motherboard isn't worthy for SCSI

[#18]

I was thinking about to get the fastest SCSI. Then I was told none of the "regular" motherboards I am using is worthy for it. Someone told me the PCI which SCSI card has to plug into, cannot handle even 1/3 of the SCSI bandwidth. umm, not sure how much bandwidth PCI can handle. Well the SCSI drive I was looking into has bandwidth of 320MB/sec. seek time of 3.2ms, 8MB cache, 15000RPM.

If what I was told is correct, then I may not get as much improvements as I should get? What do you think?

Current I am on WD1200JB. 100MB/sec. 8.9ms seek time, 8MB cache, 7200RPM. Compare it with the SCSI drive I saw, I should feel amazing improvements if there is any limit facts.

I want very noticeable performance improvements. That's something SATA won't do.(I doubt any of you SATA users actually feel any difference over IDE you used, which is the reason I didn't go SATA) If I cannot get what I want, then I'll just use what I have until there is major upgrade with PCI.

[Foxie3a]

now who said that? They are incorrect.

If your PCI can't handle it and your on the best P4 motherboard, then how are the other boards supposed to do it?

Your PCI has 133mb/s I beleive of bandwith..that is shared amongst all of the slots though..

since you have a lot of integrated devices on your motherboard your hopefully not running anything else on the PCI slots.

A U320 SCSI hard drive can not get to 320mb/second on anyday..no matter what..

ATA100 isn't at 100mb/s either..not even close. I think that the good SCSI drives are at a constant 80mb/s now..that is under your PCI bandwith still..

Even if what you were told was correct(which it isn't) You would still be able to do a constant 133mb/s..and that is a major improvement along with the decrease in latency from your 9ms seek times, and 40mb/s transfer rates.

[K1ll1nT1m3]

The bandwidth of a 33mhz PCI bus is 133mbs. Some boards have a 66mhz PCI bus that can double that. ( kind of rare though )

You should be able to run 3 SCSI drives on a PCI card with out a bottle neck. ( depends on which ones you get )

Edit: Most drives ( SATA or PATA ) are around 40 to 50mbs. When a HDD says its ATA100, that just means someday it could possibly do that. Most drives ( other than SCSI ) right now, are no ware near that though.

[#18]

How is this (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?description=22-151-018) one? Isn't it the fastest SCSI? One review looks like someone posted under the wrong item?


umm, I have never used any SCSI. Not sure which SCSI card I should use. Recommend a worthy card for me, please?

[Foxie3a]

yes, as I stated before... even the best of the SCSI drives are at a constant 80mb/s..

of course burst speeds can get higher than that.

And when it says ATA100 that just means that the controller, or techology can be that fast..the device such as Hard drives in this case is the problem..we just can't make ones that fast..

Its probably not the problem that we can't find enough information to shove back and forth..the problem is that we can't get to it fast enough..they only spin so fast..

[Xaotic]

The Fujitsu MAS series is a little faster than that one, but get whichever makes you more comfortable. Try to find a retail drive to get the 5 year warranty coverage. Watch out for SCA or 80 pin drives, you'll need a SCA adapter for them to adapt to 68pin cables. If you'll only be running a couple of drives, get a U160 controller. U320 is an interface specification and is not necessary on either a standard PCI bus or for a couple of drives. The LSIU160 is a good entry level single channel controller and can usually be found for 40-50 bare. Get a drive, that controller and a good cable and terminator and you'll be set. Make sure that you lock the PCI bus as many SCSI controllers are sensitive to PCI frequencies being out of spec.

[Foxie3a]

I have that controller..but I havn't used it yet..lol

and yes, it is a VERY good idea to get the 5 year warrenty because HDs break SOO fast.. especailly when they're spinning a 15,000 times per minute.

[#18]

Originally posted by Xaotic
The Fujitsu MAS series is a little faster than that one, but get whichever makes you more comfortable. Try to find a retail drive to get the 5 year warranty coverage. Watch out for SCA or 80 pin drives, you'll need a SCA adapter for them to adapt to 68pin cables. If you'll only be running a couple of drives, get a U160 controller. U320 is an interface specification and is not necessary on either a standard PCI bus or for a couple of drives. The LSIU160 is a good entry level single channel controller and can usually be found for 40-50 bare. Get a drive, that controller and a good cable and terminator and you'll be set. Make sure that you lock the PCI bus as many SCSI controllers are sensitive to PCI frequencies being out of spec.

what about this FUJITSU (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?description=22-116-140), or this Maxtor (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?description=22-151-019)?

They both are 68 pin which match the cables. Both have 5 years manufacturer warranty, both have all the same details expect Maxtor has 3.2ms seek time, FUJITSU has 3.3ms seek time. Does it make Maxtor a little faster?

Should I fall for the 0.1ms seek time? lol

Correct me if I am wrong, I judged the speed of drives on seek time, RPM, cache and data transfer. These two drives are the fastest on newegg according to these details. Am I right?

If I go with the FUJITSU one above, then could you please link me the best products for the rest parts I need on newegg? I am a little confused :).

I plan to use only 1 SCSI for running the OS and all the programs, include all the games. I'll still use my IDE drives to store all my other data.

[Xaotic]

Here's a direct comparison from Storagereview.com:

http://www.storagereview.com/php/benchmark/compare_rtg_2001.php?typeID=10&testbedID=3&osID=4&raidconfigID=1&numDrives=1&devID_0=237&devID_1=232&devCnt=2

Close enough that you'll probably never be able to tell the difference outside a benchmark, but the Maxtor is quieter.

Family just got home, I'll look for product links later.

[Xaotic]

Controller: LSIU160 entry level single channel SCSI U160

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=1&submit=Go&description=N82E16816118009

Drive, either of the above.

Their cables and terminators are located here, but out of stock on the cables.

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=1&submit=Go&description=SCSI%2CTerminator

I've used cableclub.com for SCSI cables in the past with no problems, but people find their shipping information misleading. Shipping is high but the products and item prices are good.

[Foxie3a]

I'd go with the Maxtor.

[#18]

Originally posted by Xaotic
Controller: LSIU160 entry level single channel SCSI U160

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=1&submit=Go&description=N82E16816118009

Drive, either of the above.

Their cables and terminators are located here, but out of stock on the cables.

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?DEPA=1&submit=Go&description=SCSI%2CTerminator

I've used cableclub.com for SCSI cables in the past with no problems, but people find their shipping information misleading. Shipping is high but the products and item prices are good.

Are you sure a $38 SCSI card is good enough for a $279 SCSI drive? I just want to make sure, Ultra160 card is enough for a Ultra320 drive?

Umm, I see there is cable in stock :). Or maybe they weren't when you were checking?

cable (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?description=12-119-111)
Is it the cable I need?

I only need 1 terminator since I will only have one SCSI drive at this moment, right? How this (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?description=12-119-110) one?

========================================
ok I want to check one more time about all the stuff I need.

Count to 4 devices??

1. SCSI drive (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?description=22-151-019)

2. SCSI card (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?description=16-118-009)

3. Terminator (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?description=12-119-110)

4. cable (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?description=12-119-111)

Total 4 devices. Am I missing anything or picked wrong stuff? :)

Oh one more thing, I heard SCSI runs really hot. This hard disk cooler (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?description=35-888-105) should fit right on it?

[kusojiji]

I tested an Adaptec 39320d-r with two 15k.3 Seagates in a raid 0 configuration on a Gigabyte 8IHXP (133mB/s pci) and a Supermicro P4DCE+ (533mB/s). Sandra reported 70K for the 8IHXP and 94K for the P4DCE+.

As for cables, you should use U320 certified cables for U320 drives. There is a difference. I had a severe drop in different freqs using U160 cables. Also, there is a difference between U160 and U320 besides the bandwidth.

You can see it at this site: http://www.adaptec.com/worldwide/product/markeditorial.html?prodkey=ultra320_whitepaper

[kusojiji]

As for heat, scsi drives generally run hotter than ide. 15k drives hotter than 10k. It is recommended that the drives are cooled by some means. Either running a heatsink with a fan or just running air over it.

A big advantage that scsi has over ide is that the scsi device disconnects from the controller, meaning that the controller can go on to other assignments instead of waiting for the hard drive to send the data after it has found it. Results: better multi-threading/multi-tasking. Real world: surfing the internet while crunching a movie.

The plan to use scsi for the os and ide for storage is good. That's what I do because of the price and size difference. There is also a device called the scsi to ide bridge. It allows throwing a big/cheap ide drive onto a scsi bus. It doesn't work as well as a scsi drive, but it works. It is expensive though, about 80 bucks. But, it and a big ide drive are still cheaper than a big scsi drive.

[Xaotic]

They have updated stock. They were out earlier.

Yes, a 38.00 adapter is fine. I run a 10K 146 on one since one of the onboard channels on the mainboard went out. The LSI is a good product and the Adaptecs seem to be overrated and overpriced to me.

I use a variety of ducts, fans and cooled SCA cages for cooling. As long as they have airflow. I haven't ever used individual HDD coolers, but they should be fine. After you hook it up and get it running, use speedfan to check SMART data and temps.

[Foxie3a]

if your going to spend that much money though, you might as well get an Adaptec.

And with that SCSI card your only getting the advantages of U160, not U320.

If your spending that much on a drive, you might as well get the best stuff.

As for the controller's performance, I don't think that there is too big of a difference between LSI's lowest model and Adaptec's lowest model..but once you get into the good stuff Adaptec is good. You might as well get them..

My LSI card has a few imperfections on the PCB which made me mad cause it is a U160 afterall..

[#18]

Are you talking about Adeptec (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?description=16-103-133)?

How is this one? It says "64bit 133MHZ PCI X", will it work on the mobo I have in my sig? This Adeptec is only for raid right? I wasn't planning to use SCSI raid yet. If I only use one SCSI drive, I shouldn't get it?

[Foxie3a]

you do'nt have PCI X and I don't think that it is backwards compatible..but start a new thread asking about that to makesure.

[kusojiji]

The 29320 card should work. It should be backward compatible with pci33 as my 39320d-r is. you can verify this with an email to adaptec or look at their faq site.

[Xaotic]

The point is unless you will be adding enough drives to the bus to saturate the bandwidth, the extra money just isn't worth it. Additionally, unless he's planning to go to a board with PCI-X, there's simply no point in spending the money for at most a theoretical advantage. PCI-X slots are backwards compatible with lower speed cards. It will limit the maximum bus speed. PCI-X cards are mostly backwards compatible.

Bottom line is unless you'll be moving to a platform with a faster PCI bus, there's no reason to pay the premium for U320, as the PCI bus will saturate at 133MB/s for all cards attached. Additionally a single drive will max out at about 80MB/s, unless you're adding more than a couple there's no point in adding more or faster channels. Unless you are wanting to go RAID-1 or 5, I wouldn't recommend SCSI RAID. SATA RAID is usually faster due to the use of the much faster CPU and higher available memory for processing stripe calculations.

[Foxie3a]

I'm not saying to go with an Adaptec PCI X card, just an Adaptec since he's spending so much on the HD, u might as well go for the better card.

[kusojiji]

Going by personal experience, SATA raid does not beat U320 raid, both in raid 0 arrays. That's with the raptor 10k drives on the ICH5R vs 15K.3s on a 39320D-R. Also, SATA can only support one drive per channel. U320 - 15 drives. I have a two drive raid 0 on channel 0 and a four drive raid 0 on channel 1. This card allows for both channels to be external, so I have the noisy drives in a separate case that has a big enough power supply to adequately power these hungry drives.

Yeah, sure it is much more expensive. I got my cards on ebay for about 180 each (got 3 of them) and the drives are coming down.

As for getting a pci-x card, I can't get it any other way or I would have opted for the pci33 or pci64 card to save money but these cards are offered only in pci-x (except for the card that is in my server).