Will solder hold two peices of copper together?

[sandman001]

Or should I try to make a gasket fit?

[DaWiper]

It might hold...
Plumbers do use a sort of soldering iron to solder copper pipes togheter.
You need a 'high' power iron.

[sandman001]

Can you explain any more?

[Joe Camel]

if you do, clamp the copper together TIGHT! you dont want any solder to get between them (i bet) where /what is this copper joint?

[sandman001]

It's going to be the fin of a 1U heatsink, and a copper plate.

I'm making a custom GPU block out of a 1U copper heatsink. I was thinking along the lines of putting the solder between the two, clamping them, then heating the whole thing up on the stove or something, then sanding it smooth.

But, I'm not sure if the solder would adhere to them very well.

[The Spyder]

How do you think the maze 1 and 2 were put together?
It is quite easy, heck you can do it on your stove!
And since when do plumbers use Irons for putting pipes together. In my 5yrs of house construction I have not ONCE seen a plumber use a soldering Iron. They always use a MAPP gas tourche.
Just heat the bottom copper, apply flux to where you want the solder to stick and apply solder to flux ontop of copper. Let the solder cool, set the top on to the block, clamp it down and reheat.
Thats how ive done 4-5 blocks.

[sandman001]

I'll do that then, will any type of solder work? How much would I need?

Thanks.

[The Spyder]

Go to home depot, grab a roll of 50/50 plumbing solder (or 10/90 if you want lead free) and grab a thing of flux. You should only need a ft or so, but for the $10 a roll its not bad.

Will solder hold two peices of copper together. HA :D Sorry, but this is just to funny for me.

[sandman001]

I mean, how much will I need like on the two peices of copper?

And would this stuff I have now work, it's really fine stuff used for Vmods?

[The Spyder]

Ok.
Basicly you want to have a nice covering, almost a little "puddle" so that when you put it together it will fill in any gaps and ooozze out the excess.
No you can not use the fine stuff, sorry. It really should be a plumber solder, or a silver solder if you can get it. Silver solder requires more heat however. You also need a seperate FLUX (the standard electronics solder generaly have flux mixed in, but this flux is not meant for the high temps and large area). The flux is really the key, the solder only sticks to where you apply the flux.
(Example: If I had a copper sheet, a wrote a M on it with flux and then flooded the copper sheet with solder, and then let the rest drain off, it would only stick to the M.)
I would try some test peices so you get a hand of it.

[MoreGooder]

Make sure you polish the copper surfaces that are to be soldered together because copper tarnish will impact your joint. Just ask a plumber at Home Depot! Use sand paper, then rinse off, then let COMPLETELY dry because water will seriously impact your success during this soldering process. Plumbers actually push pieces of bread down into existing water lines when installing new faucets and such so that water doesn't trickle down into their joint. Then, they just turn the water on when done, forcing the bread to be expelled.

Of course, I'm not recommending that you stuff bread in your water cooling system ;) Just make sure it's is BONE DRY prior to solding, and shiny shiny shiny copper on both pieces where you are solding.

Hope that helps.

[sandman001]

That does, I didn't know it had to be that clean.

Should I rinse it off in water? or like isopropyl alcohol?

[The Spyder]

You dont need to wash it, and keep it as FAR away from water as you can until its soldered. Just sand it, flux it and solder it. If you are wored about sanding dust, use a can of compresed air. If you really wanted to, use isopropyl alcohol, then make sure its completly dry.

[simpleman]

Originally posted by The Spyder
How do you think the maze 1 and 2 were put together?
It is quite easy, heck you can do it on your stove!
And since when do plumbers use Irons for putting pipes together. In my 5yrs of house construction I have not ONCE seen a plumber use a soldering Iron. They always use a MAPP gas tourche.
Just heat the bottom copper, apply flux to where you want the solder to stick and apply solder to flux ontop of copper. Let the solder cool, set the top on to the block, clamp it down and reheat.
Thats how ive done 4-5 blocks.

that right there has the whole subject covered

[MoreGooder]

Originally posted by The Spyder
You dont need to wash it, and keep it as FAR away from water as you can until its soldered. Just sand it, flux it and solder it. If you are wored about sanding dust, use a can of compresed air. If you really wanted to, use isopropyl alcohol, then make sure its completly dry.

Better advice!

[Graystar]

Originally posted by sandman001
Will solder hold two peices of copper together?
It certainly will. I solder my water blocks together.

You can barely see it, but there are two solder joints on the base. The base is actually three sheets of copper soldered together.

Here's how I soldered it. I used a C clamp to clamp one tube against the bottom plate. To picture it, imagine clamping the tube on its ends, then slip a copper plate under one end. Anyways, the other two sheets and the other tube are just being held in place by gravity. I put the C clamp in a small portable bench vise to hold it for soldering.

Next I spread small amounts of flux on the areas to be soldered; the tubes and around the edges of the base. A little bit goes a long way here. Then, I fire up the small handheld torch, heat up the copper until the solder melts, at which point it gets sucked into the joints.

Tools for soldering are simple:
Bernzomatic ST1000TS Micro Torch (25 bucks at Home Depot)
Bernzomatic Plumbers' kit (just a 3-in-1 package containing solder, flux, and a brush; 5 bucks I think)

That's all you need!

http://home.nyc.rr.com/graystar/whatblocktb.jpg

[sandman001]

Would a normal propane torch work fine?

Then I'll assume you sand it to get off the burnt/oxidized/whatever copper?

[The Spyder]

What do you mean by normal? A gas tourche generaly will work great, and then yes a sanding it will remove the tarnish caused by the heat.

[sandman001]

I'm not really sure what to call it.

It's about as long as my forearm and hand, has a blue flame, and I think was pretty cheap.

It's all self contained, but seems to me it would get it pretty damn hot.

[Graystar]

Originally posted by sandman001
It's about as long as my forearm and hand, has a blue flame, and I think was pretty cheap.

It's all self contained, but seems to me it would get it pretty damn hot.
That will work fine but I personally find those a bit hard to control for precise soldering.

[JFettig]

You do not need to clamp it, its a good idea.

Here is how I do it. weather using a stove or torch.

I sand the mating surfaces flat, rinse and dry.
Flux the mating surfaces.
Either set on stove or other surface for torching.(dont use a stove to torch on)
Stick the peices together, tightly and properly aligned.
Heat with either torch or stove, be sure to heat the copper, and evenly. You shouldnt heat the joint.

Heat untill the solder will melt on the copper and touch it to the joint, It will soak all the way around the peice, add more around the area untill it starts to bulge.

Let it cool, sand/file untill satisfied.

Just dont forget to leak test.

Jon

[sandman001]

Alright, I think I have what I'm going to do.

Now, hopefully I don't screw it up too bad.

[VballCoach]

I know what you are going thru sandman but once you
get going with your Propane torch, you'll get better and better
at soldering. I had my friend solder my first block together with his Mapp torch. Then I ended up doing my next 3 blocks myself..couldn't keep asking him to solder, re-solder, solder...
It's not hard at all. I just did what JFettig has done. No clamps
here. I just let the weight of the top compress onto the base. If
you're soldering on barbs it can get a little tricky. Solder the top and bottom then add each barb. I let my base cool then added 1 barb at a time, heating the barb and barb hole evenly until the solder 'walked' all the way around the barb seat. Good luck!!

VBallCoach

[eobard]

Very nice thread. When it stops being -5,000°c here and I can open the windows I plan on taking the plunge into stove-top soldering, this is a nice prepratory read. :thup:

[sandman001]

Thanks guys, it's been helpful for me too eobard.

[Graystar]

Here's something I found. It's a paste that should make soldering parts easier, especially for the "stovetop" crowd.

It's a paste that you just apply and then heat. I'm gonna get some to try out.

http://www.solder-it.com/solderpaste.asp

[Muku]

the pastes may not stand up in these situations, as they are meant more for electrical. the best and safest solution is plumbing solder/flux. besides, once you get good at it, you'll find you want more stuff to solder together cuz its fun :)

[Graystar]

Originally posted by Muku
the pastes may not stand up in these situations
“May not”?? Shouldn’t you be sure of something before recommending against it? This might turn out to be the best thing ever! But you don't know until you try.

I’d guess that the Solder-It SP-7 paste will work perfectly for our needs. I’m gonna try it and report back.

[JFettig]

I forget who it was who tried the paste, and it sucked horribly. I guess it just doesnt work how it should. Stick with what does work for sure. at least thats what I am doing;)

Jon

[Graystar]

Where's your sense of adventure! :D

[simpleman]

i know for sure that solder / flux ( sweat soldering )
works, i've soldered water pipes for washer dryer, and radiators in car that way and it will hold up to anything

[VballCoach]

I used electrical flux when I added mounting tabs to my gpu block and it worked with silver solder. I put on quite of it too.

[rogerdugans]

One point to stress:
silver solder is best for both strength and probably heat transfer.
Lead is bad. ;)

[Gentleman]

Some problems people should be aware off is that heating up copper will cause it to expand and will tend to warp your WB. This is more true for WB because the copper plates that make up your WC is not uniform. Sodering for pipes and stuff like that is fine because a pipe is uniformly round and expands and contracts evenly on all sides... can you say that abou a WB that has fins or channels in them? Also, the old heatsink that the person wanted to use as the base plate for thi WB... are the fins sodered on? if so, heating it up will loosen these joints.
I think a better and safer way is to bolt the two plates together with some gasket paper and joint goop in between.

[eobard]

Originally posted by rogerdugans
One point to stress:
silver solder is best for both strength and probably heat transfer.
Lead is bad. ;)
How bad, by comparison. Gots any numbers/stats?

[Graystar]

Originally posted by Gentleman
Some problems people should be aware off is that heating up copper will cause it to expand and will tend to warp your WB.
I personally have not had any trouble with warping, and my blocks are made from 19 gauge copper sheet (.043" thick, or 1.09 mm for you metric guys.) I start with a flat sheet and when it's time to flatten the base I have nearly no work to do.

[sandman001]

Gentleman brought up a good point, now I'm slightly worried about the fins being soldered on.

Would JB-weld work? or Arctic Alumina Epoxy?

[Graystar]

Originally posted by sandman001
Gentleman brought up a good point, now I'm slightly worried about the fins being soldered on.

Would JB-weld work? or Arctic Alumina Epoxy?

The heat from a CPU will NOT loosen the joints :rolleyes:

Don't worry about. Right now your main concern is heat transfer, and silver solder will give you the best results in that regard.

[sandman001]

No, about when I heat it all up the solder might melt.

To solder it together, the fins might come off is my concern.

[mrnuke]

silver solder works pretty well, if not brazing always works very well

[Graystar]

Originally posted by mrnuke
silver solder works pretty well, if not brazing always works very well
Now THERE I'd worry about temperature! And those cadmium silver rod can be trouble. Yeah, I know there's the cadmium free stuff, but the cadmium makes it flow sooooo nice! :D

[SunRedRX7]

From BladeRunner's site is pics of his soldered together hardrive cooler and his awesome video card coolers.
http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/projects.asp?request=liquidbarracudaiv&page=3

http://www.zerofanzone.co.uk/projects.asp?request=liquidgf3&page=2

[Graystar]

Originally posted by SunRedRX7
From BladeRunner's site...
Now I want a milling machine :(

[rogerdugans]

Originally posted by eobard

How bad, by comparison. Gots any numbers/stats?

Sorry, no numbers or stats.
The info that silver solder is best is from a couple of old-time plumbers I work with.
Lead-free solder is required for drinking water plumbing but NOT required for heat piping. Both of these guys refuse to use anything else claiming that it flows better, adheres better, holds stronger and will give you a better joint every time.

Having worked with these guys a while and seen their work- I trust them on this.

The part about heat transfer was an educated guess based on silver having excellent heat transfer properties.

[Gentleman]

Kinda weird question but anyone know what will melt first? Copper or silver?

Hey Sandman... i don't think JB-Weld won't work very well because these are fairly smooth plate i assume and JB-Weld needs some roughness to work properly. As for AS epoxy, I am not sure if epoxy will adhere to copper like this.
BTW how wide is the contact surface ( the thickness of the wall that is being sodered to the HS plate)? I ask because if its to thin, the soder might not be strong enough.

Hey if all else fails, use duct tape <(^.^)>

[birdmun]

Silver 961.78 °C 1763.2 °F
Copper 1084.62 °C 1984.32 °F

[Graystar]

Silver will melt first.

[JFettig]

Are the fins of the heatsink soldered on or skived? if they are soldered on you might want to JBweld it, JB will hold up for a long time, but for how long I am not sure at all. No gaurentees.
Some do hold up for a VERY long time, sometimes the epoxy gets soft and can break.

Jon

[sandman001]

Well, I'm not sure, I don't have it yet.

the contact area would be pretty small though.....like maybe 2"x.01"

on three sides, and on the other side it'd be fairly good sized.

[Gentleman]

.01" ?? that's a little over 2mm, thats a little too narrow for a gud bond from soder... too small for surface to surface contact with JB-Weld and expoxy too. You risk the WB bursting from the pressure.

[sandman001]

hmm...I'm thinking about just scrapping this idea until I find something better.

[Graystar]

Actually, .01" is .254 mm. Also, the joint will probably be just fine.

[Gentleman]

Opps sorry.... It is 0.2 mm

Also you mean to tell me that a contact of less than 1mm for surface to surface contact is fine? Umm how long do you like a bond like this will last given a direct outward pressure on it cause my the WB full of water?

[Graystar]

Originally posted by Gentleman
Also you mean to tell me that a contact of less than 1mm for surface to surface contact is fine? Umm how long do you like a bond like this will last given a direct outward pressure on it cause my the WB full of water?
It will last forever against the low pressures that our pumps put out. The biggest pumps we would consider using are only putting out 10PSI or so. The bursting pressure of the copper and the joint are way way above that.

[BladeRunner]

I've used solder construction on all my blocks except the first one I made, (that was alu / copper). To do it well it requires learning the technique. It is easy but still a skill you'd need to practise on some scrap pieces first. I use electrical solder because it contains a flux core and flows easily at fairly low temps. I've not noticed any copper distortion using copper plate of 2mm and above, and 1.5mm seems fine in small pieces.

an explanation of the process can be seen here:-

http://www.zfz.com/projects.asp?request=r300wc&page=5

I'm still refining the process, another thing I've learned is you must have an escape hole, (the block can't be fully sealed, but needs a barb hole or smaller pilot hole if you can't position the barbs until it's soldered). If not the hot gases will expand in the sealed block insides and escape as it cools possibly creating small weep channels in the solder joint.

I've probably made around 30 different custom copper blocks this way, some with 1mm wall thickness, and so far all the copper blocks I've soldered using this method have not leaked or come apart in use.

done well and finished / polished / lacquered the join can be near invisible as shown here.. this block has 2mm base soldered on.

http://www.zfz.com/projects/pc/skee_nb.jpg

In leak testing I use compressed air at between 2 to 4 bar in the block, (1 bar = 14.5 psi)