Here's EXACTLY what happens when you flash the 9800xt bios to sapphire 9800pro

[rayik]

DDR-PIII started the excellent thread about how to flash a 9800xt bios to your 9800pro. I asked in a seperate thread - what happens when you do that? Did some searching and here's what I found out.

Card is sapphire 9800pro (bought from newegg one week ago). RAM is Samsung RA-GC2A (2.8ns). Original BIOS is: 113-A07502-116. (you can get your bios # from the ATI Control panel - "options" then "details"


The original 9800pro bios "Sapphire.9800PRO.128.Samsung.bin" and the 9800xt bios for that sapphire card "HIS.9800XT.128MB.Samsung.bin" can be found here: http://my.tbaytel.net/panthor/bioses.htm

Found program called RADedit that will let you edit your BIOS. (download at: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/radedit/radedit11d-bin.zip?download)

When you load both bios in RADedit the first thing I notice is that the BIOS #s are the same. Looks like only difference is settings between the two. The only settings different are the core and memory speeds.

Using RADedit, you can actually modify:

Memory Timings (SDR/DDR and CAS1, CAS2, or CAS3)
Core and memory speed
TV Standard (NTSC/PAL/none)
Default Refresh Rates
Vendor ID (manufacturer of card)
Font size

Thus, flashing that 9800XT bios to the 9800pro card only changes the core /memory rate. Nothing else.

If you want, using RADedit, you can play with your CAS settings (and try CAS1). You can also do any other kind of changes you want (even to a copy of your original bios).

So, looks safe to flash. I did it. XP discovered new hardware. For some reason I had to uninstall and reinstall the drivers.

Works nice. While I know it only changed core/memory speed, it does feel nice to see 9800XT listed as my card.

[felinusz]

I tryed playing with the CAS timings in my 9800 PRO's BIOS a while back.

Anything but CAS 2 caused Rainbow ASCII stew on boot, and each time I had to blindflash back to the original BIOS (very nerve racking).

I'm wondering however, if perhaps the timings can be changed in the XT BIOS, while leaving the card functional?

[Sentential]

Hmm I thought of something. Is it possible to change the voltage?

They gotta raise the v-core somewhat to run the XT. Maybe there is a way to software volt-mod a 9800.

my.02

[Albuquerque]

Not that we havent' answered this question approximately thirteen times. so for those who want to ask again:

All models of the R300, R350, and R360 chipset are voltage-regulated entirely by outboard hardware seperate from the BIOS, the AGP chipset voltage, or the GPU itself. This encompasses the following video cards:
Radeon 9500 (all versions, all manufacturers)
Radeon 9600 (all versions, all manufacturers)
Radeon 9700 (all versions, all manufacturers)
Radeon 9800 (all versions, all manufacturers)

The ONLY WAY to modify voltage to any integral part of any of these video cards is to physically modify the voltage regulator unit on the card. No amount of BIOS modification, GPU manipulation or AGP voltage tinkering will change it.

Any questions? :)

[rayik]

The ONLY WAY to modify voltage to any integral part of any of these video cards is to physically modify the voltage regulator unit on the card.

I did find a hardware volt mod for 9800pro here: http://www.fastlanehw.com/reviews.php?action=view&revid=74

I have no intention of trying that hardware mod.

___________________________________________

After flashing to the 9800xt bios, I ran 3dmark03 extensively. There must be either a hardware difference between the pro / xt or there are bios settings RADedit doesn't show.

With the xt bios I had extensive artifacts in Battle of Proxycon, Trolls Lair and RagTroll - regards of core / mem speeds. Even with core / mem speeds at 9800pro level, same extensive artifacting.

Flashed the pro bios back in and no artifacts. Able to run 437 / 376 (which is above the xt speeds) without any artifacts. With pro bios even able to run those speeds with CAS1 w/o artifacts.

(However, pro bios with CAS1 acaused the test frame rate to vary widely varied compared to pro bios with CAS2. Roughly equal 3dmark03 scores, but definately a "herky jerky" look with CAS1. )

So, xt bios and artifacting. Pro bios and no artifacting at the very same core /mem speeds.

In the end, I just used RADedit to modify the pro bios to have xt default core/ram speeds. Seems to be working fine.

[PerlAddict]

What were your 3DMark scores? With your mem speeds above the XT's, are you pushing pasts the average XT score? And if someone had an XT, do you think it would OC to a higher level than the pro?

I'm trying to decide between a 9800Pro and XT (probably go with Sapphire, since I've read so many good things about them, and apparently the manufacture the boards that a lot of other companies actually use, anyway), and there's about a $200 difference between the Pro and XT. Would you recommend just getting the Pro and OC'ing it?

No matter what, anything would scream past my current card at this point (can we say TNT2 Ultra? Now can we say it without crying?), so I don't know if it's really worth an extra $200 for the differences I'll be noticing (and as far as games that I'll likely be playing, they'll be FPS like HL2, Call of Duty, Medal of Honor, etc).

What do you recommend? Also, is there that much of a difference between cards with 128MB and those with 256MBs?

- Dave

[rabdatrox]

In short, no. As you said you are better off buying a 9800 pro and ocing/flashing it. BOth cards will become outdated at approximately the same time, not worth the $200 unless you don't know what to do with them at all... JIMHO

[Strida]

The XT gets ~ 2-5 fps better in the benchmarks I've seen.

Definately not worth the extra 200 dollars.

[PerlAddict]

Awesome. Putting my sights down to Pro from XP, and 128MB to 256MB, you guys just saved me a cool 2 Benjamins. :)

Like I said, I figure that going to ANYTHING from a TNT2 will look like silk to me ... I just want to be able to play HL2 and enjoy it when it comes out.

I was planning on getting a Sapphire card ... have you guys enjoyed yours, or have any alternate recommendations (especially for OC'ing). And is the stock cooling generally good enough, given good case temps are already present?

[rangi]

Hi all,
I flashed my 9800pro bois with the powercolor Xt bios...as with rayik's post,
Quote:
With the xt bios I had extensive artifacts in Battle of Proxycon, Trolls Lair and RagTroll - regards of core / mem speeds. Even with core / mem speeds at 9800pro level, same extensive artifacting.

I discovered the same problem, I was so gutted, my card oc'ed well enough as a pro but had issues with the XT bios but with this editor oh yeah all could be good.

What I would like to know is what environment this proggy best run in, DOS or could you have a peek in windows?


Cheers
Rangi

[rayik]

PerlAddict
What were your 3DMark scores? With your mem speeds above the XT's, are you pushing pasts the average XT score?

pro bios - no o/c - 4300
pro bios- 412/ 365 oc - 5300
pro bios - 437/375 - 5350
xt bios - no o/c - 5500

Little faster with xt bios but artifacts. Running a Tully Celeron 1.1 at 1.58. (This card is going in a new p4 system I'm going to build next month.)

rangi
What I would like to know is what environment this proggy best run in, DOS or could you have a peek in windows?

I'm assuming you refer to RADedit. It runs in windows. Get some of the different BIOS and you can compare them.

PerlAddict
I'm trying to decide between a 9800Pro and XT (probably go with Sapphire, since I've read so many good things about them, and apparently the manufacture the boards that a lot of other companies actually use, anyway), and there's about a $200 difference between the Pro and XT. Would you recommend just getting the Pro and OC'ing it?

I would recommend just buying the 9800pro and oc it. From what I did, I can get nearly xt 3dmark03 scores with an oc pro. You can take your pro bios, use RADedit to change the default speeds to xt speeds, and then flash that bios. (If you don't want to flash the bios, you could use ATItool to set new speeds.)

One thing I'd recommend is a new cooler for the 9800pro. I bought a VGA Silencer (from Artic Cooling) for $20 as the same time. 10 minutes to take the stock HSF off and put this on. Really easy. The VGA Silencer seems to do an excellent job at cooling. The card / HS gets only a little warm when running 3dmark03 at oc speeds. Theres a bunch of other threads on how good the VGA Silencer is.

Enjoy your new card. Mine's for a new system. However, I threw it in my old system replacing a 4200ti. Night and day. To me, amazing performance. 3dMark03 went from 1300 with 4200ti to 4300 with 9800pro. More importantly, games are amazing. MOH plays full speed with all details turned on at 1024x768. Nascar Racing 2002 is just a joy to look at now (before with the 4200ti details would have to be turned way down to get a playable frame rate.) You'll definately enjoy the 9800pro if you get one.

[glock19owner]

Originally posted by rangi
With the xt bios I had extensive artifacts in Battle of Proxycon, Trolls Lair and RagTroll - regards of core / mem speeds. Even with core / mem speeds at 9800pro level, same extensive artifacting.

This is a issue with the 9800 XT's (some work corectly, most have the "artifacts") and 03, so if you flash to the XT you will be having this issue also...this is not because of your card...futuremarks forum has a few threads about this issue and they are supposed to be working on a fix...they also stated that it has no effects on your score...

[rangi]

Hi all,
I found that with the XT bios my system in general got warmer...at at all a good thing where I stand :) some decent VGA cooling needed IMO, so I looked at that editing program and saw very little difference apart from clock and memory settings when comparing an Xt/pro bios's, If alls good as glock19owner suggests in 3dmark, then whats the point to it all if only the XT is displayed yet the overall performance is roughly the same..is it an ego thing or is there something more to the XT bios that what that editing program displays?

Seeing that ati have handed out the manufacturing to many companies such as sapphire, powercolor, gigacube, etc would it not be plausible to flash any 9800pro (with same ram i.e.samsung, etc) with any XT bios?

Rangi

[rayik]

I've done a lot more reading in the last few days. The forum at rage3d.com is very helpful.

Basically, the consensus is that you do not want to flash the xt bios onto a 9800pro. You lose AA when you do so. You also end up with artifacts in DX9. (Additionally, the xt has a thermal probe which the bios monitors - that thermal probe is not on a pro card.)

There was lots of discussion about what pro bios would give the best oc results. There seem to be 3 types of ram used in the 98000pro. Oldest was Samsung RA-GC2A (used to 9/03), then came Samsung 8E-GC2A (e-die) and then Hynex chips. The 8E was the best ok). Differnt bios recommended for each kind of ram.

MarginJohn seems to be the guru on 9800pro bios at rage3d. Here's his recommendations:

9800Pros originally were built with RA-GC2A memory. Those chips went out of production at Samsung in September '03 (the last order date was August '03) so during the August to October time frame the cards were switched over to Samsung 8E-GC2A chips. If your venfor has old stock or you buy a used card you could still get RA chips. It appears that at least some new 9800 Pro's are now being built with Hynix 2.86ns memory. To bad to cause it OC's more like the old Samsung RA. Samsung 8E chips typically OC like striped apes! MJ The bios issue is very simple. If you have Samsung RA chips use the P/N 113-A07502-102 bios dated 4/4/03 (PowerColor bios). If you have Samsung 8E chips use the P/N 113-A07518-100 dated 8/29/03 (Giga-Cube Ultimate Extreme bios clocked 398/351 stock). If you have Hynix it's a toss up as to the best bios. MJ

Here's a link to the thread where I quote MarginJohn above: http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=33739207&highlight=113A07518100

That thread also contains a link to where you can find the mentioned bioses.

If you want to do a lot of reading on the 9800pro bios issue over at rage 3d, here's a link for search results on it: http://www.rage3d.com/board/search.php?action=showresults&searchid=1661844&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

[ruffman]

I have a Sapphire 9800Pro I got from newegg a few days ago. Pulled the heatsink and found a R360 chip sitting under there.
Using Rage3D tweak I software clocked to 9800XT speeds. 3DMark ran fine until Nature then saw white pixles and water visual was bad. Clocking down the GPU 10Mhz fixed problems.

Bios flashed to 9800XT. Score jumped 100 more and fewer white pixles water much better.

The cheapo aluminum HS is the problem with my card. The factory 9800XT cards come with big meaty copper HS where the 9800Pros have small aluminum. Not even a true 9800XT could run right with this type of HS.

Only problem is cant seem to find a good set of bios that will get the temp/overclock tab to show. Guessing the bios that are out there labled Xt are just hacked versions of 9800Pro bios and the probe is still not programed to work (?)