Common Pump Flow vs Pressure vs Heat Comparison

[Cathar]

Posted this at OCAU.

http://www.employees.org/~slf/images/pqcurves.gif


Some notes:

*) This post was designed for an Australian audience. Ignore the prices listed unless you want a good laugh about how much us Aussies get ripped off on pump pricing. 1 US dollar = 1.28 Australian dollars.

*) The Danner Mag 3 line is my personal interpretation of a best fit line given the data presented at their website. Their data produces a line that is not even remotely smooth, so I look the liberty to smooth it out somewhat. If anything, I may have overestimated slightly. The in-line heat figure is another approximation drawn from reading about people's experiences. I believe it to be somewhat close.

*) The Swiftech MCP600 in-line heat is another approximation, based on motive pumping power which must be ultimately converted as frictional heat into the water, and some heat from the motor itself.

*) The Johnson pump may be obtained for the price stated from www.depcopump.com. The in-line heat value is an approximation based on my experiences with the Davies-Craig EBP, with both pumps sharings a similar design.

*) The Davies-Craig EBP price quoted is an over-the-counter cash price direct from Davies-Craig. The on-line order price is $201 AUD. (http://www.daviescraig.com.au/newproduct_ebp.asp)

*) The Eheim pumps voltages/frequency is not given as Eheim release correctly spec'ed models for whatever country they are targetted for. This means that so long as you buy the Eheim pump that is correct for your country, you should see the performance stated. The Eheim PQ curves on the literature did not have uniformally placed graph lines. The PQ curves given are based on an interpretation of the graphs using the global min-max scale of the graphs presented, and then following the points on the curve. I believe that this actually eliminates some of the discrepencies with the visual interpretation of the Eheim PQ curves that people have occasionally reported on.

*) The block flow/pressure resistance curves presented are for the blocks themselves only. They do not include additional resistances that may be introduced by a radiator or other heat-transfer device.

[Cathar]

Personally I feel that the big winner here is the Danner Mag-drive Model 3 for mains-powered operation. It has it all over anything else on that chart for price/performance.

For 12V pumps the winners are the Swiftech MCP600 for moderate flow, and the Johnson CM30P7-1 for higher flow-pressure focussed setups.

[Huckleberry]

Regarding the flow vs. pressure curves for the Cascade and Whitewater, where did this data come from? Very cool - I wish more data were available for other more recent blocks.

Of course, one can wish in one hand and **** in the other and see which one fills up first. I'm under no delusion regarding the amount of time and effort required to get this data. To have any of this stuff available is a tribute to the time, effort, and generosity of many willing to share.

[nikhsub1]

Very nice! What about adding the MD-15R for us? There are some (including me) that have picked these pumps up for $60 - $70 if you are patient and look around. Anyway, the chart is a very nice reference tool. I would think the MD-15R would be right between the Johnson and the Danner.

[BigSmokey]

I dont understand these things.

Anyone want to give an example or analogy of what the numbers mean?

Does the intersection of the waterblock and the pump mean anything?

[Cathar]

Originally posted by Huckleberry
Regarding the flow vs. pressure curves for the Cascade and Whitewater, where did this data come from?

WhiteWater data comes from BillA's testing.

Cascade data is from my own testing, cross-verified with another's independent data. The Cascade can be a little strange as depending on how (mis)aligned the middle and base-plates are, the pressure-drop can very slightly.

[Cathar]

Originally posted by nikhsub1
Very nice! What about adding the MD-15R for us? There are some (including me) that have picked these pumps up for $60 - $70 if you are patient and look around. Anyway, the chart is a very nice reference tool. I would think the MD-15R would be right between the Johnson and the Danner.

Updated graph with the USA spec of the Iwaki MD15-R. Press shift+F5 to refresh it.

[Cathar]

BTW - My apologies to those of you who may have color blindness. Someone at OCAU brought that up.

The top two boxes on the right are colored for the two block curves that curve up from the bottom left.

The rest of the boxes start with the highest pressures on the left and go down from there. That way you can match the box/pump position to the curve starting from the left hand side.

[Cathar]

Originally posted by BigSmokey
I dont understand these things.

Anyone want to give an example or analogy of what the numbers mean?

Does the intersection of the waterblock and the pump mean anything?

The lines curving downwards from left to right are the pump PQ (pressure/flow) curves. They plot what flow rate you can expect from the pump against a certain back-pressure. Pressure, here, is presented as meters of a water column (mH2O). If you're unfamiliar with mH2O, then 1mH2O = 1.422PSI. Also 1 US.GPM = 3.7854 LPM, or 1 LPM = 15.85 GPH (note - per hour)

The intersection of the waterblock lines and the pump lines will tell you what flow rate you will get with that block attached to that pump (but no radiator).

[Cathar]

A further aspect to the data to consider is the nominal in-line heat that each pump adds to the cooling loop when running.

This is fairly important. Just because one pump gives higher flow rates doesn't necessarily make it better.

For example, let's compare the Eheim 1048 to the Danner Mag 3.

The Danner Mag 3 is, on average, going to add 16W more heat to the cooling loop.

Let's say we were using a DTek Pro core with a decent fan running at a quiet 7V, and this corresponding radiator setup has an inherent C/W of 0.06, meaning for every watt of heat that enters the water, the water will heat up by 0.06C.

Now with the Mag Drive 3, the water will be 16 x 0.06 = 0.96C warmer than with the Eheim 1048.

With the Mag 3 & the WW, we would expect about an 8.3LPM flow rate (not accounting the radiator). With the Eheim 1048, about a 5.6LPM flow rate.

Now let's look at the White Water flow vs performance chart here:

http://thermal-management-testing.com/WWcwSI.gif

At 5.6LPM, we see a C/W of around 0.183, and at 8.3LPM, a C/W of around 0.173.

i.e. a 0.01C/W difference. Now if the CPU were emitting a real 100W of power, then the extra flow rate of the Danner Mag 3 would mean that it would be 0.01 x 100 = 1C cooler. However, the water is 0.96C warmer due to the extra heat of the Mag 3, therefore all that has really been gain is 0.04C, or basically nothing.

If the CPU was dumping an unrealistic 150W, then it would be about 0.5C cooler with the Mag3.

If the CPU were dumping 100W, but we had a better radiator setup giving a C/W of 0.02, then the CPU would be 0.7C cooler with the Mag 3 over the 1048.

This is why it is quite important to match the radiator setup with a pump.

[UberBlue]

Is this how you spend your vacation? Why don't you go find a nice curvy section of road to throw you motor bike through at high speeds?

Other than that... I was wondering when somebody was going to put something like this together. Nice job. Even if you do discriminate against color blindness. ;)

So with your dual "big arse" rads and 30RZ, how much cooler do you suppose you're running over a MAG 3?

[Cathar]

Originally posted by UberBlue
Is this how you spend your vacation? Why don't you go find a nice curvy section of road to throw you motor bike through at high speeds?



If I still had my bike, that's what I would be doing, believe me. Responsible fatherhood has forced me to give up the two wheels for a little while.

Originally posted by UberBlue

Other than that... I was wondering when somebody was going to put something like this together. Nice job. Even if you do discriminate against color blindness. ;)


On a note about the above, and factoring in a radiator into the equation.

I use Toyota Camry '87-'94 model Nippon-Denso brand heater-cores as radiators. With 1/2" copper tube fittings the core has a pressure drop of around 0.7mH2O at 10LPM.

So the trick here is to plot a curve of Pressure = 0.7 x (Flow / 10)² for the BA radiator.

You then add that curve to the curve for the block and the resulting line is what you'd use.

We can guess at it though. For example, with the Cascade, a Camry-core, and an Eheim 1048, the Cascade intersects the 1048 line at 4.7LPM/1.15mH2O. The pressure drop for the Camry-core at 4.7LPM is 0.7 x (4.7/10)² = 0.15mH2O

Adding the two together we get 1.3mH2O at 4.7LPM

Let's predict 4.5LPM => 1.3 x (4.5 / 4.7)² = 1.2mH2O

We look at the graph and see that the Eheim 1048 does indeed supply pretty close to 4.5LPM at 1.2mH2O, so that would be the predicted flow rate, and indeed this is borne out in reality.

Originally posted by UberBlue

So with your dual "big arse" rads and 30RZ, how much cooler do you suppose you're running over a MAG 3?

I see about 9.8LPM with the Iwaki MD30-RZ, the Cascade and the two Camry-cores ("big arse") in series. If I calculate it, this is what I would expect to see as well, so that's another example of the above data coming into play by matching reality with prediction.

Replacing the Iwaki with a Mag 3, and I'd imagine I'd be seeing down around 6.4LPM through the system. That probably translates to around a 0.01C/W difference at the block. The Iwaki dumps 35W more heat into the system. The radiators, I predict, have a C/W of around 0.02, so for 35W the water is warmer by 0.7C than it would be with the Mag3, for a total CPU gain of just 0.3C.

However, and this is something that can't be predicted with temperatures alone. The Cascade does seem to manage CPU hot-spots better with higher flow rates. By this I mean I've had the 1048 attached to the Cascade, and even though the CPU temperatures were the same at about 2C lower ambient than with the Iwaki, the Iwaki still allowed for a higher overclock, which means that while the overall CPU temperature may remain about the same, the really small-scale temperature hot-spots on the CPU die are being better managed with the brute-force Iwaki. This is a story that raw temperatures alone does not tell.

[slater3333uk]

Cathar i cant see the first pic:( link is broke

Edit: 1000th post!!!:D

Edit: Back now:)

[Cathar]

Originally posted by slater3333uk
Cathar i cant see the first pic:( link is broke

Edit: 1000th post!!!:D

My web host is temporarily down. :(

[felinusz]

The picture is there again :)

This sure is informative - thanks for putting the effort into this Cathar :)

I am still very interested in the theory of "Pump Heat" output - I still don't understand how a 55W Iwaki pump is putting an actual 55W of heat into the water - shouldn't the number be less seeing as how that is the amount the pump *consumes*, and doesn't neccesarily *pollute* (put into the water) ?

posted by Cathar
.....though the CPU temperatures were the same at about 2C lower ambient than with the Iwaki, the Iwaki still allowed for a higher overclock, which means that while the overall CPU temperature may remain about the same, the really small-scale temperature hot-spots on the CPU die are being better managed with the brute-force Iwaki. This is a story that raw temperatures alone does not tell.....

The temperature comparison you made between the Iwaki MD 30 RZ, and the MAG3 is particularly interesting - I find it strange that the Iwaki temperature isn't lower, yet a considerably higher overclock is achievable using it. Although your theory that the Iwaki's brute force helps "smooth out" temperature over the CPU die covers the occurance, it leads me more towards wondering about the value of having a high power consumption/high flow pump VS. a Low power consumption/medium flow pump (the Iwaki MD 30 RZ, vs the Swiftech 600 for example).

Also, how can one (fairly accurately) calculate a Radiator's C/W with any given fan, knowing the specs of both fan and radiator?

[Cathar]

Originally posted by felinusz
I am still very interested in the theory of "Pump Heat" output - I still don't understand how a 55W Iwaki pump is putting an actual 55W of heat into the water - shouldn't the number be less seeing as how that is the amount the pump *consumes*, and doesn't neccesarily *pollute* (put into the water) ?


The MD30-RZ's rated power draw is 80W. The 55W value is derived from observing it heat up a volume of water. The actual value may be a little lower, but not higher. I like to overestimate this value slightly to be conservative about the gains seen from larger pumps. It is well above 40W of heat in any event.

Originally posted by felinusz

The temperature comparison you made between the Iwaki MD 30 RZ, and the MAG3 is particularly interesting - I find it strange that the Iwaki temperature isn't lower, yet a considerably higher overclock is achievable using it. Although your theory that the Iwaki's brute force helps "smooth out" temperature over the CPU die covers the occurance, it leads me more towards wondering about the value of having a high power consumption/high flow pump VS. a Low power consumption/medium flow pump (the Iwaki MD 30 RZ, vs the Swiftech 600 for example).


Indeed. The Iwaki is severe overkill. It'd be good with an evaporative cooling tower setup where water had to be pump up some distance to then free-fall. The evaporative effect would happily handle the heat load of the Iwaki, and it is here that the Iwaki would dominate all other pumps, allowing for a 7' high cooling tower, yet still seeing excellent flow rates where other pumps would be struggling to push any flow at all. This is one of the reasons that I bought the Iwaki, which is its potential for good use in such a scenario.

Evaporative cooling towers and/or oversized radiator setups aside, the Swiftech MCP600 has an extremely attractive set of characteristics. For a single CPU block and a radiator, it's perhaps the single best pump on that list, but its top-end flow rate is a little low. Given some lower restriction blocks, the Johnson CM30P7-1 would be a better choice.

Basically, of all the pumps there, I'd choose the Johnson myself if I wanted a 12VDC pump first, but it is pricey (~$150US), otherwise I'd always choose the Swiftech MCP600 (~$80US).

For a mains powered pump, the Iwaki MD15-R would be the number one choice, but again it is a little pricey (~$150US), otherwise the Mag 3 (~$45US) gets the nod for near unbeatable performance and value for money.

Originally posted by felinusz

Also, how can one (fairly accurately) calculate a Radiator's C/W with any given fan, knowing the specs of both fan and radiator?

Not really possible. Have to measure it. There is an additional factor I left out above though. For heater-core style radiators, higher flow rates does tend to give better cooling performance. So while the Iwaki's and Mag3's may push more heat into the system than a MCP600, the radiators will actually be working slightly more efficiently. For larger pumps, the actual water temperature increase will be slightly less than what is predicted on the basis of the pump's heat. In fact since this improved radiator efficiency applies to the pump + CPU heat it is potentially possible, if the CPU is pretty hot, for water temperatures to actually be lower even after accounting for the pump's extra heat. This is again something which would have to be measured, and may throw a completely different complexion on the benefits of using larger pumps.

[AngryAlpaca]

"For heater-core style radiators, higher flow rates does tend to give better cooling performance." Why doesn't it make a difference with the other kinds? (What ARE the other kinds? [Wait... Are those the ones with the tube wandering through the fins, as compared to all the little holes through which the water can flow?]) So, basically, the Mag 3 is an excellent choice, unless you can't handle the watts?

[MrMOSFET]

Originally posted by Cathar

*) The Johnson pump may be obtained for the price stated from www.depcopump.com. The in-line heat value is an approximation based on my experiences with the Davies-Craig EBP, with both pumps sharings a similar design.


I can't find this pump anywhere at their site...

Also, it would be kind of neat to see the MD-20RLZT on there.

[felinusz]

posted by Cathar
.....The MD30-RZ's rated power draw is 80W. The 55W value is derived from observing it heat up a volume of water. The actual value may be a little lower, but not higher. I like to overestimate this value slightly to be conservative about the gains seen from larger pumps. It is well above 40W of heat in any event.....

Ah my bad - I understand now :)

In a larger circuit, using multiple waterblocks, and several radiators, I guess a high flow (overkill) pump with a high power draw would perform better (due to multiple radiators to help kill pump heat, and a need for a high flow rate) than in a simple CPU block/Radiator setup, where pump heat pollution is more noticeable.

Given that, I am really hoping my CustomSeaLife Velocity Titanium One will prove to measure up pump heat wise, and be useable in a PC watercooling setup. If it doesn't it will be returned :(.

After some testing, as soon as my comparison pump arrives, I guess we will see for sure.

[johan851]

Very interesting data. It's nice to see it all compiled together like this. I'm glad I got a Mag 3! :)

You talked about flow drop through a Big Arse and a Camry core - are those both single pass? I'd kinda be interested in seeing an estimate of flow rate drop with the popular Chevette cores.

[Cyrix_2k]

Cathar,

Could you please put the seltz l20 and l30 on the graph?

Also, how does the D-tek WW perform compared to the LRWB's WW? I wish the you were still making the Cascade when I was ordering the parts for my WC'ing system, so I bought the D-tek WW instead. I just want to make sure that it still performs well.

Thanx for sharing your knowledge with us :D

[Cathar]

Originally posted by MrMOSFET


I can't find this pump anywhere at their site...

Also, it would be kind of neat to see the MD-20RLZT on there.

The Johnson CM30P7-1 can be found at their site here:

http://www.depcopump.com./catalog107/9.pdf

It's the "JS 10-245404-03" model number on that page. Call them up and ask for Dorian Lattore. He is who I've been dealing with. Very nice guy.

The March pumps on that same page are also very nice, but I have no PQ information on them.


Re: the MD-20RLZT, that's sticking a lot of information on one page. You can view the full range of Iwaki PQ curves and specifications here at my site:

http://www.employees.org/~slf/images/md1.gif
http://www.employees.org/~slf/images/md2.gif

[MrMOSFET]

You know what I think we need? General Tips For Purchasing a Custom Waterooling System

I thought I had it all figured out what I was going to get; after reading this post I have realized that we seriously need some form of an optimal approach for designing watercooled systems tailored for individual needs.

Cathar: Why are your Heater Cores in series? Everything I have read at this forum supports parallel heater cores yielding better results.


A) For an optimal design one must consider the following: The less heat the pump puts into the water the less heat has to be removed by the heatercore.

B) But at the sametime flowrate has an impact on cooling performance and usually higher flow/pressure pumps dump more heat into the water.

Now you have to juggle facts A and B with the fact that some systems react to flowrate changes differently.. i.e. a White Water block has a larger performance increase than a Swifty for a given increase in flowrate.

So basically it boils down to this: How does one go about creating a high perfomance cooling solution? How do you balance all of these variables into something that is efficent?

Critique my planned system:

Iwaki MD-30RLZT
2 x Chevette Heater Cores in Parallel (shrouded in Push/Pull config.)
D-Tek WW Poly Top
D-Tek Chipset Cooler in Parallel with GPU Cooler*

* Still looking for GPU Cooler without Aluminum

Here are things I am positive about:

- I do not want any aluminum in my system
- I want the WW CPU Block (Cascade would be better... but I cant get one)
- I want two heater cores.

Now would this system benefit from a different pump? I am not really factoring in the price/performance issue because I want my water cooling system to be somewhat future proof and extendable. The pumps I am considering are:

* MD - 30 RLZT
* MD - 20 RLZT
* Johnson CM30P7-1

Also maybe my planned geometry if faulty?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[Cathar]

Originally posted by Cyrix_2k
Cathar,

Could you please put the seltz l20 and l30 on the graph?


For the L30 - use the Eheim 1250 curve - they are near identical
For the L20 - use the Eheim 1048 curve - they are within 5% of each other.

They are both close enough to be near indistinguishable (flow-rates within a 5% difference) from each other in terms of flow/pressure with some restrictions (waterblock/radiator) attached.

Originally posted by Cyrix_2k

Also, how does the D-tek WW perform compared to the LRWB's WW? I wish the you were still making the Cascade when I was ordering the parts for my WC'ing system, so I bought the D-tek WW instead. I just want to make sure that it still performs well.


So long as the DTek block is lapped well, they should be near identical. This is the issue with mass-production blocks, and it affects both DTek and DangerDen, in that the bases can vary sometimes in flatness. Swiftech and Polarflo are about the only two companies you can trust to have accurately machine-lapped their blocks flat. For the rest, you will probably benefit from a properly conducted hand-lap with 600-grit paper.

[Cathar]

Originally posted by johan851
You talked about flow drop through a Big Arse and a Camry core - are those both single pass? I'd kinda be interested in seeing an estimate of flow rate drop with the popular Chevette cores.

"Big Arse" is the nick-name that got applied to the Camry cores that I use. I started using them at a time when anything much larger than a 5"x5" radiator was considered large.

They are two-pass cores. BillA did have some information somewhere about the pressure drop of the Chevette (Dtek Pro) cores, but I haven't seen it in a while...

[pauldenton]

Originally posted by MrMOSFET

* Still looking for GPU Cooler without Aluminum


this appears to be ally free
http://www.dangerden.com/mall/blocks/gf4&vid.asp
http://www.dangerden.com/images/GF4/geforce4_s.gif

[pauldenton]

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrix_2k

Also, how does the D-tek WW perform compared to the LRWB's WW? I wish the you were still making the Cascade when I was ordering the parts for my WC'ing system, so I bought the D-tek WW instead. I just want to make sure that it still performs well.


So long as the DTek block is lapped well, they should be near identical. This is the issue with mass-production blocks, and it affects both DTek and DangerDen, in that the bases can vary sometimes in flatness. Swiftech and Polarflo are about the only two companies you can trust to have accurately machine-lapped their blocks flat. For the rest, you will probably benefit from a properly conducted hand-lap with 600-grit paper.


will there be any performance differences beteween the ally and poly topped versions?

[felinusz]

Mr. Mosfet, why don't you want any Aluminum tops in circuit? Aluminum used in waterblocks is Anodized, and with enough (15%) corrosion inhibitor Anodized Aluminum isn't a leak threat at all.

Your planned circuit is nearly identical to the one I'm upgrading to, except that I am planning to use three smaller (Black Ice Xtreme) radiators, and (hopefully, depending on my test results on pump heat output) a CustomSeaLife Velocity Titanium One pump. Looks good I guess, although I don't see many people with similar circuits (parallel CPU/GPU,CHIP lines), though it should theoretically work well from what I've been reading/asking here.

(Y SPLITTER BEFORE PUMP) T1 PUMP -> Y SPLITTER -> LINE1, LINE2

LINE1: BIX -> SWIFTECH GPU -> DD Z CHIPSET -> T1 PUMP (Y SPLITTER BEFORE PUMP)

LINE2: Y SPLITTER -> 2 PARALLEL BIX -> Y SPLITTER -> CASCADE CPU -> T1 PUMP (Y SPLITTER BEFORE PUMP)

This is sketchy, being such a large and complicated circuit, and I am positive that several changes (perhaps a different pump for instance) may need to be made in order to get it running at it's highest potential.

[MrMOSFET]

Yeah, I am thinking something like this:

|| = Parallel


MD-30RLZT -> Y -> Heater Core || Heater Core -> Y -> CPU -> Y -> GPU || CHIPSET -> Y -> Back To Pump.

I also might try:

MD-30RLZT ->Heater Core -> Heater Core -> CPU -> Y -> GPU || CHIPSET -> Y -> Back To Pump.

or maybe like you say...

MD-30RLZT -> Y -> Heater Core || Heater Core -> CPU || (GPU -> CHIPSET) -> Y -> Back To Pump.


The other thing... does anyone know the Mean Time Before Failure (MTBF) on any of these pumps? I would assume that would be a very important rating.

[Cathar]

Okay, re-edited the graph with some assistance for the color-impaired, and added the 115VAC/50Hz MD20-RZ.

The new graph replaces the old at the site, so if you can't see the updated information then press <shift>+<F5> to refresh it.

[UberBlue]

Originally posted by MrMOSFET
Yeah, I am thinking something like this:

|| = Parallel


MD-30RLZT -> Y -> Heater Core || Heater Core -> Y -> CPU -> Y -> GPU || CHIPSET -> Y -> Back To Pump.

I also might try:

MD-30RLZT ->Heater Core -> Heater Core -> CPU -> Y -> GPU || CHIPSET -> Y -> Back To Pump.

or maybe like you say...

MD-30RLZT -> Y -> Heater Core || Heater Core -> CPU || (GPU -> CHIPSET) -> Y -> Back To Pump.


The other thing... does anyone know the Mean Time Before Failure (MTBF) on any of these pumps? I would assume that would be a very important rating.

A 30RZ is way way way overkill here in the states with 60Hz power. Cathar uses one because they have 50Hz power in Australia, which reduces the performance of the 30RZ nearly to that of the 20RZ on 60Hz power.

I realize Cathar can be an invaluable pit of information, but this is his thread. Configuration specific questions would be best asked in their own thread.

[Cathar]

Originally posted by UberBlue

I realize Cathar can be an invaluable pit of information, but this is his thread. Configuration specific questions would be best asked in their own thread.

I have to agree. This is not meant to be a "How do I route my personal setup?" thread, which is why I've avoided answering questions that were really not related to the thread's purpose.

[Edward2]

Cathar, do you have the data for the graph in an Excel spreadsheet format? Or do you have equations for the various curves? I would be interested in getting a copy if you do. Thanks.

[Cathar]

Originally posted by Edward2
Cathar, do you have the data for the graph in an Excel spreadsheet format? Or do you have equations for the various curves? I would be interested in getting a copy if you do. Thanks.

Nope. The graph is to scale. 100 pixels to 1mH2O vertically. 20 pixels to 1LPM horizontally though. Graph was drawn up using MS-Paint

[Paxmax]

(YIEKS! Besides that Cathar is a watercooling GOD he's also an elite paint artist!!! fear is in me on every level of my mind!)

[MrMOSFET]

Originally posted by Cathar


Nope. The graph is to scale. 100 pixels to 1mH2O vertically. 20 pixels to 1LPM horizontally though. Graph was drawn up using MS-Paint

Wow...

If you want to send me the raw data I can put it into a matlab plot for you if you wish.

[felinusz]

posted by UberBlue
A 30RZ is way way way overkill here in the states with 60Hz power. Cathar uses one because they have 50Hz power in Australia, which reduces the performance of the 30RZ nearly to that of the 20RZ on 60Hz power.

I realize Cathar can be an invaluable pit of information, but this is his thread. Configuration specific questions would be best asked in their own thread.

So the performance listing in the chart is of the 30 RZ with Australian power (50 hz?)? I see that most of the other pumps are listed at 60 hz - I know the chart is already really crowded, but is it possible to give us Canadians (or Americans) an idea of how the pumps will perform over here against each other, barring the manufacturer's spec sheets?


I have to agree. This is not meant to be a "How do I route my personal setup?" thread, which is why I've avoided answering questions that were really not related to the thread's purpose.

I'm sorry about my OT posting up there. :(

[Cathar]

Originally posted by Paxmax
(YIEKS! Besides that Cathar is a watercooling GOD he's also an elite paint artist!!! fear is in me on every level of my mind!)

LOL - I use Paint to design all my waterblocks too (seriously). My machinists get my plans and often tell me that they are clearer/cleaner and more adequately detailed than most of the stuff that they get from more "professional" clients.

Originally posted by felinusz So the performance listing in the chart is of the 30 RZ with Australian power (50 hz?)? I see that most of the other pumps are listed at 60 hz - I know the chart is already really crowded, but is it possible to give us Canadians (or Americans) an idea of how the pumps will perform over here against each other, barring the manufacturer's spec sheets?


Yes, that's what it says on the chart (50Hz). The US-spec 60Hz MD30-RZ almost appears as a single straight lone on that graph going straight up from 17LPM, with a slight curve at the top.

The White Water would cross it at about 14.5LPM, and the Cascade at about 12.5LPM. Anything above 10LPM is well into the realm of diminishing returns for these blocks. Yes, they'll perform ever so slightly better than at 8-10LPM, but by such a small amount as to be pointless.

I do not recommend choosing a pump that forces more than 10LPM through either the White Water or the Cascade. If you do, you're missing the purpose of the graph. Such is not required for these blocks to perform well. Both are targetted/designed for good operation in the 4-8LPM range, with anything above that typically yielding minimal returns, especially one pump heat is factored into the equation.

If one is thinking about something more than a US-spec 60Hz MD20-RZ, then they are chasing up the wrong path, unless there is some very narrow purpose for doing such (10' high evaporative tower or something).

[felinusz]

.....The White Water would cross it at about 14.5LPM, and the Cascade at about 12.5LPM. Anything above 10LPM is well into the realm of diminishing returns for these blocks. Yes, they'll perform ever so slightly better than at 8-10LPM, but by such a small amount as to be pointless.....

.....If one is thinking about something more than a US-spec 60Hz MD20-RZ, then they are chasing up the wrong path, unless there is some very narrow purpose for doing such (10' high evaporative tower or something).....

Ah. My CustomSeaLife Velocity One that is in the mail is looking more and more like a very bad choice on my part. If I can find a cheap MAG 3 to compare with, I will test it's heat output , otherwise I gues I should simply rethink my choice, and exchange it for something else.

[Cyrix_2k]

Oh, cool. I'd still like to wn a "Cathar block", but at least mine should perform close to your original WW :D Have a nice "vacation" (Uhh, why are you still talking about water cooling all the time. <-- You don't need to answer that)

[nikhsub1]

Originally posted by felinusz


Ah. My CustomSeaLife Velocity One that is in the mail is looking more and more like a very bad choice on my part. If I can find a cheap MAG 3 to compare with, I will test it's heat output , otherwise I gues I should simply rethink my choice, and exchange it for something else.
No way! That pump rocks! So what if your water temps are 1C higher? You would be one of the very few running such a powerful pump. If I had the space, I would be running something rediculous like the MD-70RZT. <------ Not kidding either :D

[felinusz]

Thanks a lot nikhsub1, you just did a great job of making me smile, and feel better ;) :) (I'm not kidding either :))

[UnLoadeD]

Nice thread Cathar. I just got a MD-15R on ebay for $47 (almost got sniped at the end). Gonna use it with my WW you made, along with my Chevy LUV heater core. Looks like a match made in heaven. The WW and MD-15 have a very nice intersection on the graph. I also have a Lytron rad from Hapless, its the 120mm size, but looks very restrictive, I couln't resist it at the price tho. I might use it later for a seperate loop cooling gpu and nb. My unlocked 2500+ has yet to be water cooled but thats all about to change. I can't wait to see what she will actually do. I'll post some updates when I get things going. Also I might do some flowrate testing against my 2 rads just for curiosity's sake.

peace.
unloaded

[Cathar]

If you were using an MD-70RZ, I'd cut the jet hole diameters down to about 0.6x of what they are now. It'd make the entire block about twice as restrictive as what it presently is, but would more than double the jet velocity even after accounting for the extra restriction.

Jet velocity would be around the 15m/s mark, or about 30mph. At this jet nozzle speed the water begins to transition into an inherent super-turbulent state, and you'd see the block perform as well as it can.

[UberBlue]

Originally posted by Cathar
If you were using an MD-70RZ, I'd cut the jet hole diameters down to about 0.6x of what they are now. It'd make the entire block about twice as restrictive as what it presently is, but would more than double the jet velocity even after accounting for the extra restriction.

Jet velocity would be around the 15m/s mark, or about 30mph. At this jet nozzle speed the water begins to transition into an inherent super-turbulent state, and you'd see the block perform as well as it can.

What about metal erosion? Would it be a concern at that velocity?

I bet jets that tiny, with that velocity, would hurt like a MOFO on bare skin.

I've been eyeballing the .008 OD .004 ID hypo tubing and a 3pgm @ 150psi PD pump, and wondering what would happen if you could keep everything together.

[Cathar]

Originally posted by UberBlue


What about metal erosion? Would it be a concern at that velocity?

I bet jets that tiny, with that velocity, would hurt like a MOFO on bare skin.


It sure would, on both points you raised.

[thorilan]

gonna bump this so i can keep track of it and let a few people that havent read it find it