View Full Version : Dual Opteron Overclocking
Tyberius
11-08-03, 06:37 PM
Alright, so I'm upgrading my core components again now that i got my new vid card and hard drives. I'm going to go Dual Opterons but I'm unclear on a few things. I'm going to have to use the MSI K8T Master2-FAR (MS-9130), but i'm dreaming for an Abit board with the same chipset. A few questions though...
1. Do you have to use ECC/Registered Dimms?
2. Does each processor have its own memory dimms? I see them all grouped together on the mobo so i'm confused.
3. Do you think its a feasible goal to get the procs running 2ghz - 2.2ghz @ 200+ FSB synced with the memory? I'm not sure what options i have in the bios for voltages and whatnot, but I'm no stranger to my soldering iron so i'm not worried about it. On top of that i have a swiftech watercooling kit coming. As you can probably see, I'm trying to set myself up with dual fx51s.
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Arkaine23
11-09-03, 02:52 AM
1. yes
2. probably not. that board only has 4 DIMMs and is weak IMO. I'd only get one with 8 DIMMs, but then OC'ing probably would not be an option on a board like that.
3. No idea, probably not.
Overclocking options will probably be quite limited, so don't expect great speeds, if any, over stock.
The way that board works, the second CPU has to go through the first to get to RAM, so you're sharing the RAM between the two. You'll need to sticks for dual channel, though, which is something you'll want to take advantage of.
Water cooling might prove to be a waste, if you're not overclocking, as you can get some really quiet fans on those. Keep in mind, though, that the MSI uses P4 retention mechanisms, so you won't be able to use Opteron specific coolers, at least not unless you remove the mechanism. I'm not exactly sure how it works, but I know it's the mounting scheme from a P4 and I know the board comes bundled with two different coolers.
Z
Tyberius
11-09-03, 07:30 PM
So the amd chipset is the only one that has individual memory banks for each processor?? that sucks, cause you definately cant overclock the amd chipset one....awww crap. Any chance nvidia will make a dual?
I believe NVIDIA is working on one, but I might be wrong.
The Via chipset might not mandate shared memory, but the MSI implementation of it certainly does.
The AMD chipset probably won't overclock.
I really don't know much about overclocking Opterons, but as I recall, those people overclocking the FX/A64s are using Via chipsets, so it might be possible.
I highly doubt that having one bank per processor is that necessary, unless you do certain things. What is it that you plan to do with this? In games and such, you won't notice the difference, and I doubt that Folding will care, nor will a bunch of other things. The only thing that's going to take a hit are memory intensive applications that store large files in RAM and access them frequently that are ALSO multithreaded. Other than that, it won't matter much
For the advantages of overclocking and the price (The MSI costs a LOT less than other boards), I don't think it's that big of a compromise, though you're also not getting PCI-X. Of course, I don't need that. I would like PCI Express, though, which is one of the reasons I'm waiting.
Z
Arkaine23
11-10-03, 01:48 PM
Yeah it all depends on useage. I would build one for engineering applications where 16GB of ram and a huge swap are a must, not for desktop/gaming.
And if you're dead set on an Opteron for general computing, this board is a much better choice, since it costs so much less. The shared memory isn't that much of a performance hit in general applications. Again, I ask what you intend to do with it.
Z
Tyberius
11-12-03, 04:33 AM
Gaming primarily, I saw the performance of the fx-51 and was fairly impressed. My logic behind getting dual opterons was that besides being the same core as the fx, i can get 2 of them for the same price if not less than the fx, and hopefully overclock them. I'm pretty sure with the right mobo (i wish i wish i wish there was an abit!), voltage mods and cooling i should be able to get some results. Although im worried that the multi might be locked, and if so it doest seem like a bridge mod would be possible.
psykoman187
11-12-03, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by Tyberius
Gaming primarily, I saw the performance of the fx-51 and was fairly impressed. My logic behind getting dual opterons was that besides being the same core as the fx, i can get 2 of them for the same price if not less than the fx, and hopefully overclock them. I'm pretty sure with the right mobo (i wish i wish i wish there was an abit!), voltage mods and cooling i should be able to get some results. Although im worried that the multi might be locked, and if so it doest seem like a bridge mod would be possible.
There is an abit board out now....... the ABIT KV8-MAX3: Athlon64
but :
lOl
only for SO-754.........
.............................................
Tyberius
11-12-03, 07:15 PM
again, i want a DUAL OPTERON abit board, i couldnt care less about the athlon64, my barton is spanking even a fx-51 right now in everything but memory bandwidth, because the fx/opteron have 128bit memory controllers. The a64 doesnt. So id be no better off
According to the MSI K8T Master 2 FAR manual you can set 200 Mhz to 233 Mhz for the host clock. Not sure if that will mean a whole lot but its a start.
If your Barton is beating the FX, save your money. You're not going to get anything out of a dual Opteron unless you're encoding video and things (and a Xeon is better for encoding, anyway). Unless you have specific need for a dual machine, there's no sense in spending that much for something you won't fully utilize. Most games are dependant on the video card right now anyway, so I think you might be better off just saving your money and waiting and watching.
Just a thought, though.
If you must, your only options are going to be FSB, and that, only if you're lucky. I doubt you'll get much of an OC out of an Opteron, but I guess it won't hurt to try. Keep in mind that buying a 1.4 Opteron will probably be a downgrade for you, and if you can't overclock it, you're stuck.
Z
Tyberius
11-12-03, 08:27 PM
What I will get out of the 940 pin procs are the 128 bit memory busses, I'm tired of being beat by again and again by those infernal dual channel p4s. I'm waiting for the right board. I have absolute faith in abit, i fear no voltage mod nor cooling solution. And I dont really need dual opterons but it would be nice for future games(Doom3 anyone?) that actually do smp, the only one i know of now is quake 3. I know it would be a performance hit unless i couldget the core speed up significantly. I'm thinking the 1.6 or the 1.8s, they have a 10 and 11 multi and if i could get a 200 fsb, i'd be golden. I'll just wait for the right board and for the cost to drop a bit. Cant keep myself from drooling at the idea of dual opterons at 2-2.2ghz with a 800fsb though....
I think your expectations are, unfortunately, too high. As much as other processors do that, I really don't know the ability of the new Opteron to get that high. There are only what, like 2 steppings? It's definitely way too soon to expect such numbers. If they could do it, AMD would be selling them. For the price you'll pay, as much as it might be close to the price of an FX, it's an exorbitant sum to pay for negligable performance differences in games, and no noticable improvement in day to day things.
While it's your money, I think it might be much better spent. Your current hardware is MORE than adequate, and is above top of the line. The highest 3dMark score I've seen is around 7000 more than you have, I think, and that kind of difference is not likely to be noticed at all. Unless you have visual lags in your games, just sit tight.
I know the temptation to upgrade. I want a mobile 2400+. For me, that might be a sensible upgrade, since it would be topping off my system for the next year. Keep in mind that this is totally new hardware, and it's not considered "tiding over". If AMD does a socket change or new Opterons which support DDRII don't work in current boards, you'll likely replace your entire system, for more than what you're about to pay now. This will include your video card and RAM.
Z
Tyberius
11-12-03, 10:23 PM
Good point, but my reasoning behind my ambitious goal is this...if the opteron and the fx are one and the same, why couldnt an opteron achieve similar clock speeds/ They already have the 246 whick is at 2ghz\666fsb, and the 248 is due out shortly after that. The via chipset supports 800 fsb, and its really only a 34 mhz increas on the bus speed....i dont know maybe its just a dream
I don't know how AMD is doing this, but I really don't imagine that AMD was binning entire batches of Opterons as the extremely high end CPUs. They're coming out in very small quantities. I guess I could be wrong, and I wouldn't take offense to being told I was wrong, but I really doubt that AMD is making all of these chips the same. I don't think the stock 1.6 or 1.8 is going to get that high. I might be wrong, though. As long as the BIOS supports overclocking, it won't hurt to try, but it sure would su** if you bought all of this and then couldn't run it past stock, when your Barton would likely equal its performance in most tasks (obviously not multithreaded tasks). I just saw somebody with basically the same system as you propose and they were using it as a file server for one person. It's just overkill. Bragging rights are fine, but keep in mind that this is like 1000 dollars (AT LEAST) and you're only going to end up with another box that does the same thing as the Barton. If you sell the Barton, that might be incentive to use it, but I'll tell you right now . . . I can't use more than one computer at a time, and I've got 4.
I feel happy for a few weeks when I get something new, but then I realize it was silly.
Z
Tyberius
11-13-03, 11:58 AM
amd in the past though has used the same wafers to make all the different speeds of palominos, tbred a, tbred b, and bartons, and then tested them at different speeds. meaning there is a palomino wafer, tbred a wafer, tbred b wafer, and barton wafer. if say a 3200+ fails, they test it as a 3000+, and keep going down until they make it stable. this isnt true for all their chips though, otherwise theyd have a huge stock of high end chips. they still take wafers and just say, these are going to be 2500+s and so on....thats why you get certain low end chips that are great clockers and some that seem to hit a wall. if you think about it its more cost efficient for them to make one type of wafer for their entire model line. ive seen it in the past and i was hoping that they would continue that trend...and as far as i can tell, the opterons and the fx51s are from the same wafer. really the only difference is the fsb, they can both atain the same clock speeds, i dont know maybe i shouldnt assume too much...
What I meant, though, is that I don't think they've got great yields on the really high end ones, which means that the ones marked as lower ones were binned that way not to fill a market of lower-end CPUs, but because they physically couldn't run any faster. I know that AMD bins perfectly capable CPUs as 2500+, 1700+ and 2100+ chips, as there's no way that all of those could reach 2500-2700MHz speeds if batches weren't being binned "down". But I don't think AMD is doing that. I think AMD is lucky to find a wafer capable of those speeds, and that majority of them are tested and fail. But I could be wrong. My point, though, is that if I'm right, you're going to pay a lot of money for not very much gain.
Z
Tyberius
11-13-03, 07:07 PM
and i dont disagree with you, but ive got the chance to play with it before i buy it
I think that's a great idea. I don't remember your configuration, but make sure that you're comparing the processor, not the whole system. A RAID0 array of Raptors is likely to make any system seem snappier if you're not accustomed to using a system with one. You might well have one, I don't recall. But the general computing should not really be significantly different from your current machine, as 2d desktop applications, web browsing and DVD watching and such (the usual stuff; you might well do more. I know nothing of your personal computing habbits) will not be bettered by such a machine. How are you evaluating this machine? Is it pre-built, or do you get to build it, play with it, and send it back if it isn't up to snuff? If you get to configure it, I suggest using most of your current equipment to reduce the number of conflicting variables. The least number of factors to evaluate will result in an easier and much more fair comparison.
Z
Tyberius
11-14-03, 03:35 PM
I do have raid zero w/raptors in my current machine. I get to build this opteron system, play with it, and send it back if i dont like it. And as far as limiting variables, I'll be using identical hardware profiles, with the exception of course in procs, mobo, and ram. But I'm using the same vid card, opticals, harddrives, and cooling system. Just replacing the core components. If your looking for my current hardware profile, just look at my signature. I plan on running a long series of synthetic and real world benchmarks, along with actually playing my favorite games on it.
Originally posted by Tyberius
again, i want a DUAL OPTERON abit board, i couldnt care less about the athlon64, my barton is spanking even a fx-51 right now in everything but memory bandwidth, because the fx/opteron have 128bit memory controllers. The a64 doesnt. So id be no better off
From your own sig, your contention that your XP2500 is "spanking even an FX-51" simply isn't true. I've got a mildly OC'ed A64 (2.225 GHz) with a lesser video card (9800 Pro) clocked less than yours (432/371) and my 3DMark2001 score is 22,205. With your 9800XT clocked the way you have, I'd be close to 24,000 I would think. So, you're not spanking anything at the moment. The price difference between an Athlon 64 3200+ set and either a FX or dual Opteron setup a whole lot.
I abandoned my XP2500+ experiments a while back because all the Intel i865PE setups I was fooling with performed better. But the Athlon 64 goes neck and neck with the 3.5 GHz/Abit IS7 setup I sold to get the new setup. Plus it's nice and quiet with a Zalman 7000A-Cu heatsink. It runs relatively cool only getting to 49C running Prime95. Plus, since I don't need some pricey cooling setup, it might even be cheaper.
Tyberius
11-14-03, 04:43 PM
I was talking about sandra cpu test, and i pointed out that the bandwidth on the opteron were much better, which is why im upgrading anyway. bandwidth means alot in gaming which is why you score higher, but according to sandra, my cpu test scores higher than an opteron 2.2., my apologies i should have been more specific as to what my barton was spanking
No problem. But individual SiSoft Sandra tests are not really measures of performance. You need a benchmark that invokes all factors in a real-world usage. I got nuthin' against Bartons though since I enjoyed playing with a couple in Abit and Asus NF2 boards.
Synthetic benchmarks really aren't something to go by. Yes, they'll give you a theoretical estimation of system performance, but real world usage might not be even close to what a benchmark indicates. I get a score of like 11,000 in 3DMark 2000, but my system is still quite fast (though Dell P4s are kicking its a** even loaded up with spyware and viruses . . .) and I can play my favorite games without many issues (except my hard drive, which is not fast enough, it seems, as I keep getting hiccups in games when it goes to access something . . . I end up crashing my car, and that angers me).
What is the difference in RAM, besides using registered? Is it the same speed?
And I honestly think that Intels perform better in Windows. It might be an illusion, but I've seen a 2.53 without hyperthreading scream through the installation in like 20 minutes or so (and this is a Dell) and my system takes no less than twice as long. I don't know what it is. Gaming and usage -wise, I think AMD competes well, but if all you do is play solitaire and use Word, I think you'd think Intel was better . . .
Maybe I'm talking funny, though . . .
Z
Yeah, the P4 800 MHz HT CPUs are faster than Bartons. But the Athlon 64 is right there with the Intels. Very fast, very quiet, very nice.
Tyberius
11-14-03, 07:12 PM
same speed ram just about, its mushkin pc3200 ecc reg cas 2. but remember im only going for 800 fsb, so that'll be adequate, my amd is beyond that so i need 3500. I dont know about the install thing, mine only takes about 12 minutes.
Tyberius
11-14-03, 07:13 PM
dave, i would go with the a64, but i have p4-memory bandwidth envy
RAID0 array of Raptors might have *something* to do with your 12 minute install :D I want one!
It's strange that Intels are faster in general Windows use than AMDs . . . Anybody got an explanation?
As for the overclocking the Opteron, I guess there's not much else to say until we hear back from you. When do you get it? Let us know what you know when you know.
Z
Tyberius
11-15-03, 03:31 AM
I actually cant tell the difference in windows, and i had my hands on an intel chip that did 3.0@800 almost a year ago. My amd system at the time was still slightly besting it in 3dmark, i believe it was a 2100@2.3 or something. I dont know though, I've got a fast amd chip, yet i cant tell the difference between mine nor my buddies 3.6ghz intel in windows, theres really no such thing as waiting much anymore. As far as P4s NORMALLY being faster...I would say it probably has something to do with the same reason p4s will always be faster at quake3, a much higher clock frequency, i dont think windows is really built to take advantage of the efficiency of amd chips, games like floating point and a much larger amount of L1 cache, but i dont think windows really cares. I cant figure out why i cant bring myself to use an intel system for my main rig, i know that with my cooling rig, a 2.4c, and a IC7G-MAX3 I could probably have a faster machine. But i know(IMO) that in the end, the AMD is a better chip. Its more efficient, it has much more cache, and has shorter pipelines. That and most of my buddies who work for intel have me build them AMD systems anyway, but shhhhh dont tell anyone :)
I think you might be right. I can see why Windows would be faster with hyperthreading, since most people don't JUST play solitaire . . . they listen to music at the same time and such. But I don't know why non HT chips still best the he** out of my XP . . .
Neither is a "better" chip, in my opinion; just better at different things.
Z
Tyberius
11-15-03, 01:40 PM
Fine, better for what I do
psyshack
11-18-03, 06:51 PM
Hummmm
Tyberius
11-24-03, 09:57 PM
hummmm???? Theyre supposed to be coming out with 800 fsb opterons, so maybe I'll just go that route, thats all I want anyway....
Originally posted by zachj
RAID0 array of Raptors might have *something* to do with your 12 minute install :D I want one!
It's strange that Intels are faster in general Windows use than AMDs . . . Anybody got an explanation?
As for the overclocking the Opteron, I guess there's not much else to say until we hear back from you. When do you get it? Let us know what you know when you know.
Z
Thats not true at all.
http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1884&p=11
amd will always with general windows usage.
A stock 3200+ can easily beat a p4 3.2 in general office and web usage because of its shorter pipline.
I understand the advantages of the AMD architecture. I was not saying that general usage meant business applications. I meant that Windows itself feels more responsive, in my personal experience, on a P4 of any type (except the Willie, which I've had the repeated displeasure of using) than on an AMD. I can't explain it, and it's by no means a fact. I was just relating my personal feelings on the subject.
Z
Tyberius
11-25-03, 04:22 PM
I am now very impressed with the responsiveness of my Dually MP system thats running Win Server 2k3, full SMP support for the OS, most responsive machine I've used...
That is one of the great things about MP machines. Duals of any sort run things more smoothly because multitasking is done by two CPUs instead of dividing the time of one processor for all tasks. I would attribute the speed differences in Windows on a P4 to Hyperthreading, but I've still been impressed with non-HT P4s. I don't know what it is. Perhaps my new 2400+ will change my mind
Z
Yeah duallies are great. Here's a list of all the setups I've had over the past two years or so. I liked them all. :D
RioWorks PDVIA with dual PIII 700s @ 933 MHz
Asus A7M266-D with dual XP1600s @ 1575 MHz
Asus A7M266-D with dual XP1800s @ 1667 MHz
Asus A7M266-D with dual XP2200s @ 1885 MHz
MSI Pro266TD Master-RL (9105RL) with dual PIII-S 1.2 GHz ESs @ 1530 MHz
Gigabyte GA-7DPXDW-P with dual XP2400s @ 2000 MHz
MSI K7D Master L with dual XP2600s @ 2300 MHz
These have all been sold so right now I don't have one. I'd like to build either a Xeon 2.8 or an Opteron 242 duallie but with Christmas coming up, I dunno. Maybe when my bonus comes in at work next March. :cool:
:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
Me wantee. I've had an Apple IIsi, a K6-2 350/450 (which would have been great if I had had it when it first came out, but this was when the Athlon was beating the PIII!), 1700+ on a 7DXR+ which was not good, and then a 1700+ on a Biostar M7NCG. I'm about to get that 2400+, though, so things should improve much. Now all I need is dual channel RAM and Raptors in RAID0!
Z
Yeah RAID0 is nice. I've a couple of RAID0 setups (one on the Gigabyte GA-7DPXDW-P) and some SCSI setups. I could never afford the high-end SCSI so I was always playing with older stuff though.
I would think that if I was going for "best bang for the buck", a RAID0 setup might be ideal. You just can't NOTICE any CPU upgrades these days, unless you're moving up from seriously outdated technology. It's really kind of sad. To be honest, I didn't notice much of a difference going from a Radeon 8500 to a 9500np . . .
Woe is me
Z
Tyberius
11-25-03, 10:53 PM
I guess your not as obsessed as I am, I noticed the difference from my 9700 Pro to my 9800XT
dustybyrd
11-26-03, 12:15 AM
Yeah duallies are great. Here's a list of all the setups I've had over the past two years or so. I liked them all. :D
RioWorks PDVIA with dual PIII 700s @ 933 MHz
Asus A7M266-D with dual XP1600s @ 1575 MHz
Asus A7M266-D with dual XP1800s @ 1667 MHz
Asus A7M266-D with dual XP2200s @ 1885 MHz
MSI Pro266TD Master-RL (9105RL) with dual PIII-S 1.2 GHz ESs @ 1530 MHz
Gigabyte GA-7DPXDW-P with dual XP2400s @ 2000 MHz
MSI K7D Master L with dual XP2600s @ 2300 MHz
These have all been sold so right now I don't have one. I'd like to build either a Xeon 2.8 or an Opteron 242 duallie but with Christmas coming up, I dunno. Maybe when my bonus comes in at work next March. :cool:
dang that's a lot of duallies...
which was your favorite?
and how did it compare to your other two sweet single cpu systems in your sig? in different applications and usages?
The last 3 on the list were all great. I was able to run the MSI dual Tualatin setup with the FSB at 161 MHz where it perform very comparable to the dual XP1800+ rig. I sold the Gigabyte to a friend whose still running it. You couldn't overclock it, but it had RAID onboard and working USB and LAN. The MSI K7D was a nice overclocking board that was also nice and stable.
It's hard to compare them to single CPU rigs. My current setups are faster in gaming and any single-threaded applications. But you can't beat a duallie when multitasking.
darthdana
12-10-03, 09:17 AM
I have been able to get my 240's to 1.55GHZ and the 246's to 2.1 GHZ so far. I dont think these chips have much room in them. I wasnt set on overclocking them anyway.
I will try water cooling with one of these board and a set of 248's. But I dont think the results will be any better than my fx51, cant get much past 2560 on it.
Tyberius
12-10-03, 07:26 PM
on your 246's, how high did you get your FSB? I was wondering if anybody has gotten it to 800.....2.56 sounds decent for an FX, watercooling or air?
darthdana
12-10-03, 07:41 PM
I have not played around with any of the direct HT settings yet. I am still trying to figure out the relation ship all the settings have to each other. I have the ?fsb? up to 210 now. I think my issue is going to be this regsitered memory. The only good thing, is that I can run 4 sticks, I cant run more than 2 on my abit ic7-max.
What i wouldnt use is the dynamic overclocking feature of the MSI "core cell", it keeps upping bus speed by .1 as there is load on the cpu, (say folding) but i think whatever they use to check for stability is broken. Cause the only thing it does is crash, and that blows.
FX is watercooled right now, awaiting my Mach2 to come back from RMA. Then that baby is going to 2.8
Tyberius
12-10-03, 07:44 PM
:drool: all i can say is...YOU *******! Im getting a socket 939 FX when they come out, and getting a mach 1, they only $500 now, whats the biggest difference between mach1 and 2?
darthdana
12-10-03, 07:56 PM
You know the Mach1 is really a steal now, relative to the Mach2 I guess. But the Mach2 runs idle at around -50C, and the Mach1 around -35C. Also the Mach2 can handle 200 watts and supposedly stay below 0. I dont think I will need that until Tejas. Although we havent seen any number on 90nm AMD yet!!!
My socket 940 adapter just came today, so here I wait!!!
Tyberius
12-10-03, 08:33 PM
does -15C really make that much difference with it already being that cold?
darthdana
12-10-03, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by Tyberius
does -15C really make that much difference with it already being that cold?
You can look at it 2 ways.
1. No it wont make a big difference, its just extra capacity to handle future demand.
2. If Intel or AMD crap a -50C superconductor next year. (you got a better shot at the cubs, bears,bulls winning it all then too)
If your just trying to get some extra performance and not going to go anal over that last thousanth of a percent increase in some bench that wont matter in real life, then get a mach1 cheap, get a fx51 cheap after the 53 comes out, crank the multiplier up to 14 and call it a day. I am the worst at chasing the bleeding edge, so your mileage may vary.
Tyberius
12-10-03, 11:29 PM
how high is your fsb on your fx?
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