College House, Split Connection!?!

[IceWilly]

Just like you read in the topic i will be moving into a house at school with my college buddies. There will be about 8 of us in the house and i was wondering the best way to split the net conneciton. Most likely it will be a cable connection.

I read the stickied guide but need some situational advice. 8 people is alot to have on one internet connection and I am very concerned about the speed as i am an avid online gamer, and so are a few of the other ppl in the house. We all probably won't be playing online together, maybe just 3 of us, but still this will be a big strain on one connection.

Is it better to use a router? Make a server/hub from an old computer?

Anyone have any good ideas?

thanks

[Cjwinnit]

Router, that way no computer has to be left on. It's a little easier to set up too..

[IceWilly]

What about switches and hubs? are these possible options why/why not..?

[bchur83]

You will want the Router to share the connection, and switches to distribute connectivity to each of the computers. Most routers have at least a 4 port switch in them.

[Huckleberry]

Use a router, and behind that a single 10/100 switch (look for a 12 port) to distribute the connections. For a shared environment and performance, try to stay with Ethernet cable. If you want portability, install a "g" access point and those who want to roam around the apartment/house can do so.

[SniperXX]

I got alot of systems on my cable and speed doesnt seem to drop and pings still are low (I too am an avid gamer). I have had 7 guys all gaming once on one online server from my house on 1 cable modem and we didnt have any probs. If you do (I doubt it) call your ISP and see if they would let you have two modems (they could charge more too)..

[su root]

if you are in a "college town" or a "university town" then your cable speeds will probably suck (due to the number of people that would be on cable).

In a house of 8 people, you want to be careful about your bandwidth.. if people are doing peer to peer, it will eat a lot of your bandwidth, especially if they are not properly configured. With that many people, you need to be careful of online gaming aswell, as you may get too much lag with 8 people doing their own thing on the internet.

The other thing to watch out for is that, depending on who you live with, and what habbits they have on the internet, you could easily clear 50 gigs/month bandwidth usage (possibly incurring extra charges)

[IceWilly]

Use a router, and behind that a single 10/100 switch (look for a 12 port) to distribute the connections.

okay, what does this mean, i thought you put the net connection into the router and from there that splits the connection, whats the switch do?

if you are in a "college town" or a "university town" then your cable speeds will probably suck (due to the number of people that would be on cable).

Well... its "College Park" maryland. Thats the University of Maryland with 25000+ students. Now the majority of those students are on the college T3 network... So i don't know how speeds will be for us, and there won't be any more than 3 people playing online games. I have already figured that we should try to be downloading movies and stuff during the daytime, or on one computer and then distributing it. That way it will be easier and we won't be wasting bandwidth duplicating downloads. I am also going to have one or 2 people do the downloading for everyoune to conserve speeds.

thanks

[mbentley]

Originally posted by IceWilly


okay, what does this mean, i thought you put the net connection into the router and from there that splits the connection, whats the switch do?



Well... its "College Park" maryland. Thats the University of Maryland with 25000+ students. Now the majority of those students are on the college T3 network... So i don't know how speeds will be for us, and there won't be any more than 3 people playing online games. I have already figured that we should try to be downloading movies and stuff during the daytime, or on one computer and then distributing it. That way it will be easier and we won't be wasting bandwidth duplicating downloads. I am also going to have one or 2 people do the downloading for everyoune to conserve speeds.

thanks

all that a switch does is allow more computers to be connected together, but it does it more efficiently than a hub does. if you have a choice between a hub and a switch, i would pretty much always go with a switch.

as for the downloading during the day, the best time to be downloading is actually at night. most people are asleep and your speed will increase at night if it isn't already maxed out during the day.

with online gaming, it isn't so much of a connection speed issue as it is a ping issue. you will want good pings because an online game doesn't use that much of a cable modem's bandwidth. you just need a good ping so it doesn't lag. generally, multiple people gaming isn't going to kill the ping, but may bring it up a tad.

when you go out to buy a router, just make sure you don't buy the very cheapest thing you can find. with a good deal of networking equipment, you get what you pay for...

[sHape oF gReY]

Im sorta in the same boat as the original poster, so I thought I'd ask my questions here.

Ok here's the thing. If you connect your modem (DSL in my case) to the router you wouldnt need to have one computer on to connect right? What i mean is that ATM, my DSL modem connects to 1 of the 4 XP machines, and then using ICS the DSL connection is made avaliable to the rest of the computers, but in order for others to use the DSL modem the machine that the modem is connected to has to be on.

Would getting a router eliminate the need to have that one computer on or have access to that computer in order to have access to DSL?


God i hope im not confusing the crap out of ya'll :D

~peace

[su root]

Originally posted by sHape oF gReY
Im sorta in the same boat as the original poster, so I thought I'd ask my questions here.

Ok here's the thing. If you connect your modem (DSL in my case) to the router you wouldnt need to have one computer on to connect right? What i mean is that ATM, my DSL modem connects to 1 of the 4 XP machines, and then using ICS the DSL connection is made avaliable to the rest of the computers, but in order for others to use the DSL modem the machine that the modem is connected to has to be on.
Yes, the ICS server would need to be on. The more loaded down the ICS server is, the slower the internet is for everyone, so ICS I recommend it as a dedicated, or small workgroup solution.

Would getting a router eliminate the need to have that one computer on or have access to that computer in order to have access to DSL?
Yes, the router is would be the only thing that would have to stay on.
Another solution would be if you had extra hardware lying around, you could build and use a linux box as a router. -- anything 386 or higher, with 2 NICs will do. If you dont' know linux very well, there's very easy distributions that use your webbrowser to set up and maintain.

[sHape oF gReY]

Awsome, thanx mate. :D

[IceWilly]

all that a switch does is allow more computers to be connected together, but it does it more efficiently than a hub does. if you have a choice between a hub and a switch, i would pretty much always go with a switch.

It sounds like a switch is a lot like a router, some1 said i would need both... is that true? If not which should i get?

and.... what a good networking brands. I have a linksys at home, and its okay, but i don't think its the best of routers.

thanks

[mbentley]

Originally posted by IceWilly


It sounds like a switch is a lot like a router, some1 said i would need both... is that true? If not which should i get?

and.... what a good networking brands. I have a linksys at home, and its okay, but i don't think its the best of routers.

thanks

a switch is and isn't like a router. a router will share the internet connection and can provide dhcp. a switch will only allow computers to connect. the reason why they said that you would need a switch is that in order to have 8 computers to connect to one another, you will need more than the couple ports that a router has. i haven't seen routers with 8 ports before.

give me a little bit and i will make up a quick diagram in visio for ya...

*edit: here is the pic*
http://www.mbentley.net/forums/oc/networking_internet/8_comp_network.png

[su root]

a router is a switch with a few extra options.. it allows you to connect cable or dsl internet right into it, and distribute it to everyone on the network.

A router IS a switch over the normal ports, it just has one extra, special port for the internet connection. Also does firewalling, DHCP and NAT.

[IceWilly]

OK so the only need the switch because there aren't routers that can handle 8 ports right?

Would i also be wise to not use the firewall options on the router, it will probably cause more problems than its worth with p2p stuff and Direct Connect hubs, especially with 8 people. I use port forwarding at home but that will be to hard to do at school...

[mbentley]

Originally posted by IceWilly
OK so the only need the switch because there aren't routers that can handle 8 ports right?

Would i also be wise to not use the firewall options on the router, it will probably cause more problems than its worth with p2p stuff and Direct Connect hubs, especially with 8 people. I use port forwarding at home but that will be to hard to do at school...

i would personally think you're crazy if you are going to disable any firewall features. get a good router and use the firewall features. it will save you a big headache of getting rid of worms and attacks...

[SniperXX]

Originally posted by mbentley


i would personally think you're crazy if you are going to disable any firewall features. get a good router and use the firewall features. it will save you a big headache of getting rid of worms and attacks...



I agree with mbentley, even with firewall on the router on can save you many head aches. Even on the default (usually a low setting) it blocks many worms and other problems but you can still direct connect with mosth programs. Some programs may not work so just port forward those ports since it shouldnt be too many programs that wont go though the router. I got the firewall on my router on and it saves me alot, I have never even gotten a single worm. Also, all my programs work fine and direct connections work too, I just had to use port forwarding for my FTP/ apache server, thats it.

[jajmon]

A 'router' in it's purest definition does only one thing, route packets from one ip network to another ip network 'period' In this case WAN (Internet) to LAN (internal network) A router is not a switch. A switch/hub connects pc's on a LAN. Many if not all commercial SOHO broadband 'routers' have a -switch- built in allowing pc's to connect to each other as well as routing packets from one network to another (WAN/LAN, that doesn't make a 'router' a switch in the purest defenition of a router.) And yes there are SOHO 'routers' w/built-in switches that have 8 ports.

[IceWilly]

I agree with mbentley, even with firewall on the router on can save you many head aches. Even on the default (usually a low setting) it blocks many worms and other problems but you can still direct connect with mosth programs. Some programs may not work so just port forward those ports since it shouldnt be too many programs that wont go though the router

The port forwarding is the problem i will have. Won't i only be able to forward the port to one computer, thus having only ME be able to play the certain game online. If the firewall could just open a few specific ports without forwarding them to only one computer that would work fine.

[su root]

Originally posted by IceWilly
The port forwarding is the problem i will have. Won't i only be able to forward the port to one computer, thus having only ME be able to play the certain game online. If the firewall could just open a few specific ports without forwarding them to only one computer that would work fine.
The problem with opening ports is that you have to give it somewhere to open "to". Some routers allow you to open ports to a broadcast address (which will send anything coming in on the forwarded port to everybody), (i.e. 192.168.0.255), but that will mean a flood of traffic when anyone is playing a game. A lot of games will work without port forwarding, there is only a few that you will not be able to play without the forwarding.

Here in residence, I have no control over what ports are forwarded (in fact, none are forwarded), but I have no problems playing games on the internet in that respect.

[IceWilly]

Okay i am back with some fresh questions:

There will be 8 people on this connection that need internet access, possibly 9 (media center).

1) Will 1 modem be enough, or should i see about the possibility of using 2. ( i realize extra charges)

2) It will be much easier if some of the people have wireless connections. Do switches have the option for wireless networking? or should i just have their connections on the router and then use the switch for everyone else.

Basically how should i set this up, and if anyone has any recommendations for hardware i should use i would appreciate it.

Thanks again.

P.S. if no one responds here i will be making a new thread on this topic.

[su root]

Originally posted by IceWilly
Okay i am back with some fresh questions:

There will be 8 people on this connection that need internet access, possibly 9 (media center).

1) Will 1 modem be enough, or should i see about the possibility of using 2. ( i realize extra charges)
2 Modems are hard to set up without coughing up $200+ for a router that supports dual modems. Easiest thing to do is upgrade your internet package.

2) It will be much easier if some of the people have wireless connections. Do switches have the option for wireless networking? or should i just have their connections on the router and then use the switch for everyone else.
If you have a wireless router, then just have them connect to that, otherwise, you need a wireless access point, or you need to replace your router with a router with wireless capabilities.

Basically how should i set this up, and if anyone has any recommendations for hardware i should use i would appreciate it.

Thanks again.

P.S. if no one responds here i will be making a new thread on this topic.
Plug the router into the intenet connection, plug the switch into the router, have the clients connect to the router or switch.

[IceWilly]

I just some information from a friend that i may have looked foolish not knowing. I didn't know you could run many connections from one wireless access point. I am just going to buy a good wireless router (g probably) and have everyone that wants wireless buy their cards and adapters. I will hardwire myself and a few other connections for Xbox live hookups....

Think i am going to go with a good linksys router.

**EDIT** forget a linksys router, bad range. I have heard good things about the D-Link 624 so i am gonna go with that.

*Another question:
WHat do i need for the Client side of the wireless connection. I see a bunch of the little cards for sale but i don't know what i need to hook that up to a pci slot.

If this is a bad plan plz let me know. thx

[su root]

Wireless is a little expensive if it isn't for laptops. You would need to buy a PCI wireless NIC for the other computers. Usually, this is a combination of a PCI to PCMCIA converter, and a PCMCIA NIC.

The connection software will come with the NIC

[IceWilly]

well the cards are 50 bucks for a wireless card. Considering the house this really might be the best solution. Its a big house with 3 floors of people connected. Also the computers would be in different corners. Everyone is pretty much banking on wireless anyway and i will be in the room with the router and a wire connection :D. anyways this will also save us buying another router and dealing with more hd and networking settings.

[diggingforgold]

Will all 8 people be using computers? Will all 8 people need broadband? Will all 8 people need to be on one home network? Here is my idea (prepare for more ghetto mspaint diagrams w00t):


http://jeffsrig.no-ip.com/oc/ghettodiagram.PNG

Just make two separate networks, each with their own router and cable modem. Then have the people from each network pitch in for their own cable costs.

[IceWilly]

Well, first of all i think the 2nd modem would cost more and wouldn't be worth it. Because of the amount of computers a wireless router/switch can host we really only need 1 good wireless router and jsut a buncha nic cards.
it should work okay. thx

[su root]

You may also want to consider wireless speeds. Depending on what router and wireless cards you get, your speeds might be a little slow. 11Mbits is plenty for internet access only, but if you want to transfer large files, or stream high quality video, then you will want to look at wireless G, or it's derivitives (i think they're up to 108Mbits now)

[IceWilly]

you know it, the plan right now is wireless G, its only going to be 54 mbps cause there aren't 108 mbps ones that are easy to configure. you need certain hardware and i have heard its a hassle. But yes 54 mbps and Wireless G is the plan now. We don't do alot of streaming video or anythings, its basically the occasional movie and music download.

[The_Last_Don]

another thing to consider is I would definitely upgrade your cable internet package w/ 8 people using the bandwidth. Especially if there are more than 2-3 semi-regular gamers. I'm assuming your with Comcast, get the home networking package. It's 20 bucks more a month / 8 people......works out to 2 bucks per person. Increases downstream to 4mbs and upstream to 384 (50% increase for up)

Definitely go G wireless router (they all come with 4 port hard-wire) and then everyone can have it however they want it, you can still use a hard-wire switch with it if necessary. Just be sure you secure your wireless network.

[Krusty]

Yay! A thread I can give some good input on!

So, here's my input: if the people you live with are idiots or geeks, you're screwed for gaming.

I have roadrunner cable with 4Mb down and 256Kb up. We have 3 people in our apartment. Each person has a desktop computer and a laptop computer. We also have various additional computers for various purposes. We have had as much as 5 people gaming and one person web surfing and had no problems with ping whatsoever.

With that said, it is now nearly impossible for me to get a decent ping to play tribes or warcraft.

My roommate brought his friends web server down from berkeley several months ago. Once that was on our network, I lagged horribly every time someone accessed the web server. To help reduce the lag, he limited the bandwidth that the web server can upload. I think it only uploads at a max of 10K/s. I still ping an average of about 5 seconds otu of every minute and my ping isknown to exceed 1000ms. THEN my other roommate started using a file sharign program that requires uploading to download. Now he uploads at 10K/s as well. When he is uploading at a constant rate of 10K/s, my ping never goes below 800ms.

So I have up to 20K/s of my 32K/s bandwidth being taken up at times. Games only take a couple of K/s but I still lag horribly.

I believe the root of this problem is in the router. It probably has a crappy way of sharing bandwidth. So one computer gets to send 10K, then the other gets to send 10K, then I get to send my 2K. A better time sharing algorithm would let each computer send a couple of packets in a round robin fashion.

Anyways, my suggestion: Don't let people run web servers. Don't let people share files. If that doesn't happen, your pings should be fine. If someone does share files or run a server, make sure the bandwidth is limited AND find some sort of router that shares bandwidth in a better fashion. I have had Linksys, SMC, and TrendNET routers and they all suck for pings when someone is uploading files. If anyonen can suggest a router (or routing software to put on a computer router) that can do this effectively, it would be very helpful.

[IceWilly]

Wow thanks man... Heres the deal with my friends. While we are college kids and we all download music and stuff occasionally we don't keep things on or share much at all. At least not during the day. Also only 3 of us really play online games, and even then its mostly just me. No one would be running a webserver or anything like because i am the only one that really knows how to anyway. So i lucked out and am probably the biggest geek/bandwidth user in the house. I think it should work okay if we make rules as to when to download and such. Yeah i def lucked out, if there were 6 more of me we would never get any decent speed. :D

thx

ps i am looking at the Dlink wireless router (AirPlus Xtreme G)

[Krusty]

Downloads shouldn't be much of a problem unless people are doing some HEAVY downloading to take up all of your bandwidth.

Enjoy paying your $5/month for high speed internet.

[zeroxeal]

if you go wireless please try and do some security, its boring not having to do any worok on war drives, plus without security any one can get in.