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Giving WW and RBX whiners something else to ponder or cry about.

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Fushyuguru

Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Location
WPAFB, OH
HardOCP just listed a link to a waterblock that looks similar to something that people have been bashing DD and Rokk left and right about.

Ninjalane: Demonic XTC Block

Boys, I think its time to realize that these designs are just a new trend in mainstream watercooling. Just like the move to maze type blocks back in the day. Im sure that someone was whining and crying that they were the first to make a winding channel through their block instead of cross drilling, now its just a new look to an old gripe.

Personally I welcome new additions to the waterblock technological toolbag. Of course I will always recognize who came up with the theory, research and development. Though in the end, if its not patented, then shame on you for opening the door to everyone else to develop a cheaper mousetrap.

Ill come right out and say, nostalgia means nothing to me when buying components. If I have a choice between the "original" mousetrap for X dollars, and company A's mousetrap that kills the same mice with a spring thats a few pounds lighter, but costs half the price? I say screw nostalgia. Thanks for the concept Mr Mousetrap inventor, it works great, especially with company A's price comprimises.

It may be rude, it may be crude, but this is how innovations move forward.

I believe well see alot more microchannel, WW/RBX type of blocks hitting the scene. I say bring em all out, like the Maze designs that have become so popular and the spring loaded mouse trap.

-Matt-
 
HA! lol.

The internals look just like an RBX. I don't know why, but I just can't shake the mental picture of some dude with a set of micrometers measuring every aspect of a block.

I could personaly care less about who coppied who. I'm wondering when somebody is going to release a cup-impingement block.
 
UberBlue said:
HA! lol.

The internals look just like an RBX. I don't know why, but I just can't shake the mental picture of some dude with a set of micrometers measuring every aspect of a block.

I could personaly care less about who coppied who. I'm wondering when somebody is going to release a cup-impingement block.

I definitely agree with you. I would love to see a CPU impingement block!
 
oh man, i can't believe someone would rip off danger den like that. they were the first to come up with that wavy channel design and then someone comes along and uses it and doesn't give danger den any credit? thats low real low. i would never buy anything unless it is from danger den themselves.

j/k but its crazy how similar to the rbx that is. but i agree with you 100%, people shouldn't gripe about the past. its the way the economy works. get over it and reap the benefits of cheaper, higher quality products.
 
UberBlue said:
HA! lol.

The internals look just like an RBX. I don't know why, but I just can't shake the mental picture of some dude with a set of micrometers measuring every aspect of a block.

I could personaly care less about who coppied who. I'm wondering when somebody is going to release a cup-impingement block.

Sorry, I was wrong
what I said was:
Do you realize that Volenti released the cup inpingment block way before cathar hardly started thinking about it?


Jon
 
Last edited:
JFettig said:



Do you realize that Volenti released the cup inpingment block way before cathar hardly started thinking about it?


Jon

Yup. Cathar wasn't the first and won't be the last. Impingement itself is an old concept.

What I really find funny is how manufactures are just now starting to play catchup, and scrambling to do so. It's like watching keystone cops.

Bill Adams reviewed the original White Water just shy of one year ago. It was obvious then that the micro channel design had a clear advantage over more traditional designs. And maufacturers are just now getting around to figuring this out?

My comment on cup-impingement was aimed along the lines of "how long is it going to take them to figure that one out?". I'm talking about a high publicity release by a mainstream manufacturer.

History repeats itself.
 
I wasn't aware of Volenti's cup-impingement work, just his jetted direct-die work, the aspects and lessons of which I drew upon.

JFettig, got a link to that stuff? Volenti and I do communicate (rarely) and I'm sure he would've mentioned it to me by now.
 
UberBlue said:

My comment on cup-impingement was aimed along the lines of "how long is it going to take them to figure that one out?". I'm talking about a high publicity release by a mainstream manufacturer.

History repeats itself.

It will probably happen one day.

The thing is that while they're all investing in micro-channel research that jetted cup impingement will look unattractive from a manufacturing aspect.

Just mashing water down into cups from a single barb inlet opening (like the r0x0rblock) will yield results little better than a Swiftech MCW462. It's near the same deal. Single jetted inlet mashing down on some dimples. In some ways it's worse because the water will have trouble evacuating from the deep holes, but in some ways better due to increased surface area. My guess is about the same.

Doing a mass of cups with just open jets (no tubes) mashing down into the cups will not yield results better than the properly implemented mini/micro-channel blocks that exist today.

Only by doing the direct-injection jet-tubes into the cups can the impingement-only effect really come into its own, but it's the ability to manufacture masses of those jet tubes, small enough, thin enough, long enough, and accurate enough, that's the real PITA. Do it bodgy, and you end up with something that'll be second place behind what they're already making, and they'll give up and say it's pointless.

As long as blocks are perceived as items that need to be sold for less than around $100US, it's going to be very, very hard to profitably make a block like the Cascade without doing charity work.
 
Cathar said:


It will probably happen one day.

The thing is that while they're all investing in micro-channel research that jetted cup impingement will look unattractive from a manufacturing aspect.

Just mashing water down into cups from a single barb inlet opening (like the r0x0rblock) will yield results little better than a Swiftech MCW462. It's near the same deal. Single jetted inlet mashing down on some dimples. In some ways it's worse because the water will have trouble evacuating from the deep holes, but in some ways better due to increased surface area. My guess is about the same.

Doing a mass of cups with just open jets (no tubes) mashing down into the cups will not yield results better than the properly implemented mini/micro-channel blocks that exist today.

Only by doing the direct-injection jet-tubes into the cups can the impingement-only effect really come into its own, but it's the ability to manufacture masses of those jet tubes, small enough, thin enough, long enough, and accurate enough, that's the real PITA. Do it bodgy, and you end up with something that'll be second place behind what they're already making, and they'll give up and say it's pointless.

As long as blocks are perceived as items that need to be sold for less than around $100US, it's going to be very, very hard to profitably make a block like the Cascade without doing charity work.

I undestand entirely what you are saying about the intracacies of the design. Jaydee 116 had a heck of a time trying to get it to work, and AFAIK shelved it. You have a wonderfull insight to it. For instance, I took apart my SS and original Cascade and compared them side by side to see if I could figure out what you had "tweaked" on the SS. I couldn't see anything obviously different. If you can alter a design so it's not perceptable to the eye and realize an actual gain in performance. That's just freakin' amazing.
 
Cathar said:
As long as blocks are perceived as items that need to be sold for less than around $100US, it's going to be very, very hard to profitably make a block like the Cascade without doing charity work.

Thats where I do see the point in buying the "original". If youre shooting for a performance goal thats top shelf, you have to shell out the money for extremely tight specs and manufacturing. the big boys are gonna shave off some accuracy in the name of cost and production speeds.

Though for the majority of us, thats fine and weve been waiting for a more mainstream alternative to these hand made "pininfarina" (ferrari joke) models weve been drooling over for a year.

Also, the way you explained the difference between impingement and channel assisted impingement... It somes so easy to you Cathar.... I hate you :D. Thats why youre the best!
 
pauldenton said:


how much better would a copper cascade incorperating them be?

btw Dtek's whitewaters sell for over $100 (US) here in the UK.... :(

No difference really for the copper blocks with the changes. The changes focus on making use of silver's slightly higher thermal conductivity.

Why not just order the White Water's in from DTek direct? They sell for $49US in the USA, and even with VAT and shipping, I doubt you'd be paying more than $70US (about £38) to get one to you.
 
Cathar said:
*yawn*

Just woke up. You guys are pretty funny. Just what I needed. A good laugh in the morning to start the day!
Oh man, when are people gonna learn? I love this quote:

"To calculate how the C/W rating has changed we will need to factor in the increased processor wattage."

Once a C/W rating is determined, it remains constant (all else being equal) no matter the heatload with the same size die. I still don't understand why people still don't understand that?
 
Cathar said:


Why not just order the White Water's in from DTek direct? They sell for $49US in the USA, and even with VAT and shipping, I doubt you'd be paying more than $70US (about £38) to get one to you.

i plan to shortly :) - i just meant that there's clearly a market for expensive blocks (even if only in "rip-offbritain"....)
 
nikhsub1 said:

Oh man, when are people gonna learn? I love this quote:

"To calculate how the C/W rating has changed we will need to factor in the increased processor wattage."

Once a C/W rating is determined, it remains constant (all else being equal) no matter the heatload with the same size die. I still don't understand why people still don't understand that?

The same reason people read medeocre reviews then take said review as gospel. Some people just don't want to think.
 
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