Mach 1 vs Mach 2

[Vio1]

Whats the difference between the two? I cant find any site that compares them to each other. Is the Mach 2 worth the extra money?

[Vio1]

Why the huge price difference between the models? Is the Mach 2 that much better?

[Vio1]

Since nobody here seems to know or doesnt want to share there knowledge.. i will keep asking MYSELF some questions...

[doc_colton]

I quote from Kit-tronics:

One of the most common questions asked, “Should I get a Mach 1, or Mach 2?”
For some the answer will be determined by their budget. Mach 1 has been discontinued, and to help liquidate them, the manufacture has dropped the price.

Mach 2 has many improvements over Mach 1, which includes the ability to drop your CPU to even colder temperatures, addition of software controls, and over all improved design.

The disadvantage of purchasing a Mach 1 has to do with compatibility. Mach 1 uses the reset to suspend the startup of the system, while the cooling unit drops the CPU to sub-zero temperatures. Many new motherboards using the latest 875P Canterwood and 865PE Springdale are unable to hold the reset signal. As a result the PC starts up right away creating the risk of the CPU overheating.

We are unaware of any compatibility issues with the Mach 2.

[Vio1]

is there a list of which mobos have the rpob holding the reset?

[x-kid]

yea here is the list from nVentiv:

http://www.chip-con.com/index.php?pageid=100

[doc_colton]

It's on the nventiv website:

link (http://www.chip-con.com/index.php?pageid=100)

[Vio1]

Is there any way of modding the Mach 1 so that the reset works on boards that are known to be a prob?

Would you think it better to get a Mach 1 with a new mobo (cause mine is on there problem list), or get a Mach 2?

How much cooler does the Mach 2 work comparing to the Mach 1 ?

[Vio1]

Can someone who has had both (Mach 1 and 2) comment on the differences... worth the upgrade? With the Mach 2 could you push your cpu further?

[oRIDDLERo]

I would like some answers here too... Im sure the mach one could be modded fairly easily to delay the startup signal to Motherboards in question with a timer circuit. Or you could simply separate the 2 units starting mechanisms and manually start the mach 20 seconds or so before starting the computer.

EDIT::: SImple answer to the timer issue. http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/6848

Anyone have an answer or the temp differences though?

[Fushyuguru]

One myth though about the Mach 2 is that it significantly has beeter cooling capacity than a Mach I. This was easily dispelled by Bowman over at XtremeSystems.org. What they did was mount the thermo probe further away from the contact area of the CPU. So it is reading coolant temperatures, not the actual eveaporator temperatures.

Other than that, people love their Mach 2's. The windows inerface is a vast improvement over the "dumber" Mach I. Also they put a much better drier in line as well as other small changes to the cooling loop. They also refined the length of the capilary tube for better efficiency.

Evaporator design is the same, flex shaft is a little more robust.

So basiclly its just like how a car evolves. Do you want the extra improvements or wanna save some money?

EDIT: Oh and most reported a small improvement in overclocks. Probably due to the revision of the capilary tubing. Yields a better capacity for dissipated heat (refridgerant will boil off faster with a a more efficient liquid supply). On average the increased overclock was 0-50mhz.

[OSFP]

What prices are we talking about? could you point any european shops that sell mach1 and mach2?

[Vio1]

http://www.chip-con.com/index.php?pageid=29#europe

[tom10167]

Wow, $600 for what is essentially a better GUI?

[Vio1]

GUI? whats that?

[OSFP]

I cant seem to find any european shop that sells the Mach1....could u give me a direct link?
In local store, mach2 is around 900 euros with VAT and all the extras which is just TOO much...

If mach1 is around 500-600 it would be nice...

[James-Italy]

Originally posted by OSFP
I cant seem to find any european shop that sells the Mach1....could u give me a direct link?
In local store, mach2 is around 900 euros with VAT and all the extras which is just TOO much...

If mach1 is around 500-600 it would be nice...

I've got a Mach I that works perfectly, but I've been thinking about getting the Mach II just because I'm an upgrade junky. I probably haven't done it yet since i don't know what I'd do with the old Mach I.... If you're interested in my old unit let me know. I'm in Milan, Italy and would give you a great price.

[fallguy]

Originally posted by Fushyuguru
One myth though about the Mach 2 is that it significantly has beeter cooling capacity than a Mach I. This was easily dispelled by Bowman over at XtremeSystems.org. What they did was mount the thermo probe further away from the contact area of the CPU. So it is reading coolant temperatures, not the actual eveaporator temperatures.



Except that the temps in people BIOS' read lower, not just thue chip-cons software.

[Fushyuguru]

Originally posted by fallguy


Except that the temps in people BIOS' read lower, not just thue chip-cons software.

I dont own a mach I, I dont own a mach II. What I do know is that Bowman, Gary Lloyd and Oppainter know more about Refridgeration and Phase Change cooling than Chip Con does. Ill take their evaluations before anything someone else says.

One thing thats been pointed out is that the on chip diodes as well as other temperature sensiing equipment used in motherboards, cpu's, even the temp probe in the prometeia evaporator are being used outside of spec. They are thermisters never meant for sub ambient and especially not sub zero measurements. The temp values have been proven to be up to +/-20% with the Prometeia tem probe and up to +/- 40% with the on chip/mobo sensors. Sometimes not even reading values near to true (some have experienced values reading in the -100's when the true reading is above 0 degrees.

Sub zero temps are meant for thermocouples. This is why Bowman developed a varitor trick, to trick the Prommies into reading closer to their actual temps.

Point is, dont trust diodes out of spec. Use a thermocouple and youll find real values.

[Exempt]

I have both, the mach I and II, Tobe honest it seems as if the mach II is just a refined Mach I as if the mach I was a "beta", there is not much temp change, maybe about 10 degrees cooler, which if you ask me is not THAT much cooler for the 600 dollars difference. Although the mach II uses a larger compressor, it is still using R134a as the refrigerant. After performing a R404 mod the temps are further dropped another 10-18 degrees, so in my honest opinion, i would save the extra cash and buy a mach I and perform the mod, to do so, you need an AC guy and it should cost your no more than 150 bucks.

[rbdaniel@bellso]

Hello everyone

I am considring a couple of things to do with my Mach I:

- If I mod the front fan, or add another more powerfull (CFM) fan, would that help it go lower on temps.

- Modding with R404 gas, how difficult is it? Is any AC guy really capable to do the Job? How would the AC person know the prpper
length of the capillary tube? or the proper dryer for it?

Thanks

Daniel Rodriguez

[Fushyuguru]

A higher CFM fan may help very minimally if any (maybe a tenth of a degree or two depending), but it will help your system be more robust and able to handle the loads an R404a mod will put on it.

Capillary tubing lengths are almost trial and error. If you do pay an AC tech to redo the Cap tube to optimize for R404a, it can get expensive real quick. Thats more of a job to be left for when you get your own HVAC equipment and tinker with the system yourself, unless you have a huge wallet.

Any qualified HVAC or MVAC tech who knows enough to get his certs will know how to swap refridgerants. A drier replacement isnt really necissary if this is the first evac and fill. If youre popping the system open alot or if youve cut/spliced the lines, then a new drier may be needed. The biggest thing to stress to the tech is to "fully evacuate the system" the best he can with the time allowed. Optimally you want 3 evacs, the last being at least a couple hours, but I doubt you want to pay a tech to wait around that long. So hell probably do 1-3 quick vacuum pulls.

[Vio1]

is doing the r404 mod with it? What is actually done in the process? Is there any way for it to screw up with the Mach 2? If Im gonna unload $1000 for a Mach 2 i dont want to f$@# it up.

Could someone give me there temps for a Mach 2 before and after the r404 mod (idle/load)

[Fushyuguru]

You might as well save your money and get a mach I if you plan on doing an R404 mod right after getting it.

They will perform almost exactly the same with an R404 mod (the Mach 1 and Mach 2). Considering they are almost identical twins besides the new controller for the Mach 2 and the cheating they did with the temp sensor.

Also, theres not much you can really hurt with these systems, theyre pretty damn robust. As long as you dont leave your system full of moisture or use the wrong refridgerant with the wrong oil.

A Note to the ambitious: If you spend half an hour and learn how to braze, do your own cap tube changes, if you spend and hour or two and $14 on an MVAC cert, you can buy your own R404a, if you pick up an old set of HVAC guages and convert an old compressor into a vacuum pump, you can do all of the charging evac yourself. Makes you feel dumb for ever paying an AC tech do fill your system, or anything for that matter.

[Exempt]

I have a mach I and Mach II unit, I have done R404 mods to both of my units. I first started out by contacting Hipro5, a very known modder who is probably the first person the internet known that performed this mod. After gettting in more and more in depth with a couple AC guys and researching a million times I finally performed the mod on both of them...(well actually my brother in law , one of the AC guys did). There is a need to increase air as the compressors get hotter, Hipro5 recommended 100cfm 120mm fans which I ordered online and they make a HUGE diference as opposed to the 68 cfm SUNON fans that are currently in your mach units. There was no need on EITHER of the units to increase or decrease cap tube length, why ?....I have no clue, im not an AC guy lol, but he got all in depth about why I didnt have to. Performance on the two were greatly , and I mean GREATLY increased and I leave my computers on 24/7 and rarely turn them off. temps on units before after: Mach I P4 2.8@3.9 vcore@1.650 (amazing intel!) BEFORE: idle:-33-35 LOAD: -26-27 (reading off the front of mach unit) AFTER:idle: -51-54 LOAD: -44-46. Now I know that the temps off the front of the mach I & mach II units are not exact due to the placement of the probe, BUT irregardless there is a huge tempurature drop. I had no need to clock the 2.8 any higher than 3.9, I just wanted more cushion stability room. on the mach II temps were enhanced even greater, although the tempurature probe is placed further from the CPU, the temps readout through BIOS and several tempurature monitoring devices/programs show that the mach II is cooling it about 20-28 degrees cooler than the mach I at stock refrigerant R134a, this is due to the fact that they upgraded there compressor to a more heavier, slighty larger Danfoss compressor that can handle a larger heat transference/dissapation. I have read around on a couple sites that said there wasnt much difference in mach I and mach II units. Tempurature wise, the mach II is slightly cooler, but hey in our language slighty could mean an extra 200-300 mhz off a CPU, so it depends on how overclocking crazy you are, and how deep your pockets go. I prefer the Mach II over the mach I for several reasons, 1. it is a much more "solid" product, with the new LCD and software through windows. 2. Offers a slightly larger gain in performance and/or stability to the adept overclocker. 3. uses a much better compressor. 4. slightly more safer and more secure CPu hermaphatic cell structure. After debating to perform the R404 mod to this , here was my results P4 3.0@4.1 vcore@1.7 BEFORE: idle: -45-48 load:-36-39 AFTER idle:-63-66 LOAD -53-55. , on a cold day temps can get much lower, by about 10 degrees lower with the window open :).


So is it worth modding it? sure, if you want a performance increase, BUT remember by the AC guy not draining the system right etc etc you may have some problems. also every compressor performs a little different from the next one, so you have to tweek with it while hes there. You have the chance of ruining your compressor, so unless you have the cash to buy a new mach unit or a new danfoss compressor, then I wouldnt take such a risk.

[Fushyuguru]

A quick note:

Those who know anything about refrdgeration know that the temps stated by the Prommies monitor (and Vapo monitors) is always off by an incredible amount. As an example the boiling point for R404a is around -45deg C, so when you see readings of -53C and -60, it makes you laugh.

It reads this low though because they use a thermistor not rated for sub ambient temps to read sub ambient temps. Its kind of like using a rectal thermometer to see how hot your furnace is, you expect some error there.

Thermocouple readings on a R404 modded Mach 2 will give you around -40 to -45 no load. Given the quality of the fill calibration, the load temps could be all over the range.

[Vio1]

I have my pc on all the time (24/7), would it be safe for me and the system if I left my future Mach 2 on all day and night?

[Fushyuguru]

Originally posted by Vio1
I have my pc on all the time (24/7), would it be safe for me and the system if I left my future Mach 2 on all day and night?

As long as you insulated correctly, thats what these systems are meant for.

[tom10167]

Originally posted by Vio1
GUI? whats that?

Is that sarcasm?

*Confused*

[water_cooler 20]

a quick fix for the mach 1 reset prob is to hook a extra psu to it then turn the psu on then the mach 1 will go on than u turn the pc on and the mach 1 will stay running doring the restart and u shouldn't have any probs just rember to turn it on and off w/ your pc

[Vio1]

I was serious... what does GUI stand for?

[Fushyuguru]

Originally posted by Vio1
I was serious... what does GUI stand for?

Graphical User Interface

[Vio1]

and what is it? is that the same as GPU?

[Fushyuguru]

Originally posted by Vio1
and what is it? is that the same as GPU?

No its a software term. Meaning a graphical software interface to the program itself and in turn the hardware it controls. Your OS is a GUI, internet explorer is a GUI for the internet, ect.

[tom10167]

Sorry, I just wasn't sure, I think Windows 3x was the first program with GUI? Maybe Mac, I wouldn't know,(GUI is pronounced gooey.) but it's basically the difference between dos(text only) and having cute icons and menus all over the place.

[Vio1]

oh, okay. I understand. thnx

[Fushyuguru]

Yes, Mac/Apple had the first mainstream GUI OS.

[@md0Cer]

Isnt this forum a GUI? Becuase technically we all could post messages by editing the mysql database manually :D

[Exempt]

I think it would be that internet explorer is the GUI and were using this forum applet to modify mysql data, lol but maan are we off topic lol