"n00b" to SMP need tons of help

[DayUSeX]

well here is the issue. I need to build a machine for rendering max. I figured smp is the way to go so imlooking at a athaln 1700 machine OCED. I read the very excellent sticky on how to go about this tbut i still have some questions.

1.) Is 802.11b suffienct enough for rendering MAX scenese. I assume it would the only problem woudl be my textures as i average about 2-4GB of textures per scene. So i figured it would choke on that, but maybe not i dunno whats your thoughts, and if it does choke is there a way to sync the textures folder onto the rendering machine so it dosent have to load it over the netowrk.
2.) What is the easit way to controll this machine. I would love to shove it under the house and never touch the thing. So i was hoping i wouldnt need to hookup a keyboard mouse video after all the intial setup and jam it under the house. Is there anygood remote PC that can give me a good virtual desktop that I can axx to check on the rendering and whatnot. Maybe the occansioal reboot.
3.) Do I even need SMP?? Soon as Discreet anouces 64support I am going out and buying the latest and greates A64 machine for the work, and maybe a 3xxx+ for rendering. So should I just wait for 64 or just SMP and be extremely happy now>

thnx

[cmcquistion]

1. I wouldn't recommend 802.11b for this. The files, you're working with are pretty good size and wireless just doesn't have good, consistent throughput. I think it would cause a lot of headaches.

2. You could use a program like RealVNC or TightVNC to remotely work on the computer. It will still need its own mouse and keyboard, though, or you won't have a mouse and keyboard in Windows.

3. This question is beyond me, as I have no experience with that program.

[boostland]

Use 100mbps ethernet wireless would really suck for Max.
Have a copy of all the maps on each server, this really speeds up the job submission times.
Scenes must not have any missing maps or error messages at render time, they will not render remotely Max will fail to load on the render box.
3d studio max will get a good boost from SMP.
The lighting stage only is single threaded on my version 3.1, but the rendering stage will use both cpus.
I use xp's remote desktop for logins to remote Max servers, Max has the QueueMan program for managing the servers render queue.
render to a shared network path ( eg \\server\sharename ) that is accessable from all the computers in the render farm.
On really big renders it is advisable to render to frames not to avi, that way the render can be restarted from the last frame if a crash or power failure occurs. You can have more than one computer working on the same render as well using frames.
Virtual dub is really good at making avi's from frames, much faster and better than max's video post.
I have had renders going for over a week before and have learned some of this the hard way, like getting to 95% and have a thunder storm take out the power for longer than my UPS could go for :-(.
Terragen is good for making really cool moving backgrounds for max as well, it is not smp but splitting up the script and running 1 instance for each cpu gets around this. I have had a two week 4 cpu terragen script running a few months back.
As you can see the more cpus the better for these kind of things.
Btw my first 3d render took 2 weeks for one frame on my 25mhz Amiga 3000 using DKBtrace (now called POVRAY) all driven by scripts.

[DayUSeX]

Originally posted by boostland
Use 100mbps ethernet wireless would really suck for Max.
Have a copy of all the maps on each server, this really speeds up the job submission times.
Scenes must not have any missing maps or error messages at render time, they will not render remotely Max will fail to load on the render box.
3d studio max will get a good boost from SMP.
The lighting stage only is single threaded on my version 3.1, but the rendering stage will use both cpus.
I use xp's remote desktop for logins to remote Max servers, Max has the QueueMan program for managing the servers render queue.
render to a shared network path ( eg \\server\sharename ) that is accessable from all the computers in the render farm.
On really big renders it is advisable to render to frames not to avi, that way the render can be restarted from the last frame if a crash or power failure occurs. You can have more than one computer working on the same render as well using frames.
Virtual dub is really good at making avi's from frames, much faster and better than max's video post.
I have had renders going for over a week before and have learned some of this the hard way, like getting to 95% and have a thunder storm take out the power for longer than my UPS could go for :-(.
Terragen is good for making really cool moving backgrounds for max as well, it is not smp but splitting up the script and running 1 instance for each cpu gets around this. I have had a two week 4 cpu terragen script running a few months back.
As you can see the more cpus the better for these kind of things.
Btw my first 3d render took 2 weeks for one frame on my 25mhz Amiga 3000 using DKBtrace (now called POVRAY) all driven by scripts.

thnx a ton for the nfo. Yeah i always rnder out to targas simply becaue AVI just gives me the jittetrs for some reason. So do you recommen domain based or p2p for this type of networking setup as I would like to keep this system off the inet. And do you think it would be better to do 2 1700+ or just get the 4 733 p3 i have set up as stations around the house and turn them into rendering machines. Eitherway I would have to buy new pcs as the family is uses those 733's atm.

[zachj]

If 64-bit is an option in the future (I don't know if the software you use will be ported soon or ever), then consider getting dual Opterons and avoid upgrading twice. A render farm of many fast machines might prove cheaper, as you can get what is basically a folding farm working as a render farm for around 120 (more for more RAM) dollars per node, and I think you could get around 8 or more nodes running for the same price as an Opteron system without a lot of options. If you went with like 3000 dollars worth of Opteron, you'd be looking at like 20 nodes or so, which I think would blow away a single dual Opteron, even if it were running in 64-bit. Of course, your program would need to scale that high . . . Just a thought to consider. Powering 25 nodes would be expensive. Setting it up would be complicated. If this is just for personal work, I think a 20 node render farm might be a little over the top, though you could fold with the spare cycles! A dual 1700+ or dual Opteron would still probably be much faster that your current rig (I don't know what you're running it on right now).

Z

[boostland]

KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is the best way to do it. A server with domain is not needed.
Use windows 2000 or better as the rendering server stuff does not work propely on Win 9x.
Assign Ip's to all the systems or just use internet sharing on one and let DHCP assign them for you.
Max will run in the background on the 733's while they are being used for net and simple stuff, gaming is another story tho not that a 733 is much of a gaming system today.
Heaps of ram is helpful for large renders.
I still use my bp6 for rendering and it gets the job done eventually.
A few cheap single cpus systems could do the job but the power and the extra ram , hdds , cases and power supllies could make that route cost a bit.
Dual mainboards cost a lot more and usually have less features than a similar single.

[DayUSeX]

Originally posted by zachj
If 64-bit is an option in the future (I don't know if the software you use will be ported soon or ever), then consider getting dual Opterons and avoid upgrading twice. A render farm of many fast machines might prove cheaper, as you can get what is basically a folding farm working as a render farm for around 120 (more for more RAM) dollars per node, and I think you could get around 8 or more nodes running for the same price as an Opteron system without a lot of options. If you went with like 3000 dollars worth of Opteron, you'd be looking at like 20 nodes or so, which I think would blow away a single dual Opteron, even if it were running in 64-bit. Of course, your program would need to scale that high . . . Just a thought to consider. Powering 25 nodes would be expensive. Setting it up would be complicated. If this is just for personal work, I think a 20 node render farm might be a little over the top, though you could fold with the spare cycles! A dual 1700+ or dual Opteron would still probably be much faster that your current rig (I don't know what you're running it on right now).

Z


well if i had the money i would or course do an operton farm. But im trying to go cheap as i want to invest much of my money into my workstation that is going to be the fastes a64-fx possible. I realised 25 noeds would be expenisve to power. How much would a dual operton system cost??

[DayUSeX]

Originally posted by boostland
KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is the best way to do it. A server with domain is not needed.
Use windows 2000 or better as the rendering server stuff does not work propely on Win 9x.
Assign Ip's to all the systems or just use internet sharing on one and let DHCP assign them for you.
Max will run in the background on the 733's while they are being used for net and simple stuff, gaming is another story tho not that a 733 is much of a gaming system today.
Heaps of ram is helpful for large renders.
I still use my bp6 for rendering and it gets the job done eventually.
A few cheap single cpus systems could do the job but the power and the extra ram , hdds , cases and power supllies could make that route cost a bit.
Dual mainboards cost a lot more and usually have less features than a similar single.


well everything i run is xp PRO so that what the machine woudl be i belive. DHCP is what i have the whole networkon. only problem si when max is in the background the machines go to a crawl and it takes forever to switch betwen OPERA and AIM. The ram is 256mb should be enough and the hard drives are all 40gb 7200 8mb. So i dunno what else to do.

[zachj]

256MB of RAM is, sadly, barely enough for WindowsXP alone, let alone more than one application running. At full CPU load, it's no wonder any of them are sluggish. It's an unfortunate reality. OSX takes at least 512 to run smoothly, and it's highly recomended for XP as well.

A dual Opteron costs a lot of money no matter how it's configured. The best I can do is around 800 dollars not including a whole lot of stuff I already have (around 750 or so just for the MSI K8T Master FAR and two 240 Opterons). High-end Opterons will run around 900 each, I think, so make that at least 2000 for board and processors. And for that much, compared to ~100 dollars per node, you're talking about a lot less performance for the money, as 15 nodes would blow away a single Opteron when it comes to encoding, though in every day tasks, you'd probably notice the benefits of an Opteron, as a farm is going to do you much good when you're browsing the web. But again, you're going to be paying one he** of an electric bill. I highly suggest MPs if you're not looking to spend a lot of money. Definitely best bang for the buck. Might not be as fast as Opterons or Xeons, but it sounds like you don't want to spend this much money.

Z

[boostland]

Here is a small render that I was doing.
sometimes 1gb of ram is only just enuff with max running.

[DayUSeX]

hm so i think i will get a couple of 1700+ and hack them to be MP's and maybe WC them. so should i do 512 dual channel or 1gig dual??

[zachj]

It depends. More RAM is always a good thing (when it's registered . . . more than two sticks of unbuffered reduces performance). If you intend to expand later on, perhaps buying 1GB sticks is a good idea, but they are quite expensive. If I were you, I'd get two sticks of registered PC3200 (PC2700 if you don't have enough, though the difference in price is pretty small now) in 512MB capacities for a total of 1GB, though it won't be running in dual channel (MP chipset doesn't do dual channel). Two sticks will be a good idea since if you upgrade to either Xeons or Opterons, you'll be able to take advantage of dual channel, and PC3200 will help since both will probably require it by that time anyway.

Good luck

Z

[DayUSeX]

hm alright ill see whats up and let you know how this little project goes, what do you think of watercooling is it to risky for a rendering machine or dosnet know

[zachj]

Water cooling is "risky" for any machine, regardless of what it's used for. Obviously, a mission critical machine might be better off air-cooled. Water cooling, when done right, is not really any more risky than air cooling. Of course, leaks and pump failures can happen. If you're not okay with the risks, then don't take them. Ultimately, I think it depends mostly on your setup. I don't know that water will help much with an OC if you have good air cooling, but if you're doing it for noise, I guess that doesn't matter, does it?

Z

[DayUSeX]

well almost every machien in the house is watercooled xcept for a p3 500 which is in the kitchen and is used a reciepe book. SO what do you recommend for air cooling that would allow a hihg OC?

[Blueacid]

Well, if it's going to be tucked away in some remote corner of your house, then going for ultimate air-cooling would be better, since then you can have loads of noise, and less fear of a pump failure :)

Lots of ram helps, and if you're just using the new system as a rendering system (not for creation) then go for maybe gigabit ethernet, to speed the file transfers between the computers.

[DayUSeX]

wht would ultimate air coolign been as i never really overclocked on air.

[cmcquistion]

Originally posted by DayUSeX
wht would ultimate air coolign been as i never really overclocked on air.

If using Socket 462 (Athlon XP's, etc), then an SLK-800/900 and 80mm/92mm fan would be high-end aircooling. I believe there is a version of the SLK-900 for P4's, too.

If you go the dual AMD route, you'll want to use dual SLK-800's and 80mm fans. Larger heatsinks and fans (like the SLK-900 and 92mm fan) won't fit.

[DayUSeX]

so if i go slk-800 and 80mm fans can i get quite fans or should i get loud and mosterous ones??

[zachj]

Depends on what you want. When the SLK-800 first came out, people said not to get the Thermal Take Smart FanII because of the fin design, but the difference between it and a Vantec Tornado (which can't be adjusted like the TT fan can be) is only 1 or 2 degrees. If I were you, I'd either get Panaflo fans recomended in the "How to build a cheap and quiet dualie" or something like that. I think it's a sticky, and it was an article on the front page. OR, get the TT Smart Fan II. I've got one and I like it a lot.

Z

[DayUSeX]

alright thnx im going to start placing the orders and ill let evyerone know how it goes. Thnx for all the help.

[cmcquistion]

Panaflo L1A and a SLK-800 is a great combo and very quiet.

[DayUSeX]

hm thnx ill check those out, as i still cant decide in reviving one of my old water cooling setups or going air, but the parts are on the way