Good budget chip

[Ashyukun]

Greetings from a relative newbie with what might be a somewhat complex question. After quite a long time of faithful service by my dual PPro 200 box (well, 180s upped to 200), I've finally hit the wall on what I can do with it- it would cost me several hundred dollars to buy the memory necessary for it to even begin to do what I want to with it (just why -does- buffered ECC memory cost so smegging much anyways???), and for that much, I figure I may as well put a newer, more powerful computer together.

I currently essentially have all of the parts necessary for a new box except for the case, RAM, and CPU+heatsink. The motherboard that I have to work with is a Jetway 993AN board with the Via Apollo Pro 133 AGP bios, which has both a socket 370 and a slot 1 for the proc. I realize this isn't even close to the worlds best board in general, much less for O/Cing, but with my unfortunately limited budget, it will have to do.

My dilema is in what processor I would do best to pick up for it. It should be capable of running (at least in theory) most any of the PIII or Celeron chips- according to the manual, it 'conditionally' supports 150 FSB (translation: I'm probably not going to want to quite try that one... ;D ), but does anything from 66 to 133 with a reasonable number of steps in between. I would -like- to O/C whatever I get as much as (or, I suppose I should say 'if'...) I can, but I also don't know whether I'll be able to. So I'm not quite sure about getting a slower chip that might generally O/C over a faster one that might not, but that should be 'guaranteed' to at least run faster at what I'm supposed to be running it at.

The price range that I'm looking on spending on the chip is under about $90 before shipping, which pretty much puts (according to Priceline, at least...) the Celeron 733 as the highest one. I suppose I'm really looking at deciding between the 566/600/633/667/700/733. I'm planning on picking up a Slotkey to be able to adjust the voltages, btw. So (after much probably extraneous information...), what would people opinions and recommendations be as to which of these chips would be best for me? Heavily biased opinions are quite welcome :) I've done lots of looking through the articles and CPU database, and would just like to get some more information from whoever will give it to me. Thanks!

[marty]

After you look at the suggestions here, you can also look at the CPU database which is linked to from the homepage of overclockers.com! This will give you a good idea of what to expect for your overclocking.

I don't have a personal opinion, but I will wager that those who do will suggest a Celeron 600.

[Mr B]

Look at my "sig"....I think you'll know my answer....

The 566 C II is a good one too.

Mr Bbbb

[Ashyukun]

I have looked through the CPU database- that's kind of the source of some of my conflict over what to get. :) The 600/633/667 Celerons (at least by the database) regularly beat out the 700 (there isn't any data on the 733...)- but again, I'm not wholly certain that my MB will even be able to clock whatever I get up very much.

I didn't mention, though I think people could probably figure out that I'm not planning much fancy in the way of cooling- a good heatsink, possibly with an upgraded fan (with 2 overclocked PPros in a case, I know that airflow is your friend...).

Is the 600 really that much better than the 633 and the 667? At least according to the CPU DB, the 633 and 667 have higher average O/Cs (of course, there are a =lot= less listings for the 633 and the 667), and there's only about an $8 difference between the 600 and 667 on Pricewatch.

Thanks!

[Sohryu Asuka Langley]

go for the 667 incase oc'ing doesnt go too good. then at least youll have a slightly faster chip if you dont overclock.

well thats what i think

[Mr B]

The 667 and 700 are not good for o/cing, because of the high multiplier they run at. The 566 and 600 regularly "beat them out", because they have a lower multiplier, with more headroom to work with.

Remember, Celeron 700 = 10.5 x 66 MHz. That multi is at the cap for the CuMine's core. There's a kid in here pushin' 2.3v thru one, and it won't run stable at a gig. With the 10.5 multi, you have to run it at 1050 MHz to get to the FSB of 100, where the PCI bus is back in spec. Under that (950-1000MHz, where the Celeron II core usually runs out) and the PCI bus is going to be seriously out of spec, usually causing all kinds of grief (locking up, data corruption, etc....).

The 667 is just a shade better than the 700, but not much.

Go with a 566 or 600, or a P/// 600E or 700E. You'll have a lot more luck with any of these over the 667 or 700 C II.

Mr B

[Ashyukun]

Mr B (Mar 06, 2001 09:25 p.m.):

Remember, Celeron 700 = 10.5 x 66 MHz. That multi is at the cap for the CuMine's core. There's a kid in here pushin' 2.3v thru one, and it won't run stable at a gig. With the 10.5 multi, you have to run it at 1050 MHz to get to the FSB of 100, where the PCI bus is back in spec.Mr B

True- that's something I tend to forget about, and I suppose with a fairly POS board like I've got, this will -definitely- be a concern. But, along those lines, the 633 should be running at 950 at FSB 100 (9.5 x 100), as opposed to the 600 at 900 at FSB 100 (9.0 x 100). Is the 950 that much harder to get to?

I hope I don't sound like I'm being contradictory or anything- I'm just trying to make sure that I know as much about what I'm getting into as I can before I commit to something (despite the fact that there are so many variables that are unknown- like the MB). :P

[Mr B]

Ashyukun (Mar 06, 2001 09:49 p.m.):
Mr B (Mar 06, 2001 09:25 p.m.):

Remember, Celeron 700 = 10.5 x 66 MHz. That multi is at the cap for the CuMine's core. There's a kid in here pushin' 2.3v thru one, and it won't run stable at a gig. With the 10.5 multi, you have to run it at 1050 MHz to get to the FSB of 100, where the PCI bus is back in spec.Mr B

True- that's something I tend to forget about, and I suppose with a fairly POS board like I've got, this will -definitely- be a concern. But, along those lines, the 633 should be running at 950 at FSB 100 (9.5 x 100), as opposed to the 600 at 900 at FSB 100 (9.0 x 100). Is the 950 that much harder to get to?

I hope I don't sound like I'm being contradictory or anything- I'm just trying to make sure that I know as much about what I'm getting into as I can before I commit to something (despite the fact that there are so many variables that are unknown- like the MB). :P

The 633 is a decent performer, just not as good as the other two I mentioned. Higher multiplier, again.

To get the 600 to 1 GHz, you need to run at 112 FSB, which if I remember right, is 37 or 37.5 MHz PCI bus speed. This is a lot closer to spec than 95 FSB/41 (?) PCI for the 700 (spec is 33 MHz)

The divisors are (in FSB) 66, 100, 133. Everything other is an increase in bandwidth. the closer you get to the next higher, the further out of spec the bus runs at. Your goal is to get to the next divisor. Just over is better than just under, as it keeps the PCI bus closer to where it needs to be.

I had my Celeron briefly at 118 FSB (1062 MHz), but it started all kinds of data corruption because my hdd was so far out of spec. I was able to back off, and re-install Windows without having to format my drive.

This is why the 566 and 600 are a better choice.

Mr B

[Mr B]

I stand corrected on that....

83 MHz FSB = 41 MHz PCI bus, 95 FSB = 31 PCI.

Right church, wrong pew....

Mr B

[batboy]

The Celerons will average about 900-950 MHz with a little better than average cooling. Lots of them will do much better and a few are dogs. I look at it this way. You need to reach 100 fsb and if you can make it to 112, that's perfect. Much more than 112 fsb and you "might" have problems with budget components running too far out of spec. The C-566 and C-600 are the only ones that are fairly assured to reach 100 bus speed without a lot of work and expense. A Celeron 600 is near perfect for what you want, you'll probably hit 900 with it and could even get lucky and hit 1+ gig, maybe. If you want a sure thing with no hassle, then go with the C-566 and overclock it to 850 or more.

[LutaWicasa]

Batboy knows. He's a Big Grasshopper :):):)

[Carmine_Paterno]

Yea, I am the idiot who bought the Celeron II 700. So far, i have successfully got it to 987 with long burn ins with seti and sandra. I am @ 2.2v right now, very stable. I can post up to 1082 now, before i could only post up to 1050. I can boot into windows stable @ 1015, but no games. NOTE: I have a cC0 Celeron II 700, as i know alot of people that i have try to help, have a cB0, they can only get the chips to 840, and post no higher. I think i got lucky with this baby. @ 987 i am running 93fsb. @1015 i am running 96. I am only using air cooling. Soon i will post my setup and you can see what i have to work with.

[Sohryu Asuka Langley]

yup i got a cBo celly700 running 875/83 and the spec is all way way out.. havent had problems of any sort though (standard hsf/vcore)

[Ashyukun]

Okay, I'd say that based on what I've heard so far, it looks like my best bet is going to be the 600. It looks and sounds like a lot of people have had a lot of luck O/Cing it without too much trouble. And, all told, even if I get a complete dog that won't go much above standard, it'll still probably look like it's flying compared to my current PPro box (which, somewhat amusingly given one of the posters in this thread- is named Asuka... :) ). Sometime last week I tried running the POV Chess speed-test on her- it took almost as long to run as a single PPro 200 (though admittedly that computer was running eight times the memory that Asuka has...). I'll probably be -very- happy if I can get the 600 running stable at 100 FSB- 950 will just scream compared to what I'm used to (both at home and, at the moment, here at work. Anyone know how a Ultra 10 stacks up to an O/C'd C600? :p ), and I obviously won't complain if I get lucky and can go higher.

Now, in actually getting one- since I'm likely going to be getting a slightly better than stock HSF for it (I'm leaning towards a GOrb...), and pretty much guaranteed to be pushing it over 'spec', is there any merit at all to getting a 'retail' Celeron as opposed to an OEM one? And would it be your opinion that I should really try and find (and probably pay more for) one that I know is a cC0, or order one and see what I get?

Also, having decided on a processor, and knowing what the likely FSBs that will be the limitations, this brings me to another related question. I had been planning on getting a stick of PC133 CAS2 SDRAM for this system- but, if I'm not likely to be pushing the FSB much over 100, do I really need to get the PC133, or will PC100 likely suffice? I could also probably ask the same question about CAS2/CAS3. And maybe someone here can answer this- what exactly is the deal with the "High Density" memory that shows up when I do a search on Pricewatch? They have rather large disclaimers that it only works on certain MBs, including the Apollo Pro 133A. Does anyone know what the difference between this and 'normal' memory is, and whether it would work on an older Apollo Pro chipset? And whether it is advisable or inadvisable for O/Cing?

Yes, I'm quite full of questions. Thanks for all your help so far!

[zhenya]

Well, I'll try to answer a few of your questions. First, I'll concur with getting a celeron 600, as mine is at 1035 rock stable, and will do 950 at stock voltage. I have a golden orb cooling mine, but will be replacing it soon. It's sufficient, just not great, but I did get it for $8.50 with the chip. I don't see too much reason for ordering a retail one, especially since you're just going to want to toss the heatsink and fan that come with it. Retail versions do have better warranties, but try getting intel to warranty an overclocked chip. Some places advertise that oem warranties are extended to 1 year with the purchase of a good heatsink fan unit. Don't know if there is any truth to that.
I was in the same position as you, and decided just to chance it, and just order one, and I obviously got very lucky. But at least part of my rationale was that it was more fun and adventurous taking a chance with something than buying one that I knew exactly what it would do. I also figured if I really got a bum one, I could easily sell it on ebay for what I paid for it, and try another one. I ended up buying mine from www.allstarshop.com and was very happy.
As for the memory, prices are so low right now that you should really get the best you can justify. 133 is the same price as 100, so why risk it? Buy brand name, Crucial has some really good prices right now from their web site, 15% off and free shipping. I decided to go with Kingston, because I was really short on money, and it was about $20 cheaper. As for the cas 2/3, well, good quality cas 3 will often run at cas2, but I'm sure you'll get lots of opinions on that one. Hope some of this helps!

[batboy]

Here is my personal story about RAM. A few months ago, I decide to sell my good 128 meg stick of PC-100 CAS 2 and buy a stick of 256 meg of either PC-133, PC-150, or Mushkin version 3. Well, the better, faster RAM was way expensive and I thought, I just have a Celeron 566, so PC-133 will be fine, since I'll be running 115 or 120 fsb max. Now I have a P-III running at 150 to 153 fsb in this same rig and my PC-133 RAM fizzes out at those high bus speeds. I have to run the memory bus at the 3/4 divider (thankfully my motherboard can do that). Of course, now I might have to dump my PC-133 and buy something better. Duh!

[marty]

Hey Batboy I'm confused as all get out.

I have the SE6 too. The only choices that I thought that we had for memory were 133 or 100. Is that right or does the memory go up with the FSB??

Or maybe you are talking about a different board.

I want to know as I also have trouble going much above 133FSB and the memory could be what is holding me back.

[batboy]

Marty, I have an early Abit SE6. If you have the SE6 II, there might be slight differences. But...on mine, there are three clock dividers for each bus speed setting. For example, if I choose 140 MHz fsb in the soft menu BIOS, it'll have some numbers follow like (4,3,1). Actually, in this example, there is a second 140 setting that has (4,4,1). The first number is the CPU bus divider, the second number is the memory bus divider, and the third number is the PCI bus divider (the AGP runs at twice the PCI). Here is the goofy confusing part. The CPU bus always runs at the fsb which is a 1:1 ratio, so take that first number and divide all the numbers. So, 140 (4/4,3/4,1/4) and 140 (4/4,4/4,1/4), in this example, the first 140 setting runs the CPU at 140, the memory bus at 105 (3/4 of 140), and the PCI bus at 35 MHz (1/4 of 140). The second 140 setting is the same except the memory bus runs at the full 140. Of course, the higher you run the memory bus, the better the performance, hence the need for excellent RAM. End of lecture class..

[Ashyukun]

Thanks zhenya! That site looks like it stands a good chance of being where I get mine from, after looking around a bit. I can find the C-600 for less elsewhere, but nowhere that also has the GOrg for a reasonable price- so I'd be paying at least twice the shipping. Pity they don't seem to sell Arctic Silver....

I guess I'm still a bit confused as to what exactly the difference that CAS2 and CAS3 make. CAS2 memory just has faster access times? Or does it effect the stability at higher speeds as well?

[marty]

Thanks Batboy,

The reason that I was confused has to do with the fact that most of the time I am booting at 700 MHz and 100 memory speed or 933 and 133 memory speed. Then I adjust to 960 or 980 in Windows with CPUCool. So I rarely boot at memory speeds different than the standard and since the board can apparently keep the memory running at 100 or 300 for all the PIII combos (if you don't pick User Defined for the CPU) I was confused.

Thanks for the refresher course.

[DocClock aka MadClocker]

Like Mr B said, just look at my sig, and you will see my answer, and my recomended parts list

[Sohryu Asuka Langley]

[b]And, all told, even if I get a complete dog that won't go much above standard, it'll still probably look like it's flying compared to my current PPro box (which, somewhat amusingly given one of the posters in this thread- is named Asuka... :) ).

Ne! Hello Ashyu-kun!

[Ashyukun]

Konbanwa, Asuka-san! I should search and see if someone has the nickname 'Minako' to cheer me on in working on getting the parts picked out, since that's what the new computer will be named :p

From what I'm hearing (and some poking around at other threads), it sounds to me like most people's recommendation would be the CAS2 (CL2) memory. Since one of my active goals with this is to keep the price down as much as I can, just how noticeable of a difference is there between the CAS2 and CAS3? If it's not that much of a difference, I may just go with the 3- since all told, it'll fly compared to now (you -don't- want to see what my computer got on SiSandra scores :-D ). All told, the 256MB High Density DIMMs are looking -really- tempting at about $52 shipped. But... I don't want to get the RAM and then have it hold me back from O/Cing @o@

*Ash's brain locks up faster than an uncooled overclocked T-Bird in the Sahara*

[batboy]

Memory is one thing you shouldn't skimp on, but if your budget is super tight, a good stick of PC-133 CAS 3 will be just fine up to at least 133 fsb. CAS 2 is a bit faster and can stand to be overclocked more past spec.

[Ashyukun]

Hmmm. OK- so, since I'm planning on getting a C600, which runs 'normally' at 9X66, the odds are -very- low that I'll be running the FSB at anything over 133 (and even -that- would probably take some seriously kick-ass cooling- that would be 1197Mhz, effectively -twice- what it's 'supposed' to be running at...). With this setup, the CAS2 would just mean the memory would run a bit faster, and not really effect the overclocking ability, correct?

Does anyone have any numbers on how much faster CAS2 is? (on average- I realize it will differ between system..) What does the difference in RAM speed usually show up at? I kind of wonder if I shouldn't get the faster, better RAM if I can manage to afford it, since one of the main things this computer will be used for is non-linear video manipulation (Premiere is your friend....).

[Bartman]

When I bought my Celeron 566 (non cCo) I was upgrading from a 466 that ran 480 max (what a dud).

My MB only has 66/68/75/83/100/112/133 as FSB options.

Only extra case cooling I had was from a slotcooler under my Tnt2 Ultra.

The chip ran 8.5x100 = 850 with default voltage, and I was running it at 8.5x112 = 952mhz with a voltage of only 1.55. Most often you need 1.7+ for the 112 fsb on the 566.

To get it to work @ 850 and 952, I had to change the AGP jumper on my motherboard (Aopen AX6BC) from "auto" to "2/3"... then it worked just fine.

I'd go with the 566 or 600... Both will do 850 no prob (exceptions are alwas around).

[batboy]

CAS 2 RAM is supposed to overclock better than CAS 3 RAM. As for benchmarked speed differences between the two, I don't know. Probably not a great deal. But every little bit adds up to us tweakers. Running the memory bus at a higher speed gives you better memory performance gains.

[Carmine_Paterno]

I bought a stick of 128 PC133 (MIcron) CL3. But it does 140mhz CL2!!! I love this ram!

[marty]

Carmine,

Where did you purchase it? Store or online?

Also, if you run Sandra can you post the results for the memory stick that show the ID?? It comes up under Mainboard Information. I am not sure why but the memory info shows up intermittently when I run Sandra. I just ran it to see what my Micron said and it isn't there. If I can get it to read out later I will post. I think that there is a lot of different Micron memory out there and it likely makes a big difference which you buy.

[Carmine_Paterno]

MICRON 8LSDT1664AG-133B1 1A03EE21
128MB 8X(16Mx8) SDRAM PC133U-333-
542 (CL3 upto 133MHz)(CL2 upto 100MHz)

[Carmine_Paterno]

The character next to the x on the second line was supposed to be a 8 but it put in the guy smoking.

[wild_andy_c]

I know that it's all been said in here in this particular thread, but I have had several cB0 and cC0 celeron 2 600's pass through my hands that have all done at least 927Mhz. But at £63.00 in the UK they're not very cheap to buy. Duron 700 is a budget chip at £45.00.

The problem that sets in then is the cost of a good overclocking board for a Duron - at around £130.00.

Intel is still a cheaper platform to begin with and as you probably already have a mobo to pop your chip in - the cC0 is the chip for you.

[wild_andy_c]

because that's the emoticon produced by a 8 followed directly by a bracket

[Ashyukun]

I know that it's all been said in here in this particular thread, but I have had several cB0 and cC0 celeron 2 600's pass through my hands that have all done at least 927Mhz. But at £63.00 in the UK they're not very cheap to buy. Duron 700 is a budget chip at £45.00.
The problem that sets in then is the cost of a good overclocking board for a Duron - at around £130.00.

Intel is still a cheaper platform to begin with and as you probably already have a mobo to pop your chip in - the cC0 is the chip for you.

You're right- I already have the MoBo for the Intel chip. If cost weren't a consideration, I would be getting a T-bird and a nice board for it- but cost is very much a consideration at the moment, so the Celeron 600 it is. When I was still thinking about getting a PIII instead of a Celeron, I seriously looked at getting a mid-speed T-Bird and a new Mobo, since the T-Bird+Mobo cost only slightly more than the PIII. But, the Celeron is cheaper than the T-Bird (it's looking like ~$70 for an OEM 600, including shipping, though I'm not guaranteed for it to be a cC0, but as someone earlier said, that just makes things more interesting...), and will run on the board I've already got (how well it runs on it remains to be seen...).

-----
Dual PPro 180's at 200. Hey, it's a start! :)

[Ashyukun]

Ooops... I forgot to put the first half of that (from the previous post) in quotes...

-----
Dual PPro 180's at 200- it's better than PPro 180's at 166!

[marty]

My Sandra finally did its memory thing:

Micron 16LSDT 3264AG-13EB1 0B0B4132
256MB 16x(16Mx8 ) SDRAM PC133U-222-
542 (CL3 upto 143 MHz) (CL2 upto 133 MHz)

Whatever all that code means.