I have no need for water cooling anymore :>

[cookedcomp]

well, after some serious consideration and thinking back to how much hardware that i have lost to water cooling. I've decided to switch back to air cooled :D I figured since my system won't do more than 1.85 volts now that there is no real need for water cooling. Besides with some of the better heatsinks and a airconditioned room (room temp 23C) you can actualy achieve better than water cooling results:p. Although this is with every cable in my sytem rounded and 12 case fans:rolleyes: my hope is to eventualy make a condensation free fridge computer (very silent). Actualy nois is why i went back to air cooling! my bloddy pump was sounding like a pressure washer and i just don't have the funds to get a good pump right now:( i would much rather suffer the sound of the delta over the pump any day ;) maintanance is much less needed with air cooling as well.

temps in my sig are all air cooled, accept the video. That is now 46C with a cheap air cooler(486 heatsink)

[Billvill]

I hate to disagree but I guess that’s what the boards are for. One of the best benefits of a water-cooled PC is the quiet. I can only think you may have had a bad pump or an overkill pump for your application.

Billy

[cookedcomp]

mega overkill pump!!! also i wana give fridge cooling a try. I hear that these thing can be very silent;) and can also look cool if you stick your drives out the fridge door:p

[cjtune]

Now that you're done for WC, watcha gonna do with your 7 pelts?

[cookedcomp]

yeah dust sucks! not as much as demolding a watercooling system though:rolleyes:

[cookedcomp]

one thing i noticed is that i don't get a headache anymore when sitting for long times at my comp! also my music volume is lower now

[AMDGuy]

Odd. I've had my watercooling setup for about 4 months now and have done zero maintenance. Sound levels are low as well. I did take certain precautions such as using distilled water. That may be why I'm not having mold issues.

[rugby]

hye AMDGuy, I have a question regarding your maxijet pump. I did the same setup you did for the reservoir and it worked great for a couple of weeks. I noticed a few days ago the water was HOT! I just figured it was cooling the cpu, but then I had my computer off for a couple of days and still had the pump running and the water was still hot. The pump is heating the water! Does yours do this? I don't think the place I bought it from will take back a pump that's had the power cable cut and rewired so I may be sol. Any ideas?

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by cookedcomp
well, after some serious consideration and thinking back to how much hardware that i have lost to water cooling. I've decided to switch back to air cooled :D I figured since my system won't do more than 1.85 volts now that there is no real need for water cooling. Besides with some of the better heatsinks and a airconditioned room (room temp 23C) you can actualy achieve better than water cooling results:p. Although this is with every cable in my sytem rounded and 12 case fans:rolleyes: my hope is to eventualy make a condensation free fridge computer (very silent). Actualy nois is why i went back to air cooling! my bloddy pump was sounding like a pressure washer and i just don't have the funds to get a good pump right now:( i would much rather suffer the sound of the delta over the pump any day ;) maintanance is much less needed with air cooling as well.

temps in my sig are all air cooled, accept the video. That is now 46C with a cheap air cooler(486 heatsink)

WOOHOOO!! Welcome back! :D

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by Would71


But when your cooling system finally fails, it'll probably be a pretty spectacular burnout. :D Mine may lose a fan, but wouldn't leak and trash half the system. :D

MY thoughts exactly. And when a fan goes out, you know it :D

I have 7 120s 2 92s 1 60mm black delta with the CORE heatsink and one turbo bay cooler


Some lovely baffle work and she just purrs :D

[dwango]

By the time the water cooling system fails, it'll be about time for some new hardware anyways. :p

[cookedcomp]

Thats a nice looking case texmaster!!! were did you get it? If you made it, how long did it take ya?

[Flash]

So long and enjoy the roar!

Seriously though, why not just pick up a Rio 180 for like $8.00. Sure it's not the greatest pump in the world, but it does work and it's dead silent.

Also, as long as you take minimal precautions (i.e., use hose clamps, test run your system, set up a temp.-triggered shutdown routine) a water-cooled compuer is not significantly riskier than an air-cooled one.

Me, I'm never going back!

[Michael_Myers]

Save your breath. Sounds like trolls are under the bridge to me.

*IF* you take the time and are *SMART ENOUGH* to do a Watercooling project CORRECTLY.......you won't have any problems, and you blow away air cooled temps. No pun intended.
Plus you will be able to hear your wife calling when it's time for bed. :D

The more I think about it.....some people really should stick with air cooled.

[AMDGuy]

Originally posted by AMDGuy
Odd. I've had my watercooling setup for about 4 months now and have done zero maintenance. Sound levels are low as well. I did take certain precautions such as using distilled water. That may be why I'm not having mold issues.

It's possible that the pump does generate some heat. Mine has run 24x7 since I put it in and it's wired directly to the power supply so if I do turn it off the pump shuts off too. My temps are still quite low so I don't really care if the pump puts off heat.

If it's a concern for you, you could fabricate a barb in the reservoir and run the maxijet as an inline I would think. Just make sure the pump doesn't leak if ran that way.

[AMDGuy]

Originally posted by Would71


But when your cooling system finally fails, it'll probably be a pretty spectacular burnout. :D Mine may lose a fan, but wouldn't leak and trash half the system. :D

I used distilled water in my system, which supposedly won't hurt anything if it leaks. Just let it dry out and it's good as new (supposedly). I hope I never have to test that theory. I doubt I'll ever have a leak. My system uses simple hose clamps on everything. If they work on a car, they'll work on my PC.

The only thing I can see happening is the pump failing. I have MBM rigged with Shtdnnow to shut the system down if it ever reaches 55 degrees C. That should avoid any problems.

I doubt I'll ever go back to air cooling even if I don't overclock again. Water is just so much more efficient, and fun to build as well.

[surlyjoe]

heck , you can get the stuff wet , just gotta dry it out good , I do it all teh time ,,LOL

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by cookedcomp
Thats a nice looking case texmaster!!! were did you get it? If you made it, how long did it take ya?

Thanks! Its actually a modded Supermicro 750a full tower.

I wrote a few articles on how I made it.

Took about a weeks worth of gathering material and building it.

Painting took 3 more days

http://www.overclockers.com/tips316

http://www.overclockers.com/tips405

Thanks again! :D

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by Michael_Myers
Save your breath. Sounds like trolls are under the bridge to me.

*IF* you take the time and are *SMART ENOUGH* to do a Watercooling project CORRECTLY.......you won't have any problems, and you blow away air cooled temps. No pun intended.
Plus you will be able to hear your wife calling when it's time for bed. :D

The more I think about it.....some people really should stick with air cooled.

Completely disagree. I never hit 3 degrees C over room temp even at full load. And I'm using a Digital Doc 5 for my temp control.

I don't know of any water cooled systems that dont use peltiers that can make that claim.

[Flash]

Originally posted by texmaster


Completely disagree. I never hit 3 degrees C over room temp even at full load. And I'm using a Digital Doc 5 for my temp control.

I don't know of any water cooled systems that dont use peltiers that can make that claim.

Hyuh, well you're running a PIV, which in terms of heat (or performance for that matter) is not comparable to an Athlon). Slap a T-bird in there, jack it up to 1.6ghz, and *then* let's see if you're still running at 3C over ambient!

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by Flash


Hyuh, well you're running a PIV, which in terms of heat (or performance for that matter) is not comparable to an Athlon). Slap a T-bird in there, jack it up to 1.6ghz, and *then* let's see if you're still running at 3C over ambient!

LOL Hence the P4 Purchase :D

[Michael_Myers]

I have a friend who's job it is to test equipment for wachovia bank. All he does is sit around all day....order hi-tech stuff, and play with it. Then he writes up reports on the stuff, and hands it over to the highups on how to implement the new technology.

He told after the tests he has done, and I quote "Amd processors run circles around the Pentium processors"

He get's paid to know.

:D :D :D ;)

[Jig]

I prefer using fans for cooling. Using water cooling can be made real safe. Distilled water is the start. After running in a closed loop for awhile, even this can build up thing in it other than H2O.
I'd recommend using a demineralization catridge set up.

If the distiled water is run through a filtering system, a leak 3 months down the road won't ruin stuff, as pure h2o is actually a good dielectric.

[killem1x1]

I just wanted to let everyone know that distilled water is still very dangerous, it will still fry everyhting it touches. You must use deionized (lab grade) to even think about getting a drop or two on anything, and the only way to be absolutely certain is to use Flourinert,

Just FYI

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by Michael_Myers
I have a friend who's job it is to test equipment for wachovia bank. All he does is sit around all day....order hi-tech stuff, and play with it. Then he writes up reports on the stuff, and hands it over to the highups on how to implement the new technology.

He told after the tests he has done, and I quote "Amd processors run circles around the Pentium processors"

He get's paid to know.

:D :D :D ;)

And thats why business are eating up those AMD machines right? :D

[Torter]

Businesses aren't going away from Intel yet because their processors are PROVEN to be good ones over many years. It isn't because AMD doesn't have a better product. The companies are just waiting to see if AMD will maintain their status of putting out the best processors. If AMD's line of processors keep kicking the crap out of Intel's, for another year or so, you will see lots of companies going with AMD. Companies don't respond to things as quickly as individuals do. They can't afford a mistake in something so important.

Also, our company is going with Intel right now because we've had a lease contract with Dell for years. We are looking at AMD and watching!

I'm with AMD at home because the chips are better and cheaper. If I had several million dollars to toss away, I would go with flat panel displays, P4 processors, and RDRAM for everybody. That way, you can throw away more money with less fuss.

If Intel sees the light and puts out a better product at a better price, I would switch to Intel. I'm not loyal to any company. Actually, in a few years, Intel and AMD may have switched places. Then I would go with Intel. Buying an AMD processor just makes more sense for individuals and small businesses, right now. It looks like that will also be true for large businesses, soon.

......an end to an argument......
???does such a thing exist???

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by Torter
Businesses aren't going away from Intel yet because their processors are PROVEN to be good ones over many years. It isn't because AMD doesn't have a better product. The companies are just waiting to see if AMD will maintain their status of putting out the best processors. If AMD's line of processors keep kicking the crap out of Intel's, for another year or so, you will see lots of companies going with AMD. Companies don't respond to things as quickly as individuals do. They can't afford a mistake in something so important.

Also, our company is going with Intel right now because we've had a lease contract with Dell for years. We are looking at AMD and watching!

I'm with AMD at home because the chips are better and cheaper. If I had several million dollars to toss away, I would go with flat panel displays, P4 processors, and RDRAM for everybody. That way, you can throw away more money with less fuss.

If Intel sees the light and puts out a better product at a better price, I would switch to Intel. I'm not loyal to any company. Actually, in a few years, Intel and AMD may have switched places. Then I would go with Intel. Buying an AMD processor just makes more sense for individuals and small businesses, right now. It looks like that will also be true for large businesses, soon.

......an end to an argument......
???does such a thing exist???


Lets not get off track here. AMD processors do Not kick the crap out of Intel CPUs and most know this to be true. They do offer the fastest speed at the lowest price but that is NOT the main conscern of a business. As a senior manager in a 150,000+ corporation, I can tell you that money is far from being a propirity for the big boys. Compatability is the major conscern. Software must be compatable with the machine. Heat is also another factor.

Many AMD fans misplace their anger for Intel when VIA is the true culprit as far as compatability issues but it is AMD's fault for being so dependent on an unstable platform like Via.

The heat issue is another conscern for businesses as well.

AMD fans usually remove their stock fans in hopes for somthing bigger and less dangerous. Businesses want a solution that needs no tweaking and has the least amount of compatability problems.

The solution is Intel and will remain Intel until AMD can address these problems.

[AMDGuy]

Originally posted by texmaster



Lets not get off track here. AMD processors do Not kick the crap out of Intel CPUs and most know this to be true. They do offer the fastest speed at the lowest price but that is NOT the main conscern of a business. As a senior manager in a 150,000+ corporation, I can tell you that money is far from being a propirity for the big boys. Compatability is the major conscern. Software must be compatable with the machine. Heat is also another factor.

Many AMD fans misplace their anger for Intel when VIA is the true culprit as far as compatability issues but it is AMD's fault for being so dependent on an unstable platform like Via.

The heat issue is another conscern for businesses as well.

AMD fans usually remove their stock fans in hopes for somthing bigger and less dangerous. Businesses want a solution that needs no tweaking and has the least amount of compatability problems.

The solution is Intel and will remain Intel until AMD can address these problems.

I disagree. The reason most buisnesses have Intel chips is because most OEM dealers (Compaq, Dell, HP, etc) had contracts with Intel to only use Intel chips. This is changing since Intel dropped the ball lately and lost their footing on supply. The got caught with their pants down and AMD stepped up to the plate with a better product for less. That's why Intel's stock dropped through the floor. Intel's stock as of 11:45am today is at $29.00 and change.

Dell and Compaq have both changed their contracts to now include AMD processors. As company's upgrade their systems I think you'll see more AMD processors move in.

[Billvill]

So much misinformation about water-cooling! Would you guys please get your facts straight before you start water bashing? With a very few exceptions, if you lost equipment to a water leak YOUR TO BLAME. You installed the system, right? Did you not tighten a clamp? Did you not push the hoses all the way down on the barbs? Did you drill a hole in the radiator when you where mounting it? Did you use cheap metal clamps in the resoviour that rusted and contaminated your system?

Water-cooling isn't for everyone it is only for the few that understand , respect and execute the installation of a water cooled rig properly.

Billy

[SteenkyBastage]

Originally posted by texmaster



Lets not get off track here. AMD processors do Not kick the crap out of Intel CPUs and most know this to be true. They do offer the fastest speed at the lowest price but that is NOT the main conscern of a business. As a senior manager in a 150,000+ corporation, I can tell you that money is far from being a propirity for the big boys. Compatability is the major conscern. Software must be compatable with the machine. Heat is also another factor.

Many AMD fans misplace their anger for Intel when VIA is the true culprit as far as compatability issues but it is AMD's fault for being so dependent on an unstable platform like Via.

The heat issue is another conscern for businesses as well.

AMD fans usually remove their stock fans in hopes for somthing bigger and less dangerous. Businesses want a solution that needs no tweaking and has the least amount of compatability problems.

The solution is Intel and will remain Intel until AMD can address these problems.

I tend to disagree with the compatibility problem with AMD as suggested. I build and maintain cpu's for our somewhat small company (15 workstations, a server, and a few laptop docking stations) and i find that i have no compatibility issues whatsoever with AMD and any software we use. the software used includes high end graphics, 3d animation, and large database software right down to the simple microsoft office products and (i'm ashamed to admit it but some people here still use it) AOL or other personal email clients.

the AMD based computers i build in general cost around $800 to $900 with 19' monitors and in no way are skimping on anything. whereas we COULD be paying the extra $200+ (and thereby getting an overall slower computer) for a Pentium based system, i have found not one reason beyond heat issues to persuade me to pay that extra cash out. our comany is by no means filthy rich, and by saving the extra $200+ per computer i am able to effectively gain an additional 25% more computers at the same cost, while also getting better performance out of each machine.

it boils down to whether you want to save money, or not. as well as considering whether you care that your computer runs several deg. C higher than an intel based computer would. for the average joe-sumer and as well as those (most) companies who actually NEED the extra cash, it's a simple choice.

and BTW, if your p4 only runs 3 deg. C over ambient, you WOULD see a performance increace with watercooling (provided you did it right) altho it wouldn't make squat for a difference.

i am assuming your ambient is measureing the case temp and the digi doc is the cpu temp. just on a humorous note, my home watercooling rig idles below ambient (case) temp by about 4 deg C, and (1.2Ghz at 1.47Ghz @1.85v) 93 deg F under full load. whereas with aircooling the un-oc'ed 1.2 was idleing at 97 F and full load of over 130 deg F.

no leaks, as the pumps most of us use are not pressure pumps, so long as you have the clamps attatched and dont go randomly flailing around the tubeing with an exacto knife (also not safe for fingers) you wont have leakeage problems if checked before installing.

just trying to combat the forces of evil (jokeing, nothing personal guys) and redeem watercooling and AMD's names from the filthy horrid slander that has been spewn forth in this thread!

[Cu]

Watercooling is most certainly the way to go. I have 3 pc's, 2 of which are watercooled. I was a complete novice when it came to watercooling a pc. I purchased the necessary supplies and watercooled 2 of my pc's. I'm yet to experience any problems or leaks. Huge difference in regards to air cooling vs. watercooling. I hated the fact that when I had all 3 pc's on, the noise level in my pc room was unbareable. I watercooled my pc's for the simple logic in quieting the amount of noise.

Avoiding leaks are the easiest of things. All that is needed is some common sense and some thought. I will soon post some pics of my set up and it will be quite obvious that my system rocks.

[AMDGuy]

Originally posted by Would71
Water-cooling does not need "saving" or "redeeming" by anyone. You're either willing to do it, or you're not. Nothing we say in here is going to ultimately change that. I personally am not willing to put the Universal Solvent in my system and pretend that I have the capability to keep it from ever getting loose. Other people may see it differently. That's their choice. You wanna do it? Hey, good for you. I just dislike fanatic behaviour of any kind, hence my last post was a bit teasing. (and if you should think I am flaming anyone, I'm not.. it's just my usual tone of response.. flaming would look much much much worse than this) :D

You may want to become more accepting of water. I too was scared of it at one time. I finally took the plunge and I'm glad I did. Air cooling is quickly hitting a wall. With processors becoming faster and powerful, it's unlikely air cooling will be able to keep up. I'd put my money on a bet that watercooling will be the norm even from PC manufacturers in the next two years or so.

Ahhhh, it feels good to be a pioneer LOL.

[SteenkyBastage]

i guess i didn't clarify that as well as i thought i did.

that part in parenthesis that said jokeing, meant i was jokeing. it was an attempt at lightening up the conversation with a bit of outlandish, exaggerated humor.

[AMDGuy]

Originally posted by Would71
RBD, you'll note that some of the responses in favor of water cooling aren't as joking as yours.. hence my reply. I just happened to use your words as a starting point.

AMDGuy, I do just fine with air cooling, especially considering I live in south Florida and it's almost always hot here. (much longer than people up north have to worry about) I get a laugh when I see people quoting ambient temperatures of 72 F, when the lowest I ever get on an average day is 78-80 F. I still manage to keep this 40% overclocked aluminum-connect beast under 50 C with a few well-placed fans.. no need to take the extra risk of water cooling. I don't care how much anyone defends it, I don't care how safe people think the equipment in question is. It IS an extra risk, and one that I am unwilling to take.

Perhaps one day I will change my mind, when the lowest temp. I can get on a chip is 70 C no matter what I do with air cooling, and the equipment all costs $50 or less per component to replace if something goes wrong. But until then, I have no such luxury, nor any need to put the Universal Solvent inside my case.

MBM's current readings with F@H and two instances of Tribes 2 running: (one dedicated server and one instance of the game)
43 C CPU, 28 C ambient

Just fine.

That's cool. To each their own. But I'd wager that your temp is not 43C. Your using the thermistor to determine that temp. Hook up a Digital probe and see if that's actually what it is. I'd wager your temps are more than likely around 50C or more under load.

[SteenkyBastage]

i hear where you're coming from, and i'm in no way an anti-aircooling freak. in fact, i think for most of the people out there, watercooling isn't a cooling necessity, but more like the luxury of quietness.

and i completely understand the water phobia (took me quite a long time to get over that fear of mixing electronics with watercooling), but overall i do feel the need to point out that watercooling isn't as horrid and extremely risky as both it sounds, and as some people claim it is.

is it risky if you do not take the necessary precations? YES!

but overall, if you take the time to do the research and get familiar with the proper methods and equipment needs, i really think the risk to your wallet (you can easily spend $100 to $200+) is greater than the risk of a leak.

once again, i'm not pushing for a world-domination plot of "EVERYONE MUST WATERCOOL OR DIE!" but instead suggest to those who may be interested that it is a valid and safe (albeit expensive up front) alternative, IF you use your head and take your time.

[AMDGuy]

Originally posted by Would71
One thing I'd like to point out in your statement, AMDGuy. I highly doubt that watercooling will be "the norm" anytime soon. We as performance enthusiasts do NOT ultimately drive the market. The average PC owner does. Imagine the tech support call when someone asks why their machine isn't running and the tech says "oh you need to add more water to the cooling system".. the person will likely tell the tech support person that he or she is insane, and throw that PC to the curb and go buy something that doesn't require such maintenance.

Being a performance enthusiast of just about any kind means you are willing to put more work into something than the average user of that item.. be it cars or computers or boats or whatever. Remember that your perspective is not the same as someone who just bought the thing to play a couple games and Email their loved ones.

I'm not talking about performance users. I'm talking about standard PCs. With the current rate of power consumption by processors something's gonna give. Either a new silicone will be developed that runs cooler, a new process will be designed, or new coolers will come onto the market. Air just doesn't really cut it anymore unless you like the sound of a 747 sitting in your house.

I built a friend a system using a 1gig. I didn't OC it at all. Put the recommended (from the PC shop) heatsink on it. I think it was a Globalwin FBK32 or something like that. It was loud as hell. Kept his system idle at 38C. Full load was around 45C. Air just doesn't have enough umph to absorb all the heat new processors will likely put out unless something changes. That is the point I was making.

[SteenkyBastage]

you may want to check your bios for the correct core voltage. i have found that with my mb and several i've built for work, it consistantly reads higher voltage then what is actually being put out.
as in...my 1.85v core voltage will read 1.87+ ALWAYS. and i believe having read other posts where people have the same results...i dont know if it's a via thing or what, but it would be worth checking the bios to see.

[AMDGuy]

Originally posted by Would71
Now for what Radiate says it should be: (going by the .18 C/W quoted on www.millennium-thermal.com )

It's possible, but I think unlikely that your actually getting a .18 C/W. I'd say it's more like .20 - .22.

If that's the case, that is a good temp for you OC especially with that voltage. According to your numbers you're better than my watercooled system.

[SteenkyBastage]

and another plus note on the c/w thing. i found that with water, the more watts your cpu puts out, the LOWER the c/w ratio gets. if i run my 1.2 un-oc'ed my rig gets .14 whereas at 1.47 and upping the voltage it bumps the ratio down to .13. also worth noting that there is VERY little temp difference between 1.2 and 1.47...leading me to believe that the watercooling setup i have is actually overkill. heh

[Fjeld]

What a setback :8
In my opinion; skipping the watercooling makes me reach for some earshells! All those noisy fans! Gah!
A properly buildt watersystem may be left for months (and years?), w.o. any kind of maintenance. Apart from removing some dust, now and then, as for the air-cooled system.
If your pump was the only reason, go for a proper pump! May be a wish for christmas? :)

[Fjeld]

Originally posted by Billvill
So much misinformation about water-cooling! Would you guys please get your facts straight before you start water bashing? With a very few exceptions, if you lost equipment to a water leak YOUR TO BLAME. You installed the system, right? Did you not tighten a clamp? Did you not push the hoses all the way down on the barbs? Did you drill a hole in the radiator when you where mounting it? Did you use cheap metal clamps in the resoviour that rusted and contaminated your system?

Water-cooling isn't for everyone it is only for the few that understand , respect and execute the installation of a water cooled rig properly.

Billy

Juust right Billy!! When you do a proper WC assy, you should´t be worried at all! Of course, such things aren´t a straight-forward job for everybody! This said without stepping on any soar toes! Hopefully.
Just listen to the silence: No noisy Orb´s :)

[Flash]

I say to each his own. If air works for you, more power to you.

I don't doubt that I could get similar results with air cooling, but for me the very small risk of a leak is vastly outweighed by relative quiet of my system compared to a comparably air-cooled system.

Incidentally, I think the riskiest thing about overclocking--water or air--is installing the HS or WB, and in that regard I think water is safer than air. Most water blocks are much lighter and lower-profile than high performance heatsinks, which can easily shear off a cup lug. Also better water blocks use the 4-hole mounting method, which is very safe and secure. Are there any HSFs that use this method?

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by AMDGuy


I disagree. The reason most buisnesses have Intel chips is because most OEM dealers (Compaq, Dell, HP, etc) had contracts with Intel to only use Intel chips. This is changing since Intel dropped the ball lately and lost their footing on supply. The got caught with their pants down and AMD stepped up to the plate with a better product for less. That's why Intel's stock dropped through the floor. Intel's stock as of 11:45am today is at $29.00 and change.

Dell and Compaq have both changed their contracts to now include AMD processors. As company's upgrade their systems I think you'll see more AMD processors move in.

I don't see AMD running away with any stock awards either.

I think we can all agree that AMDs require more time to set up software wise and that companies will look at.

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by Billvill
So much misinformation about water-cooling! Would you guys please get your facts straight before you start water bashing? With a very few exceptions, if you lost equipment to a water leak YOUR TO BLAME. You installed the system, right? Did you not tighten a clamp? Did you not push the hoses all the way down on the barbs? Did you drill a hole in the radiator when you where mounting it? Did you use cheap metal clamps in the resoviour that rusted and contaminated your system?

Water-cooling isn't for everyone it is only for the few that understand , respect and execute the installation of a water cooled rig properly.

Billy

I don't think people were saying that it was a bad idea just that it was more difficult to set up and had more dangers than just air.

And that is true.

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by Rabid Bob Dole


I tend to disagree with the compatibility problem with AMD as suggested. I build and maintain cpu's for our somewhat small company (15 workstations, a server, and a few laptop docking stations) and i find that i have no compatibility issues whatsoever with AMD and any software we use. the software used includes high end graphics, 3d animation, and large database software right down to the simple microsoft office products and (i'm ashamed to admit it but some people here still use it) AOL or other personal email clients.

the AMD based computers i build in general cost around $800 to $900 with 19' monitors and in no way are skimping on anything. whereas we COULD be paying the extra $200+ (and thereby getting an overall slower computer) for a Pentium based system, i have found not one reason beyond heat issues to persuade me to pay that extra cash out. our comany is by no means filthy rich, and by saving the extra $200+ per computer i am able to effectively gain an additional 25% more computers at the same cost, while also getting better performance out of each machine.

it boils down to whether you want to save money, or not. as well as considering whether you care that your computer runs several deg. C higher than an intel based computer would. for the average joe-sumer and as well as those (most) companies who actually NEED the extra cash, it's a simple choice.

and BTW, if your p4 only runs 3 deg. C over ambient, you WOULD see a performance increace with watercooling (provided you did it right) altho it wouldn't make squat for a difference.

i am assuming your ambient is measureing the case temp and the digi doc is the cpu temp. just on a humorous note, my home watercooling rig idles below ambient (case) temp by about 4 deg C, and (1.2Ghz at 1.47Ghz @1.85v) 93 deg F under full load. whereas with aircooling the un-oc'ed 1.2 was idleing at 97 F and full load of over 130 deg F.

no leaks, as the pumps most of us use are not pressure pumps, so long as you have the clamps attatched and dont go randomly flailing around the tubeing with an exacto knife (also not safe for fingers) you wont have leakeage problems if checked before installing.

just trying to combat the forces of evil (jokeing, nothing personal guys) and redeem watercooling and AMD's names from the filthy horrid slander that has been spewn forth in this thread!

Via motherboards still require all in one drivers when installing a new system correct? Enough said.

Thats all the excuse an exec needs not to use AMD. You may ifnd it irrational but they see it as a waste of time and energy. Time is more important than money in many big projects.

Your company values money over time. The company I work for is extremely time oriented. Things have to be done yesterday.

Lets take your analysis of an intel costing 200 dollars more.

Many execs would rather pay that then have to worry about compatability problems with certain programs and/or certain hardware and pay the technician to fix these and future problems.

When I talk about my system I am talking about the read of the CPU only. The case temp hardly changes a degree so you are incorrect that I would see a difference with watercooling.

No one is saying that water cooling is "evil" just harder to set up with little to no benifit if you set up a serious air cooled system. No matter how good your water cooling system is, without a peltier you can't get any cooler than room temp.

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by Would71


And Intel is dragging down the whole industry by lying to itself and saying that AMD's competition has nothing to do with its woes, to respond to your first line.

To respond to your second line, I don't think we can all agree on that. I don't agree on it, and I'm probably not the only one, so that renders any blanket statements false. Thank you, come again.

I never said Intel's stock going down had nothing to do with AMD. Dont assume.

So you are saying that Via platforms are just as stable as Intel platforms?

You must be joking. Its not even worth comparing.

[SteenkyBastage]

4 in 1 drivers...man, i hate that one extra reboot involved in installing those drivers...takes a whole extra 39 seconds! why dont we start boycotting installing programs, after all, you SHOULD reboot after installing anything to avoid potential problems. (i can see it now..."NO MORE PHOTOSHOP! it will require 4 minutes to install, and 2 minutes to reboot!" for that matter, let's do away with passwords and logging in...that takes too much time.)

not all AMD boards use VIA chipsets...fortunately AMD seems to be (at least for their dual athlon MP serverboards) realizing that they need to make their own chipsets. and also, AMD is just now getting into the "workstation" business... if they can keep up the good work and keep the MP systems stable, they MAY find a larger market with the big boys that the corporate comanies might buy from (dell, gateway...).

i, however, dont bother spending the ludicrous ammounts of cash that dell or the other OEM's require. my job description includes getting/buying/building (any way i see fit) new cpu's. and i find that saving $200 bucks a pop over intel, (or a hefty $500+ a pop over an intel bought from dell), money is a far greater benefit than if i paid the extra cash and didn't have to spend the extra 2 hours to build a system.

yes, i realize "big" companies dont see it that way...but hey, if you have the billions of extra cash to waste, go for it! i know if i had that kinda spare change i wouldn't care one way or another if i got a slower, more expensive system, i'd simply buy 10 of the slower expensive systems and move on (saving me 6.5 minutes of rebooting time since i dont have to install the 4 in 1 drivers!).

[ReTiCuLeX]

I hate to say it but I agree with texmaster I have a 1.4Ghz Pentium 4 , and I put it to the test with my 1.4 AMD. I put my geforce 3 in my AMD 1st and I got around 4460 something in 3dmark 2001. When I put my geforce 3 in my pentium 4 I scored around 5900 something I mean geez I expected my darn AMD to blow away my intel , I guess not . My p4 has less ram too it has 128RDRAM compared to my AMD with 512mbs DDR PC2100 ram. Intel will always have its stability and graphics performence over AMD until AMD starts realising they wana do stuff with the big boys like puting AMD's in companyies. Every store I been to I asked about why my amd freezes blah blah blah and they replyed saying , we donot deal with fixing AMD neither use them for our own selves , they said they distribute the processors and stuff etc... but they said its basically complete crap it has no stability and in buisness applications it does poorly. This is just my own experiance with AMD and Intel and the info I collected. Iam here posting my opinion and some facts so plz donot take this offensive I like AMD but it still has some issues over Intel.
My 2cents.

[Newbie_Doo]

Let's keep this thread on-topic. If you guys want to start the Intel v. AMD debate, take it to the "Debates" board. Or better still, join one of those debates that are already in progress.

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by Would71


Hmmm, I coulda swore I subscribed to the threads I did to avoid the Intel Brown-Shirts because I was tired of their inane rhetoric.. but anyway..

My last four or five boards were VIA-based, (if you count my old Super-7 boards as well) and now I have an AMD 760-based. Overall, I would not complain about the chipsets, except for one or two minor issues in some cases. (probably not even what you'd expect) I don't have a problem with installing drivers for them, my video card gets along just fine with all of them, and I highly doubt that Intel could provide me with a chipset that would please me more than what I've already used. In fact, I'd be pretty upset with most of Intel's current solutions, as the decently-performing ones would force me to buy RAMBUSt memory. I like my half-gig of DDR, thanks.

Why have I been through so many boards? Features.. testing.. etc. Not because the chipsets were crap.

Oh I see, because I tell the truth about VIA stability problems I'm an "Intel Brown Shirt"? LOL Try sticking to the suject. Less flamming, you will look better.

I know you are going to find this hard to believe but not everyone enjoys tweaking their machines to get them to perform. Big businesses see time as their enemy, not cost. Via platforms on average are less stable and require more time setting up than their intel counterparts, Period. This isn't brain surgery its common fact no matter what you personally experienced this statement overall remains true.

For whatever reason, Via platforms are less compatable and require more time to set up than Intel platforms and that simply has not changed.


And I'm so glad you like your DDR Ram. Name calling however is extremely childish. I mean really RAMBUrst? Please. Rambus is good ram with great bandwith capability. Just because you don't buy it doens't make it bad. I know this is probably a shock to you but just let it sink in for a while. And I have a half gig of Rambus in my machine friend so lets not go there ok?

I asked you the question before and I'll ask it again.

Are you saying that VIA platforms are just as stable as Intel platforms for the overall market?

Hint: Your personal experience doesn't count in the big picture.

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by Rabid Bob Dole
4 in 1 drivers...man, i hate that one extra reboot involved in installing those drivers...takes a whole extra 39 seconds! why dont we start boycotting installing programs, after all, you SHOULD reboot after installing anything to avoid potential problems. (i can see it now..."NO MORE PHOTOSHOP! it will require 4 minutes to install, and 2 minutes to reboot!" for that matter, let's do away with passwords and logging in...that takes too much time.)

not all AMD boards use VIA chipsets...fortunately AMD seems to be (at least for their dual athlon MP serverboards) realizing that they need to make their own chipsets. and also, AMD is just now getting into the "workstation" business... if they can keep up the good work and keep the MP systems stable, they MAY find a larger market with the big boys that the corporate comanies might buy from (dell, gateway...).

i, however, dont bother spending the ludicrous ammounts of cash that dell or the other OEM's require. my job description includes getting/buying/building (any way i see fit) new cpu's. and i find that saving $200 bucks a pop over intel, (or a hefty $500+ a pop over an intel bought from dell), money is a far greater benefit than if i paid the extra cash and didn't have to spend the extra 2 hours to build a system.

yes, i realize "big" companies dont see it that way...but hey, if you have the billions of extra cash to waste, go for it! i know if i had that kinda spare change i wouldn't care one way or another if i got a slower, more expensive system, i'd simply buy 10 of the slower expensive systems and move on (saving me 6.5 minutes of rebooting time since i dont have to install the 4 in 1 drivers!).

If the 4 in one drivers were the only drawback you would be partially correct but it is not.

[Michael_Myers]

"Amd processors RUN CIRCLES AROUND pentium chips"

Nuff said.

get over it

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by Michael_Myers
"Amd processors RUN CIRCLES AROUND pentium chips"

Nuff said.

get over it

Thats about as accurate as Bill Clinton's new Biography

[SteenkyBastage]

it's a give and take situation, athlons run circles around pentiums? not always...go try to compare an athlon vs a p4 in a sse optomized program. the p4 will smoke the athlon, but hey... i do agree that IN GENERAL the athlons will OVERALL outperform the pentiums.

[killem1x1]

Ahhh, I have been watching this thread for a while, and as we can all plainly see, it has not stayed on-topic. There are 3 -4 debates going on because someone decided to go back to air? I mean Geez guys cumon, lighten up here.
I would like to address the original post, and If I waiver I'm sorry, here goes:
Air cooling will be the only thing used by the masses for many years to come. Eventually the Vapochills, and Kryo's will be commonplace. This will take years.
For now, we all know that water is 25x better at cooling. Proven over, and over, and over. In regards to maint., water is no harder than an Air system. It is not difficult to install, and Alas if you like some white noise then you'd love the sound of a small aquarium pump.
Now, where are we? In the Overclockers.com forums. Most of us are here because we are the few that will push our machines. The question is, HOW far will you push it?
It seems so simple to me:
LEVEL ONE = The best HSF+Chipset cooler+Video Card Cooler+Ramsinks, with a proper case fan combination.

LEVEL TWO = The best waterblock with a rad, but still using Video Card Cooler+Ramsinks, with a proper case fan combination.

LEVEL THREE = The best waterblock with a rad or/and a Bong +Video card water block, with a proper case fan combination.

LEVEL FOUR = The best waterblock with a rad or/and a Bong +Peltier / TEC +Video card water block, with a proper case fan combination.

LEVEL FIVE = The best waterblock with a rad or/and a Bong +Peltier / TEC +Video card water block +Chipset waterblock, with a proper case fan combination.

LEVEL SIX = Vapochills, and KryOtechs with slight modifications to the chiller ins/outs

LEVEL SEVEN = IMHO this is the experimenting level. The use of Flourinert, or Mineral Oil for partial / complete submersion, using LN2/Dry Ice pellets for injection purposes.

Obviosly, all of these things have been done, but what works the best for you? Only you know, if you try them. You can only learn from other peoples mistakes, If you are trying to accomplish something similar to what they themselves are trying to accomplish. If you never try water on your particular system how will you know it's not better? Just because soemone told you so?
Live and learn, but Live!

[AMDGuy]

killem1x1,

Excellent post!

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by Rabid Bob Dole
it's a give and take situation, athlons run circles around pentiums? not always...go try to compare an athlon vs a p4 in a sse optomized program. the p4 will smoke the athlon, but hey... i do agree that IN GENERAL the athlons will OVERALL outperform the pentiums.

I'll agree with that.

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by killem1x1
For now, we all know that water is 25x better at cooling. Proven over, and over, and over. In regards to maint., water is no harder than an Air system. It is not difficult to install, and Alas if you like some white noise then you'd love the sound of a small aquarium pump.


Again, I will have to respectfully disagree with you. Air and water ALONE cannot cool better than each other. That is just fact. Granted, it takes a bunch of fans to cool as water does but it cannot get any colder without help.

Water alone cannot get below room temperature.

Neither can air.

Now water CAN be used with peltiers more effectivly than air but my main argument remains the same.

The two alone even at extreme levels cannot get below room temperature alone. Period.

[killem1x1]

Originally posted by texmaster


Again, I will have to respectfully disagree with you. Air and water ALONE cannot cool better than each other. That is just fact. Granted, it takes a bunch of fans to cool as water does but it cannot get any colder without help.

Water alone cannot get below room temperature.

Neither can air.

Now water CAN be used with peltiers more effectivly than air but my main argument remains the same.

The two alone even at extreme levels cannot get below room temperature alone. Period.

You are exactly right, and even a water cooled system needs fans on the Rad to cool properly, but give me your opinion on it this way:

When looking through the cpu database, or the sigs throughout this forum, you will see the best overall temps (exclude pelts alltogether at this point), with watercooled systems. IMHO it's because it is much easier to setup a simple watercooling situation, than an extreme air cooled one.
I am genuinely doing everything I can to get the "perfect" air-cooled situation, on one machine, and the same in water next to it. I have ordered a few more fans, a Swiftech MC462 that will arrive Sat delivery in the morning. I have everything I need at this point to accomplish both. I will not add the 156w pelt to the water machine, until I am confident I have the most out of it. I will start with one rad, add a second, then a bong, then the pelt.

.., but I still feel strongly that a simple water system (rad,pump, and block, is much easier than an extreme air system(proper fan size, cfm, and obviously he placement is critical.)

I think that may be the key element, fan placement. How many people know exactly where to place the fans, and exactly what size and cfm? I certainly don't, but with water you don't need to know placement. Or rather it doesn't matter.

I think your sig or one of your posts stated you were only 4 above ambient? Sorry if I'm wrong that just seems to be what I remember. If so, then you must know the things required to setup the "Extreme Air Solution" I'm looking for. Would you be kind enough to share the details of your system setup, case style fan sizes, and how long it took to get it to that point? It would be greatly appreciated. As I am unable to find those details after hours of searching, but for water it is plain and straightforward. (Again, until you add a pelt in the equation)

BTW thanks AMDguy, I try to put thought in threads like these, it can affect the way people spend the dough we all work so hard for. I know that I've spent hundreds on all types of cooling equipment on my quest, and the best advice I've had has been from right here!

[maha_x]

Water doesnt cool "colder", it cools "more". Water can move more heat away from the CPU. Water or air obviously cant cool below ambient, but water does absorb more heat than air. Water is silent, it can take away more effectively the 100W of heat of the most extreme OC and a non pressured well built system shouldnt be more risky than any air cooler.

In my oppinion.

Even car engines were air cooled at start. But water just rules nowadays.

I think water will become main stream. Starting from the home PC's and much later for the "big businesses". I just dont like too much of the watercooling cases they offer currently. Id rather see somesort of compact watercooler/PSU combo or some. And some sort of standard for hose connectors so we can use different parts from different manufacturers. we could be buying stock hoses and radiators for the standadised connector.

[BF_TEXMASTER]

Originally posted by killem1x1


You are exactly right, and even a water cooled system needs fans on the Rad to cool properly, but give me your opinion on it this way:

When looking through the cpu database, or the sigs throughout this forum, you will see the best overall temps (exclude pelts alltogether at this point), with watercooled systems. IMHO it's because it is much easier to setup a simple watercooling situation, than an extreme air cooled one.
I am genuinely doing everything I can to get the "perfect" air-cooled situation, on one machine, and the same in water next to it. I have ordered a few more fans, a Swiftech MC462 that will arrive Sat delivery in the morning. I have everything I need at this point to accomplish both. I will not add the 156w pelt to the water machine, until I am confident I have the most out of it. I will start with one rad, add a second, then a bong, then the pelt.

.., but I still feel strongly that a simple water system (rad,pump, and block, is much easier than an extreme air system(proper fan size, cfm, and obviously he placement is critical.)

I think that may be the key element, fan placement. How many people know exactly where to place the fans, and exactly what size and cfm? I certainly don't, but with water you don't need to know placement. Or rather it doesn't matter.

I think your sig or one of your posts stated you were only 4 above ambient? Sorry if I'm wrong that just seems to be what I remember. If so, then you must know the things required to setup the "Extreme Air Solution" I'm looking for. Would you be kind enough to share the details of your system setup, case style fan sizes, and how long it took to get it to that point? It would be greatly appreciated. As I am unable to find those details after hours of searching, but for water it is plain and straightforward. (Again, until you add a pelt in the equation)

BTW thanks AMDguy, I try to put thought in threads like these, it can affect the way people spend the dough we all work so hard for. I know that I've spent hundreds on all types of cooling equipment on my quest, and the best advice I've had has been from right here!


Most people who are extreme favor less noise and don't want to take the time to learn how to baffel the noise. I think thats the main reason you see more water cooled systems.

Not to mention that 99% of all extreme magazine say water is the way to go.

And I said I never hit 3 degrees above ambient and I would be happy to explain my system.

There are two articles that do it best:

http://www.overclockers.com/tips316
http://www.overclockers.com/tips405