Networking oddity

[scotsdale007]

Here is my networking problem of late.
I have 3 Win98SE machines at work that have been networked together since April and everything had been working fine until I added a wireless access point to the system. After doing that all 3 machines quit seeing each other in Network Neighborhood including themselves. I could still ping from machine to machine fine, I can search for them by name and add a shortcut to the desktop and access the shared folders fine and print to shared printers. I removed the wireless access point and plugged everything back into the 4-port Internet router our ISP provides but the problem is still here. I have powered everything down and restarted the router with no luck. Of the 3 machines PC1 is set as the Browse Master in the network properties and is booted first. PC2 and PC3 have the Browse Master option set at automatic. All are set to use 192.168.1.xxx and a subnet mask of 255.255.255.0. TCP/IP is the only protocol used. All have a shared folder with share level access. The router is a Network Everywhere (Linksys) NR041 and all settings are the same as when it worked. The wireless router is a Netgear MR814, which is now at home on a network with 2 Win Xp, 1 WIN98 and 1 Lindows 4.0 machine and that network works just fine. Any ideas?

[lanman31337]

Do they all have the same workgroup name, and all they all connecting to the same SSID for the wireless router?

[scotsdale007]

All have the same workgroup name and the wireless is no longer in the network. I'm sure there is a simple answer that I have overlooked.

[su root]

Sounds like something odd was going on with the browser master.

Were the desktops on the wireless network, or were they wired? If they were wired, they were all plugged into the same wireless router, right? Try using different ports on the router... I'm thinking you might have plugged the pcs into "uplink" "port 1-shared with uplink" and "port 2"... which would cripple almost all of them.

[scotsdale007]

Before the problem started they were all 3 were wired back to the 4 port switch our ISP provides. The 4th port was connected to a UNIX box that runs our Point of Sale software and has to communicate with one of the PC's for employess to clock in and out with. When the problem started was when 2 of the PC's and the UNIX box were hooked/wired to the new wireless router. The wireless router then was wired to the uplink port of the switch and the remaining PC was left connected to the switch. At that point I could still get to the Internet on all the PC's and use each others printers ping each other but not see each other in the Neighborhood. Removed the wireless and went back to the the original setup. The wireless was added for an upcoming 4th PC that was too difficult to wire so there was never any activity over the wireless portion.

[su root]

The only thing I can suggest is that you plug it back in the way you had it, and disable all the functionality of the wireless router: DHCP server, wireless, everything. See if it works then (because it should just be acting like a switch). If it works, start turning on the features you need one at a time until it stops working.

[scotsdale007]

The wireless router is gone and everything is set back the way it was. Hard to believe a hardware change made such a mess.

[aggies92]

You say it is working now that you have everything back the way it was, or not? You may have to wait a while after you hook it all back up for the PCs to sort out who is gonna be the master browser. Usually 15 minutes is enough, but who knows....

I can tell you that I have been fighting this problem for quite some time. I have had to map drives in order to have consistent access between PCs because Network Neighborhood just doesn't seem to be cutting it.

[scotsdale007]

I have it back the way it was but nothing shows up in Network Neighborhood. If I got Start > Find > Computer and type in a name or IP i can get to the machine and then add a shortcut to the desktop. Other than not showing up in NN everything works fine.

[coin]

one possiblity is that somehow NETBEUI has been switched off for the Win98 boxes. They would still be able to network by IP but NN relies on name resolution through NETBEUI

[scotsdale007]

How would they work all this time without NETBEUI?

[coin]

it may be that when the wireless router was added it switched off NETBEUI on the 98boxes as it is now consdered a legacy protocol

[scotsdale007]

I know NETBEUI was never installed before and it worked. I installed it on 2 of the 3 machines this morning and now they see themselves and each other. :)

Will do the 3rd machine when it is avaliable later today and let you know. Now heres a good one, my dad has a Win98 network at his office that has been up for about 3 years with no NETBEUI.

[twump]

without netbeui win98 machines shouldn't see eachother in network neighborhood at all. the workgroup you assign your comps is for connecting comps in a netbeui network. in a tcp network none of the comps need a workgroup name because they run strictly off ip addresses not names. with netbeui the workgroup and computer name take the place of the ip and subnet sorta. what i'm wondering is how you were able to see the comps in network neighborhood without having netbeui installed in the first place. with a strictly tcp network there are no names to be seen in Net neighborhood just ip addresses.

netbeui= named network
tcp=numbered network


installing netbeui should solve your problems. after installing it on all 3 comps try reinstalling the WAP and see how it works. if it stops working again then the WAP is definately having a conflict with the netbeui side of the network. playing with the WAP settings should resolve the issue if it occurs again

i hope this is making some sense its 6:30am and i've been up all night so please forgive if this seems a bit incoherant.

i'll try to add more when i'm a bit more rested

[scotsdale007]

Ok, NETBEUI is now on all machines and all thinks are back to normal.

If NETBEUI is required then how does Win XP do it by names. The reason I ask is the network at home is 2 winxp, 1 win98 with TCP/IP only and 1 Linux box. They all show up in Network Neighborhood on the 98 machine and in My Network on the XP machines. Ahh man, now my brain is starting to hurt. I guess if it works don't worry about it. Thanks for all the help everyone.

[coin]

NETBEUI is still installed as standard on XP but there is a tendancy to use WINS and hostfiles more these days.

[scotsdale007]

I thought I read somewhere that NETBEUI was no longer included in windows and you had to download it for XP.

[coin]

still in the options for my network connections, although I can't remember if I added it after install or not :rolleyes:

[scotsdale007]

I'll check when I get home and see. Are you using Pro or Home?

[coin]

pro

[scotsdale007]

I've got Home...at home.

[su root]

I think you guys mean NetBIOS.

NetBEUI is just another protocol. NetBIOS is what windows uses for naming, and can be found in your Connection Properties/TCPIP Properties/Advanced/WINS tab.

It's very possible that for some reason the Wireless Router disabled NetBIOS on all of the PCs, or atleast on your forced browser master, which would have killed Network Neighborhood.

[scotsdale007]

NetBIOS is checked on all machines but grayed out. I'm sure there is probably a fix in the registry somewhere. That was one of the things I wanted to check on my XP machine at home. I thought I remembered a enable NeBIOS over TCP/IP setting in the network.

[scotsdale007]

At home now and here is no NetBEUI on my XP home machines nor is ther an option to install it. There is NetBIOS over TCP/IP option in the advanced section in networking. It's apparent that the router did something to the NetBIOS on the Win 98 machines at work but using NetBEUI seems to be a workaround for it.

[lanman31337]

It's NetBIOS, or Network Basic Input/Output System. That's what allows you to search each computer by name rather than IP. Netbios runs on ports 135-139. NetBEUI isn't with the XP package.

[twump]

winxp doesn't have netbeui installed by default. microsoft is trying to faze it out because its a very insecure protocol. winxp i beleive uses "netbios over tcp" which basically means the comp does everything like netbeui is installed except it sends out over the tcp protocol. therefor allowing a naming scheme but still using ips and simply connecting a name to an ip.


the winxp cd does have netbeui on it for people who still want to use it, but it doesn't get installed automatically or have any references in xp.though i will tell you this trying to network a xp machine with an older os using its protocols can drive any IT insane. xp trys taking control of the ENTIRE network and makes changes to client comps. by installing netbeui off the cd you take a 2-3 hour job of installation/troublehooting down to a 5 minute talk of just installing the protocol and naming the comps. i have yet to get xp's netbios over tcp to work with an older os properly. if i want to see names in net neighborhood i always install netbeui
to avoid unneeded hassles.here is a link to MS's instructions on installing netbeui on an xp machine.
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;301041

su root i did mean netbeui. i was differentiating the 2 seperate style of network. netbeui uses name tcp uses numbers. i know netbeui is just a protocol but so it tcp. i was doing my best to keep it understandable(don't know how well i did) without adding more info that may be confusing.

[camfortner]

I believe i had to install NetBeui on my Winxp Pro comp because my sister's win98 comp could not connect to any shared folders on my computer. Win98 is crap, and i eventually upgraded her machine to XP.

Although i have no use for NetBeUi. i still leave it installed in case i go to a LAN and share files with win9x users.

[su root]

Now that the newer OSes don't have it, NetBEUI is practically useless. In the old days, it was a great protocol. It's non-routable, so if you didn't want your traffic to accidentally leak out onto the internet, or anywhere it shouldn't go, use NetBEUI. It also had a lot less overhead than TCP/IP, so faster speeds. Too bad it's not considered "secure" by Microsoft.