3.37v right now. With a 3.3v rail around 3.4 your max is around 3.28v
If you don't think the IS7/865 will perform take a look at this bench with my IS7.. i don't think you will find a higher memory score on these forums.
http://q149.netfirms.com/cgi-bin/mba10.cgi
so is that like a decent speed for ram?
substratus
09-07-03, 04:46 AM
This thread is the perfect place to ask...
looks like there's some sort of an airflow gadget that comes with the IC7-MAX3. Also is very near the CPU socket. Does anyone know if the presence of big heatsinks (such as the SLK900-U)conflicts with this. In other words, is there enough clearance to accomodate said heatsink?
Originally posted by Lithan
The way things look... there are no shortage of good mobos, so i think I'll keep my eyes on refurbs... and just pick up a cpu when the dell box gets here.
That is the important point. The primary strength of the Intel platform is in the chipset. Intel may not have the most progressive cpu design, but they certainly have the most progressive and refined system architechure and the best inplementations possible. Since all the truly hard engineering work is done by Intel due to the highly integrated nature of the modern PC chipset, it is a fairly trivial thing to take the chipset and with the technical assisatance Intel provides produce a competent motherboard. Just like building a video card, the hard work is done by the chip-maker and the card-maker has an easy time of it.
The same holds true for AMD supporting chipsets. The only problem is their is no AMD supporting chipset that is as fast, stable, and overclockable as the nearly entry level 865PE. Nforce2 is a high performance affair, but is rife with irritations compared to the smooth running Intel stuff.
As far as exactly what board to get, that is a matter largely of your personal priorities. You mentioned in your orignal post you wanted the cheapest solution, but I guess you didn't understand just how cheap some of us are :D
It is a good stratedgy to watch the newegg refurbs and choose a good board. They have had Asus Granite Bay's for $41, P4P8X's for 68, P4P800's for 79, deluxes for 81. The most expensive Asus 875 can be bought for less than 125 this way. They also had lots of Abit's, with the $58 IS7-E, the $68 IS7, and IC7's for $85. Also they usually have MSI 875 boards cheap that will OC a ton. Some Epox, but I haven't seen any 865 or 875s as refurbs yet. Just figure out what matters most to you as far as features and pick out a nice one. The Abits I have bought as refurbs have been complete, with all accessories, cables, books, disk. box, port tin, evertying. The Asus one will be bare so if there is firewire or something on it it's hard to use.
Any easy way to identify a MSI or epox 865 or 875? What's the difference between the two chipsets?
Frankly, I think nforce2 is a better motherboard, due to the incredible onboard lan and sound... but it's not a better overclocker. You start with a quality rev, push it 2.0 vdd and actively cool the mosfets and passively cool the southbridge, as well as a nice all copper active cooler on the Northbridge... and you should hit 250. Imagine what it would do if you could hit 300-350 FSB?
Besides the fact that in 99% of cases a Nforce needs mods to hit 233 or higher FSB, the insanely hot mosfets (might be all recent boards), and the bios caps at 250 fsb on most boards. (In other words overclocking ability,) I gotta say Nforce2 is close to perfect. I'd much rather have Low cpu utilization 10/100, and low cpu utilizing audigy-quality sound than gigabit lan anyday. (Can someone tell intel this?) Just me, but I've never seen a gigabit lan, much less been hooked up to one.
An Intel/Nvidia board? Now that'd get me interested. Nvidia handles the features. Intel handles getting them to work at high FSB without needing a gazillion volts or Melting the heatsinks.
Oh and I've got firewire and usb ports laying around from my abit nf7-s 2.0 I'm too lazy to put them in because I dont own anything to use them, but they are there for when I need them, so long as the plugs don't change.
gamefoo21
09-07-03, 01:56 PM
gigabit lan using csa technology is low cpu utilization and very high performance.
Onboard sound is the decision of the board maker, Its not intels decision about sound if you want to get change complain to the mobo makers.
Also the Max3 question posed earlier is a very good one does anyone know this?
Also i somehow doubt Nforce 2's are better, you have to get a relatively recent one to even hit 200fsb stable with them. And the SoundStorm isn't included on all the Nforce2 boards either. NF7 and NF7-S come to mind. :D
Another thing Gigabit Lan comes in handy when you want to stream High Quality video across a network and other very network intensive loads.
Last Point with the coolers supplied on 875 and 865 north bridges most boards will hit around 280fsb out of the box. For a stock oc thats very very good.
If I am wrong please correct me :)
Originally posted by NoxioN
so is that like a decent speed for ram?
Yeah, i think ddr500 2-2-2-5 is pretty decent:)
substratus
09-07-03, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by gamefoo21
Also the Max3 question posed earlier is a very good one does anyone know this?
I bet it would fit, I don't think Abit would manufacture a board so conducive to overclocking and make that kind of oversight... I will be ordering one soon so I will let you guys know. :)
"Also i somehow doubt Nforce 2's are better, you have to get a relatively recent one to even hit 200fsb stable with them. And the SoundStorm isn't included on all the Nforce2 boards either. NF7 and NF7-S come to mind"
I've owned alot.
1. a7n8x Hit's 200... never tested past rev 1.02 I believe
2. A7n-8x Dlx Hits 210 stock rev 1.04 I believe
3. Epox 8rda+ Hit 213 stock I think, 218 or 223, around there with some minor mods. I forget the rev.
4. Nf7-s Hit 230 stock... bios patch a few months later took it down to 220. Rev 2.0
5. Soltek 75frn2-l Hits ~230 stock ver-D
6. Soltek 75frn2-l Looks to do about the same as the first, also Ver-D.
Have yet to see one in action that wont hit 200. Oh and the only board that I bought revision specified was the nf7-s.
Oh and Nf7-s Does have soundstorm.
My point wasn't that gigabit lan was useless in theory, but it would certainly be useless to me in practice, as I've never seen a gigabit network in person.
Originally posted by Lithan
. Need's HT support, 800fsb support, DualDDR, tons of overclocking functions, Mounting holes, and needs to be proven to hit high FSB. Doesn't need sata raid, gigabit ram or any of that junk. Basically, the fastest board, integrated features aren't really necessary... and as cheap as it can get.
I agree that the soundstorm is better than the AC97 sound on Intel boards, and the NF2 is a high performance affair (at whatever fsb it can reach). But by your own statements the integrated accessories aren't the focus, rather performance and overclocking. The fact that Intel's architecture has a functional level of FSB bandwidth in the face of the speed of the processor and memory subsystems, and AMD does not, means that the Intel platform has a lot more potential at present. Stellar, 300fsb type, overclcocking is common, and as icing on the cake the chipsets are the very definition of stability and refinement. After you have one you will understand.
As I said, Intel is not infallible when it comes to cpu design. But except for their forray into RDRAM nobody wanted, Intel chipsets and the timely architecture updates they employ set a standard for excellence that has yet to be matched.
When we look at my budget board, it makes AMD owners envious at the value. Think about it:
-3Com Gb LAN - Low enough cpu utilization as it is a PCI device
-supports 4GB of PC3200 in four sockets (2 pairs, DC, enhanced latency PAT modes at 1:1)
-supports the latest 800fsb P4 chips and OC's like mad
-Intel's excellent DMA100 hard drive controller
-(8) USB 2.0 ports
-(2) SATA connectors that run off the southbridge directly (bypassing the PCI bus for 2.5x the bus speed)
-And just-average ALC650 AC97 6 channel sound, with digital in/out
-The best latency charateristics, best PCI and AGP bus throughput, most theoretical and realized memory subsytem performance, and wonderful quality to boot.
So I stick a SBLive in it and disable the on-board. Great stuff for 58 bucks. When I get my ram finalized I'll post how fast some cheap P4 stuff can go.
Originally posted by larva
So I stick a SBLive in it and disable the on-board.
My thoughts exactly... still have my live from when I went from 8rda+ to nf7-s. And the reason I'm not concerned about onboard features is because there isn't any intel board with sound I'd use... and I'm not going to pay extra for decent onboard net when I've got a 3c905c-txm gathering dust. S-ata raid means nothing to me. Same with gigabit. The only onboard device beyond standard usb 2.0, ata100, etc that I would care about is good quality sound... With my nf7-s the only card I'm running is my video... gives plenty of room for cooling everything. And The intergrated sound was actually an upgrade for me. Pretty nice considering that the board was just barely over 100$. Put sound that can compete with the topend commercial cards on an intel motherboard, then I'd be impressed. I mean, how many people here are actually hooked up to a gigabit network?
There's no arguement that intel boards are better overclockers. I still think nforce2 have better integrated components.
Just bought a refurb IS7-E
"-(2) SATA connectors that run off the southbridge directly (bypassing the PCI bus for 2.5x the bus speed)"
You sure larva? All the specs I see, seem to think that the is7-e gets the gigabyte s-ata rinning off a realtek chip and tied to the pci buss.
I have tried a P4C800-E, 4PCA3+, 875-NEO-FISR2, A4XC-Max and the Asus hit 287 with a 2.40C, the MSI 283, the Epox 277, and the AOpen 260. Same CPU and components. The 4PCA3+ is hampered by the max 1.55 actual VCORE. It runs my XMS3500 the best as I have done 250, 1:1 or DDR500, 2-2-2-5 on it with two 512 MB XMS3500 sticks (VDIMM goes to 3.3). The MSI and AOpen have problems with many types of ram. The Epox gets the best unbuffered memory scores.
With CW boards, it's not a matter of which is the best but which has the least amount of idiosyncracies: it's the Asus. How good results you get with a board depends a lot on the ram you use.
BTW, I decided to test one 865 Springdale board so I bought an IS-7 at the cheapest place I could here in Japan. It came in the usual blue box. Was I surprised to find it's a version 1.2 with the funky IC7-MaxIII heatsink on the NB!!! When I opened the box, I thought they put a MaxIII in the box by mistake! Apparently Abit is putting this new heatsink on the later IS7 boards also.
gamefoo21
09-09-03, 06:58 PM
if a board includes csa technology that means the gigabit lan is hooked right to the north bridge.
Archangel8
09-09-03, 06:59 PM
so is that like a decent speed for ram?
ROFLMAO . . .is that a decent speed for ram? . . . bends over crying from the pain of laughing so hard.
I am sorry but that was too out there.
As for the IS7 being limited on fsb, my ass! As you will note form my sig I have both, and osme may criticize the AX4C, but a recent bios has fixed the probs with it and it rocks, but the IS7 can do what the i875 does and more I think if it had the right processor. The vdimm mod that q149 is using is not that difficult, and I can't wait to see what is does for these piece of %^$^ geil sticks I have, if nothing else I will fry them and send them back to Geil with a demand letter.:)
if a board includes csa technology that means the gigabit lan is hooked right to the north bridge.
You might want to add that this avoids the pci 133 bottleneck and allows an SATA to actually get close to a 150 mb/s speed, even though your limited to two sata drives on the csa serial ports.
Originally posted by Lithan
Just bought a refurb IS7-E
"-(2) SATA connectors that run off the southbridge directly (bypassing the PCI bus for 2.5x the bus speed)"
You sure larva? All the specs I see, seem to think that the is7-e gets the gigabyte s-ata rinning off a realtek chip and tied to the pci buss.
Smart move, hopefully yours will be a brand-new and complete example like mine. Value value value. The best overclocking board I've yet seen. It does 2.8V (prob a lttle less) on the memory stock and the mod to increase it to 3V or more is just swapping one resistor. It is small and fussy but cand be done pretty easily with an appropriate soldering iron.
Mine had the new 'Max3' style northbridge heatsink. In reality all the new Abit boards use this style heatsink, replacing the noisy and problematic first version. Most of these Abits that are coming through as refurbs at newegg are ones that had the problem with the fourth corner attachment point loose or fallen off and have been re-worked by Abit and fitted with the new style sink.
The SATA connectors on the i865/ICH5 equipped IS7-E connect the SATA directly to the southbridge, ICH5. And ICH5 communicates with the system bus at a 266MHz theoretical max. So the SATA is on a 266MB/s bus intead of the 133MB/s PCI bus. This is true of all ICH5 supported SATA connections which are included in all 865/875 boards. The higher end models are fitted with ICH5-R, which makes RAID 0 available under Windows XP via the Intel IAA bus mastering IDE driver, but offers no Win2K RAID support.
Most of the fully featured 865/875 boards offer an auxiliary PCI SATA controller to allow support for more than two SATA drivers and permit 4 drive arrays. They are commonly the Silicon Image or Promise PCI controller chips. I believe the Asus 865 deluxe uses a PCI RAID controller chip made by VIA. All these solutions communicate via the PCI bus and are implemented in addition to the southbridge supported SATA ports that ICH5 provides.
I have not installed the IS7 yet. Does it have something akin to PAT or is that only on the 875 boards? Is this thing only on at 1:1 and not at 4:5 and 2:3?
Don't you have to disable some option in the BIOS to overclock well (forget what it is)? I believe it's equivalent to 'Intel CPC' with the 4PCA3+.
Larva, any link on how to do the VDIMM mod?
What is PAt, and can someone show me what the new and old northbridge sinks look like, so I can tell which one I get?
I believe it stands for 'Performance Acceleration Technology'. On a 4PCA3+ board you can keep it on even at 4:5 and 2:3, by enabling an option in the BIOS. On the MSI and AOpen board, it only seems to work at 1:1. I'm worried about this on the Abit boards.
I did not see much performance increase with it on using the 4PCA3+, mainly because it was already running 2-2-2-5 CAS settings. I believe my 3DMark2001 scores went up a whopping 0.5% compared to it off. Same deal with the P4C800-E, which was mainly running 2-2-2-5 or 2-3-2-5.
PAT is a feature that is supposed to be reserved for te 875 chipset, which along with ECC support is the only difference between it and 865pe. Asus and Abit have PAT-like options in thier late model 865pe bioses. These, like PAT works primarily at 1:1. The technology is called GAT by Abit and is enabled in the advanced chipset menu by selecting Street Racer or F1 on the performance mode. It helps at 4:5 or 5:4 also, but has a more pronounced effect at 1:1.
The upshot is the IS7-E running in 1:1 mode with GAT set to F1 performs on par with a 875 board for less money. I am attempting to get my 1.8a running 190fsb at 1:1 with GAT enabled for 3.42GHz on chip along with stellar memory performance for cheap. Obviously it takes some mighty good ram to run the 1:1 mode with an OC'ed 800fsb chip.
In my testing with the Asus P4P800 enabling the PAT-like turbo performance mode raised the memory score on PCMark 2002 from about 9000 to 10,500 with a 2.8c running at default clock. I see noticeable fps increases in Q3 also that confirm the improved core performance that resuts from the reduction in memory subsystem latency the PAT and PAT-like schemes produce.
Here's the Vdimm mod:
http://www.theforumisdown.com/uploadfiles/0103/IS7.jpg
You have to remove the (0 Ohm) surface mount resistor that is orignally at the location the wires are soldered to now. I just soldered a 1/4 watt resistor directly to the pads on the board, or you can solder wires as shown and attach them to the resistor. Alternatively you can use a potentiometer if you wish to vary the value of the resistance. The board may be returned to stock by removing any added resistors and soldering the two contacts together with a solder blob.
You want something on the order of 300-400 Ohms. Larger resistances will result in greater Vdimm increase over stock. Some users report an instability to the Vdimm with resistances greater than 390 Ohms. I used a 385 Ohm actual fixed resistor and it resulted in a reading of 2.97V in the bios with it set to the highest Vdimm setting (2.8v). 400-450 Ohms will allow over 3V on the Vdimm, but may reduce the stability of the regulator circuit.
Thanks for the clarification, Larvae. Now I will have some idea of the settings in the IS7 BIOS. Do you have both the P4P800 and IS7? If so, which is the better board? I opted for the IS7 as I have never seen a used board here in Japan, which usually speaks well for a board.
Obviously it takes some mighty good ram to run the 1:1 mode with an OC'ed 800fsb chip.
Checking my notes, on an Epox 4PCA3+, I've run Memtest #5/#6 clean as high as 282, 1:1, or DDR564 using 2.9 volts with ADATA PC4000, 3-4-4-5 (CPU was not stable though, due to the 1.55 VCORE limit). It will be curious to see how this and XMS3500 perform on the IS7, but unfortunately, there is the 2.8 VDIMM limit. Thanks for the info on the VDIMM mod.
Unfortunately that A data ram is not as easy to come by here as over there. It sounds to be one of the good ways to go for sure.
I ran the P4P800 for a couple of days here in a system I built for a friend's kid. It had the Buffalo PC3700 BH5 ram (2x512MB) and it could run the PAT mode in 1:1 at 200fsb and also at 225. I didn't have time to press it any harder than that.
I like the P4P800 a lot but the AMI bios is a real turn off for me. The Award setup on the IS7 just suites me better. In addition I find the IS7's Vcore regulation noticeably better and the performance to be a tad sharper (through more agressive bios). I also bought the IS7-E because I got it cheap but I like the board a great deal as well.
Supposedly CH5 Winbond is hard to get PAT running on, I've got CH5 Buffalo 3200 coming so we will see. If not I'll rma it and get the 3700, I know it works, at least up to 450Mhz. All the CH5 has to do for me is run 380MHz with GAT at FI on 2.97V so I will be dismayed if it won't cut it.
Wow... the amount of vdimm the board can handle looks kind of dissappointing. I hear adata really shines at 3.1-3.3v... not that I'd ever run it that high anyway. What's the warranty situation on a-data, does anyone know?
Oh and I just dropped 169$ on a 2.4C... I feel... so... dirty... The dirt! It isn't coming off! AHHHH! Still not clean. Still not clean. Stink of overpriced cpu still on me!
Weeeeeeeeeeell anyhow. Hopefully it will beat my amd left and right (I have my doubts) and prove it's value... let's see. Intel: 58+169= $227, amd 120+50 = $170... doesn't sound so bad when put like that... but If I had to buy a new soundcard (luckily I kept my live) it would be quite bad again. Oh, and I found a use for that spark 7.
Let's see. Now I wait, and look for a good price on a second stick of a-data (trading for the first). (Another cost. Adata=170$ per stick... ram that maxed out my nf7-s was 85$ per stick, 512 sticks in both cases.)
Whichever system I like better in a few weeks, gets the title of main system, along with my fastest videocard, my dvd/cdrw, and my kenwood 72x. If it's the intel, it will also be getting my watercooling system, when I get the chance to buy a p4 block for it. The lowly and shamed secondary system will be air cooled, and kept in a cheap refurb board... forever shamed and degraded... the agony of it's defeat will surely drive it to madness and cause it to wail and howl into the night, taking to drink and passing out in a pool of its own urine, only to choke on its own vomit in its sleep.
How high can I go on voltage without having to worry about SNDS if I keep my temps good?
Well, I got the IS7 installed last night, but only so far as installing WinXP. Verdict: seems like a great overclocker, but needs help on the mem side.
I am running an L310xxx 2.40C that maxed out at 287 fsb, 5:4, DDR452, 2-3-2-5 on a P4C800-E at 1.600 VCORE. VDIMM is max 2.85. I am currently at 283 fsb Memtest clean on the IS7 at default voltage, which is actually 1.47! It's probably not 3D stable here but I was able to format my drive and install WinXP. This board should definitely outclock the P4C800-E with more VCORE. I'll do that tonight and test 3D stability.
Problem is Corsair XMS3500 consistently errors out in the #5 Memtest, no matter what VDIMM or CAS settings. Others have noticed the same problem with BH-5 chips.
I was able to get the board to run the ADATA PC4000, but best I could muster at 2.8 volts and 1:1 was 255, 3-4-4-5. You'd think I got lousy ADATA sticks, but the same sticks did 282, 1:1 on the 4PCA3+, at just a bit more VCORE: 2.9. It does do 5:4 at decent CAS settings: 283, 5:4, DDR452, 2.5-3-3-5 at 2.8, which is where I am now.
However the memory benchmarks are not impressive: at 255, 1:1 I get 5700 buff/2810 unbuff and at 283, 5:4 I get 6000 buff/2800 unbuff. I notice CPUZ says performance mode is disabled at both settings. I also have to run AUTO; Turbo, SR, and F1 won't allow me to boot.
Does anyone know what ram the IS7 likes? Which will allow at least CAS 2.0 settings at 5:4 up to DDR480? I imagine if I could run 2-3-3-6 my unbuff at 283 would go up to maybe 3k.
On the MSI 875-NEO-FISR2, I was able to muster the exact same overclock as this IS7: 283 fsb, 5:4, DDR452, 2.5-3-3-5 with ADATA PC4000, and I had the exact same mem benches. But that board maxed out there at 1.60 VCORE whereas on the IS7 this is just for starters at 1.47 volts. The MSI also did not like XMS3500.
I wasn't here to receive it today so I can't tell you how the CH5 works on it yet. Will be here tomorrow though. I find the memory performance on the IS7 to be excellent, although I don't have an Epox to compare to. I would suggest using PCMark 2002 to evaluate such things, Sandra is such a compact and synthetic benchmark that the number it yields is more curiosisty than it is solid performance metric.
No doubt F1 is the highest performing IS7 memory setting, I am running it at 5:4 right now and it is faster than SR. CPU-z reports my performance mode as disabled now, but I'm not sure if it knows. My PCMark 2002 is over 9,000 at 190 fsb 5:4 (304MHz) at 2-5-2-2, which seems high for the limited clock rate. Hopefully getting on the 1:1 multiple will boost the score over 10K, which I reallly doubt is possible without the performance mode regardless of what CPU-z might report.
I don't recall if CPU-z reported the performance mode as being enabled on the Asus 865, but it scored around 10,500 at 200fsb 1:1, 2-2-2-5.
Originally posted by Clevor
I was able to get the board to run the ADATA PC4000, but best I could muster at 2.8 volts and 1:1 was 255, 3-4-4-5. You'd think I got lousy ADATA sticks, but the same sticks did 282, 1:1 on the 4PCA3+, at just a bit more VCORE: 2.9. It does do 5:4 at decent CAS settings: 283, 5:4, DDR452, 2.5-3-3-5 at 2.8, which is where I am now.
I assume you updated the bios on the IS7. The latest versions purport improved stability at 1:1 in excess of 255MHJz. The Abit bios timings are very agressive, they typically are the highest performance 865pe boards, but may require work to achieve the raw clock rate of the Asus. As I noted I have not tried the Epox, but there is every chance it will be the leader on memory clock speed. Again, I really feel Sandra is too simple and rudimenary a test to put these results in the proper context.
substratus
09-11-03, 03:54 AM
I had updated to the 17 bios for my IC7-G. My A-Data PC4000 now has no problem running in the neighborhood of 270 mhz at the same 3-4-4-5 timings.
I would still recommend a volt mod or the new IC7-MAX3 to increase DIMM voltage further. I got the MAX3 since I plan to use the IC7-G to build a secondary system. Seemed to make sense seeing as how I needed a new mobo, I would get this bad boy. :D
Do not attempt to fit an SLK900-U on this mobo, however. Use an 800, or possibly the new SLK947-U (I have one on its way so I will verify this).
Looks like the IS7 likes HyperX 3000 just fine:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=12461&perpage=25&highlight=IS7*&pagenumber=6
substratus
09-11-03, 04:06 AM
Larva, you seem to know a lot about DIMM voltages and such... what, in your opinion, is the highest safe voltage for A-data DDR500 (or any ram, for that matter) on an IC7-MAX3? For daily use...
People fear needlessly about memory voltage. With the resistor I have currently fitted my IS7-E does 2.97V on the ram, and I don't mind to do it full time. If need be I will increase my resistor a touch and get up to 3.1V. I wouldn't likely run more than 3.1V on a continuing basis, but even 3.3-3.5V is safe enough in the short term.
substratus
09-11-03, 07:09 AM
If you were me, would you rig an extra fan to blow on the DIMMs? I won't do it if it isn't necessary.
What the hell is this northbridge sink? It looks like a nf7-s heatsink on top of an 8rda+ heatsink.
Looks new except one s-ata power adaptor is loose (unbagged)
Originally posted by substratus
If you were me, would you rig an extra fan to blow on the DIMMs? I won't do it if it isn't necessary.
Only necessary if your case ventilation is really naff, you would probably already have cpu temp problems if it were that bad.
Originally posted by Clevor
I was able to get the board to run the ADATA PC4000, but best I could muster at 2.8 volts and 1:1 was 255, 3-4-4-5. You'd think I got lousy ADATA sticks, but the same sticks did 282, 1:1 on the 4PCA3+, at just a bit more VCORE: 2.9. It does do 5:4 at decent CAS settings: 283, 5:4, DDR452, 2.5-3-3-5 at 2.8, which is where I am now.
However the memory benchmarks are not impressive: at 255, 1:1 I get 5700 buff/2810 unbuff and at 283, 5:4 I get 6000 buff/2800 unbuff. I notice CPUZ says performance mode is disabled at both settings. I also have to run AUTO; Turbo, SR, and F1 won't allow me to boot.
Does anyone know what ram the IS7 likes? Which will allow at least CAS 2.0 settings at 5:4 up to DDR480? I imagine if I could run 2-3-3-6 my unbuff at 283 would go up to maybe 3k.
I got my stick of ram in, and it does the job I've got to do well. I can't run the F1 GAT mode but Street Racer works fine and is fast. I am running 190fsb at 1:1 on 2.97V with the timings at 2-5-2-2.
Sandra Buffered is nothing special due to the clock rate at 4700. What settings are you running for your un-buffered test? I am running Sandra 2003, and with buffering and all the special instruction sets disabled I can get no worse than 2876 (at a mere 380MHz).
CPU-z does not detect the memory correctly on the IS7. It shows I am running 5:4 when in fact I am running 1:1 (as verified by the post screen, sandra, and the benchmark results). It does show the performance mode as enable and the timings at the correct 2-5-2-2, but blows the ratio.
As an excercise in improving the speed of my cheap junk, the IS7-e is spectacular. Consider:
SL6LA 1.8a (bought for 120 bucks some time ago from LandShark)
newegg refurb IS7-e ($58 bucks shipped)
2x512MB Buffalo PC3200 CH5 (179 bucks shipped)
-----------------------------------------------
$357 shipped
Retail P4-3.2 ($624)
Abit IC7-new ($129)
Same ram (179)
---------------
$932 shipped
Given that the above combo runs 3.42GHz and has stellar memory performance, it is both faster and $575 cheaper than a shiny new P4-3.2, a 875 board, and the same ram. Sure I give up a touch of fsb, have no HT (which really blows under 2K anyway) and have to live with 3.4GHz rather than having a shot a 3.6 or 3.8GHz. I'll live with it to save $575. This is the whole reason I overclock in the first place (although I admit it is fun).
If I can just score a bigger power supply and a newer graphics card on the cheap, I'll be satisfied for some time.
http://www.theforumisdown.com/uploadfiles/0103/PCMark.jpg
http://service.futuremark.com/compare?pcm=1500660
http://www.theforumisdown.com/uploadfiles/0103/3DM2001.jpg
http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6986135
Archangel8
09-11-03, 02:20 PM
Does anyone know what ram the IS7 likes? Which will allow at least CAS 2.0 settings at 5:4 up to DDR480? I imagine if I could run 2-3-3-6 my unbuff at 283 would go up to maybe 3k.
My IS7-G loves the Mushkin mem. Is stable at 227 fsb 1:1 f1 setting, and I am running it at 246fsb 5:4 F1, and getting sandra benches at 5450-5500. Stable under CPU Stability Test 6.0; and Prime95 24 hour run.
However, I am limited by my 2.8c, and would have to say that this mem could get an easy 6k with a 2.4c and more fsb.
The only complaint I have is that the mem does not seem to be able to function at loose timings. I have tried to set timings to 2.5-4-4-8 and boot to a 235 fsb 1:1 with no luck. The mem does not even support a cas of 3, and will fail to post at whatever fsb setting. But this is really not a complaint:) just an observation.
Archangel8
09-11-03, 02:25 PM
Hats off ot you Larva, your numbers on PCMark are excellant, even more so considering the 1.8 processor, thats an extreme OC.
Originally posted by Lithan
Wow... the amount of vdimm the board can handle looks kind of dissappointing. I hear adata really shines at 3.1-3.3v.
Not really, I have run the vdimm on my IS7 at 3.47v just fine. The main limiting factor is your psu... you need a 3.3 rail at about 3.4v just to be able to get like 2.29v vdimm.
substratus
09-11-03, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by larva
Only necessary if your case ventilation is really naff, you would probably already have cpu temp problems if it were that bad.
Cool, then it doesn't apply to me :D
Well I finished flogging the IS7 last night. I give up.
The first two boards I tried were the 4PCA3+ and P4C800-E and all I was running was 2-2-2-5 or 2-3-2-5 (on the Asus) and I thought, gee, par for the course. Well the last three boards I've tested: MSI (875/ICH5R), AOpen (875/ICH5R), and Abit (865/ICH5) were exercises in frustration!
Last night I flashed the IS7 to the 1.6 BIOS and yes, now I can boot over 255, 1:1. But my VDIMM shows as 2.7 in Hardware Monitor when set to max 2.8 in the BIOS. It's not the most reliable thing, but I do see 3.34 in Windows on my 4PCA3+ when set to 3.3 in the BIOS. :eek: As a result, the best I could do with my ADATA PC4000 was 263, 1:1, at 3-4-4-5. Heck, I could do 282 on my Epox board at 2.9 VDIMM. Memory benches were disappointing: 2800 unbuffered.
Also, these 875/865 boards boot up real high stable in 2D for Sandra screenies, but try running 3D - Bam! They kick out of 3DMark instantly. The IS7 ran 283 at 1.47 VCORE Memtest clean, but I found I had to drop down to 279 and up the VCORE to 1.62 to get it stable in all the 3DMarks. So the P4C800-E is still the champeen overclocker (287 fsb 3D stable).
With the new BIOS, I found I could run my XMS3500 on the IS7 at 2-3-3-6 Memtest clean at 275, 5:4, but - here we go again - I had to drop way down to 260, 5:4 to pass 3D, where I only saw 2700 unbuffered. XMS3500 are indeed extraordinary benchers. At 283, 5:4, 2.5-3-3-5 on the ADATA I got 2790 unbuffered. At way lower fsb of 270, 5:4, but at 2-3-3-6 with the XMS3500 I hit 3k unbuffered! That's the power of fast CAS settings. BTW, at 260, 5:4 my 3DMark2001 score was matched by my P4T-E RDRAM rig running 3.12 gig! I get around 2300 unbuffered on that rig.
Since I've since purchased another XMS3500 stick (my worse one yet), I thankfully reinstalled the 4PCA3+ to test it out at my previous highs on the board. Paired with a trusty Plat stick, had no trouble revisiting 277, 5:4, DDR443, 2-2-2-5, 2.9 VDIMM, at 1.55 VCORE. Totally clean in Memtest and 3D stable. Sandra unbuffered is once again 3200-3300, and PCMark2002 memory score is 11,160, not bad at all for the relatively low fsb and 5:4. PAT works too on this board at all mem ratios.
The beauty of the XMS3500? I cheated and tried 2.8 VDIMM at DDR443, 2-2-2-5, but got 1173 #5 and a couple of #6 errors. I upped the VDIMM to 2.9 and they all disappeared. I notice I did need to use 2.85 on the P4C800-E to do DDR440, 2-2-2-5. Feed it accurate voltage and with the right board, it's a science.
At this point, it's not worth flogging the IS7 for more performance or buying new ram, when I got the 4PCA3+ and P4C800-E. So I guess my IS7 will be the first one on the used shelf here in Japan. If I can find an earlier P4P800, I might pick it up in hopes it will outoverclock even the P4C800-E.
I do have an IC7-MaxIII on the way from Newegg, but looks like all I can rely on there is improved VDIMM voltage to get me a bit farther than the IS7.
I don't think I would chose the IS7 over the best 875 boards, the Asus, Epox, or Abit. It is a very good performer though, as demonstrated by the comparison between my unbuffered scores at 380MHz and the best your array of boards has produced. It is definitely picky with ram but with a pair it likes can produce stellar overclocks, great performance, and be cheap doing it. If your OC depends on reaching over 250MHz at 1:1 it's likely to take a bit more money (not to mention a few more combinations of components before you find the right one) than an IS7 and some common ram costs.
substratus
09-12-03, 02:28 AM
Clevor - good move with the IC7-MAX3. I am still waiting to try mine out tomorrow as I am also expecting a heatsink that will hopefully fit.
My board wont break 260 prime stable. I doubt it's the cpu, as raising another .10v won't get me from 259 (stable) to 262 (errors by test 12 of prime).
There is no doubt that IS7s have no difficulty breaking 260fsb. Coming from an AMD perspective, you assume that this is going to be a simple, paint-by-numbers affair that yields instant results. It's not. Finding a combination that really works takes just as much effort with a P4 if you want something truly special. Your cpu may be bunk (Although most reach 3.2GHz easily, nothing is assured), or more likely your particular ram or bios settings are putting a premature halt to the joy. 865 and 875 boards tend to be picky picky picky on the ram, and generally don't do so well with what was commonly accepted as really good ram in the past.
If you really think the IS7 has no potential, eat the 8 dollar restocking fee and try another make or model--no cheaper way to try out boards until you find the one that suites you. Just don't be surprised when it does not contain a bucket of instant results in the box.
You were right. The is7 just has crappy implementation of 3:2. Wont even run my ram at 177mhz on the 3:2 setting. This is ram that Has done 220-230 its entire life (and is doing 213 right now in fact)
If you have CH-5 you are lucky to even post at 260 with any ratio or settings.
If you don't then put GAT on auto/normal/auto/disabled/disabled if you haven't
Thanks Q149... got the same advice in another thread and it seems to be working. Primes getting much farther at 3:2 at least.
By the way, when your sig says L3, that would be from the SL6WF part of the code? So mine's an L6?
I still have no clue what part of the intel codes are typically similar in good overclocking chips.
Originally posted by Lithan
Thanks Q149... got the same advice in another thread and it seems to be working. Primes getting much farther at 3:2 at least.
By the way, when your sig says L3, that would be from the SL6WF part of the code? So mine's an L6?
I still have no clue what part of the intel codes are typically similar in good overclocking chips.
http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=187691
his chip is a 2003 week 21 malay
the L is code for malay plant and 3 is what year 2003 and next 2 digits are week.
Ok IS7 Fluctuates vcore WAY WAY too much. I need another recommendation.
Bump to see if we have any opinions on this board... Albatron PX865PE.
Remember... I've no qualms about a vcore mod.
my p4c800 deluxe is a good board but will cost triple what you paid for that IS7. I think all the new springdale and canter abit and asus are good boards but when you buy refurb you are taking a gamble. I would just buy any of them but buy it new. I have seen every springale and canter refurb on newegg myself but i didn't want to risk it so i paid $200 brand new back when the board fist came out.
go to the asus and abit website and just pick out 1 of the two chipsets and you should be fine.
hmm seems i am deciding now betweem the p4c800-e or the ic7-max3... seems its between these 2 for oc'ing a 2.4c ... any ideas?
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2012, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.