CH5 -vs- BH5...

Which chip type - CH5 or BH5 - does better at a maximum of 2.9v?

I'm one who's not willing to do a volt mod so I'm wondering, since BH5 seems to like (need) 3.2v and up to really shine, would there necessarily be any advantage to me to seek out BH5 memory if I'm setting the volt ceiling at 2.9?

I'm also thinking of expanding up to 1gig of RAM, which also appears to limit overclockability, adding another level to the question of whether or not BH5 memory is what I should look for.

Thanks

BH-5 is better in that it does not require voltage change OCing (don't know about extreme case)

my CH-5 won't do more then 210 in 2.9v it can do 230 in 3.2v.
I would go with the BH-5.

Generally BH5 is better in all cases, but either will do better the more voltage you give it (within sane limits).

Okay, let me see if I can put this in a box...

BH5 chipped memory is better than CH5 memory because it (i) performs better at stock voltage, (ii) overclocks more readily, and (iii) performs better than CH5 when overclocked to the same voltage.

However, the fastest BH5 memory I can find is the Buffalo 3700 which is out of stock, at Newegg anyway, and may or may not be BH5 chipped when it returns - threads voicing the opinion that Buffalo could make the switch to CH5 at any time, and that it is possible after a several week long availability lag for the memory to reappear with other than the BH5 chip.

Since, at this point anyway, I think I'll be going with the Asus P4C-800-E or the Abit IC7-Max 3 and a 2.4c, would I be better off waiting for the Buffalo 3700 hoping that it reappears still BH5 chipped and maybe run 1:1, or go with some 4x00 CH5 memory and run 5:4 with a higher FSB (and maybe 1:1 if it turns out to be really good stuff)??

And, does the Max3 still have a 5:4 issue?

Thanks again.

The fact that the Buffalo PC3700 is advertised as PC3700 is meaningless. When your buying memory your buying the memory chip + PCB, period. The fact is that your just as likely to get the same speeds from HyperX 3000 (BH-5) as Buffalo PC3700 (BH-5). All memory posted in the Sticky have BH-5 chips, currently at least.

Just like it's possible to get the same clock speeds using some Value-Ram PC2700 (which use Hynix D43 chips) as Buffalo PC4200 (which also use Hynix D43 chips) - Hynix D43 chips don't run at tight timings so BH-5's are considered better. Although this isn't quite true, as D43 chips used in PC4000/4200 has usually been sanded down and other sorts of minor modifications to edge out the best overclocks.

As far as I know of, no PC4x00 uses overclocked CH-5 chips. Most (Corsair, Mushkin, OCZ, ect.) use the Hynix D43 chips.

Wow - Okay, then this question: What's around the corner after these BH5 chips are gone?

Would it be a lapse of reason to assume that the manufacturers know what they have in their hands regarding BH5 chips? And if so, do you think they're working on a better replacement knowing that the days of the BH5 are winding down yet not wanting to lose their 'edge'? Or do you think that they're just 'a component' to them and they'll use next whatever chip they can find that fits their cost matrix...

I can't help but think that someone at Buffalo has taken notice of the sudden interest in their product and are just giddy over their newfound market share. Or that someone at Mushkin or Corsair or OCZ would be sitting around 'the big table' scratching their heads wondering why in the world people are scrambling to buy Buffalo memory like it's the last available upswing stock in town...

Help me out here.

What Winbond over in Taiwan is somewhat of a mistery. What is known is that they, like every other DRAM manufacturer, are scambling around to get DDR-II out the flood-gates. DDR-II is where most of the semi-conductor companies think the real money is. Unfortunately, DDR-II was pre-hyped a little too much and too early, and performance so far (in evaluation models) has not lived up to expections/outperformed DDR by a substantial margin. The fact that Winbond was revamping it's production lines is the exact reason why they switched over from BH-5 to CH-5 chips in the first place. There is some speculation of a "return to form" in the upcoming Winbond 4ns-rated chip (DDR500). Although many people are hoping for "miracle" 2-2-2-6 rated DDR500 (although this isn't outside the realm of possibilties) this probably won't be what is actually released. As far as Winbond revamping back to BH-5, this will probably never happen.

I don't believe that Buffalo PC3700 has gained that much of a jump, as only the extreme overclockers have opted to go with it as a cheap substitute for Mushkin BL2 memory. The vast majority of overclockers, as well as the larger amount of users who buy already-built gaming rigs (VOODOO, ect.) are still purchasing Corsair XMS3200 or Kingston HyperX3200A or other CH-5 memory.

If Buffalo does run out of it's supply of BH-5 chips, there's pretty much nothing they can do about it. Mushkin was one company who spotted the differance between BH-5 and CH-5 early enough that there were still large-batches of BH-5 memory on the free-market. They wern't alone in this, and were forced to enter an open-bid "auction" for these last batches. The price they payed forced them to substantially raise the prices of their memory, enough so that they had to split their High-Performance (Black) range memory into 2 "levels". (using CH-5 BL1 and BH-5 BL2)

A note on Hynix BT-D43 stepped chips.

I bought 2 Generic 512 meg sticks Stepped Hynix BT-D43 (the supposed really good type), and noticed several things about it. It stocks at CAS 3. It takes *garbage* timings and a 2.8 VDIMM to reach stable DDR 450 levels (for me at least). It doesn't work well at all in nForce 2 boards in dual channel(personal experience again). Just thought you'd be interested.

Basically, don't go with Hynix over BH-5.

Well, I found the mention of BH4 memory - and that it's not available yet, with no eta on the horizon, and that's even if it is in actuality what people think it's going to be, for which there's no guarantee.

So, by what I can gather from you guys, the BH5 is the best I can get. Now it appears the question is becoming: Which BH5 memory?

If, as I've read in several different threads, there's no real difference between the cheapest BH5 memory and the most expensive BH5 memory - other than the PCB and heatsinks - why is everyone clammering for the higher-speed labeled memory? Is it because the lots from which they produce the higher-speed memory have been tested and produce consistently better results?? Sort of like processors??

I'm one who believes it's far better to buy once well than twice poorly, so I'm really tempted to connect to Newegg tomorrow morning and order up two 512mb sticks of Mushkin PC3500 Black Label II and be done with it -- unless someone can suggest better memory to buy or knows of some reason why I would be wise to wait. They could send the motherboard and processor at the same time...

But, still reading and learning.

Aughtsix said:

I think I'll be going with the Asus P4C-800-E or the Abit IC7-Max 3 and a 2.4c, would I be better off

Click to expand...

buy Asus P4C800 Version 2.0
version 2.0 cloks better (over 320mhz fsb withou changing agp/pci divider, probably some cand go over 340 changing it) and have better performance than version 1.v
Abit IC7-MAX3 is't so good, have some problem passing 275mhz fsb, not all mobo but some have this problem..

Problem: How do I tell Newegg to ship only v2.0?

Yes, I've read that the Max-3 had a problem with the 5:4 divider, but I thought that was just the early boards. Seems like I can't go through more than a couple of threads that I don't read something bad about something I'm considering buying. It makes me wonder how subjective the supposed problems are - there are so many variables involved. After awhile I grow numb to it.

Anyway, thanks for the heads up.

A couple of important points to consider:

No 865/875 motherboard really clocks that well with 512MB sticks instead of the 256s that the extreme overclocks are almost always achieved with. Buying Mushkin does not change this (read their site, they have point this out). 512s do nearly as well as 256s at 1:1, but are clearly limiting in 5:4 mode.

BH5 at 1:1 with a 2.4c is unrealistic. You buy BH5 over CH5 for the improvment in the way the 5:4 mode works, as CH5 works pretty well in 1:1 applications. Neither is really any pumpkin for 1:1 until the cpu multiplier gets to the 15-18 range.

Kingston HyperX 3200 (not 3200A, which is CH5) is a great BH5 still available from newegg. I don't know how much cheaper it is than Mushkin at this point.

Going with an Asus (whatever version you get) will ease these difficulties as compared to an Abit. Abits are faster, but harder on the ram. Either board will require BH5s and a volt mod to really optimize a 2.4c configuration. And either will clock a lot higher with 256s than 512mb sticks. Ram quality is a real issue with these chipsets, expecially when you elevate the fsb radically and run the async modes. To be honest BH5 is the best ram type for these chipsets at present, but cant really do its best with 512MB sticks in 5:4 and will require a voltmod do do acceptably well in most 2.4c cases.

I have a question for you Larva that's a little off topic and my apologies for busting in. I have hyperx pc3500. I thought these were ch-5 modules, but I'm able to get the settings in my sig. How can you tell by looking at the memory what type of modules you have?

I can tell by the results you are getting that they are BH5. HyperX 3500 was BH5 for the longest and is one of the best, if not the best BH5. Running 1:1 mode helps, as does have 256s. Does your Max 3 work above 2.8v vdimm? If so I'd be inclined to pump up the voltage to 3.1V or so and try for 250fsb. In any event your system is much faster than most when it comes to memory, having all the advantages of mine while scaling the memory clock rate up by 100MHz.

Thanks Larva. I suspected as much. I have it running right now at 3.2v. The voltage is stable at 3.26. It'll run stable at 3.1, but the voltage fluctuates too much. I've tried getting more out of the cpu but no matter what memory timmings or Vcore, this is the best I can do. I'm pretty convinced that the cpu is the bottle neck.

Yeah, I'm hoping this well used 1.8a of mine holds onto life for a while, I'd hate to buy a 800fsb and lose clock rate. Oh well, at least your mb works right, most people claim the vdimm doesn't work past 2.8V. In reality your system is very nearly as fast as anything the way it is so it's not a bad turn of events on the whole.

Yeah, I've heard a lot of people having trouble with their max3. I can't say I believe its a bios problem like most hope. I think its hardware related and would choose the rma route if mine wasnt working. Yeah, you've got a great overclock, hard to beat what you've done. Thanks for the compliment. I feel pretty lucky to get what I've gotten

You mean I have even more to consider?? And just when I thought I had reached my befuddlement saturation level...

I've already figured if I get a good clock the 1:1 is probably not a viable option. That's the problem - if I get a good clock. So much rides on a relative unknown.

I'm guessing that if I run much more than around 240-245 on the cpu, which is decent, the ram won't keep up, so I'd have to drop down to 5:4 which will put me at around 200 on the ram. Not wonderful for bandwidth, but I could shoot for low latencies. After all, a very wise man - RAM Yoda - once said this:

Since our bandwidth in dual channel is sufficient to very nearly maximize system performance when running the ram at 400MHz, if it costs us latency performance to raise the bandwidth we lose, lose, lose.

Click to expand...

If I can achieve low latencies and push it up to 230 or so I'm looking at 290 and up on the cpu. Outstanding overclock in my opinion, but I don't want to count on it. So, which way to go...

I could pick up a 2.6, but that won't change the picture to any great extent. Or, I could go with a 2.8 and keep my fsb down in order to run 1:1 with decent ram as long as I don't sacrifice latency on the altar of bandwidth.

I'm beginning to think, currently, the best option may be to go with a 2.8 at around 245 and 5:4 shooting for tight timings. The 2.8's are running out of steam at around 245 anyway, I read, which would give me 3430. Running quality ram at 200 I might be able to hit the holy grail of 2-2-2-6 - if the planets line up and I wear my favorite and very well-worn James Gang t-shirt on the second Tuesday. [the young guys are asking "who the heck is the James Gang...". Ask your folks - I may have been sitting next to them at one of the concerts, though neither of us would remember it. So, never mind.] That would give me good cpu performance and decent ram performance with low latencies.

So, it seems as though the hub of the wheel is the ram - buy high quality ram and lessen the risk of a wash. That's why I would rather overspend, if I have to, on the ram so as to increase my odds of having a good cushion on the cpu/motherboard performance.

Ya gotta love this hobby...

And, I forgot to add, I wouldn't at all mind dropping down to 2x256 as long as it won't bottleneck me for future games.

Then again, I'll probably have built another system by then anyway...

2x256 it is. You just saved me some money that I can now spend on, uh, hmmm, well, something else.