3 strikes nVidia is out?

[Twigs]

Strike one: FX 5800, need I say more?
Stike two: "Application specific programming" for 3dmark
Strike three: If nVidia doesn't pull a 747 jet out of their asses and get their 5900 performing better than the Radeon 9600, their out

so, do you think they can do it?

[I.M.O.G.]

What do you mean by "Nvidia is out" if they don't do something?

I think everyones emotions tend to get very caught up in the moment. Companies don't often dissappear overnight unless they are breaking laws. Nvidia will be fine, they are still very competitive... ATI's takeover with their latest chips just makes this a great time to be a gamer, competition is good for the market. This is going to be an endurance race between these two companies, and we will not see either of them going away any time soon.

[Speed_Mechanic2]

I would think it would more like 2 strikes. The exclusive application thing isn't worth a "strike".

Strike 1: 5800
Strike 2: (possible) Poor HL2 w/ 5900
Strike 3: ???

[slater3333uk]

I agree, sure you have to be very mis-imformed or lacking in the brains department to buy a nvidia card in the current situation

but still, im sure there are many unlucky and mis-informed people out there who will keep nvidia alive.

[Evnas]

Originally posted by slater3333uk
I agree, sure you have to be very mis-imformed or lacking in the brains department to buy a nvidia card in the current situation

but still, im sure there are many unlucky and mis-informed people out there who will keep nvidia alive.

More like "Dell keeps nVidia alive" ;)

[dansonang]

All this Ati vs nividia crap here only affects the high end market like gamers and ppl in the o/c community. We ony represent a small portion of ppl who really want HIGH PERFORMANCE CARDS for better game performance and graphics. The mid range and low end market is MUCH MUCH BIGGER. Losing out on the high end market does not mean that nividia will go bust. you ppl are just naive and think too highly of yrself. ATI perform better so u switch. Losing a few customers does not kill the company. Nividia is still highly competitive with its midrange products and I feel that the gap between the BEST CARDS on both companies are not that much (SUBJECTIVE). It has not reach the stage where ATI doubles the performave of nividia card in every aspect.

[Falcon-K]

nvidia still has more marketshare than ati does but ati is going so i dont think that nvidia is going anywhere.

[Amino]

ATI was trailing nVidia FOREVER, but now look at them. It's not like nVidia can't do the same thing.

I like ATI better, but nVidia is pretty darn good too. It's not like they're losing all their customers or something. I just recommended an nVidia card over an ATI card for a friends new computer. It's all about preference really. Besides, even though this performs better than that, blah blah blah, the games that are played on these cards pretty much play the same.

[Deathknight]

For performance enthusiasts I agree nvidia is looking pretty bad right now but the fact is in this business that marketing, business partners and pure muscle is what sets companies apart and nvidia is a juggernaut in those areas. They would have to continue down this road for some time before things seriously got bad for them.

[madcow235]

the name geforce has more power in the low end market then the name Radeon.

[ClownShoes]

well, at least nvidia didnt PAY madonion for 3dmark03 info, like ATi. if you hadnt noticed, the 5900 ultra is pretty much on par with the 9800, with both cards pulling ahead in some cases and around the same price. dont get your panties up in a bunch, fanboys.

[mtnbikerjerry]

This is dumb guys. It is about performance, and right now the Ati 9800 Pro has it. Accept it and move on, until nVidia comes out with a better GPU that surpasses the performace of the Ati 9800Pro at an equivalent price. There are no sides, unless you want to be on one. Just get the best peformance for the best price. Why spend more just to have bragging rights people???

[OC Noob]

Originally posted by ClownShoes
well, at least nvidia didnt PAY madonion for 3dmark03 info, like ATi. if you hadnt noticed, the 5900 ultra is pretty much on par with the 9800, with both cards pulling ahead in some cases and around the same price. dont get your panties up in a bunch, fanboys.


I wasn't going to comment until I saw this.

You really don't knbow what you are talking about and you shouldn't throw the word fanboy around when you apear to be one yourself.

NVidia paid Madonion/Futuremark before and after the 3DMark03 fiasco. They, in fact, are paying them right now.

[MrMarbles]

Performance has nothing to do with this thread.


Anyway, I agree with those who say that Nvidia still has a fair (actually, unfair) share of the market, especially in low and mid range segments. Its not as dominant as before but its not going away any time soon.

[baqai]

unfortunately there are majority of people who will still go and buy Nvidia because of brand name as far as i am concerned i will pay for the product which is better value for money (don't care if it's nvidia or Ati) and right now ATI has much better product, still you people are right that nvidia still have lots and lots of clientale and i don't see them going "down" because of "few" people who know that their current lineup of cards gives new meaning to word "suck" :D

[Evnas]

Originally posted by ClownShoes
well, at least nvidia didnt PAY madonion for 3dmark03 info, like ATi. if you hadnt noticed, the 5900 ultra is pretty much on par with the 9800, with both cards pulling ahead in some cases and around the same price. dont get your panties up in a bunch, fanboys.

Wow...so mis-informed. nVidia, ATi, as well as many other companies have paid Futuremark for years...not to make the program look better on their cards, but to be part of the developing team of a "standard" benchmarking program. nVidia tried to throw their weight around with Futuremark, tried to make them do things their way (like you believe ATi did)...well, Futuremark said no, so nVidia dropped from the development team by THEMSELVES, they were not kicked from it. They then realize that their cards blow in 3DMark03. Well they hoot, and they hollar, but realize that the people who it matters to, dont believe a word they are saying. They are now back on the development team along with ATi, and more.

[Twigs]

by 'out' I meant regain respect in the gaming community, I know a few mistakes, albeit large mistakes, isnt going to put them out of business

[TUK101]

I think that this is all really funny some of the comments that I have just read through this thread. I remember about 1-1.5 years ago I was reading the same exact thread except it was people commenting on how bad that ATI sucked with thier recent release of the Radeon 8500 when compared to the TI4200-4600 lineup. Man where the Nvidiots ranting and raving about how ATI is going to go down the toilet and that Nvidia was going to stay on top for FOREVER. I am not a fanboy of either card, my last card was a Radeon 8500, my current card is a TI4200 and I have a Radeon 9500 (L shaped memory) coming. I go for best bang for the buck and could care less who's name is on it. Although I do have to say that up until the past year Nvidia had the best drivers and ATI has had and still does IMHO better looking graphics. But that is just a matter of opinion. Also, I seriously doubt that Nvidia is going to go down the tubes anytime soon. What they are loosing in high end graphics card sales they are making up for in mobo chipset sales. :eek: ;) :p

[Deathknight]

Originally posted by ClownShoes
well, at least nvidia didnt PAY madonion for 3dmark03 info, like ATi. if you hadnt noticed, the 5900 ultra is pretty much on par with the 9800, with both cards pulling ahead in some cases and around the same price. dont get your panties up in a bunch, fanboys.

Umm yeah thats how madonion is in business. Nvidia pays em, ati pays em, anyone thats wants to be part of the program pays em.

As far as even performance I don't think thats entirely accruate. sometiems they are but look at the upcoming HL2 benchies. Nvidia is hurting big time there...

[Damian]

Not really... the nforce2 has only a very tiny market share. Only a minority of people buy AMD mobos, and only a tiny minority of those want insane FSBs.

That might change a bit with the nforce3 and the upcoming Athlon 64s.

[ashenfang]

I seriously doubt that Nvidia is going to go down the tubes anytime soon. What they are loosing in high end graphics card sales they are making up for in mobo chipset sales.

I completely agree with that. I just think its stupid to sit around a keep bashing nvidia or ATI. I think alot of us forget, or don't even realize the difficulty in successfully making a new graphics card, marketing it, and competing with another company at the same time. Im also sure that most of us here don't even have a clue on how to make/develope a video card, i know I don't.

So what if Nvidia made some mistakes, or ATI, it doesn't really matter. Business is business between large companies. They are going to do what they feel will boost their sales, whether or not it immoral.

I like both ATI and Nvidia. They both have thier strong and their weak points. Frankly, I hope they both stick around for a long time so we always have a choice in products/features. Just wouldn't be right for someone to hold a monopoly in the video card industry.

[CrashOveride]

Originally posted by MrMarbles
Performance has nothing to do with this thread.


Anyway, I agree with those who say that Nvidia still has a fair (actually, unfair) share of the market, especially in low and mid range segments. Its not as dominant as before but its not going away any time soon.

yes it does, it was the basis of one of the so called strikes.

[snyper1982]

Originally posted by ClownShoes
well, at least nvidia didnt PAY madonion for 3dmark03 info, like ATi. if you hadnt noticed, the 5900 ultra is pretty much on par with the 9800, with both cards pulling ahead in some cases and around the same price. dont get your panties up in a bunch, fanboys.

all i can do is shake my head in disapointment. you my friend are either the most misinformed person on this thread, or you are the biggest troll, take your pick. and last i heard the 9800 is faster in the next gen games and it is cheaper to boot. :rolleyes:

[NcBaller1985]

Graphics card compaines will be in a never ending battle for the top forever. One year one company will be on top, the next year a different company. With all the new technology that keeps coming out it is hard for one company to stay on top for too long. This is a good thing for us though, as they keep spitting out awsome cards that keep getting better and better...although the prices do the same.

[funnyperson1]

its a shame you cant ban people for being ignorant fanboys....

[dansonang]

Why dun ppl say ATi would surely be outof the race when nividia's cards were ONCE top of the line. All these " I am Top today, U r top tomorrow , I am tOp again the day after" happens all the time

[funnyperson1]

Originally posted by dansonang
Why dun ppl say ATi would surely be outof the race when nividia's cards were ONCE top of the line. All these " I am Top today, U r top tomorrow , I am tOp again the day after" happens all the time

There were people who said that Ati would die because Nvidia was always one step ahead and their drivers sucked. Ati shut them up ;).

[cruc1fy]

They may have a strike with the GeForce FX, but they have a home run with the Quadro FX. I realize that professional graphics cards are a small sliver of the market, but so are the high-end level consumer cards.

nVidia is doing just fine:

http://ichart.yahoo.com/t?s=NVDA

[I.M.O.G.]

Instead of threads like these every once in a while, it would be interesting to see someone write an article/thread about the target markets and relative success that Nvidia and Ati have their hands in. Like a real analysis of how they are relatively doing with different product lines.

[HotKoala]

Other than the enthusiast part of it, here are a few facts to think over.

nVidia has still shipped more DX9 card than ATi.
nVidia in their worst situation and ATi in their best for a long time, nVidia is still pulling a profit, whereas ATi hasn't.

ATi stood up and took on nVidia and became successful. There was no way they could compete with Intel. Yeah, a few bumps here and there but they eventually put out an unquestionably good product. However, given how fast enthusiasts forget and live "at the moment" nVidia is not in any trouble.

Remember The Rage Fury MAXx? Yeah who cares? It was by far the biggest flop between nV and ATi. Didn't even get out Win2k drivers as promised. How many even care about that now?

I think they're enjoying each other's competition. Those that I've spoken with, anyways.

[GeckoBanzai]

ATI and Nvidia covet the high end market because it helps sell low and middle priced cards. Benchmarks are king only for a few but lots of people sit up and take notice of who has the "best" scores.

It's been a great year and a half with my 64mb 4200 but now I'm gearing up for HL2 and am probably (after more research) going to go with the 9600 pro and oc it. The dx9 support and positive reviews against other cards in its price range will sell me but most people will go with name recognition and the advice of others. Who has the best word of mouth, ATI or Nvidia? My personal experience last year it was all Gforce 4s and this year its the Radeons. Next year it could flip flop again. I just hope my next card will still be playing the current games. That's what drives my purchases.

Nvidia will still be a player I am sure and I will be comparing their products against the competition.

[ashenfang]

It's been a great year and a half with my 64mb 4200 but now I'm gearing up for HL2 and am probably (after more research) going to go with the 9600 pro and oc it

I had strongly considered the same option. However, I can't justify spending the extra cash on a comparable video card that just supports DX9. I think I am going to wait until Xmas time and spend the money on of either ATI's or Nvidia's new core's. I just don't think upgrading right now is very wise.

[emericanchaos]

what do you mean by nvidia is out? try going to walmart circuit city best buys fry's or any other similar store and ask where the computer graphics cards are. guarnateed you'll find a mountain of FX5200's and 5600's. with that kind of support *ahem walmart* you can't say that any company is really in jeopardy unless you beleive walmart is powerufl enough to crush nvidia by making them sell to walmart extremely low. considering the strength of ecommerce especially amongst people like us i don't think there's an issue.

not only that but nvidia is cleaning house with the AMD desktop chipset market and are also competitive in the workstation segment.

nvidia isn't going down because they're not appeasing the top 3% of their consumers. plus they've had years of success over ATI with a few companies going belly up during their reign. they're fat and they can afford to lose some weight while ATI catches up a bit.

it's far from over boys so sit back and keep on shopping ;)

[dropadrop]

Let's see what happens with athlon64 / opteron chipsets. Preliminary benchmarks show the via chipset to be significantly faster in both single and dual processor chipsets. I heard that abit (for example) is releasing their via chipset based motherboard first and nvidia based one "later".

[saulin]

My card is out?

Hell not. HL2 is not the only game to play. besides with my overclock I'm sure I can enjoy HL2 with descent FPS.

Is funny when people say that the 9600 pro beats the FX 5900U just because it outperforms it in HL2. hahaha

Get real!

[OC Noob]

Originally posted by saulin
My card is out?

Hell not. HL2 is not the only game to play. besides with my overclock I'm sure I can enjoy HL2 with descent FPS.

Is funny when people say that the 9600 pro beats the FX 5900U just because it outperforms it in HL2. hahaha

Get real!


Well, its not just HL2, but we'll see how things look when the dust clears.

Anyway, I think the strikes against NV are all the lies and BS they've put out to misrepresent their products to consumers. Its one thing to make a product that isn't the best on the market, its another thing to go to great lengths to lie, cheat and pull all sorts of bull**** in a feeble attempt to cover up performance problems. I'm not saying advertise the problems, but what they did to 3dmark and all the cheats cross the line. How many hardware companies have gone to such lengths to cover up performance problems?

I won't even go into how their poor hardware design has hurt the gaming industry. That i can forgive. I don't think they intentionally made a poor product. And weak performance would be a lot easier to swallow if they would just stop shovling all the BS in our mouths. I'd be a lot more likely to buy their cards if they would just focus on the strong points instead of focusing on covering up the weak points.


One other thing.

High end for show, low end for dough. Its true, but reputations are built and maintained with high end products. As a former uninformed buyer I used to ask the clerk at BB or where ever, what was better the Radeon or the Nvidia card.

Me: "What is faster Radeon or Geforce?"

Clerk: "The GeForce is."

Then I run over and buy the crappy MX card (when the GF line was king of course).

For the most part these guys don't know what they are talking about and they aren't going to get into a big price vs performance discusion or even a discusion about the different tiers of cards like we have in these forums.

The "king of the hill" title carries a lot of weight.

And the top of the line card ALWAYS gets a way more press then the middle-low end cards.

The low end is definitly where its at for making money, but I also think the high end dictates how well the low end sells well into the future.

When a low end card dies it just dies, when a high end card dies its reputation lives on. Hell, tons of people still think NV is king because of the reputation built from killer high end GF1-4 cards a year later. Well...that and all the BS lying and cheating.

[shadowdr]

My brother in law,an attorney in southern California went to camp a few years with a bunch of guys in his neighboorhood when they were young.They still hang out once in awhile.One of these guys was a computer geek who owned a struggling company that was into graphics cards.A few years ago he sold his company and was made an executive by that same firm.He now lives in the hollywood hills in a multi million dollar mansion.
It may not be who is ahead now that counts and probably not n-vdia or A.T.I. that has the next big breakthrough but which one aquires the company that does.You can only credit the company that produces the next wave of graphics cards of doing just that,producing them.

[Cowboy X]

People are saying Nvidia won't go down like that etc . But I was there when 3dfx fell from the sky , people were much more fervent and adamant over 3dfx than they are with NVidia .

However Nvidia has deeper pockets and more segmented vcard ranges , OEM channels , mobile parts and of course motherboard chipsets . So they are indeed in a stronger position than 3dfx was went they went under .

But as I said when the 9700 Pro came out and also later when it was obvious that the NV30 was rubbish , it is all about how Nvidia handles being anything less than number 1 . ATI has shown that they can handle being even less than third in the performance 3d marketplace ; 3dfx couldn't . My question then was whether NV could restructure and readjust , and how they would do that or would they continue to spend and be in denial like 3dfx was . But now we have seen their answer , lie , cheat , coverup and bribe until they have a new part . This strategy has lost them customers and support but I admit that as bad as it is , it in my opinion has lessened the potential marketshare loss which NV could/should have suffered .

The problem is that we are now a year down the road and :

1/ The better product hasn't surfaced .

2/ Many of the cheats have been discovered or blocked .

3/ People no longer trust NV's drivers even if they can't find a cheat because they just 'know' there is one there . And sadly they have been proven right most of the time .

4/ NV fansites no longer buy their PR statements and in fact now actively support ATI products and bash NVidia's vcards !

5/ The evidence of cheats and poor performance has become too great for sites to continue to look the other way as NV would like them to . The recent statements by the bigger sites and the DirectX9 benchmarks are adding nails to their coffin . There is now no significant hardware site to wave the NV flag or paint them in a positive light .

6/ Games with the NV logo perform better on ATI hardware , significantly so too .

7/ Advanced games are showing NV hardware to be less than capable and to be an unwise purchase .

8/ S3 and XGI promise to release new cards before the end of the year . These will impact greatly on the lowend DX9 market where NV is currently making its $$$ . Furthermore if they do well they may remove NV from having the 2'nd best performing DirectX9 hardware .

9/ Several OEM companies have ceased their exclusive arrangement with NV or dropped them all together . In fact NV OEMs are finding it very difficult to make good margins .

10/ NV continues to have chip manufacturing problems .

12/ NV has lost the Xbox contract .

13/ Nv is losing further mobile vcard marketshare .

14/ In many cases even using cheats , 'special' low quality driver paths and their proprietary language CG , FX cards still lose by a mile in shader intensive titles .

15/ Things are so bad that game developers are now willing to speak out against NV's products and practices .

With all that is going on Nvidia is indeed digging a hole and making enemies . Enemies who may never buy or recommend an NV card again or at least for a very long time , even if NV comes up with a better vcard later on .

In my opinion , without proper restructuring , a change of focus , a pricing and marketing change and non-cheating drivers with good quality , NV will be in some serious trouble . They can't lie to their investors for much longer ,trying to fool them that they have the best product lineup :rolleyes: .

If the NV400 line fails compared to the ATI R400/420 series than that is an extinction level event for NV in the high performance graphics market ! This may happen even if they fix all the things I mentioned above . And finally there is the not to be trifled with task of regaining trust and fanbase .

[snyper1982]

Originally posted by saulin
My card is out?

Hell not. HL2 is not the only game to play. besides with my overclock I'm sure I can enjoy HL2 with descent FPS.

Is funny when people say that the 9600 pro beats the FX 5900U just because it outperforms it in HL2. hahaha

Get real!

i honestley cant see how you could possibly laugh over a card that costs less than half as much outperforming it in ANYTHING. If i payed 500+ for a video card i could handle a competing video card(9800) being able to beat it, but not a card that is not even meant to compete with it. i dont see any future games performing much better once shaders beome more complex and more common, you are just going to see more of the same. but i would definately not be laughing.

[Cowboy X]

Actually those who are willing to read some technical stuff , this link shows that ATI has extra shader units which currently aren't even being properly used by the drivers in DX9 !!!! Acording to ATI staffers as soon as the drivers can do it , we may well see another significant performance increase in shader performance and thus a widening in the DX9 performance gap between themselves and Nvidia .

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8005&start=0 (start )

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8005&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20 ( on this page the ATI guy admits that this is possibly only the tip of the iceberg . )

[saulin]

Well like I said when I bought the card it nailed the 9800 pro in the current games.

So yeah the FX is an awesome performer on DX8 games. And yeah ATI sure has the lead in DX9 games. However it won't be too long before the new cards come out plus there seems to be another company that is said to bring another monster to the scene.

I guess we will have to wait and see how Nvidias NV40? performs.

I just laughed when someone says a 9600 Pro beats my card. I mean I had to. It may beat it in some DX9 stuff but loses in pretty much everything else by miles.

oh yeah about price... Yes the 9600 Pro is much cheaper but the 9800 pro is not.

The 9800 Pro 256MB is not cheaper than the FX 5900U.

Oh and don't tell me games won't use that much VRAM cause is like saying windows doesn't need 1Gig of RAM cause it won't use it.

[Cowboy X]

Which current games exactly does the FX win ??

[saulin]

UT 2K3 and Q3 off the top of my head.

I know because I had someone on this forums benchmarked UT 2K3 and his card was much farther overclocked compared to my FX 5900U.

He had a Radeon 9800 Pro at 467 core with water cooling.

That is just about 20% overclock

Mine was like 14% overclock

And he had 200Mhz more on his CPU than me. Not onlhy that but higher FSB.

The benchmarks were different by 6-11fps and I actually won in some map.


However benching on my brother's 9800 pro at 444Mhz core and 390Mhz memory which is the highest I could go with the same cooling I'm using for my FX.

The 9800 Pro is not match.


But there are others games too. I think one of them is Serious Sam 2.


why did you actually think the 9800 Pro beats the FX 5900U in every game?


Like I said when I bought my card I compared prices and the 9800 Pro 256MB was like $25 more expensive and it got beat on most benchmarks.

Of course now is hard to believe what any review site says.

For example I have seen reviews where the FX wins at both 3DMark 2001 and 03 and I have seen others where the 9800 Pro wins.

For me the Radeon won in 3DMark 2001 by 300 marks and it lost in 3DMark 03 by 400 marks and teher is makes more of a difference.

[DDR-PIII]

Originally posted by saulin
The 9800 Pro 256MB is not cheaper than the FX 5900U.

Up here the 9800 Pro 256MB ischeaper than the FX 5900U.

[Aeon Flux]

Nvidia has screwed up a lot lately. But to people like me they are a great entity to the poverty level computer enthusiast. I can go down to my local store(cyber warehouse, about the only worthwhile computer store around here that actually sells things and doesnt constantly offer to order because they never have it) and pick up a new geforceFX card for 60 dollars as suopposed to a radeon 9000 for 100 dollars. That 40 dollars means a lot to me.

[saulin]

Oh yeah here is a review of a 5900U the eVGA which is probably the best one to get and not the most expensive. Is actually one of the cheaper ones.

http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/evga_e-geforce_fx_5900_ultra_review/default.asp

It sure beats the 9800 pro is most benchmarks.

So really the FX is not total crap like some say. It does perform poorly in DX9 games compared to the 9800 Pro but those games are not even out yet. And like I said both companies will have new cards on the market pretty soon.

acording to www.pricewatch.com

RADEON 9800 Pro 256MB is $419
GeForce FX 5900 ULTRA 256MB is $377

That is a big difference.

[Evnas]

Originally posted by Aeon Flux
Nvidia has screwed up a lot lately. But to people like me they are a great entity to the poverty level computer enthusiast. I can go down to my local store(cyber warehouse, about the only worthwhile computer store around here that actually sells things and doesnt constantly offer to order because they never have it) and pick up a new geforceFX card for 60 dollars as suopposed to a radeon 9000 for 100 dollars. That 40 dollars means a lot to me.

You get what you pay for, simply put. The $40 difference is because the GFFX 5200 will last maybe another 6 months, then you will be playing DX 9 games at 640x480 to get 20fps, where as the 9000 will be able to get 30fps at 1024x768 with the same graphic settings.

Aeon Flux was one hell of a show btw :)

[Aeon Flux]

Lol, Aeon Flux was one hell of a show. I miss it.

Anyway being able to buy that cheaper card for me and with some extra tweaking it can run purty. Right now Im used to dealing with an old geforce 2 and am still able to keep up modestly with everyone to play games online. Trust me and try it in my situation. It always works out.

[RangerJoe]

i think all of you are thinking way too much about this. the largest graphics card manufacturer (or at least one of them) is not going to go out of business because of one line of cards. simply put. everyone has bad streaks. that is part of running a company, and putting out a product, not every single one is going to kick everyone elses' ass.

nvidia isnt going out of business, ATI isnt going out of business. end of story.

people were saying AMD was going to go under before the tbred B's came out. they saw the 2200 tbred A, and said, "AMD IS DEAD, AMD IS DEAD."

Think farther ahead. one product isnt going to send a large computer hardware manufacturer out of business.

[Cowboy X]

saulin ............. unfortunately , you have been fooled . The FX card cheats in 3dmark 2001 , 3dmark 2003 , UT2003 and Quake 3 .

Secondly what firingsquad didn't tell you about the EVGA card is that EVGA has had to release a downclocked bios since hardly anyone can get it to run at the ennhanced settings !!! Furthermore the downclocked bios as seen in a 5900U roundup then proves to overclock more poorly than any other 5900ultra ! Making the EVGA ultra a waste of $$$ .

[saulin]

Ok what do you use a 9700 pro?

How about you show me some shots of DM-Inferno in UT 2003 and at 1024x768 32-bit color and 4X FSAA and 8X AF?

Then we'll see how the cheats make UT look like crap for me.

Cuase you can call it a cheat but I'm using StarStorm Detonators 45.23 quality. And the shots look pretty damn sweet to me.

Now Dm-inferno cause that is a killer level where I get ****ty fps.

To bad I can't attach images but I just posted some images on this thread here.

http://www.ngemu.com/forums/showthread.php?p=606002#post606002

also about the eVGA FX card. I have seen that clocked higher than any other.

like 525 Core on default cooling. I'm sure it is stable at 500Mhz core.

Now 3Dmark 2001 well is not a reliable benchie really... I lost 900 3Dmarks using the 3rd party drivers I'm using and I'm only lost 1-2 fps in UT 2003.

Oh yeah if you check out the shots they look kinna blury thanks to the Jpeg compression. In fact the whole image has been degraded.

However it still looks pretty sweet if you ask me.

[RangerJoe]

Alright guys, who cares, you have the better card, he has the better card. Settle this over PM's.

We have previously settled that hardware makers pay software people to have programs run better...thats easy. Dell gives microsoft computers to make sure everything runs 100% before they start developing a new line of comps. It is like this in ever aspect of manufacturing. Test products are given out so that in the end, the CONSUMER can have a better experience.

I think the debate, of the companies we support for the use in our PCs, should pretty much be dropped altogether. Like I said in my earlier post, Nvidia is not going under anytime soon. The only way ATI or Nvidia is going to go out of business, is if there is a new graphics card maker that comes into power. But until that point. There is nothing to debate about, other than who has the better card, not who is going bankrupt. So, if you are going to debate about something, do it about which card is better, and why you like that card. But mind you, debates are not based on opinions. I like nvidia, I am very happy with my Ti4200, it performs to my expectations and beyond. So this card is good for me. I am fully aware that ATI now makes a better card than Nvidia. Good for them. They were always the underdogs and now they are on top. I mean, afterall, how interesting would it be if Nvidia ALWAYS had the better card, or ATI ALWAYS had a better card. That would make things HORRIBLE for consumers. Prices would skyrocket, and customer support would go down the hole.

The End.

[Mr.Guvernment]

^^^^ good points m8.


as u i have ati4200 - does what i want on that system - i also have 9700PRO - that does what i need it to on that other system

:D

[Evnas]

Originally posted by RangerJoe
people were saying AMD was going to go under before the tbred B's came out. they saw the 2200 tbred A, and said, "AMD IS DEAD, AMD IS DEAD."

Off topic here, but if AMD keeps going how they are going, they are dead...they havent pulled a profit in years ;)

Anyways....

[snyper1982]

Originally posted by saulin
Well like I said when I bought the card it nailed the 9800 pro in the current games.

So yeah the FX is an awesome performer on DX8 games. And yeah ATI sure has the lead in DX9 games. However it won't be too long before the new cards come out plus there seems to be another company that is said to bring another monster to the scene.

I guess we will have to wait and see how Nvidias NV40? performs.

I just laughed when someone says a 9600 Pro beats my card. I mean I had to. It may beat it in some DX9 stuff but loses in pretty much everything else by miles.

oh yeah about price... Yes the 9600 Pro is much cheaper but the 9800 pro is not.

The 9800 Pro 256MB is not cheaper than the FX 5900U.

Oh and don't tell me games won't use that much VRAM cause is like saying windows doesn't need 1Gig of RAM cause it won't use it.

i think you are missing my point, the 9600 should not beat the 5900U in ANYTHING. the 5900U should be on par with the 9800. im not trying to debate which card is faster in todays games, im looking at games coming out in the next couple of months. and about vcards not using that much ram, they way things look right now for the nv cards, by the time games come out that do use 256meg vram, they will be FAR underpowered to run them. im not a fan boy of either i am just calling it like i see it. from what i have seen so far, it would be a hard pill to swallow if i were an fx owner.

[saulin]

Well I never did say the FX out performs the Radeon 9800 Pro in DX9 games or did I?

It is a well known fact by now.

And the fact that a 9600 pro beats it in DX9 is bacuse it is built to handle DX9 better than the FX cards.

However that doesn't mean it will out perform a 5900U in everything. In fact it will be left behind like nothing in most games right now.

Oh yeah about vram.

Do you know why you don't easy run out of memory in windows?

Because windows uses like 1GB or more of virtual RAM. Even if you have 1GB of RAM if you disable virtual RAM you are likely to run out of memory no questions asked.

Same for games. Games don't load just in video RAM. However the more RAM the faster the loading times. And Ram also seems to help some games when using FSAA.

You will see how a Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB for example can be on par with the FX 5900U in some games but when the resolution gets higher and the level of FSAA is higher it starts to fall behind. The RAM sure helps this type of games there.

[I.M.O.G.]

Saulin, are you sure on all that information? I don't think it holds water, but perhaps you understand this better.

What version of windows are you referencing? Windows 98 doesn't manage it's memory real well and that's why it needs reboots every once in a while to get things back to speed - it doesn't always free up resources that are no longer being used. Windows 2000 and XP can pretty much be run for however long you want without a reboot because they are much more responsible with keeping things tidy and freeing up resources that are no longer used.

I was under the impression that it is the in-game textures that are stored in the video ram take up the majority of the space... so I understand that you are saying an increase in resolution and FSAA causes a RAM shortage and that is why performance drops? More RAM would make this better?

I thought the resolution increase along with FSAA made more processor work, and that is why FPS decreased. Are you saying this is wrong?

*Goes to find Hip-waders...

BTW: Your last sentence has an indefinite pronoun reference. The word "it" is used in reference to either the ATI noun or the Nvidia noun, but given the sentence structure it is impossible to determine.

[saulin]

From what I read in some reviews is that the memory is what helps the FX 5900U in some cases...

Of course it is a big performance hit on the CPU too.


Now Windows will run out of memory without virtual RAM. I know so. I have run out of memory.

For example: I use a ROM manager for my emulators. Verifying 1000s of MB of Roms will waste your RAM. Using Newsbin a binary news reader can waste your RAM big time too. The spool file can be 100s of megs and when you read and write to it a lot it uses a lot of RAM.

I have run out of RAM before in Windows 98 SE and Windows XP. Virtual RAM is really a must even if you have lots of RAM. Well maybe for 2GB of RAM then perhaps you could get away without it.

Oh yeah by "it" I meant the Radeon.

Oh and here is a quote of what a review site said about the extra 128MB on the Radeon 9800 Pro 256MB version.

The ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 256-MB is a tough product to categorize. Its performance is unquestionably high-end, but the actual benefit of the extra 128-MB of memory and presence of DDR-II is nominal, at least using current games. It's only when higher AF and AA settings are introduced that the Radeon 9800 Pro 256-MB starts to break away, and its ability to handle tomorrow's more demanding games is a definite consideration.

[Falcon-K]

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1821&p=23

from this review of the nvidia 5900 ultra, on doom III, 1600x1200, 4x AA/8x Aniso the 9800 pro 128 did 20 fps where as the 9800 pro 256 version did 19 fps...so i dont see how the card pulls away when running high res with AA and Aniso on...

[Cowboy X]

Saulin ........... here's the point , Nvidia has been proven to be using decreased IQ among other things in UT2003 . Some people may notice , others won't . I thought my GF3 looked very good til I got my 9700 Pro for example . The other thing is , there is nothing at all wrong with with the 'optimisations' Nvidia institutes if you or I can set them in the driver ( performance mode etc ) . Because some people as I said won't see a difference , some people will just want the extra FPS , and some people may need stuff like that because their rig is not fast enough .

The problem is that there is no choice in the matter . In fact in the DET 50 drivers , guys over at Beyond3d are starting to realise that the decreased quality in AF is now no longer confined to UT2003 but is now in every D3D game ! If I spend so much $$ on a vcard I would really like to play a game as it was meant to be played and as I feel like playing it with beautiful graphics . Not the way someone else thinks I should .

If you are satisfied with your purchase then good for you , I hope you enjoy it fully , I just came to dispel the hype . If you want I can find a link for just about everything I have mentioned , it would be time consuming but I have done it before .

Here at least are the EVGA links :
http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=210452&highlight=EVGA
http://evga.com/community/messageboard/topic.asp?whichpage=1&Forum_Title=GeForce+FX+Family+Forum&Topic_Title=5900+Ultra+issues&CAT_ID=1&FORUM_ID=17&TOPIC_ID=1090
http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=3x5900u&page=3

[snyper1982]

Originally posted by saulin
Well I never did say the FX out performs the Radeon 9800 Pro in DX9 games or did I?

It is a well known fact by now.

And the fact that a 9600 pro beats it in DX9 is bacuse it is built to handle DX9 better than the FX cards.

However that doesn't mean it will out perform a 5900U in everything. In fact it will be left behind like nothing in most games right now.

Oh yeah about vram.

Do you know why you don't easy run out of memory in windows?

Because windows uses like 1GB or more of virtual RAM. Even if you have 1GB of RAM if you disable virtual RAM you are likely to run out of memory no questions asked.

Same for games. Games don't load just in video RAM. However the more RAM the faster the loading times. And Ram also seems to help some games when using FSAA.

You will see how a Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB for example can be on par with the FX 5900U in some games but when the resolution gets higher and the level of FSAA is higher it starts to fall behind. The RAM sure helps this type of games there.

its not whether the games will get a benefit from the ram or not, the point is that its not feasible for the cards to have the extra 128 of ram on it, because by the time you get to a resolution, or have enough aa/af for there to be an increase in performance, the framerate is already at unplayable level, the graphics core just cant keep up. thats what people mean when they say that 256 is useless right now. sure at 1600x1200, 256 *might* get a performance increase, but the game will still be unplayable. and i wasnt comparing the the 5900u to the 9800, i was comparing it to the 9600, i said that the 5900u SHOULD be on par with the 9800. and that the 5900u SHOULD be able to beat the 9600 in ANYTHING, especialy new games. if i payed 500+ for a vid card, and it was getting beaten by a 150 vid card, i would be mad as a wet hen. i understand the fact that the 5900u outperforms the 9600 in current games, but are you going to ONLY play those games? or are you going to want to play the new games that come out as well? thats the point i am trying to get at. im not bashing you or your card, the 5900u is great at playing todays games, but i know if i had the choice between a 9800 and a 5900, i would be buying a 9800 with no hesitation whatsoever.

[CrystalMethod]

What I want to see are some 3D Studio, Maya, Bryce, XSI benchs... Funny no one benches those on a regular basis.

[saulin]

snyper1982 agreed... Not all games would benefit from the extra RAM right now.

However Nvidia only made a 256MB version keep that in mind. and most likely just to make estra $$$. ATI also did the same thing. However with ATI you have the choice to go with 128MB if you want.


Cowboy X I already had debated the IQ thing. And basically people just should stick to the older drivers or the ones that do not affect IQ so that you can notice. For Example Dets 44.03

We did an image comparison in UT 2K3 with a fellow on a Radeon 9800 pro.

Well they look so damn close. If there is a difference then it probably is 1-2% that you don't notice it while gaming.

Of course ATI still has the lead in FSAA but the textures sure look the same to me.

CrystalMethod good point there. Most likely there is where the extra RAM helps a lot.

[dropadrop]

Originally posted by CrystalMethod
What I want to see are some 3D Studio, Maya, Bryce, XSI benchs... Funny no one benches those on a regular basis.

Probably the same reason nobody really goes into 2d image quality when reviewing videocards these days. :rolleyes:

[OC Noob]

Originally posted by CrystalMethod
What I want to see are some 3D Studio, Maya, Bryce, XSI benchs... Funny no one benches those on a regular basis.


Its probably because most people who run those programs buy a workstation card and not a 3d gaming card.

If the market was there someone would be doing it and the companies would be marketing it.

[emericanchaos]

i know alot of hobbyists that run those apps but still want to be able to game. running those benches would be a good idea. plus those apps are more GPU intensive then CPU intensive

[Janissary]

Originally posted by IMOG
Instead of threads like these every once in a while, it would be interesting to see someone write an article/thread about the target markets and relative success that Nvidia and Ati have their hands in. Like a real analysis of how they are relatively doing with different product lines.

Some figures of the vidcard sales of the biggest on-line shop of my country.

The sales (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/400291/sales.jpg) pretty much say it all for themselves, first figure presents sales of complete vidcard product line and the second one is the top selling nvidia products of their most selling brand. Although the hole product line was present it seems that ATI does unfortunately not exist very much in countries outside the US, and nVidia is pretty sure not going to be out of the market for a long time.
It is also interesting to see that Joe sixpack does actually not care what we enthusiasts think about the FX's, nVidia seems to sell them very well. :rolleyes: