N40 needing its own rail of power?

[OBLIVIONLORD]

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=15210

"It seems each of those connectors will need to be plugged into a separate power rail, and nothing else can be plugged into that rail. OK, they will let you put a fan into it, but anything more is strictly forbidden. You can just hear the good folk at Antec doing the happy dance. Power supply upgrade time people."

So I have a 350watt PS laying around.. Can I hook that to just the N40 itself? 350watt power supply just for a video card ... O.o

[Buhammot]

Too bad the logic behind that is irrelevant. Each of the rails all solder to the same contacts within the PSU, so why would it matter? Besides, the configuration of the wires and connectors should be that any plug within the series will recieve the same amount of power if needed.

[Overclocker550]

I can see 5 r420s being sold for each nv40 that gets sold. I dont know about the nv40 being faster than the r420 either but with the way nvidia optimizes their drivers to compromize IQ then yea. itll be like how much better the 9800 pro was over the fx5900u all over again.

[Phoenix87]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
I can see 5 r420s being sold for each nv40 that gets sold. I dont know about the nv40 being faster than the r420 either but with the way nvidia optimizes their drivers to compromize IQ then yea. itll be like how much better the 9800 pro was over the fx5900u all over again.

Wtf? The article and this thread are about the power consumption of the nv40, not your deskjob predictions on the actions of nvidia and their sells.

[Sentential]

I saw that....

That'll put those Antec True's to the test:thup:

[dreIU]

Originally posted by Sentential
I saw that....

That'll put those Antec True's to the test:thup:

They better hold up, I just got me on of those :eek:

[Overclocker550]

Originally posted by Phoenix87


Wtf? The article and this thread are about the power consumption of the nv40, not your deskjob predictions on the actions of nvidia and their sells.


its common sense. would you rather have a faster r420 that runs cooler and uses less power? :rolleyes:

[OBLIVIONLORD]

When it says connected into its own power rail then what does that mean? All my connections on my 430 are all used except for the sata hd connectors. Like i said eariler i have a 350 watt laying around. Can I use this just for the video card?

[Violator]

Basically it looks like it'll need it's own PSU connector i.e. one that is not shared with another device (except possibly a fan, no high-drain devices). No big deal, my 9800Pro runs best when it has its own dedicated line as well.

Won't need a new PSU if you've a semi-decent one already.


its common sense. would you rather have a faster r420 that runs cooler and uses less power?

Without any hard evidence about either card, where are your facts to back that statement up?

[FIZZ3]

This seems to be limited to the AGP versions of the cards- the PCI express slot supplies ample power and should be able to drive the card without external connectors.

[Overclocker550]

no the sad thing is the pci-e verson will still need but ONE molex connector. the nv40 would need to be at least 10% faster with equal iq for people to put with 2 molxes and it taking up 2 slots and getting very hot

[OBLIVIONLORD]

I wonder how much power consumption the card will be since Im using a 430 true.

Welp I guess its time to start reading up on that PSU mod connecting them together just to use this damn video card haha.

[PreservedSwine]

Quick, buy stock in the PSU companies!

[SimGuy]

This just in.

PC Power & Cooling stock flies through the roof as record sales of the NV40 cause people to upgrade their PSU's like mad :)

I still don't see why they won't adapt an external PSU design with a 120V to 12V transformer ALA Voodoo 5 6000 series. Would solve all the problems of internal power consumption and only add a few extra dollars to the overall cost of the package.

[FIZZ3]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
no the sad thing is the pci-e verson will still need but ONE molex connector.

I seriously doubt that. The AGP8x (non-Pro) interface provides for 25W, compared to 75W of PCI Express. The typical peak draw of the most powerful AGP cards out today is around 41W.
Given these numbers, I see no reason why additional molexes would be needed with the next generation of cards.

[shiltz]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
no the sad thing is the pci-e verson will still need but ONE molex connector. the nv40 would need to be at least 10% faster with equal iq for people to put with 2 molxes and it taking up 2 slots and getting very hot

not really, people who are willing to shell out $500+ for a video card really don't give a damn about 2 slots, 2 molex connectors, or the card it self getting hot because they have good cases with proper air flow so the heat isn't an issue and they aren't running in a little cramped e-machine with a 250 watt PSU and only 1 PCI next to the AGP, anyone who is concerned about it taking up the PCI slot next to it is foolish anyways cause you don't want to have anything in that slot in the first place cause it causes problems.

heck it the NV40 or the R420 could take 3 molex connectors and 3 PCI slots and it doesn't matter to me, I have all of 2 PCI cards, 1 sound card and 1 water pump relay card, most people don't even have that many now adays, heck my card takes 2 PCI slots next to it right now cause of the water block, doesn't make a bit of difference.

[Sentential]

I think we are overlooking a major factor!...... This power has got to go somewhere!

The heat from this thing must be incredible....

God forbid any dumbass from putting an NV40 into a Tejas/Prescott rig :eek:... j00 could heat the whole damn house

[Overclocker550]

or start a fire LOL

[mrgreenjeans]

I've already got my vis card on a separate rail so not an issue. and I think with nVidia's hit on the 5800 heat issue it will be a non-issue with this one. I doubt they'd make the same mistake twice.

[shiltz]

that's why I love water cooling, heat = non-issue, even my 5900u which at stock speeds with the reffence cooling can hit 90C only hits around 30C under full load while over clocked more than 25% over stock. I also love dual PSU's, I can have a dedicated PSU to it if I wanted too.

[Phoenix87]

Originally posted by Overclocker550



its common sense. would you rather have a faster r420 that runs cooler and uses less power? :rolleyes:
Please tell me, where the hell do you get your info?

[micamica1217]

Originally posted by Phoenix87

Please tell me, where the hell do you get your info?

he doesn't have any info as you well know....
he just likes to state his opinion as fact.

mica

[OBLIVIONLORD]

My psu has no more free connectors let alone having to only use 1 wire thats not branching but, to only conenct to the video card alone.

[Sentential]

I doubt they'd make the same mistake twice.
U sure about that? The inquirer mentioned that the stock solution will use heatpipe(s).

OC550 was assuming that it would run cooler since the R420's stock cooling is aluminimum version of the XT's cooler

[kct2]

Originally posted by Buhammot
Too bad the logic behind that is irrelevant. Each of the rails all solder to the same contacts within the PSU, so why would it matter?

I'll tell you why it matters. The PSU wire is 18AWG and only good for 9 amps (I've seen varying numbers, but all close to 9). My guess is the NV40 (if this rumor is true) pulls close to 9 amps from each connection. If you were to connect an NV40 based card and 2 other devices to a single PS lead you would be close to overloading the wire. An overloaded wire creates more heat, which starts to melt the insulator which then is more subject to failing which could cause a short. So Nvidia is very careful to specify no other devices on the lead. I’m sure they figured in a large safety factor, but probably for good reason. This could turn into a big issue if people ignore this requirement.

[xtrmeocr]

so you think the nv40 needs ~240 watts? :rolleyes:

[Overclocker550]

Originally posted by Phoenix87

Please tell me, where the hell do you get your info?


http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20040408100025.html


now they say ati will be 16 pipes as well. theres no doubt the r420 is waaaaaaaaaay ahead now

[kct2]

Originally posted by xtrmeocr
so you think the nv40 needs ~240 watts? :rolleyes:

No...

Instead of rolling your eyes why don't you propose a more reasonable explaination for the 2 dedicated lead requirement. Or at least explain how you took my comments to mean it "needs ~240watts"...

[OBLIVIONLORD]

I dont see how you can say the 420 is way ahead when both the n40 and 420 have 16 pipes. If performance is about the same with both cards then the 420 will be better cause of less power consumption. Thats my opinion though. Althouhg we can only conclude any diffrence when both card are released and see benchmark results.

[xtrmeocr]

you said it would pull close to 9 amps per connection. 9 amps at 12 volts x2 = 216 watts then add in the 25 or 35(dont remeber watts from the agp bus) and there you go

[xtrmeocr]

Originally posted by Overclocker550



http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20040408100025.html


now they say ati will be 16 pipes as well. theres no doubt the r420 is waaaaaaaaaay ahead now

or could it be ATI has seen how the n40 preforms and had to come out with a 16 pipeline card from the get go?

[kct2]

Originally posted by xtrmeocr
you said it would pull close to 9 amps per connection. 9 amps at 12 volts x2 = 216 watts then add in the 25 or 35(dont remeber watts from the agp bus) and there you go


It is helpful if you read the entire post at take it as a whole. The "2 other devices" was an important part and the "safety factor" seemed important enough for me to type it. I didn't mean to say the NV40 alone uses 18amps.

Basically Nvidia knows their card has a high amp draw (whatever it may be), and they know they have no control over what else you put on a lead (some people run many devices off one lead using Y-adapters). So they specify no other connections to avoid any problems. Not everyone with money to spend on an expensive video card is smart in the ways of electronics.

[Overclocker550]

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=14878

no reason ati will go 16 pipes, their 12 pipes is way faster than the nv40 already LOL

[kct2]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=14878

no reason ati will go 16 pipes, their 12 pipes is way faster than the nv40 already LOL

Where in that article does it say the R420 will be faster?

If anything was ever a case of wait and see, this is. This debate is pointless, nothing anyone says or thinks can be proven correct or incorrect until the actual products are in people's hands.

[xtrmeocr]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=14878

no reason ati will go 16 pipes, their 12 pipes is way faster than the nv40 already LOL

if their 12 pipeline card was way faster, they would sell that. the yield would be way higher on a 12 pipe card then a 16. higher yield = more money. businesses operate on numbers.

[OBLIVIONLORD]

Since I haven't any wire left for the 2 molex connectors, Im forced to do that 2 battery mod.. right?

[kct2]

Originally posted by OBLIVIONLORD
Since I haven't any wire left for the 2 molex connectors, Im forced to do that 2 battery mod.. right?

I think you'll be forced to not buy a NV40 based card, or buy a PS with more power connectors. Maybe we will start seeing PSUs with 'video card only' connectors.

[SimGuy]

Originally posted by OBLIVIONLORD
Since I haven't any wire left for the 2 molex connectors, Im forced to do that 2 battery mod.. right?

Or find an old AT PSU with a hardware switch and use that to power your NV40 (although I have no idea how you would mount an extra PSU into the case.... unless you have space for it).

Then there's the little trouble of always flicking on the PSU power switch while starting up the system...

[Overclocker550]

Originally posted by xtrmeocr


if their 12 pipeline card was way faster, they would sell that. the yield would be way higher on a 12 pipe card then a 16. higher yield = more money. businesses operate on numbers.


ati may just be overly cautious or they think the nv40 is really 16 pipes but it may or may not be. They probably would rather beat the nv40 by 50% than lose to it. perhaps the 12 pipe cards will become non pros while the pro/xt use 16 pipes so they win both ways. if the 16 pipe eats the nv40 by that much, just charge $700 for it and $500 for the 12 pipe cards LOL

[TruckyJ]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
now they say ati will be 16 pipes as well. theres no doubt the r420 is waaaaaaaaaay ahead now


ati may just be overly cautious or they think the nv40 is really 16 pipes but it may or may not be. They probably would rather beat the nv40 by 50% than lose to it. perhaps the 12 pipe cards will become non pros while the pro/xt use 16 pipes so they win both ways. if the 16 pipe eats the nv40 by that much, just charge $700 for it and $500 for the 12 pipe cards LOL


Way ahead? Remove your head from rear end man. There is no reason to assume anything in terms of what will "eat", or "own" at this point in the game. It's completely assinine to make these statements OC550. At what point did you jump on the ATI bandwagon anyways? Will ATI's product be good? I think it will, but I think the NV40 will be good as well.

Nvidia will be competative, its not like they are out of the game. Plus they need to at least MAINTAIN thier market share...not loose it as they have been.

And for the love of God, I hope thier card rocks. Any enthusiest knows that it's in thier best intrest for Nvidia to remain competative. It would be awesome if both of the cards were very simular in performance and a price war resulted. Heck, I wouldn't mind buying a little christmas present for myself this year...hehehe.

[Overclocker550]

we would all like that but nvidia have been behind 2 strait years.
the last time they ever were way ahead was with their ti4x00 cards then bam ati releases the 9500 pro which matches the ti4600, the 9700 that eats it and the pro that just laughs. Nvidia gets mad, rushes out the fx5800 which was a disaster and made ati laugh even harder. I think the fx5900 came first. ati calmly upped the clocks of the 9700 pro, added a couple useless things and called it the 9800 pro and laughed some more knowing the fx5900 hardly touches the 9700 pro, nevermind the 9800 pro and now xt! the fx5200 is crap, the 5600 a bit better but gets eaten by the 9600(pro) the 5700 is useless against the 9600xt and nvidias own 5900 for like $20 more. The only good cards nvidia still really have are the aging ti4x00 which perform great and make great midrange cards for the money, but its time they get serious about competiting against ati. hopefully the nv40 will beat a 9800xt in more than half the benchmarks :)


fun!!!!!!!!!!!!


sitting in the left with two molexes and green PCB is the nv40 while sitting in the righ with a single molex and flashy red PCB is the mighty r420, grinnin from chip to chip :D the refree blows the whistle and the r420 charges towards the wimpy nv40 and knocks it out with 1 punch :stick: the r420 laughs like crazy and asks for a real opponent, not a little boy then says ill come back when nvidia gets for real. He calls his little bro, the 9800xt and tells him to tease the nv40. both fight, the nv40 finally manages to knock out the 9800xt. Badly bruised both physically and with wounded pride the nv40 utters a faint squeek "I-I-I won......" the 9800xt soon gets up, takes a drink of distilled water, wipes its silcon with a clean towel and says well done nv40 you managed to beat me, the r420s teeny tiny little brother. he then laughts and said good game and leaves! :toast: :banana:

[TruckyJ]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
sitting in the left with two molexes and green PCB is the nv40 while sitting in the righ with a single molex and flashy red PCB..............




L O L :D :rolleyes: :D


Total unadulterated insolence. You crack me up dude. I don't agree about the 9800pro's core adjustments being worthless however. Not at all.

Oh, you forgot about the part where your TI4200 rushes in and beats up both the R420 and the NV40 while it was declocked and had warm coca cola being poured on it while it was powered. ;)


I MUST add: Your a sick man.

[Violator]

Well let's see how Overclocker550 swallows this (http://theinquirer.net/?article=15246) little snippet of info. Of course, it'll probably be a 'good move by ATi' now :rolleyes:.

Yes, you heard that right, ATI is going the dually path also.

[Overclocker550]

sick? you sound sicker than me LOL I am feeling quite well actually. no cold or anything :D the 9800 pro is just a tweaked 9700 pro, ive seen people own 9800 pros with their 9700s, the thing is the 9800 pro has been respun for higher clocks so the process is better so hitting 400Mhz is easier on a 9800p than 9700p

[TruckyJ]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
sick? you sound sicker than me LOL I am feeling quite well actually. no cold or anything :D the 9800 pro is just a tweaked 9700 pro, ive seen people own 9800 pros with their 9700s, the thing is the 9800 pro has been respun for higher clocks so the process is better so hitting 400Mhz is easier on a 9800p than 9700p

I think I may be a sick man after all....I keep having visions of coke being poured on your Ti4200. :p

I'm aware that a 9700pro can be clocked faster than a 9800pro. However there are some notable enhancements with the 9800 core (I wouldn't be telling you this if it weren't true since I own a 9700pro and I would just as much like to think that I have the same core)

The most notable change with the 9800 core is the F buffer. The 9700pro limits the length of pixel shading instructions. However, the r350 can run infinite length instructions without the need to go back to the frame buffer. If it had to, performance would drop (an advantage over the 9700's). I would say that's pretty notable. Futhermore, some minor changes were made in how AA was addressed in the core. As a result ATI rates the r350 as having "smoothvision 2.1" instead of "2.0" with the 9700.

[micamica1217]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
the thing is the 9800 pro has been respun for higher clocks so the process is better so hitting 400Mhz is easier on a 9800p than 9700p

I wish you rely understood what you are saying....
you would be ROTFLMAO at yourself.

your understanding of what the 9800pro is/isn't seems far too simplistic as far as I'm conserned.

mica

[TruckyJ]

Originally posted by micamica1217


I wish you rely understood what you are saying....
you would be ROTFLMAO at yourself.

your understanding of what the 9800pro is/isn't seems far too simplistic as far as I'm conserned.

mica


Its not just simplistic, its blatently wrong. Its a revised core...not just a higher clocked core.

[OBLIVIONLORD]

"the refree blows the whistle and the r420 charges towards the wimpy nv40 and knocks it out with 1 punch"

Talk about someone whos soo overly confident about a product that hasn't even been released yet. Show me a benchmark of Doom3 beta where any Ati card beats the 5900?

[Overclocker550]

doom3 and nvidia are love buddies. nvidia has cheated so much on doom3 itll probably run best on nvidia hardware but ati hardware would get the better IQ and with both high end cards capable of high fps, IQ is more important since fps arent lacking. how important is F buffer? both score the same 3dmarks MHz per MHz.

[micamica1217]

*mica bangs head on desk :bang head ...wonders when this madness will end*

mica

[xtrmeocr]

Originally posted by micamica1217
*mica bangs head on desk :bang head ...wonders when this madness will end*

mica

never, i remeber seeing this guy on a non tech related internet board over 2 years ago and i thought he was doing this **** to **** people off. turns out he just really is that dumb.

[snyper1982]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
doom3 and nvidia are love buddies. nvidia has cheated so much on doom3 itll probably run best on nvidia hardware but ati hardware would get the better IQ and with both high end cards capable of high fps, IQ is more important since fps arent lacking. how important is F buffer? both score the same 3dmarks MHz per MHz.

this is hilarious, especialy from you. you of all people who say iq doesnt matter. the 9800 is NOT the same core it is a revised, no matter how small the revision is, it is not the same core. now its fine that the nv cards can run doom 3 faster, they have been able to outperform ati cards in OGL games for as long as i can remember, but who is honestly going to buy a $500 card for 1 game? assuming that is the only game that its faster at. now i agre with oc550 to a certain extent, i believe the r420 will be a better card, how much better though? i highly doubt its going to be WAAAAAAYY better like he says. its funny how he says all this stuff for a company he doesnt even use. ints not like he has a 9700 or something.

[madcow235]

Notice how oc550 just ignores the fact that ATI also has to use 2 power connectors.
Also you say IQ is all that matters but you say that Antialiasing and anisotropic filtering are worthless all the time. Make up your damn mind already.

[TruckyJ]

Originally posted by Overclocker550
doom3 and nvidia are love buddies. nvidia has cheated so much on doom3 itll probably run best on nvidia hardware but ati hardware would get the better IQ and with both high end cards capable of high fps, IQ is more important since fps arent lacking. how important is F buffer? both score the same 3dmarks MHz per MHz.


If you read what I posted and thought about it for a second you'd realize that since the F buffer is related to long shader instructions, the 3dmark scores would be the same. 3dmark (both 2k1 and 2k3) are not shader intensive in the sense of long instructions. Rather they seem programed for the generation of cards that were out when they were released. Just another reason why basing a card off its 3dmark scores is totally rediculous.

Also, Doom 3 is faster as a result of Nvidia's OpenGL archetecture, not cheating. Give me a break. Furthermore, you have no reason to assume that ATI's Doom3 image quality will be any better. Is the game out? NO. Have you actually read any of carmack's statements concerning why Nvidia's archetecture will be faster? NO. Have you read anything official saying that Doom 3 will look better on ATI cards? NO. Have you read anything saying that Nvidia cheated on Doom3 (an unrealeased game)? NO.

Quit acting like you know something then. Everyone here thats been around for a little while realizes that when you make statements they are only justified about 50% of the time. Knock it off.

[Voodoo Rufus]

As if one molex wasn't bad enough, 2 is completely absurd.

Netiher used AGP Pro, and PCI-E should have a pro version but who knows if it'll have it. A few cents of PCB space and hardly any mobo has AGP Pro. Grrrr.....

[OBLIVIONLORD]

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=15265

"Today we can confirm that Nvidia recommends that the PSU for GeForce 6800 Ultra should be no less than a stonking 480W!"

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=15246

"When you put in any of the cards that Nvidia and ATI won’t talk about for 2 weeks, well, time for a 450w, minimum. Add in a Prescott, and you are looking at the high end of Antec’s line."

CHRIST!!! Well its a damn good thing i didnt sell my 350watt antec just yet. Im now going to learn how to combine both power supplies. LOL

[Voodoo Rufus]

My Sparkle 350W is starting to feel the pain already.

[OBLIVIONLORD]

If I connect 2 molex power connectors from my SL350 Antec into either the N40/420 cards, will that be sufficent to work with the video card or must I bridge both PSU's together which I don't need to do since the 430 im using now works fine for my setup?