Intel Sued Over Hyperthreading

[Cowboy X]

A company is suing Intel for infringement of several patents including the use of SSE , SSE2 and hyperthreading :

http://www.e4engineering.com/story.aspx?uid=93fbc043-a0d9-4758-956b-18fde5e4bc3d&cuid=b96dad81-0ef4-4fcc-9e3d-a7bd9b6a4258

[bottoneatrpi]

so Intel just stole this code from MicroUnity? That seems hard to believe

[Captain Newbie]

Cool.

[Dragonprince]

Hmmm. Reminds me of another frivilous law suit recently filed...can anyone say SCO ???

[SewerBeing]

go MicroUnity go!! They might have more of a case then sco.

[Captain Newbie]

Originally posted by SewerBeing
go MicroUnity go!! They might have more of a case then sco.

I would need to read the patent documents on that, but I do believe MicroUnity will win this case.

[SewerBeing]

they should, Intel should lose something, if they have what they claim

[craig588]

and it took them 5 years to put together a lawsuit? Sounds like they are trying to get some free money.

[Alice]

So what does this mean to us? Just wondering.

[NewbiePerson]

Why aren't they suing amd too? AMD uses sse and sse 2....

[Sophisticated]

now that intel comes out with something good like hyperthread people wanna sue..what a joke..where im getting with this nowhere:D

[Avg]

i'm curious too what about amd they also use sse.

[Lan_Of_Malkier]

What does it mean? Well as you can see by reading it gives the AMD fanny boys something to talk about.

What does Intel deserve? Besides great reviews on processors. And has anybody else seen that company doing something with the technology? Hmmmmm, nope.

I'll have to dig but I know AMD is guilty of corporate espionage as well. Everyone is in the big business world. That's just how it works. Not sayin it was right perhaps, but.

It's called smart business, and if you know anything about business, it's not honest or nice. I hate Microsoft with a passion, but not because they are huge and worth Billions. They got there the same way, smart business. Unethical albiet, but smart.

It'll be intersting to see where this goes, but nobody want to hear the "I told you so's" or bandwagon boys srceamin about how Intel deserves anything.

Edit: Sorry about the rant, I know it was only like 2 of the posts so far....but I can't stand it.....

[Krowa 02]

Heh, free money sounds good to anyone. People do anything for it.

[diehrd]

Originally posted by Alice
So what does this mean to us? Just wondering.

Well ya cant use SSE features or the hyper threading..maybe AMD can help you out ? KIDDING LOL>>>LOL>>

[sappo]

AMD has SSE instructions because Intel allowed them to. They probably get royalties.

I remember reading somewhere that AMD owns a patent for hyperthreading-like technology --and they've had it for may years if I recall.

What does THIS mean? Probably that hyperthreading isnt all that revolutionary and innovative since 3 companies (supposedly) came up with it all by themselves. If that is indeed what happened, I doubt MicroUnity has much of a case.

Edit:
I think this is the article I had read:
http://www.theinquirer.net/Default.aspx?article=6773

Their link to the patent didnt work for me. Here's a working link (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,944,816.WKU.&OS=PN/5,944,816&RS=PN/5,944,816)

The patent was filed back in 1996! So I'm thinking if MicroUnity does in fact get royalties, AMD may be able to build a solid case too. I still doubt it tho.

[Captain Newbie]

Originally posted by NewbiePerson
Why aren't they suing amd too? AMD uses sse and sse 2....

Advanced Micro Devices, Inc., makes no patent claims to Streaming SIMD Extensions. They simply provide support for them.

Hyperthreading is a joke. Sorry.

Read that again.

Hyperthreading is a joke. But good to see that someone is still sticking up to patent rights.

[Steven4563]

i just think ppl think to much look how big intel are compared to MicroUnity i never heard of them before i read this post

intel have billions of $ and can get best ppl to help them out of this one :(

[OC Noob]

Originally posted by Captain Newbie


Advanced Micro Devices, Inc., makes no patent claims to Streaming SIMD Extensions. They simply provide support for them.

Hyperthreading is a joke. Sorry.

Read that again.

Hyperthreading is a joke. But good to see that someone is still sticking up to patent rights.


If you think Hyperthreading is a joke performance wise, I think you need to re-evaluate it.

Its not the end all, but it does give the P4 a solid edge over even the A64 in some apps.


I'm thinking if AMD had HT and a means to support it they would be using it. Perhaps they can't get the software support needed to utilize their version of it if they have a working version of Hyperthreading.

[sappo]

Originally posted by OC Noob
I'm thinking if AMD had HT and a means to support it they would be using it. Perhaps they can't get the software support needed to utilize their version of it if they have a working version of Hyperthreading.

Not necessarily true. AMD has a lot more going for them other than multi-threading. Not the least of which include hyper transport and 64 bit.

But I dont think it's worthless. It's pretty hard to say something is a joke if it doesn't really cost intel anything to implement it on their CPU's

[Lan_Of_Malkier]

Ahhhh.....as far as Hyper-transport is concerned I believe Intel has that coming too. ( I'm thinking of the new PCI technology )

[Albuquerque]

Anyone who categorizes symmetric multithreading a joke has their head firmly planted in their posterior orifice. Symmetric multithreading doesn't automatically make everything go faster, just like dual processor systems don't do everything 2x faster than a single processor.

SMT allows a single processor to do what users have been wanting for the last ten years -- multiple simultaneous tasks. Believe it or not, this is the way of the future. At some point, things will stop getting faster by pure megahertz, and will start getting faster by multiple processors. It's not because I want it or anyone else wants it, it's because physics will (at some point) stop allowing us to crank up the speed.

In the same way that 64-bit computing is the future, so is multithreading and even multiprocessing. It's quite likely that Intel's multi-core processors in the future will have SMT support for each core in a multicore unit.

[OC Noob]

Originally posted by sappo


Not necessarily true. AMD has a lot more going for them other than multi-threading. Not the least of which include hyper transport and 64 bit.

But I dont think it's worthless. It's pretty hard to say something is a joke if it doesn't really cost intel anything to implement it on their CPU's


From a marketing and from a performance stand point I don't see why they would leave something out that would give better performance and great marketing value when its so cheap and easy to add.

Even with the great performance of the A64 it seems like it would have made sense to add something like that if they could considering the benifits, most of which are financial, but there is still a good ammount of performance to be gained in some HT enabled apps (like you said) at very little cost.

We need an AMD insider to give us the scoop. Whats going on with AMD HT???:)

[sappo]

Here's what AMD's patent allows them to do. Now far be it from me to talk as tho I was a patent lawyer, but to the layman, it sure as heck sounds like AMD could implement multi-threading if they wanted.....

A microprocessor including a context file configured to store multiple contexts is provided. The microprocessor may execute multiple threads, each thread having its own context within the microprocessor. In one embodiment, the present microprocessor is capable of executing at least two threads concurrently: a task and an interrupt service routine. Interrupt service routines may be executed without disturbing a task's context and without performing a context save operation. Instead, the interrupt service routine accesses a context which is independent of the context of the task. In another embodiment, the context file includes multiple interrupt service routine contexts. Multiple ISR context storages allow for nested interrupts to be performed concurrently. In yet another embodiment, the microprocessor is configured to execute multiple tasks and multiple interrupt service routines concurrently. Multiple tasks may be executed concurrently by the microprocessor in addition to executing multiple interrupt service routines concurrently. In still another embodiment, the microprocessor includes a primary context and multiple local context storages coupled to each of its execution units. A given execution unit may execute instructions referencing the primary context or the local context connected thereto.

[Dukemurmur]

Yeah that sure seems that they are alowed HT in the fact of i guess what u could say " two pipelines" that can each use the cpu at the same time. So yeah they "ARE" allowed HT but why not use it? R they not compatible with there current cores/procs is that why? or do they fell that they dont need to use up there R&D yet as they r still ahead of intel without it?

[sappo]

Originally posted by Lan_Of_Malkier
Ahhhh.....as far as Hyper-transport is concerned I believe Intel has that coming too. ( I'm thinking of the new PCI technology )

The two have nothing in common.

Besides, AMD will have PCI-E too.

[diehrd]

See Avatar...........

[Darkseid]

Originally posted by craig588
and it took them 5 years to put together a lawsuit? Sounds like they are trying to get some free money.


i was thinkin just that... doesn`t make a lot of sense

[sappo]

Originally posted by Darkseid



i was thinkin just that... doesn`t make a lot of sense

Come on guys. That's exactly why "statute of limitations" was invented. The length of time shouldn't matter unless the law says so.

[jcrox]

LOL....There are only two reasons i can think of for them to file suit this late in the game:

#1: It took this long to backtrack and figure out what Intel was doing and then document and prove that.

#2: They are losing money and want some of it back from Intel.

Why else would you spend the money to file suit? Also that courthouse is about an hour from me so i might just mosey on over there when this thing gets going.

[emboss]

The K7 core will not benefit much from hyperthreading.

In the P4 core, because of the long pipelines, the execution units are sitting around doing nothing for a fair bit of the time (unless it's running optimised code). Hence SMT can get these units back working. In the K7 core, the execution unit utilization is much higher, and hence the benefits from SMT would be fairly small. The only benefit would come from when one app is doing extensive FPU work, and the other is dealing mainly in the integer units.

I've always found it ironic that the more optimized the code is, the less performance gain you get with hyperthreading :)

[makks]

For the latest on who sued Intel and what they won....see this.
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103_2-5182064.html

[JoT]

Interesting story, thanks makks. It looks as though Intel has a long history of patent infringement...

[josephtischer]

Its common knowledge that Intel is kile its Software cousin M$ in that they use someone else's ideas, then get sued when someone stumbles upon it. I have yet to got 3 months without finding an article about either of them getting sued by a company that they used to partner with form intellectual property theft. Just look in ZDNET's past articles.

As far as AMD, everyone has said what is true.... the proc is already being utilized with little waste. The Intels use the large pipeline and have lots of idle units. Until Hyperthreading was enabled the proc was just unefficient.

As far as the law suit I had heard about 6 years ago about MicroUnit. They did file a patent and Intel shrugged them off. It takes time to build a case like this. Think about how long it took the gov to build a case against M$.

[Burning Phoenix]

Dont forget AMD isnt so Innocent. In 1986 they stole Intel intellectual property by reverse engineering the 386.

[Captain Newbie]

Originally posted by Burning Phoenix
Dont forget AMD isnt so Innocent. In 1986 they stole Intel intellectual property by reverse engineering the 386.

IIRC, they had a liscense agreement for x86 with Intel, and FIXED the problems with the Intel i80386...and produced a 40-MHz processor, on an advanced process where Intel could only hit 33ish tops.

Intel played cover-up and sued AMD. The court ruled in AMD's favor.

[OC Noob]

Originally posted by emboss
The K7 core will not benefit much from hyperthreading.

In the P4 core, because of the long pipelines, the execution units are sitting around doing nothing for a fair bit of the time (unless it's running optimised code). Hence SMT can get these units back working. In the K7 core, the execution unit utilization is much higher, and hence the benefits from SMT would be fairly small. The only benefit would come from when one app is doing extensive FPU work, and the other is dealing mainly in the integer units.

I've always found it ironic that the more optimized the code is, the less performance gain you get with hyperthreading :)


Thanks for the explaination. That was what I was wondering, not if they have the technology, but why they aren't using it if they have it.


*slaps Intel and MS on the wrist*

Bad, bad boys!

*Pats AMD on the head*

Gooood booooy.

[Steven4563]

LOL @ OC Noob :cool:

wow at the $225million :eek:

[Burning Phoenix]

Originally posted by Captain Newbie


IIRC, they had a liscense agreement for x86 with Intel, and FIXED the problems with the Intel i80386...and produced a 40-MHz processor, on an advanced process where Intel could only hit 33ish tops.

Intel played cover-up and sued AMD. The court ruled in AMD's favor.

Wrong! AMD sued Intel for backing out of a contract. Then AMD reversed engineered Intels 386 to make their own. The judge did not rule in the favor of AMD because of this. Kinda called it even.

[Captain Newbie]

Originally posted by makks
For the latest on who sued Intel and what they won....see this.
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103_2-5182064.html

Interesting stuff, especially the spats between Intel and Dell...