Look what I found! (a radiator)

[squeakygeek]

I was driving home from school, and I spotted this on the curb with some garbage! Needless to say, I slammed on the brakes and picked it up! It's an "A coil" radiator from a central air unit. The "A" is open on the bottom, where the fan was, but I'm going to close it off and put a 120mm fan on each end, blowing in. There is an 18 inch ruler for scale. Any comments or suggestions? I'm going to use this in my first water cooling setup. The pics:

http://www.squeakygeek.com/stuff/forums/radiator1.jpg
http://www.squeakygeek.com/stuff/forums/radiator2.jpg

Does anyone know how to pull the inserted bend out of the end of the straight run? I'm not going to bother taking a closeup of it or explain it further, because whoever has done it before would know what I'm talking about. I need to do some modding or "re-plumbing", if you will.

[Biznatch]

You are going to need something like a 1/2 HP pump to be able to use that and keep a decent flow rate throughout the system. It will probably get you closer to ambient temp then anyone elses without cooling the water though :P It would have been overkill if you bought it but can't argue with free :) First make sure it doesn't leak all over though.

[squeakygeek]

My pump is more powerfull than most, as it has a 14' head. I plan to "re-plumb" it a bit to make some more parralell runs (it already has four) to decrease impedence. See my edit right after the pics about that.

[IdreamofDSl]

Thats an evaporator unit, it was more than likely replaced because it was leaking gas. If you decide to use it, cap one side and fill with at least 50psi compressed air.Then spray every braize/solder joint and tube with soapy water to check for leaks.

It will also need some heavy modding to make it work. You need to make a manifold for the inlet (high pressure side) similar to the return manifold (four tubes into one large tube) to replace the capilary tubes (the tube thats so small it looks like a wire). Other wise you will have problems pushing any water thru the radiator.

From the pics it looks like there is one capilary tube per side on the bottom inner core and there is a 90 degree crossover braized to one of the 180 degree copper elbows above that.
That means you will have to cut that 180 degree elbow off to leave you with two open tubes on each side. The bottom two rows of coil will be disconnected because the way it is plumbed, the tubing branches from one to two lines killing your flow rate. (This is correct for refrigeration but not for flowing water).

You can then solder or install compression fittings on those four tubes and effectively have four radiators in one. Here is a diagram, cut the 180 degree elbo off at Mr. water coolings eyes, The 90 degree tee mentioned obove is in his nose and the capilary tube is in his mouth. The blue arrows show flow paths thru each core. This goes for the same on both sides. Sorry, It just looked like a face when I was done. LOL!

http://members.fortunecity.com/dnice/radiator1.5.jpg

Sorry if I repeated some things said already, was typing the same time you were.

If you replumb it so you have four flow paths you can tee one 1/2" line from the pump into two1/2" lines, then again tee the 1/2" lines into 3/8" lines or whatever the tubing size is. Do the same for the return or just use the existing manifold.

Its overkill, but free is free.

[ToolBox]

WoW, I bet it was used for Phase-Change. It looks very, very good for watercooling. Only problems, how would you cool it?

[IdreamofDSl]

Phase change is the same thing as air conditioning/refrigeration. Just a different application. So yes it was.

[Dozier]

nice find man, you should mount a 1ft fan on that sucker to give it alot of air flow, bet you could keep a comp nice and cool with that

[Surreal]

thats killer man!

[squeakygeek]

IdreamofDSl: You're whole entry - that's exactly what I was going to do :) As for being thrown away due to leakage, possibly, but if they changed units, this coil would have to be thrown away because it would contaminate the new system. By the way, I took a hand grinder + wire wheel thingy to the whole thing, and it cleaned up REAL nice! I got rid of all that rust, and even made most of the copper tubing real shiny. I might post new pics tomorrow.

One more thing: Do you guys think 4 runs in parallel will be enough to keep the impedence low, or should i go for more, maybe 8?

[IdreamofDSl]

Whats the tubing size? If its 3/8" than four is plenty. Besides how would you make eight runs without splitting each core into two sections?

[squeakygeek]

I decided to go ahead with the updated picture.

Before:

http://www.squeakygeek.com/stuff/forums/radiator1.jpg

After:

http://www.squeakygeek.com/stuff/forums/radiator3.jpg

Notice a difference? :)

[squeakygeek]

Originally posted by IdreamofDSl
Whats the tubing size? If its 3/8" than four is plenty.

It's 1/4".

[quote] Besides how would you make eight runs without splitting each core into two sections?[/b]

What would be wrong with that?

[squeakygeek]

Fan concept:

http://www.squeakygeek.com/stuff/forums/radiator4.jpg

This concept uses two fans, one on each end, each blowing in.

Enermax 120x25mm Variable Speed High Performance System Cooling Fan (http://www.svc.com/en12vasphipe1.html)

Please click the link for the fan and give me your opinions.

[IdreamofDSl]

Whats the point. You will need to hack off two more 180 degree elbows on each side and do double the plumbing.

Look at it this way, if you have a decent 350gph pump and have 1/2" tubing, you then need to divide that 1/2" into four 1/4" tubes. Your already dropping your pressure way down by basically feeding a 1" radiator with 1/2" line. If you do the same thing times 8 you have a 2" radiator. At the most its a potential leak.

[IdreamofDSl]

What does the underside of this thing look like? Is it an open V? If so you want the fans blowing in between the cores paralell with the fins so the air flows over them lengthwise and also flows thru them. If you push air over them perpendicular it won't really do much unless it is ducted to flow thru the fins.

[unix_foo]

I was going to say what a junk you picked up until you posted the "After" picture. Wow you did an awesome job!:D

[squeakygeek]

You will need to hack off two more 180 degree elbows on each side and do double the plumbing.

You say that like it would be hard to do...

by basically feeding a 1" radiator with 1/2" line

You're doing the math wrong. You need to look at the area of a cross section. Even still, if the area was = to 1/2", it would still impede more than 1/2" because more of the water is being slowed down by touching the sides of the pipe.

At the most its a potential leak

how do you figure?

If you push air over them perpendicular it won't really do much unless it is ducted to flow thru the fins.

actually, this design could be effective because the airflow would be pretty even throughout all of the fins. It would work because of static pressure. I will consider you're idea, though. Maybe I will put the fans underneath, blowing up, like it was designed for.

I hope you guys don't think I'm being negative, I don't want to discourage any suggestions!

One other thing: That tray is made to collect condensation, and go through that pipe coming out of it... so basically, if it leaks, no big deal, just tube the tray outlet into my reservior ;)

Wow you did an awesome job!

Thanks!

[IdreamofDSl]

I actuall did not do any proper math but general rule of thumb is a single line, for example .5" will flow equal to a pair of .25" lines plus .1/3 or .33". So figure in some variables and unknows like fritional loss thru the tubing etc.. the four 1/4" tubes at max will flow equal to a tube with the inner dia of .83". So thats why I think you have a better match sticking with the 4 core setup.

Basically what I am saying is that the two 1/4" lines will flow a third less than a single half inch so a total of four will be a closer match than eight.

[squeakygeek]

I don't see why you're looking for the closest match to 1/2". Regardless of what size tubing I use, more runs will make my radiator impede flow less, and my flow rate will be higher.

[IdreamofDSl]

It will work either way. It may work better with eight paths in paralell because you are slowing the flow rate thru each tube providing a longer dwell time in the radiator giving more time to remove heat from the collant. At the same time you are reducing the pressure against the inside of the tubing wich helps transfer heat by reducing surface tension.
But my main point is the whole radiator with 4 tubes in parallell in so far beyond overkill that eight is just insane. Good luck. Post results if you go thru with it.

[squeakygeek]

I will probably start the project with 4, and get everything else running smoothly before I consider converting to 8.

See that spare tube to the right of the 4 outputs? Isn't that just begging to be modded into an inline thermometer? :)

[Mac]

man you got some amazing skills squeaky, keep us updated! :)

[squeakygeek]

Originally posted by Mac
man you got some amazing skills squeaky, keep us updated! :)

Nah, I just have the right tools. ;)

[Ven0m]

It's a real monster, but here are my ideas - don't use Y lines - splitting and linking flow is already made.
Imho - don't use 120mm fans - they are good for in-case solutions.

I would use some big fan - like common desk fans, now after season they are cheap and if you get one with many speeds, I bet that on lowestit will be more silent than 120mms and will give higher flow. On higher speeds it wouldn't be so quiet, but flow would be extreme.

Ypur pump will give a lot of heat too, so I really strongly recommend not to use 120mm fans.

I'd also remove that last fitting on bottom if it's <1/2"

Your pump probably has output higher than 1/2" too, if so - use tubing of size of pump output - even if it's 3/4" or more. There will be a difference - so to avoid problem with big tuing - place pump next to rad (or maybe even make some pump mounting connected to rad) and use tubing not less than pump output.
btw, your pump has to be submersed, so you could also have huge reservoir.

[thorilan]

the only sugestion i would bake is 2 of benders 172mm fans instead =)

[Ven0m]

I have one 30cm fan.
You can easily buy up to 40cm or more, but bender's fans are also nice :)

[Deathmasher]

As an HVAC guy myself. I think that you would be much better off putting the fans under the evaporator. That is the way it was designed. you should think of cutting the drip try off too I don't think that you would have much use for that. For a fan why not just use and large squirel cage fan they blow a ton of air and the are cheap.

[squeakygeek]

I would use some big fan - like common desk fans, now after season they are cheap and if you get one with many speeds, I bet that on lowestit will be more silent than 120mms and will give higher flow. On higher speeds it wouldn't be so quiet, but flow would be extreme.

Ypur pump will give a lot of heat too, so I really strongly recommend not to use 120mm fans.

You are talking about 120mm fans in general, when I posted that I am looking at a specific fan, and linked to it. Sorry, but your opinion on 120mm fans in general is useless to me. Please read the specs of the fans, and then post whether or not you think it's a good idea.

The specs:

63.05CFM @ 24.60db
94.92CFM @ 30.10db
(adjustable)

Do you think 190CFM will not be enough airflow? If it is, then anything more would be overkill, at the great cost louder noise.

the only sugestion i would bake is 2 of benders 172mm fans instead =)

Who is bender?

Thanks for the posts

[vonkaar]

Originally posted by thorilan
the only sugestion i would bake is 2 of benders 172mm fans instead =)

Freudian slip if I ever saw one...

Bender is a senior member here... he has this super-human ability to find strange and unusual parts from some unknown corner of the globe.

Personally, I would just do a google on 'electronic surplus Comair' and find a cheap place to buy a used Comair fan. Look for a Vanguard if you can find it, that was their most powerful fan. It weighs like, 15lbs though.

[squeakygeek]

sounds loud.

[IdreamofDSl]

I do heating and cooling as well and the evaporator being used is designed to be used with somthing like this:115v blower (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?xi=xi&ItemId=1611630885) or this 12v blower (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?xi=xi&ItemId=1611630889) . It can be mounted in any configuration or place if your handy with ducts. Otherwise I would mount the radiator inside a box on its side and mount the blower so it discharges into the ceter of the two cores. This will be less noise compaired to axil fans and more affective.

[bigben2k]

I recently had to defrost my AC as the condenser (just like this one) turned into a solid chunk of ice.

The original airflow path is from the bottom up (now news here!). The air flow is generated by a blower that sucks the air through.


If I had my hands on such a unit, I'd cut up the A frame, and use one of the rads only. Alternatively, I'd mount the unit as is, outside the house and plumb the water lines to the inside.

Nice find. Check the ID of the tubing though, you might encounter a surprise.

[squeakygeek]

both of these move less air, and are more expensive than two of the fans I linked to. The blowers might be quiter, but I don't see a dba rating, so i dunno.

[squeakygeek]

Check the ID of the tubing though, you might encounter a surprise.

...what kind of surprise?

[IdreamofDSl]

The axial fans you are looking at won't flow jack when put under a static pressure load. And these blowers are pretty quite. They are used for residential heating/cooling (forced air) applications where too much noise is not an option. You can find them way cheaper and you will only need one, the link was just an example. Check out home depot if interested.

[squeakygeek]

i'll consider the blower, but "pretty quiet" isn't good enough for a noise rating. With the size of the radiators, I don't think there will need to be much static pressure, but I dunno.

[IdreamofDSl]

Here you go. Big cheap fan (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2559568079&category=26218) Here are some others. Blowers (http://www.stores.ebay.com/friesenelectricinc/plistings/list/all/dept8/index.html)

[Ven0m]

Big fans just give higher flow on lower noise.
I don't say that 120mms are useless or bad, but just inproper for this solution.

Btw - blowers are usually more noisy to normal fans.

[squeakygeek]

Here you go. Big cheap fan Here are some others. Blowers


Thanks for the links. That find has potential, but we still dont have a dba rating (i'm going to email them about that), and another thing is the auction has an unknown reserve, and there's no way I'm going to bid against an unknown reserve. (going to email them about that, too)

Big fans just give higher flow on lower noise.

In general, that is probably true, but none of the big "very quiet" fans seem to have a db rating, and the 24-30 db of the 120mm fans is pretty gosh darn quiet.

[squeakygeek]

I just measured the bottom of the radiator, and that 10" fan (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2561116557) would be a very nice fit :) hopefully the dba and reserve issues can be resolved.

[Sniperboy]

Originally posted by IdreamofDSl
It will work either way. It may work better with eight paths in paralell because you are slowing the flow rate thru each tube providing a longer dwell time in the radiator giving more time to remove heat from the collant. At the same time you are reducing the pressure against the inside of the tubing wich helps transfer heat by reducing surface tension.
But my main point is the whole radiator with 4 tubes in parallell in so far beyond overkill that eight is just insane. Good luck. Post results if you go thru with it.

Just to clarify, a lower flow rate through the rad will not help, but could hurt performance. Refer to the sticky (http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78055).

[squeakygeek]

more paths will decrease impedence, thereby increasing flowrate. I think he mean't water velocity, not total rate through the whole rad.

[IdreamofDSl]

It will increase your potential max flowrate thru the radiator, but if you don't have the volume from the pump to feed the increased volume of the radiator it will decrease your flow/velocity/pressure whatever you want to call it, thats why I was trying to suggest keeping your radiator pressure as close to your pump pressure as possible by making your flow paths equal size (pump flow vs. rad flow).

[juliendogg]

man, u would barely need any airflow through that to cool the water from your cpu, vid card, hdd's, and anythin else you feel like tossin a waterblock on, simple convection would cool it sufficiently with that much surface area. i like your original idea, but i would be sure and seal the bottom of the unit, and have both the fans exausting to create a vacuum effect inside and draw air in through the fins. i notice even with my small heatercore, boosting up the airflow offers only minimal gain in performance, and have you listened to those blowers that go with those units? yah. talk about noisy. perhaps you could find 2 low rpm 6" fans that would be quiet?

anyways, quite a project to take on, best of luck with it :)

J.

[squeakygeek]

It will increase your potential max flowrate thru the radiator, but if you don't have the volume from the pump to feed the increased volume of the radiator it will decrease your flow/velocity/pressure whatever you want to call it, thats why I was trying to suggest keeping your radiator pressure as close to your pump pressure as possible by making your flow paths equal size (pump flow vs. rad flow).

Dude... the volume of the radiator would not change.... and even if it did, you wouldn't need a more powerful pump...

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by squeakygeek


...what kind of surprise?
The condensor holds gas at a relatively high pressure, so the tubing wall may not be as thin as you expect it to be.

A blower is really ideal. The trick is to find a 120 Vac controller for it. (PM me if you're interested, and I'll link you)

A blower will give you more pressure than any axial fan can, and that's the key to good airflow. Don't even worry about the noise, even when turned down, the blower will still "blow away" an axial. ;) The only time that they're noisy, is when they spin really fast, or they're small diameters (like 70 mm :rolleyes: )

[squeakygeek]

The trick is to find a 120 Vac controller for it. (PM me if you're interested, and I'll link you)


What does the controller do? Vary the frequency? Sounds expensive. Why don't you post the link for all to see?

[PoX Freak]

Dude, split the thing in half, group the tubes by soldering a 1/2" or 5/8" piece over the top of two of em, solder a piece to each of the other ends to bring them close together, and do the same thing as with the other one.
I've done this before, and the results were less than satisfactory.
Flow rate goes way down when the line is shrunk down to half it's size.

[squeakygeek]

are you aware that it's already broken down into 4 lines? so you think I should do 8?

[bigben2k]

Originally posted by squeakygeek


What does the controller do? Vary the frequency? Sounds expensive. Why don't you post the link for all to see?
Ok.

Here's the controller:
http://www.scientificsonline.com/ec/Products/Display.cfm?CategoryID=323774

The whole thread is here:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7314

Enjoy!

[ToolBox]

Clicking on the link to http://www.scientificsonline.com/ doesn't work for me.

[bigben2k]

Hum... the site was updated...

I searched and found this:
http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp?pn=3034760

but the pic looks like it's badly linked.

Sorry!

[ToolBox]

How would the speed control work. Can you adjust the speed or is it a preset?

[bigben2k]

No, you can adjust the speed, any way you want to. Check the thread, there's info in there.

I sent an e-mail to Scientifics, to see if this can be cleared up. I'll update as possible.

(BTW, how's your project coming along? ;) )

[ToolBox]

Very, very good. I'm stuck on a few things (case issues, but always have) I don't wanna hijack the thread so I'll PM you the rest.

[Ven0m]

99% that it's simple tiristor system. It's the only effective AC power limiting I know.
I've posted more on Iwaki pump power limiting:
http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=233915

[ToolBox]

Are they hard to set up, as in require a lot of soldering etc?

[squeakygeek]

How does an AC fan speed control work? Wouldn't you have to vary the frequency?

[Ven0m]

Frequency remains unchanged.
Howto describe it... You just give less power.
Normal AC voltage is sinusoidal, tiristor lets you start transmitting power from any moment of sinusoide (starts transmitting on external impulse, stops on transmitted voltage going zero)

Power is square proportional to surface between voltage graph and zero line. So for example draw sinusoide, calculate field.

And draw second sinusoide, but cut of let's say first 1/3 of each hill or pit - that's how voltage will look like after using tiristor.

one line unchanged
----------------------------------

tiristor (as always, ignore dots)
------------[====]----------
. . . . | . . . . . |
. . . . \-(wait)-/
impulse has to wait 0-16.7miliseconds (60Hz AC input), should be easy to make & adjust this delay


before:
. .--. . . . . . . --. . . . . . . --.
./ . . \ . . . . / . . \ . . . . / . . \
. . . . .\ . . ./ . . . .\ . . ./ . . . .\
. . . . . \ . ./ . . . . .\ . ./ . . . . .\
. . . . . . --. . . . . . . --. . . . . . . --

after(example):
. .--. . . . . . . --. . . . . . . --.
. |. . \ . . . . .|. . \ . . . . .|. . \
. . . . .--. . .--. . . .--. . .--. . . .--
. . . . . .|. ./ . . . . . .|. ./ . . . . . |
. . . . . . --. . . . . . . --. . . . . . . --

Voltage is zero, then late but very rapid rise, later like normal sinusoide till it reaches zero. (and so on)

I'm not an electronics expert, but it's the only good solution, modifications of frequency are uber-hard. This solution is reliable, limits power without need to modify engine workin properties, you can find tiristors for ANY power even to limit power in train.

The other good thing with tiristors is that they produce very low heat comparing to power they limit (not even compare to resistors).
I'm not sure if they are called tiristors in English, as it's just my "translation".

Anyway it's NPNP or PNPN semiconductor unit.

I think that in electronics shop, you can buy a set with all "ingredients" and scheme. If not - shopper should instruct you and sell all parts needed. Be sure to tel what freqency it's supposed to work on and needed power (it would be dumb to buy far too powerful unit or one which would just burn).

[sHrewd]

not that it matters or anything but figured i might as well let ya in on it incase no one else has....
its not a radiator like your thinking, nor a condensor, its actually the evaporator, old kind i beleive dont think they are used in the newer ac units, anywho i have on in my house (trailer....) we have to custom order parts for it when they finally croak over...bleh...gets expensive but ya.... anywho just thought id let ya know its the evaporator ;)

[junkymagi]

hehe, badly linked indeed, found out that is actually the picture for a pump, hehe

http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp?pn=3060307

[IdreamofDSl]

not that it matters or anything but figured i might as well let ya in on it incase no one else has....

Check the fourth post down, first page. We already know what it is, but thanks anyways.

[Dicion]

Originally posted by Ven0m

I'm not an electronics expert, but it's the only good solution, modifications of frequency are uber-hard. This solution is reliable, limits power without need to modify engine workin properties, you can find tiristors for ANY power even to limit power in train.


Not true, Frequency modification is not hard, just involves more parts/design/etc, and therefore much more expensive then some capacitive/inductive clipping like that does. Also, yes it would create more heat, and require more power. But in the end, it would be MUCH smoother, quieter, and overall better for the motor.

Basic Frequency modification requires at least 3 parts:

1) AC-DC initial converter
Converts that 110VAC into say 110VDC. Very easily done
2) Tunable Multivibrator circuit
Used to create the new frequency you want, can be easily made variable.
3) Amplification Circuit
Would take the output from the multivibrator, and used it to drive a high-power transistor to create the new 110V at the new frequency.

If you guys really wanted, I could try to find a circuit diagram or something and parts list for something like the above for all the DIY type people. The only ones ive seen on the internet are industrial sized ones, and those are WAYYY to friggin huge for something this small.

Btw, I'm new to the forums, just thought i'd share my knowledge with the rest of yall.

EDIT: I was thinking about this last night, and it came to me, that modifying the frequency would change the voltage, due to the way RMS voltage is calculated (btw, 110V is the RMS voltage reading from the wall, not the true peak-to-peak reading.. thats closer to 200V) So if you decreased the output frequency, the RMS voltage would also decrease, and likewise with an increase in frequency... a solution would be a manual adjustment of the voltage coming to the amp circuit, or an auto-adjustment circuit, however the manual would be much easier to do.

Sorry if I'm going too in-depth with all this stuff... but it's what I stay up at night thinking about sometimes :)

[Hawker-rider]

hey DICIOn

WELCOME!!

back to the poster,

That sure is a sweet uit there, but are you seriously thinking of keeping that inside? it just begs to be an outside unit, and just have some plumbing to the inside.

[squeakygeek]

That sure is a sweet uit there, but are you seriously thinking of keeping that inside? it just begs to be an outside unit, and just have some plumbing to the inside.

lol, i can hear it begging... but if i put it outside, then i will have to take measures against condensation.

[Dicion]

outside? hmm well outdoor temperatures can change..

I say get yourself a 50$ used mini-refrigerator, and put it in there :) but yeha, the condensation would be a problem. it is fixable though. Just insulate the line coming into the case, and the socket... look for any of the 'condensation, how do i fix it' or related threads all over the place.

[Ven0m]

The problem is that quite nice part of AC sytems don't want to run properly on other voltage than specified.
That's why I wanted to show solution which won't modify voltage (amplitude) and will limit power.

Imho simple frequency modifications won't work propely. And I said that they are hard to make because we considered relatively high power.

If we were talking about low-power electronics, you would be more than right.

But I'm all ears if you have good idea of cheap frequency modifications on high power output.

[Dicion]

well exactly how high power are we talking here? <1A? 1-10A?

The only thing that high power makes different is the fact that you'd need larger, more expensive, high power components. I mean, those expensive industrial systems are built for like 100A or more, i certainly dont see a blower for the size of his project using more then 5 amps, and even that imho is pretty high.

Some of the components for what we need could be pulled out of an old ATX power supply... the entire AC-DC rectifing portion, possibly some of the high-power transistors, depending, I havent really catalogued the internals of an ATX power supply before, but some of those components would be definately high-power enough.

And even if we only could use smaller power components, whats to stop us from running some of them in parallel to get a larger power output.

What I'm saying, is i believe it could be done with parts from your local (or not so local) electronics store, with a little work, for MUCH less.

And about the voltage, that definately can be adjusted for. If the blower needs 110V RMS, but he wants it a lower speed, just increase the rectified voltage while decreasing the frequency, keeping an eye on the output rms with a multimeter. Agreed, this wouldnt be a daily-adjustable adjustment, more like a one-time thing, but definately doable

[Ven0m]

It would be rather <10Watts, what would give about 0.1A avg on 110V.

But I'm rather sceptic to frequency modifications, you know...
I'd rather want o see such thing in action before installing (I have huge <30cm> AC230V fan).

[unreal]

defintily alternative modding

[Dicion]

Originally posted by Ven0m
It would be rather <10Watts, what would give about 0.1A avg on 110V.

But I'm rather sceptic to frequency modifications, you know...
I'd rather want o see such thing in action before installing (I have huge <30cm> AC230V fan).

Well then, at 100mA, that is definately doable, the hardest part about it would to devise a stable frequency circuit at such a low frequency (< 60hz).

Now, about being sceptical about frequency modifications.. I bet you have one in your case already. If you have a Cold cathode with an inverter, then you're already converting 12VDC to about 1000vAC at somewhere in the mhz range.. Now true, it's not a Stable oscillator, and nowhere near the power we'd need, but just to show you that its not diffucult to do.

Also, That inverter only has the 2 parts i mentioned, as it already has DC coming into it.

Let me look around a bit, and consult some people I know, And i'll see if i cant get a basic diagram up or something...

You've given me a mission... to build an circuit that outputs
110-120VAC RMS at about 40-50hz and 250-500mA

I think my first revision of it will do it off of a 12VDC molex input :)

[squeakygeek]

interesting

[squeakygeek]

I got my pump today :) It's a via powerhead 4900, ephasis on the "power". :)

[squeakygeek]

Is anyone familiar with brazing? Would it be hard to divide the runs using brazing? Is it possible to un-braze a joint?

[eaglescouter]

I suspect that these are copper tubes, so the proper joining technique would be soldering. Brazing is for metals with a higher melting point.

[squeakygeek]

these are indeed copper tubes. are you sure that copper does not braze? anyone else?

[IdreamofDSl]

I braze copper on a daily basis when replacing/repairing condensing units and or evaporators on commercial freezers/coolers. You do not need to braze as it’s for high pressure/vibration/low temp applications.

Plus if you don’t have experience brazing small tubing your better off soldering. You can melt through one of your tubes or melt some of your cooling fins. If you don't do the braze quick enough it will cause excessive heat to spread down the pipe and cause damage.

The only advantage brazing has in your application is the ability to fill larger gaps. Regular solder flows too easy and will not fill a large joint, braze will.

Basically brazing is for refrigeration and soldering is for water.

The proof is in the link (http://www.brazetec.de/brazetec/content_en/applications/copper_pipe_connections.cfm)

Edit: By the way all of the joints on that evaporator are brazed. And to answer you’re other questions you cannot unbraze, and as far as how you’re dividing your runs, it may or may not be easier.

For example, if you are making a manifold similar to the return that is existing, brazing will be easier because it's basically a large pipe with holes drilled in it, and smaller pipes are pushed in those holes and brazed. Solder will flow thru the joint and not seal it. If you managed to get it to seal, the joint will not be strong. Braze can be built up as it flows much less. That’s why all solder style fittings have at least a half inch long joint area for solder to fill whereas a braze can use as little a 1/16th inch.

Or you could make a manifold out of soldered copper by using four 1/2" X 3/8" tees (or whatever size/number you need), soldering a tube in each tee, then joining all of the tees together with sections of 1/2" copper and capping one end. You can then bend all of your branches to fit the radiator inlets and solder those to the radiator.

For such a low pressure application you should just make a pvc manifold and branch it with flex tubes, hose clamp them to the radiator at each inlet. But on the other hand, this entire project is overkill so why not braze it. LOL!

[squeakygeek]

thanks for the info. is it possible to un-braze a connection? or would i be better off cutting them?

[IdreamofDSl]

Check my last post, I was editing as you replied.

[squeakygeek]

I think I'm definately going to braze it (manifold), because those fittings get expensive. And, I'll learn how to braze :) The other point of doing this is to learn new things.

[IdreamofDSl]

Well the tees are about $1.50 each, the tubing is an even cheaper if you can buy it by the foot from a local hardware store. You'll only need a few feet.

Brazing will cost you bucks if you don't have a torch capable of brazing. Look on the torch cut sheet, it will give you specs on what size tube it will braze up to. I use an Air/Acetylene torch with interchangeable tips. It gets the pipe hot quick for a damage free braze and it's very portable.

I tried some if the expensive L.P. torches and they just don't get hot fast enough. Also if I got you worried about damaging anything, just soak a cloth towel and lay it over the cooling fins closest to the braze joint your doing, between the dripping water and the fins touching the cloth it should keep it from damage.

The only home depot style consumer torch I would get for brazing is the Bernzomatic Oxy/Propane outfit. But you probably already have something good enough. Plus you need to get the correct brazing rod and acid clean paste. You can try it without the paste but you may run into to trouble with the old corroded copper tubes. I think my company uses Phosphorus bronze or Silva braze rod, can't remember. I would get the silver stuff as it takes less heat.

[IdreamofDSl]

Hey, all of this work stuff being applied to computers has made me decide to build a nasty Phase change unit out of scrap parts I can collect on the job. Oh crap, There goes all of my free time. As he puts on the white lab coat. LOL!

[squeakygeek]

I can clean off the corrosion with my wire wheel on my grinder thing. I have an oxy-acetylene cutting torch with interchangible tips, will that work? If not, My dad has lots of friends with equipment, so that wouldn't be too much of a problem.

Are you really going to build that phase change unit or are you just joking? Can't really tell, but that would be awesome!

[Ven0m]

Phase change uses lots of power tho...
Anyway I'm waiting for pics of new systems of both of you :)

[IdreamofDSl]

The oxy-acetylene torch is probably too hot if its one of the larger setups. But if you adjust your tank regulators and knobs on the handle you should be able to use it. Just do a couple of practice joints first to make sure you have the heat right.

As far as the phase change unit. I have a bunch of parts that I have been saving to build one. I also got a small compressor/condensing unit out of a little portable sandwich station that a customer was throwing out that is perfect for it.

It uses R22, runs on 120v, is totally silent and only draws like 2amps. The compressor is a bit smaller than a 1 gallon milk jug. I am still doing research and in the middle of designing an evaporator block that will work correctly. It will be a while until I build it but I will post pics as soon as I remember to bring my digital camera to work.

[squeakygeek]

I'm currently pumping water through the radiator with no leaks :)


http://www.squeakygeek.com/stuff/forums/radiator6.jpg

http://www.squeakygeek.com/stuff/forums/radiator5.jpg

The large tubing is 3/4" x 1"
The small tubing is 5/16" x 7/16"

[Lazlo Panaflex]

Awesome, i cant believe you using a Via for that haha, go for a danner and get mad flow.

[squeakygeek]

Originally posted by Lazlo Panaflex
Awesome, i cant believe you using a Via for that haha, go for a danner and get mad flow.

That's a powerhead 4900

14' head
around 1350 g/hour

What kind of danner can I get for $58 shipped? :)

[sandman001]

I think that I would either stick a blower in it, or have about 20 really quiet 120mm fans on the bottom.

[squeakygeek]

Originally posted by sandman001
I think that I would either stick a blower in it, or have about 20 really quiet 120mm fans on the bottom.

Are you seriously reccomending that I spend $300 on 20 really quiet 120mm fans? Heh, I don't think 20 of them would even fit...

[Lazlo Panaflex]

Originally posted by squeakygeek


That's a powerhead 4900

14' head
around 1350 g/hour

What kind of danner can I get for $58 shipped? :)

You could get a danner 5 for under 50, or i hear good things about Iwaki pumps too :)

[squeakygeek]

This radiator will have 62 parallel runs when I am through with it.... and I got hella work done on it today, so it should be done within a couple of days. I would get very close tomorrow, but I'm down to about 120 psi of oxygen, and I have to get it filled on monday. What I am doing is I cut off all of the 180 degree turns, and adding a 3" extension of soft copper tubing. Each extension will go into the side of a 2" rigid copper pipe. I actually have one of these manifolds completed, and I just have to do the same thing to the other side. Come to think of it, I wanted to wait until I could pressure test the manifold before cutting up the other side, so I will have to wait until monday so I can get some fittings.

With both sections laid flat horizontally, do you think I will be able to run it without a fan, under the load of my barton, system memory, north bridge, and radeon 9500 pro core and mem?

[bigben2k]

That's very possible! You definitely have the right setup to go that way.

But any airflow will increase performance dramatically. Any minimal fan'age would work wonders.

[squeakygeek]

The mod is complete!

new thread:

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=2459938#post2459938