View Full Version : Need help please! Peltier cooling not on a PC
Alright, well...here is my idea.
Turbo charged cars have an intercooler, they use those to help drop temps comming from hot turbos. Side mount intercoolers dont get much if any airflow, and big front mount intercoolers are $$$ and have a bigger pressure drop due to its size.
My idea is to cool the side mount intercooler with Peltiers. Cars run on 14.4V, so that wont be a problem. If I slap on a big heatsink, slk-800 or so and then plumb some pipe from outside air to cool them. At 30mph, thats a lot of air, let alone 60+ and even drag racing...
I guess my question is, where can I get larger peltiers? I can make my own custom copper heatsink to match the size. I plan on installing this on a switch. We dont need a freezing intercooler when daily driving. I also plan on installing a cap so it wont be so hard on the battery and alternator. However, we did install a 1000watt underbody neon kit, and it was fine, showed no signs of damage to any electrical components.
What do you guys think?
What kind of temps are you looking for ? What size engine and and RPMs are we talking?
Its my brothers 1990 Tsi Talon, its a 4cyl and he shifts at....6-7k?
Not sure about intake temps. I am going to install a guage for that, and just keep adding peltiers untill it starts to cool down!
not sure how efficient peltier cooling would be for that... wouldn't it be more efficient just to spray some water onto the hot intercooler and make use of the water's latent heat of evaporation? (I think they banned this in F1)
the thing is, I'm sure that the peltiers would draw quite a few HP's worth of energy, so it might not be so worth it.
sandman001
10-22-03, 10:15 PM
the problem is, pelts can take away like 200 watts of heat...if that.
That's going to be a lot pelts, and a lot of power, and if you do this, I'd watercool it, and hook it up to a radiator, as it would be more effective.
Like I said earlier...the alternator is fine. We installed a 1000watt underbody neon kit, and its fine. If we used 1000watts for the peltier there should be no problem, anyways...we would only use the peltiers while racing. I dont see how it would rob HP, its cooling the air. Its not being driven off the engine itself. I am sure we could go even more then 1000 watts for the peltier. Its a small side mount IC. 1 Pelt for intake pipe, 1 pelt for outlet, and maybe 2 on each wall and 2 on top and 2 on bottom. So thats a total of 8 @ 200 watts, 1600 watts. We had that neon kit on a lot longer then 12-13 seconds. Plus with the install of a CAP, it would slowly trickle from the battery, and not a big drain.
I dont think I would need cold plates. With all the heat the intercooler provides, I dont think there will be any condensation. I think the hardest part will be cooling the pelts.
If I wire this up w/o any cooling, will it damage the pelts, or will they just not be as efficient?
If your engine is 2.5 l, at 6500 RPM it will need about 8000 l/min of air or 133.4 l/sec.
Air has a density of 1.225 gm/l at 1 atm., air also has a specific heat of 1.003 J/gm-C.
133.4 l/sec x 1.225 gm/l = 163.4 gm/sec of air.
163.4 gm/sec x 1.003 J/gm-C = 163.8 J/sec-C.
So what this means is you would need about 164 watts of heat pumping for each 1C drop in the air in the intercooler. If you are running boost pressure with the turbo, the air density in the intercooler goes up, therefore the you must remove more heat. Also as gasses are compressed the temp goes up, this is one reason for an intercooler. If you run about 15 PSI boost you will need 320 watts / C of heat pumping. Might be better to
Just blow lots of air on the intercooler. You might think about cooling the fuel with TECs. 30 years ago when I was into drag racing, we used a cool can to cool down the fuel. A cool can was just a coil of metal tubing inside container that held dry ice and IPA, got the fuel nice and cold. This improved the horsepower 3% to 5% and it was a cheap bolt on. A 1000 watts of power from your alternator uses about 1.5 HP to run it ! and if you could get 1000 watts of heat pumping from the TECs you would only get about 3C temp drop in the intercooler. How much HP do you think you will gain with 3C in air temp, less than 1.5 HP, doesn't sound so good anymore. Better off blowing lots of air at it.
BTW, its only a 2.0L....cooling the fuel is a great idea..never thought of that. I might as well do that at the same time.
Not if I wire in a CAP, it will drain from the cap, and the alt or battery would act as a trickle charger. Now, he runs 18 PSI daily. So I assume then it would be closer to 400 watts per C?
If I wire a seperate battery and a capacitor then it wont be indapendant from taking any power from the motor. If I had 8 200watt peltiers, thats 1600 watts, = 3-4 C drop.
The only way to tell the true HP gain would be a dyno, plus it would help with knocking, his IC overheats as it is. Its the stock small side mount IC that comes on DSMs.
If you are running your TECs near Qmax then your COP will be less than 1, maybe something like 0.4 or 0.5. This means that in order to pump a 1000 watts of heat you would have to provide 2000 watts or more of power to the TECs. That also means you would need the heat sinks that can dissipate that much heat, 2000 watts or more. Now you have more heat than you are trying to remove from your intercooler in the first place. If you don't keep your TECs cooled, you will have a bunch of dead TECs on you hands and a hot intercooler. Try cooling the fuel first, this works better when the mixture goes thur a manifold, but you should still see some improvement in HP without the mix going thur a manifold. For short races try an alternator kill switch, and run off the battery. With no load on the alternator, its worth the cost of a switch. And if your not using kilowatts of power to cool the intercooler, your battery will last a lot longer. Cooling fuel will only use a few hundred watts.
Just shoot
10-24-03, 06:56 AM
Cooling your fuel works quite well.
Brunt I think your on to something but the way your going about it might not be the correct manner. Peltiers are not a very effiecient way to get something cold unless your looking at a very small wattage. If you really want to do this I would suggest you get ahold of a danfoss 12volt refrigeration compressor. There in the neighborhood of $200+. Build a phase change system to cool both your fuel line and intercooler. The little compressor might not be the correct way to go, but easly a ac convertor could be purchased and a ac compressor incorporated into the design instead. Your evaporator would essentially be coils of copper tubing wrapped around your intercooler with the return liine cooling the gas line. your condensor could be easily mounted infront of your radiator which would give enough cooling, if you run electric fans.
At what temp does gas freeze? Is there a generic Freon cooling system we could by and I could just craft my own cooling lines for around the IC?
Just shoot
10-24-03, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by Brunt
At what temp does gas freeze? Is there a generic Freon cooling system we could by and I could just craft my own cooling lines for around the IC?
Well gas doesn't freeze it boils at very low temps but like water you put it under pressure and its boiling point changes. Start with this (http://www.refrigerationbasics.com/1024x768/rb1.htm) that will give you a very good understanding of how the system works. Yes there are generic systems that could be purchased out right but they will be pretty pricey. It will totally depend on your budget. take a look here for some basic premade units without the evaporator of course (http://www.grainger.com/) search for condensing units. This is just a suggestion but I would say this same unit that you will see can be built for a fraction of the cost listed. It will take alittle digging and searching but scavenger hunts are fun.
{PMS}fishy
10-24-03, 09:26 AM
Why not run some NO2? That is the point of it you know.
The only way to really get a cold intake charge from the turbo efficantly is an AIR/WATER intercooler, and it is most likely going to be top, or front mount. There really is no cheap way to hack a turbo car. I highly doubt that any soft of TEC is going to make any difference at all. Another problem is that the CAP that you are going to want to use, and all CAPs are meant for high drain short application uses. A TEC is a constant drain, and would kill your electrical system. You could get a bigger alternator, but that is going to but more strain on the motor, and it will be more for the crank to drive, and the benifits that may have been gained are already lost.
Gas freezes somewhere between -90C and -107C depending on the grade and octane rating, and will boil around 99C. If you are considering NO2, this could be very costly. Your on board computer will not compensate for that much extra oxidizer. At the very least you will need a custom ROM chip for that, and to be of any value, NO2 must be injected as a liquid not a gas. Now all that said, running 18 PSI boost more than doubles the HP of that engine without the turbo, add in NO2 can double your HP again! Do ya think stock mains and crankshaft can take that kind of strain.
Actually, the motor in a Tsi Talon are the same of an Evo Lancer. Stock motor now has just about 400HP. I said I would install the TECs on a switch because it wouldn't run all the time. Just for 12 seconds it takes to run down the track so the CAP would be perfect...as long as I got 1(or more) big enough. ;)
But..I moved away from the TECs. I read about having a C02 spray on the intercooler, but my brother doesn't want to have anything he has to refill.
My brother does have a piggy-back system for his Fuel, he has the Apexi-II sAFC, air fuel controller. I think I might through a TEC or two on the fuel lines. Maybe get a waterblock after the filter, something can keep up with the pressure. Use some low watt TECs. Any suggestions on cooling?
Cooling the fuel with peltiers would be nearly as pointless as cooling an intercooler with peltiers. You don't get something for nothing. Ever hear of the law of conservation of energy? If you are creating energy with your alternator in order to use, that energy must be consumed in the form of fuel. Adding large loads to your alternator WILL increase horsepower consumption on the part of the alternator and WILL decrease gas mileage.
Cooling fuel was used mainly in large engined carburetated cars where the latent heat in the engine bay would boil the fuel before it entered the engine, causing vapor lock. On a fuel injection car, with the pressures that are produced by the fuel pump, this will almost never happen. So why else would you want to cool your fuel? Well, in theory, cold fuel could cool your intake charge. But its not worth the time and effort you want to put into it. The peltiers will draw more energy from the alternator than you will gain from the cool fuel and you will still get no more power than if you had just turned up the boost a pound...
If you want to do something that is worthwhile and cheap, set up a water injection system. This WORKS and far better than cooling fuel or anything involving peltiers on a car ever could.
Mark
Did you NOT read the posts? Its called Installing a 2nd or even 3rd battery. How about ya read the posts. I even suggested using CAPS if it was to much for the batterys. They have 8lb batterys, dont weigh much.
From what people say on this post, fuel doesn't freeze untill -99C, which means if I get the fuel @ -15C from peltiers, thats pretty damn cold. I bet that would help out a lot. Not as much as N02 which comes out at like -40C, but I could get the fuel that low and its still on where near freezing. Now, Even just keeping it at 2-3C incase there is to much condensation. Cold fuel will lower the temps a lot. If the fuel is below 0C, there ya go.
Please read the post before you start saying stuff...
The_Jizzler
10-25-03, 11:59 AM
wow, i cant believe it! ive been kicking this idea around for about a year now! small world... anyways, yea i believe that TECs arent right for this application. hwy not just hack your cars ac system and put the evap on the intercooler??
also, you guys keep referring to the alternator and tec thing. but how much power is he really gonna lose? i mean if the engine rpm's are high enough the alternator will engage no matter what. and i dont think it cares whether or not it has a 100watt load or a 1000watt load. wouldnt the drag be the same? i always thought alternators were like power supplies, if its rated for 1000 watts, it produces it. whether or not you have that much load on it is up to you, but the 1000 watts is available regardless. someone correct me if im wrong. i probably am,..lol
Yes, you are wrong. Alternator only puts out the power it is required to. Just like your computer power supply, it doesn't consume the same amount of power at all times. As power required goes up, alternator increases its drag. Go sit in your car and turn on every electric accessory. You'll notice that the idle will drop a bit before the ISC catches up. This is extra load on the engine. This is the concern when doing something like this for everyday use.
As for Brunt, go ahead and waste your time. I feel I've given good advice. Go to a drag strip and see how many professionals are doing the same thing. In other words, none. Above, you haven't shown that you understand that in order for a peltier to work, you must cool the peltier as well. This is more complication to add to the task. If you want a one shot deal for going down the strip, a co2 bottle to spray down the intercooler each time works fine and is cheap and easy. I've see guys use hand pressurized water sprayers as well, but the tracks frown on getting water on the staging lanes.
You want to put in "CAPS" (thats capacitors, not an acronym that needs to be capitalized), those cost money. You want to put in 8lb racing batteries, those cost money. You want to do all of this on your time, how much is your time worth? Unless he's knocking on the door of 8 sec times and is looking for every little tweak he can do, there are far better things to spend your time and money on.
Mark
As for the A/C thing, its been done. The Lightning uses it and there is at least one company that makes a kit to retrofit your intercooling for A/C operation. However, what they do is different from what you are probably thinking. They run water/air intercooling, then use the A/C system to chill the water. As you'd expect, this is only good for a temporary boost in power before the water heats back up. This is almost practical for people who just want power for the time it takes to get down the 1/4 mile strip. You sit in the staging lane with your A/C running, keeping you cool while everyone else is getting hot and sweating because they removed their A/C for less weight. Meanwhile, your water is being chilled as well. When it comes time to race, you turn off the A/C (law of conservation of energy, remember?) and make use of your temporarily chilled water.
So why don't more people do this? Well, its a one shot deal. You don't get that power all the time. You have to let the water chill before it produces any gains. At the drag strip, the pros would rather just rip the A/C out for less weight and fill the water/air system with ice water each time.
It all comes down to what you are trying to accomplish in terms of your goals and how much time and money to have to put into it.
Mark
Yup, heard of the lighting, now..again
If I INSTALL a DIFFERENT BATTERY then it WONT use the ALTERNATOR. I HAVE A BATTERY CHARGER AT HOME.
I never said I wanted this used for daily driving. I wanted it for the strip. Instead of always putting me down, how about TRYING TO HELP.
Its people like you that waste bandwith and my time.
I have already moved away from TECs on the IC. I still plan on putting a TEC on the fuel line though. ALSO, I know TECs have to be cooled in order to work. Why do you think just a few posts ago, I asked
SUGGESTIONS ON COOLING?
Why dont YOU read the posts.
My brother does have a piggy-back system for his Fuel, he has the Apexi-II sAFC, air fuel controller. I think I might through a TEC or two on the fuel lines. Maybe get a waterblock after the filter, something can keep up with the pressure. Use some low watt TECs. Any suggestions on cooling?
Also, I am just looking for a way to cool the intercooler. My brother has a stock sidemount IC for his talon, running 18 PSI, and the stock IC get way to hot. FMIC would cost nearly $1000 and have a pressure drop due to the size. My brother gets full boost around 3200 rpms.
I am just looking for a way to cool it down. TECs, are out...A/C with a new system is now. Now, if I try to copy other systems, or make my own.
SHUT UP.
Your not helping.
Here's a thought for ya Brunt. An IC with the nads to cool that much air flow is going to have a rather large volume of air inside it at any one time, more than 2 or 3 L I would guess. This all is part of your manifold system and all of this has to be pressurized by the turbo. This extra volume is going to cause a form of turbo lag ( also cause by the time it take to wind up the turbo ). When you nail the throtle, the turbo must pressurize the IC as well as the cyclinders. Turbo lag was always on the other end, keep it as close to the exhaust ports to minimize this. But with an extra volume in the intake manifolding, it mabe on the intake side. This might be a case when less is more.
Well, thats one reason why we want to stay with the smaller side mount IC, instead of going with a larger Front mount intercooler.
I guess I need to know more about the cars configuration inorder to help you more.
You have helped a lot, thank you.
joemac1
10-27-03, 09:09 PM
Sounds like a good idea to cool the fuel using three or four pelts. Then with a 12 V pump cool the water block using a tranny cooler – this could work.
If you want to do something that is worthwhile and cheap, set up a water injection system. This WORKS and far better than cooling fuel or anything involving peltiers on a car ever could.
He is right. Water injection is a PROVEN way of increasing power on a forced induction engine. It lowers the temp of the intake charge dramatically allowing more boost without detonation.
Do a search for "homemade water injection" on google, yahoo or whatever. A decent kit can be made for under $100.
If you have a higher budget and need something just for drag racing, look into running a small (25-50) shot of N20. It will allow you to run much more boost, assuming the rest of the car can handle the power.
Mustanley
10-27-03, 09:47 PM
Do a net search on alcohol injection. It will cool the intake charge a little better than water injection.
In the end , there is no cheap way to add any significant horsepower unless you can safely crank up the boost.
Yeah...I have read all about water injection, alcohol, and even propane injection. Propane is pretty damn cold too.
You dont understand..the IC is OVERHEATING. Lowering temps in the intake manifold is great...sure, but the IC is OVERHEATING. I am trying to lower temps @ the intercooler.
wouldn't spraying water onto the outside of the intercooler work?
Spraying water or other things on the IC will leave something on the track, the officials don't like that. But instead of spraying what about a water cooled IC, with a circulating pump and a res. that can hold 2 or 3 gallons of water and ice. A gallon block of ice can do alot of cooling. But must be refilled and I know your brother doesn't want that, but maybe for the right price it would be worth it.
True...yeah, they dont like anything on the track.
Water cooled IC, unless I make some kind of res around the current IC, and cycle the water through a res with ice, I cant see any water cooled IC made for that car, and I dont feel like making my own IC hehe.
I have seen C02 sprayed on to the IC..just trying to avoid all things that have to be replaced or refilled atm. If we cant come up with anything, then we might just have to.
I think we will work on that fuel cooling idea first. See what results that gets us.(I know this wont cool the IC)
Check out turbonetics.com, they have some neat stuff like water cooled ICs.
I don't think you understand the point of intercooling.
When air is compressed to a higher pressure by a supercharger or turbocharger, it heats up because temperature is proportional to pressure. We do our best to cool this compressed air to make for a denser intake charge. Not only will this allow us to ingest more oxygen per cycle, but with a lower temperature, detonation will be reduced and hopefully prevented. This means that one of the best ways to make more power on a turbo car is to get the air going into the engine as cool as possible (this of course works with N/A cars too). An intercooler does this by acting as a heat exchanger. In most situations, the heat exchanger is an air to air device. That means that air passes through the fins of the IC, in turn cooling the IC, which cools the air that passes inside of it. Another example would be an air to water. Water passes over the IC, which cools the IC, thus cooling the air that flows through it.
For an air to air (same can be applied to air to water), to improve cooling, there are several things that can be done:
Flow more air over it
Flow colder air over it
Make IC more efficient (with better tube and fin arrangement, I won't get into this)
Increase mass of IC
This last thing is something I haven't talked about yet. You mention that the IC is overheating. No such thing. Its not going to break, or boil over, or melt. An intercooler can not overheat. What it can do is heatsoak. What that means is that the intercooler can no longer keep up with the hot air thats passing inside of it. The air thats passing over it isn't cool enough or you aren't flowing enough of it to maintain a constant efficiency. When this happens, the car will feel fine through a full gear or two, but will start lagging as the intercooler can't keep up and intake charge increases in temperature. Get off the throttle and everything is just fine after a couple of minutes. If you increase the mass of the IC (and all other variables stay the same), you have more cooling mass available and it will take much longer to heat soak. This is the main problem you're having. Well, actually not you, your brother, who you're so diligently speaking for.
You want to be cheap and smart and help the IC issue? Make it flow better. Cut off the stock inlet and outlets and weld in 2 1/4 pipes (or 2.5 if you really want) and things will be much improved. It will still have lousy efficiency and pressure drop, but it is very much worth the time and effort.
As I alluded to above, you don't need to mess with the IC if you don't want to. A good water injection system would help greatly. It doesn't matter if your IC is "overheating" or not. The whole intent is to lower temperatures at the engine. You're losing sight of that goal.
I stand by my original statement that cooling the fuel is a waste of time. Go to a good car forum (preferably for that particular car) and they'll tell you the same thing. If I wasn't trying to help you I wouldn't have wasted this much of my time on you.
But I'm going to guess that you're the type that just won't listen to advice. No skin off my back...
Mark
A MOTOR can overheat and not melt/boil/break(although it could). Get over the fact I used the term overheat. Sorry, its "heatsoaked" because it cant cool all the air. He is pushing 18 PSI on a stock SIDE mount IC. There isn't enough air flow on the outside. He doesn't want to spend $$$$ on a front mount. Getting bigger pipes does nothing but flow more air @ less PSI. Its not going to lower those temps any.
And you dont think fuel @ 0C(or even -10C) wouldn't drop intake temps instead of it being 35C? Not help with knocking and allow higher boost?
Couple of things. Water/Alcohol injection are the same thing. It a mix of alcohol and water. It is a good way of cooling, but a fmic should come first before water cooling. FMIC is a lot more reliable. Most water/alcohol cooling is used with a throttle switch so it only activates at WOT (or near). Please, save up and get a FMIC. They can be had for under $1000 easily. This of course means you won't be getting a Spearco, or Greddy though ;). You can use a volvo intercooler or something (even weld a couple together) if your that desperate, and the piping can be done cheap with a bunch 2.5" of aluminum piping and silicon elbows and connectors. There is also NO2 or CO2 cooling. You spray the NO2 or CO2 onto the intercooler, the phase change will help your temps a lot, and can add a few horsepower in the process as well.
As for water cooling, a resevoir (you can use your windshield wiper fluid as a resevoir if you don't drive in the rain too much), and fuel pump from something ****ty like an old VW Fox or something, and a solenoid. Hook it up with an on/off switch, and a throttle switch (or tps relay), and go.
Bigger pipes won't necessarily flow more. Smaller pipes means faster velocity.
When fuel enter the intake plenum, it goes through phase change from a liquid to a liquid vapour. This will drop the temps GREATLY. Cooling fuel before it enters will show almost now gain. In some cars where fuel is injected before the throttle body the fuel can actually freeze the throttle shut.
EDIT: On a side not, good injectors, with a good fuel pump will decrease fuel droplet size, as well as decrease temperatures more than cooling the fuel before it enters the engine.
There is also a reason why you only see water ic on drag cars, and promos. It is harder to maintain, and expensive.
And doc. a naturally aspirated 2.5L engine won't flow 8000L/min of air at 6500 RPM. The engines volumetric efficiency is probably not very close to 100%. Probably like 70-90%. Probably like 5500-7000 L/min. ;)
Ok, its still a 2.0L, and anyway. So your saying that fuel @ -15C entering the cylinder, wont do any good? It goes through the rail, through the injectors, and gets injected @ -15C, that WILL drop temps a lot.
Fuel at ambiet temps(above actually) vs. -15C.
It will allow higher boost if not anything else.
Having water being injected at ambiet temps does more then cool the temps. It also helps it from combusting before its supposed to. So why would injecting water at ambiet temps be better for cooling then injecting gas at -15C?
Did you read any of the above posts? Are you that blunt brunt? Why do I, or any of these people, bother to try and explain the physics behind these.
Please read:
It isn't the actual "water" that cools it when it gets injected or stops the knocking. The high pressure of the water entering the intake makes the water undergo a phase change. IE. It changes from a LIQUID (water/alcohol mix) to a VAPOUR. Now, take Chemistry in grade 12 and you will see that this is an endothermic reactions. It ABSORBS heat. And guess where it gets that heat from? The air in the intake. That means that it cools the air. A LOT. Definately more than ambient. Now the same process happens with the fuel.
At 18 psi your brothers stock turbo is definately starting to lose efficiency. I wouldn't want to run any higher boost on that. He should probably get a new turbo as well. But I'm guessing its too expensive, since he won't even spring for a fmic. Which can be done CHEAP.
What kind of fuel management are your running? This is just as important, if not more, in knock prevention as cooling the air.
Maybe everyone should read the following:
Hi everyone, I'm thread monitoring.
(For those who don't know what that means, that means we can all discuss things in a respectful manner like adults, or I can hand out 3 day bannings.)
Well, thank you for explaining things. Why bother telling me NO NO NO its not going to work, if your not going to explain why.
geez ;)
BTW, a turbo is cheaper, or if the same price as a FMIC. He has a Apexi S-AFC II. Turbo upgrades can be $200 depending. He has a small 14b turbo stock.
$200 dollar turbo! Be careful. Most new turbos cost atleast $700. You really shouldn't buy used turbos either. When it comes to tons of psi, like 18, cheap is definately something you want to avoid. It's better to save up for a couple of months and have a running car, then to go cheap and blow your engine in 2 weeks ;) A good fmic can definately be found for under $1000. Just look. You can also piece together your own for cheaper than buying a kit.
My brother has a '90 Tsi Talon, stock motor. Its the same motor they use in the Evo Lancers. There is nothing wrong with buying a used turbo, if you know who you are buying from and its in good shape. The whole point is he wants his to spool up asap. an intercooler twice the size will have more lag. I am trying to find a way to cool the smaller intercooler. Really just lower temps. Its the easy way to just get a FMIC...but if we all did that, then we wouldn't have overclocking forums..we would all just go buy 3200+ :) or the fastest Intel.
The first gens, like your brothers, have really good engines, and I know can handle 18psi easily. No doubt. As far as turbos, if you know who you are buying it from, and its in good shape, then I suppose so. But if your buying from a classifieds ad, who knows what your getting, could be nearing the end of its life. A larger intercooler won't lag down your turbo much at all. If your brother really wants no lag, a ball bearring t3/t4ob/e will be perfect. Also, make sure you have a bov. I don't think he wouldn't have one, but they are essential in the life of your turbo. As far as FMIC to overclocking anology.
I like to think of it like this: There is no point in water cooling your computer if you haven't really overclocked that much. Its more risky, especially when with a bit better air cooling you can still overclock it a lot. Just like computers, FMIC is good, you don't really need water injection, its not as safe, the reserve runs out very fast, and when it does run out, your screwed until you find some alcohol and water. With a FMIC its always there and is dependable. Most people will run water/alcohol injection just at the track, and just lower the pressure for daily driving. As I said above, it runs out fast if you run it all the time. Most people hook it up to a micro swtich that activates at WOT, or near to it.
The type of people who just go out and buy 3200+ and stuff I think of as the people who go out abuy Mustangs, or big muscle cars, or new sports cars. Overclockers are the people who turbocharge and mod their cars.
on top of all that, a FMIC looks sick as heck.
Thats true...but we are only trying to spend maybe $200 at MOST to lower temps...there has to be a way :)
I would try an piece together a FMIC. Water cooling should only be used at extreme loads or when it starts to denoate. Otherswise you'll have to fill up every 20 miles. So it's not an effective way to cool for daily driving. If it hasn't started to knock yet, I would just keep it where it is, and just save up some more untill you can afford some effective reliable cooling. You can still hookup a water cooling system, for fairly cheap. <$50 at your junkyard. And make it activate at WOT, that might set your mind at ease. Hookup the solenoid after you intercooler.
OK Altima you got me! I did the calculation on the fly for a 100% volumetric efficiency for a 2.5L engine. But it was to prove a point, that using TECs for cooling that much heat was not the best approach. Brunt had a good idea to start with but needed some help getting the end result to see if it would work or not. Sorry my response is late, I have been out of town for a few days.
i_like_penguins
11-04-03, 12:32 PM
lets see if i rember how that car is laid out. if i rember right, the turbo is on the front of the engine and the IC is on the passanger side of the car. if i rember right, there is a small air tunnel from the front bumper to the IC. I think that this is where fog lights were mounted in some of these cars. If your brother has fog lights, removing them would help out airflow TONS. better airflow=better cooling. you might be able to pick up 3-5 ponies right there, depending on how much the fog lights block the hole. If my memory serves me right those are some fricking huge lights. trying to straighten out the airpath from the turbo to the IC to the intake would probably help some to, altough i am not sure if this is possable. the next thing that you could do would be to get some 120mm fans and mound them on thie IC. again, more air = cooler temps. if you took the fog lights out (assuning you have them) you could just splice into that wire for power and then you could turn the fans off and on when you wanted. I know that this would not give you the ice cold temps that you are looking for, but for like $30 you could lower the IC temps a ton. if you are thinking about trying to use water, a windshield water pump, res and sprayer would work awsome. you could probably get one from a junkyard for really cheap. just have the sprayer spray water onto the IC when the fans are on and when you are at WOT. that way there is less of a chance that you are going to get water all over the place. after that, an air to water IC would be your best bet. you could easily hook up a pump, res, and some TECs if you wanted to. i would go with a 12v danofos or something. keep in mind that you are going to have to cool the pelts somehow. a danofos would come with a radiator and all of the stuff that you needed to cool it. a diffrent and cheaper solution would be to run a loop from your cars AC through the res. some other things that you might not have thought of is a 160 degree thermostat in the engine, a switch to turn on BOTH of the electric fans when you want to race, and a switch that will turn off the alternator to reduce load on the engine. don't worry about draining the battery during a trip down the track. not going to happen. you might have done some of these already, if you did, props to you. hope that this gives you some ideas.
reading throught the thread, man you guys are harsh on each other. i am kind suprised that it took as long as it did for a mod to say something.
Wow. Turning off the alternator before you race? You do realize in order to do that you have to take off the alternator. It isn't like the AC compressor that has an on off switch, the alternator is always on. They really don't put too much load on the engine. Probably gain 2-4hp.. definately not worth it. You could use the money you would need for a new serpentine belt on something else. Running the AC to cool is kinda detrimental. Aside from putting wear & tear on your AC (which costs a lot of money to buy a new one) AC compressors use a lot of horsepower. Probably lose 20+hp using it. I_Like_penguins, when you water cool you should spray into the intake. It vaporizing from the pressure is what cools it. The more power ful the pump, the smaller the droplet size, and the cooler it will be. A windshield wiper pump could work, but not nearly as well as an old pump from a cruddy car.
As a side note, the cooler your air is, the less PSI there is. There is still the same amount of air, its just a lower pressure from the lwoer temps. This means that if you put a front mount intercooler on, your boost guage might show like 16-17psi instead. It will still create the same amount of power as it did at 18psi though ;)
i_like_penguins
11-06-03, 12:34 PM
the reason that you want to cool the incoming air is because the colder the air is, the more dense it is. cooling the air will not cause a pressure drop. the pop-off valve will still keep the pressure under 18, and the turbo will crank out approprate ammount of air. i hope that makes sense. the more dence the air. the more air enters then engine, the more air, the more gas you need, the more gas, the more power is produced. i mentioned the alternator thing because i did not know how hard-core Brunt was in this. some people will do whatever it takes to get that 2-3 extra hp. same with the fan and thermostat mod, although that one could be worth more like 10hp. production cars made now run around 200 degrees, give or take a few. while this may be good for emissions, it is not good for hp. this is another reason for cooling the incoming air charge. not only do you get a denser air charge, but it helps the engine run cooler.
I was into drag racing in the early 70s, I used an alternator kill switch and didn't have to remove it. Ya it's only a few HP, but sometimes it means winning not loosing. Also had special coolant pump on my car, that's a big HP hog. Wow. Turning off the alternator before you race? You do realize in order to do that you have to take off the alternator. It isn't like the AC compressor that has an on off switch, the alternator is always on.
i_like_penguins
11-06-03, 03:30 PM
yea, i have seen those before. never for an import though. all of the ones that i have seen are for detroit v8 iron. some of the new ones actually flow better than stock mechanical pumps. go figure. back on topic, fogging water into the intake also has the same effect as adding a few octane points. you can run higher final compression with less dedentaion. this might let you crank the boost up a few more psi to 19-20.
man, there were some sweet drag cars that came out of the 70s. that was back when there was a class (name anyone) that let you acid-dip cars to lighten the sheetmetel. man those were some crazy mofos. not quite as crazy as the sling-shot guys from the 50s, but still crazy in their own right.
Extreme-power phase change system could work, but fluid would need to work on higher temperatures with possibly maximal thermal removing abilities - it's the target, not minimal temp here.
Definietly high power compressor (possibly not even rotating-style like use in current fridges) and huge rad are a must this way. 1-2kW phase change system could do its job.
TECs won't go because of their poor efficiency. You'd need many many kWatts of pelts, what is really irrational.
i_like_penguins
11-07-03, 12:13 PM
I think that you are working on a bit of overkill there VenOm. Good theory at least. TECs are not really suited for that kind of work. The main issue is getting cooling down the incoming air charge for short periods of time WITHOUT engine load. An air to water IC and a 2-3 gallon res would work perfectly. A small phase change or a hacked AC system could cool the water in the res between races. Or you could move to Wisconsin, it is like 20f where I am right now.
BTW; i have not seen Brunt here in a while, wonder what happened.
Komitet
11-07-03, 03:33 PM
cool down your Intercooler? easiest way is to blast it with a fire extinguisher, aside from that, get a bigger IC, my friends 88 dodge omni, 2.2 T3 turbo intercooled, 13.2 @ 102 mph, he took a broken IC from a transport and had an aluminum welder fit it to size
hehe I have been working a lot...I am watching what everyone else has to say..I really am just trying to lower the temps w/o spending $$$.
I kinda guessed that you didn't want to spend big bucks, so I was thinking of things that didn't cost much and would be easy to do.
Yeah....13kL/min is alot of air to cool down to actual "cold" temps...and I dont want to restrict the airflow any...besides Icing the intake and a FMIC..I might have to try something else...
Komitet
11-10-03, 11:50 AM
a great site for help is turbododge.com it has a lot of experienced ppl, including a 9 second k-car, pm omnivore on the forums, he's my buddy with the omni
{PMS}fishy
11-12-03, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Brunt
But..I moved away from the TECs. I read about having a C02 spray on the intercooler, but my brother doesn't want to have anything he has to refill.
The car has a gas tank right? Or is it one of those million dollar fuel cells?
uhh, you do not understand. He doesn't want to have a cooling system for his car that he has to keep refilling. There, is that better?
Aeon Flux
11-18-03, 07:14 AM
My firend has an 89 inetgra we're trying to rebuild and have fun with. He approached me with the idea of having trying to make a cold air intake. The car still uses a carburator I believe. I suggested yo him opening a straight through tube placed somewhere open in the car, such as under the front bumper for example, and running a straight open tube straight to the carb. His brother and him already thought about that. Now I had this idea of using tecs also. I can fabricate a sort of grill to throw the tecs on in this open airway that would cool down the air. Sort of like a quick fridge unit. I had been ready how he was thinking of throwing them on his intercooler to cool it down. That gets to hot. But what about trying to cool down air thats going stright to the carb.. If Im right colder air would condense more causing more gas to enter the chamber as well and cause a higher explosion which means more horsepower. At least on carb based engines. Is this actually pracical? I wouldnt need a lot of TECS. Maybe three 80 watt tecs to throughly cool this small radiator type thing evenlt. And I know from expereince with an 80 watt tec not cooling anything with a good heatsink and fan you can freeze a hot dog. (Yes I've tried it on mine). We're talking about a lot less power consumtion. SO would it be worth it?
Well, As long as the motor didn't have to suck to hard to pull the air through the grill. Also like mentioned before you could use the air flow to cool off the tecs. It would create more drag but not to much.
{PMS}fishy
11-18-03, 11:41 PM
The problem is there is too much air, and not enough cooling from the TECs.
Don't you think that if it was a really good idea, some large corp would have come up with it already? Especially on the drag cars?
Im not trying to give you a hard time, but its not going to work. I think you may need a better understanding of an internal combustion engine.
Aeon Flux you will need more than 3 80 watt TECs to cool the air for an engine that you are racing. Look earlier in this thread, I did some quick calculations for Brunt on cooling the intercooler with TECs. You will get a big benifit from using outside air and not from under the hood. The temp diff can be anywhere from 30-100 F, that's some big gains for free. Look into a hood scoop and get some ram air effect going for ya.
Turando
11-25-03, 03:32 PM
cold air intakes are readily available already, your idea would work, but having a straight cut tube running straight to the carb is a silly idea, firstly, whatever is in the air, be it bugs small leaves etc will get thrown into the carb! not a good idea! ram pipes work on a similar bases but are usually covered with a thin breather. scoops as doc has said are pretty good, but only used properly with a supercharger. you can although use the simple idea than pontiac used on there trans am.
I never said it hasn't been thought of, or already invented. I am trying to create a solution for a few hundred..not a few thousand.
I guess if its 13,000 liters(At most) a minute...thats to much air to cool for $200...
skinart
12-01-03, 07:44 PM
shim the head, drop the comp, pump the boost :)
shim $50
bring it to our dyno :)
Chad
Maxprime
12-01-03, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Brunt
Alright, well...here is my idea.
Turbo charged cars have an intercooler, they use those to help drop temps comming from hot turbos. Side mount intercoolers dont get much if any airflow, and big front mount intercoolers are $$$ and have a bigger pressure drop due to its size.
My idea is to cool the side mount intercooler with Peltiers. Cars run on 14.4V, so that wont be a problem. If I slap on a big heatsink, slk-800 or so and then plumb some pipe from outside air to cool them. At 30mph, thats a lot of air, let alone 60+ and even drag racing...
I guess my question is, where can I get larger peltiers? I can make my own custom copper heatsink to match the size. I plan on installing this on a switch. We dont need a freezing intercooler when daily driving. I also plan on installing a cap so it wont be so hard on the battery and alternator. However, we did install a 1000watt underbody neon kit, and it was fine, showed no signs of damage to any electrical components.
What do you guys think?
No.
Just spray it w/ NO2 or a fire extinguisher - a pelt isn't going to do you any good in this application.
skinart
12-02-03, 12:32 AM
A straight pipe from the front end is kool, as long as you use a filter in there.
Somthing like a K&N which is one of the best free flowing filters on the market.
Chad
Maxprime
12-02-03, 12:50 AM
I have a '97 Supra pushing 500HP - we've spent a lot of time calculating things like pressure drop and temperature issues across the surface at high winds. The best way to do it is an FMIC - as long as you get one properly matched to your turbo pressure drop isn't too great an issue. Just don't get a huge 4 row intercooler for a 60mm turbo - match it properly and you shouldn't have any issues. We don't see any changes in boost response moving from the side mounted IC to the FMIC.
There really aren't any good ways to get around the IC issue - it's just physics. If you cool it with a pelt - I don't see where you would mount it. Many guys have hooked up systems to spray on the IC as they're moving/dyno'ing - but I don't think it would help much at speed, just a convenience on the dyno.
Long story short - if you do wish to cool your IC you won't see any decent benefits worth the time and money. If you can cool it and you're at speed, the overpowering amount of air at higher temp will probably negate pretty much any temperature drops you can create.
skinart
12-10-03, 11:28 PM
500 hp supra not bad!
Unless you come up against one of our ZX12R's that we have fitted a custom turb kit too which leave our shop at over 420 rwhp on pump gas and weigh in @ under 500 lbs fully wet :)
Yes an everyday streetable bike that lets you leave late for work and get there an hour early lol
Chad
Maxprime
12-11-03, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by skinart
500 hp supra not bad!
Unless you come up against one of our ZX12R's that we have fitted a custom turb kit too which leave our shop at over 420 rwhp on pump gas and weigh in @ under 500 lbs fully wet :)
Yes an everyday streetable bike that lets you leave late for work and get there an hour early lol
Chad
That's a lot of ponies on 2 wheels!
I got to ride a friend's 2003 R1 w/ a wet kit on it, I would just say "scary". =P
skinart
12-11-03, 09:30 AM
ahhh very nice indeed Max, one of my favorite bikes :)
wet system nice choice, what size shot are we talkin bout here?
Im guessing around 50 - 70 which is gunna put that thing at close to 200 rwhp.
sorry bout the off topic lol
Chad
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