Artifacting with new 9800XT

[SephirothX]

So, I just got myself a ATi 9800XT with a VGA silencer and ram copper heatsinks. I was thinking about OC'ing it a bit, but noticed slightly annoying bad artifacting in 3d Mark. Not that it is totally bad, it's just some white dots pretty noticable here and there. This after rasing core and memory ~5%.

In the 4th game test with 3d mark (mother nature, or something? :p) there's pretty bad artifacting on the water, but I've seen pictures from this test taken with another card that had the same problem

Now I havn't seen if the artifacting is as bad in games, but what I am wondering is if this is normal with the card, and also how much I could expect to overclock my card.

Thanks for all responses

[wannaoc]

Is this a card that was a 9800 pro 256mb with the BIOS upgrade or a true 9800XT? If you are running a true 9800XT and it is artifacting at stock then an RMA is in order for sure. If its artifacting with a small overclock or after the BIOS mod then you may just have a bad overclocker. Try to reinstall the vga silencer and make sure its sitting right, otherwise I'm not sure what to tell you. Also make sure the shim isn't holding the heatsink off the core at all. Good luck.

[SephirothX]

This is a true 9800XT.

The artifacting got noticable at +~5% mem speed and core speed.

I'm using Omega drivers. The "ATiTool" that got the feature "Find Max Core" and "Find Max Mem", which tests various speeds and searches for artifacts ends up with a result lower than default core.

Right now the temprature is 68ºC

I have nothing to compare this with, really. So tips and stuff is apreciated :)

[SephirothX]

Is 68ºC when idle with the VGA silencer normal?
Shouldn't I be able to overclock more before noticing artifacting?

What steps can I make to be sure that the VGA silencer is installed correctly, since I actually didn't do this job.

edit: pardon my double post

[wannaoc]

I can't say if the temp is high as I can't show my temps on a 9800NP but to me it seems a little high. To make sure the silencer is on right just follow the directions and put it on as well as you can. It might just be sitting funny right now and will work itself out when you put it back on as mine did.

Be sure to check the shim height against the core. Take a straight edge and carefully lay it over the shim and core and hold it up to a light source. If you see light alot of light coming through over the core then the shim may be too high and need to be removed. You can also modify the silencer by grinding down the edges that lay over the shim if you would rather do that. Also did you use Arctic Silver/Ceramique or the stuff the silencer came with?

Don't worry about ATi Tool showing artifacts and going below stock it does that to me and a bunch of other people as well. I use Radlinker since it uses less resources and just run the seven game tests in 3DMark01 to test for artifacts.

[Snipester]

Did you remove the shim around the GPU?

I haven't removed the shim on my 9700 pro and i get artifacting when overclocking After doing intensive 3d for about an hour. I also have ramsinks...

I think a general rule is that if stuff is screwed up all over the screen its the GPU failing? (dots, color prob)... etc..
and if the memory is failing .... parts of textures will go missing......... or are screwed up or vertices that wrap around oddly

[EwoutvB]

If the memory fails you can get normal black dots as well, not just textures being messed up.

[sleepyzman]

reseat the silencer if problem persists rma it

[wannaoc]

reseat the silencer if problem persists rma it

Just because a PC part doesn't overclock that is NO reason to rma it. By no means take that advice imo.

[Tatuya]

Put the original setup back on and try to OC it. Perhaps the silencer is seated terribly on your GPU and is making minimal contact :D.

[SephirothX]

I just found this installation guide (http://www.arctic-cooling.com/en/support/installation/install_vga_silencer1.pdf), so now I can reinstall it.

Curious about a couple of this; what is "the shim" (thin metal plate? *shrugs*) and what does RMA mean? (I persume it means you get a new card because the one you got isn't working properly).

Btw, the artifacting I get is white dots on usually darker surfaces, like my gun in Halo.

http://home.no.net/tomas1/9800XT.jpg
I persume the gap on the left side isn't normal? ;)

[Steven4563]

ive got that gap on my 9700 :confused: i dont know the reason for that tho

but i would try underclocking the card to lower speeds about 100mhz on each mem and core and see if the artifacts go away

[SephirothX]

Well, looks like the gap is there no matter what.
I reinstalled the card, and it ended up in the same potition as before.

If the "shim" is the metal frame around the GPU, then it's still there. Should I remove it? How?
There is also some paste-like stuff on the core. I persume this is the "stuff that came with the silencer" that wannaoc talked about? As I said I didn't do this job, nor am I used to hardware modifications, but I get along with hardware elsewise ;)

And the artifacts arn't there by default. They come after around 1 hour of playing Halo, and I used "overdrive" yesterday when I saw it starting.

[theELVISCERATOR]

So, I just got myself a ATi 9800XT with a VGA silencer and ram copper heatsinks. I was thinking about OC'ing it a bit, but noticed slightly annoying bad artifacting in 3d Mark. Not that it is totally bad, it's just some white dots pretty noticable here and there. This after rasing core and memory ~5%.

In the 4th game test with 3d mark (mother nature, or something? :p) there's pretty bad artifacting on the water, but I've seen pictures from this test taken with another card that had the same problem

Now I havn't seen if the artifacting is as bad in games, but what I am wondering is if this is normal with the card, and also how much I could expect to overclock my card.

Thanks for all responses


as for the gap i did this......


http://www.ocforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28002


Its there because it fits Nvidia cards also...

[SephirothX]

Does the mod of the gap help with the cooling?

[SephirothX]

I'm using the VGA Silencer rev. 2, and this site (http://www.ocfaq.com/reviews/ArcticCooling/VGASilencer/) says that it's not compatible with the Radeon 9800XT. Also it looks like the Silencer XT isn't out yet, but if there is no other solution to my problem I guess I'll buy that when it hits the market.

Anyone know when it hit the market? ;)

[PottaCoola]

The gap on the silencer is for smaller pcb's

[wannaoc]

That pic isn't the gap I was talking about. Mine has that and I assume all others do as well. That is a good mod for that but that wouldn't cause artifacting.

Yes the shim is the silver square around the core. It can be removed and like I said you could also shave down the edge of the silencer that is sitting on it. Do a search here in the forums and you will find a couple threads about how to take it off. Its rather simple but needs to be done carefully.

The stuff on the core is your thermal paste. It needs to be replaced every time you move or remove the heatsink from the core. I suggest using Arctic Silver 5, you can pick it up at any PC store on the net for about $6.00US. You could pick it up when you buy the new revision. As you said its a rev. 2 on it that could be most of the problem but if you haven't been replacing the thermal paste each time you remove it the temps will continue to get worse.

[diehrd]

Use dental floss to get the shim off.

[SephirothX]

Be sure to check the shim height against the core. Take a straight edge and carefully lay it over the shim and core and hold it up to a light source. If you see light alot of light coming through over the core then the shim may be too high and need to be removed. You can also modify the silencer by grinding down the edges that lay over the shim if you would rather do that.

I'll first off try to get some thermal paste, then I'll check the shim height. Does removing the shim, other than the actual removal, pose any danger to the card?

[Nebulous]

I'll first off try to get some thermal paste, then I'll check the shim height. Does removing the shim, other than the actual removal, pose any danger to the card?


Unless you're using a waterblock on the video card and over-tighten the screws, yes there's danger of killing the card by crushing the gpu.

For the silencer, no. What you're trying to do is make sure the silencer fits snug and flat as possible on the gpu. DO NOT THROW THE SHIM AWAY! You'll need to replace it if you need to rma the card. Be careful with those dots around the gpu core, you don't want to go popping one of those off.

[SephirothX]

I really like the blue backside mounting clip, it has a flexible steel clip inside that bends as mounting pressure increases - this makes it virtually impossible to crush your core, or bend the card by overtightening the screws. I killed a Radeon 9500 while mounting a waterblock and overtightening the screws, so you might want to pay attention to this.

I'll hopefully not crush the GPU, hehe.
I'll also pay good attention to the dots around the core. Thanks for the caution, and for the tips.

Cheers!

[SephirothX]

Well, I didn't remove the shim.
But I removed what was a too large amount of thermal paste, and replaced it with artic silver 5. Now I've successfully overclocked the card to 420/380ish and it works good. The temprature is now between 68-75ºC when active, and I'll probably try to overclock it even more, and maybe remove the shim some time.

Thanks for all tips and thoughts! It's been of GREAT help

[wannaoc]

Thats a good start, keep it up! Glad we could help.

[FishD]

This is a true 9800XT.

The artifacting got noticable at +~5% mem speed and core speed.

Right now the temprature is 68ºC



Think mine used to go to about 71c under load, with the original cooler at 452 gpu clock, and stock memory. Would be low high fifties low sixties, 59-61 at stock clocks. Mine is steady at 457/374, with new zalman passive cooler + fan, and temp is 62 under load.

At your temp you should be rock steady with no artifacts especially at stock. I can't rule out your cooler setup, but I suspect its something more than that

[SephirothX]

As said before, the VGA Silencer rev. 2/3 isn't compatible with Radeon 9800XT.

I am currently concidering getting new cooling, since what I have obviously isn't good enough. and this (http://www.pctoyland.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=zm-80chp) does look tempting.

I am not sure how much better the "VGA Silencer XT", whenever that is due, will be.
Should I go for the "Zalman 80C-HP"?

[Snipester]

WEll anyways with my 9700 pro overclock i found that the problem is that the ram chips get rediculously hot even at stock..... but only the first 4 chips get hot while running 3dmark2003 ........... I used a thermal probe and the ramsinks were around 50 C while my Arctic cooler was only around 40 C

At 380 core i got some black dotting so the max stable is 375mhz core
for my ram I still don't know how to test that well since the chips get REALLy hot even with ramsinks......

My card is an AIW 9700pro that i got b4 it came out so its like version 0.1

[FishD]

....................Should I go for the "Zalman 80C-HP"?

One benefit of the Zalman is that it blows air across both sides of the board and hence the ram. I don't have ram sinks, so don't know how they would fit with the Zalman, someone else might comment, bu if they could it would probably be an even better solution.

One issue to consider is the position of the fan, which sits on the top of the graphics board, blowing down onto the motherboard. If the gap between this and the case cover is too small you wont get the best efficiency. I got over this by putting an 80mm hole in the cover. This gave me another 3 deg reduction in gpu temp.

[FishD]

http://homepage.eircom.net/~fish44/Pictures/Zalman1.jpg
http://homepage.eircom.net/~fish44/Pictures/Zalman2.jpg

[SephirothX]

I don't mind putting a hole in the side of my cover, so I'll probably get myself a Zalman cooling. The most important thing is that my card gets cooler, and I am able to OC more ;)

Cheers!

[wannaoc]

Thats a real nice idea putting the hole in the side like that. I imagine it helped cooling it a bunch.

The most important thing is that my card gets cooler, and I am able to OC more
Always! :)

[SephirothX]

How is the weight on the card..?
It's pretty heavy, isn't it? Like 400g? Isn't there a chance for the card to... actually break downwards? :p

[Nebulous]

How is the weight on the card..?
It's pretty heavy, isn't it? Like 400g? Isn't there a chance for the card to... actually break downwards? :p


Well if it's tilted and you fear the card is gonna rip the AGP slot off the board, I suggest using a piece of nylon and re-inforcing the edge of the card ( where the power connector is) there's a hole in the card on that corner. Just tie a piece of nylon string from that spot to a spot on the case, lifiting the card's corner therefore relieving the stress on the AGP slot and taking some weight off the card itself ;) I did it several times when modding a cpu heatsink on my cards. Werks like a charm and done right you won't even see it :thup: .

[SephirothX]

Yes, I had in mind some mod like that.

Sounds great.
*currently waiting for reply from an ebay seller, and I might have my Zalman heading my direction* ;)

[Nebulous]

Awsome! Good luck with it :)

[Calgria]

About your copper heatsinks - do they actually work for you? I read somewhere that they dont help very much cooling down your memory.

[SephirothX]

Well, I have little to compare it to, nor do I know the temp of the memory, but the guy I bought the card from added them with no fee because it took some time before he got the card instock.

I can't say weither they work or not, and maybe it's the placebo effect (when you believe something works, it does, although it's merly an illution :p) but I'd say that any cooling is good cooling

[FishD]

How is the weight on the card..?
It's pretty heavy, isn't it? Like 400g? Isn't there a chance for the card to... actually break downwards? :p

Think you should be able to see from photo that there's little or no strain on the card. They are pretty robust. Probably would not take as much down g's as without, but static its not prob. If you were concerned you could strap a vertical rod/cable, and fix it to the top of your case, and onto the appropriate fixing lug of the fan. That would keep it rock steady in the event of some downward shock.

You're best deciding on that one when you see it installed.

Fish

[SephirothX]

Wee! Got my Zalman today!
Picked it up at a local hardware store (why didn't I check that first? duuh..)

and now I'm ready to install! Got all I need :p
http://home.no.net/tomas1/readytoinstall.jpg

Wish me luck ;)

[FishD]

Wee! Got my Zalman today!



GOOD LUCK.

You'll probably be powered down by now, and wont get this until you are up and running again, but......

Don't forget to do a 'dry run' before putting the paste on. Otherwise it gets all over the place while you are figuring out where everything goes. Also note that there's an extra set of blocks which will be left over at the end. It took me a while to realise they were for a different type of processor.

[SephirothX]

well, I did get to see it ;)
I am just about to install it now, and I have to remove the copper ramsinks on the back of my card.. Just carefully "pop" 'em off? Or are there any other tips? ;)

Yeah, I've read the manual a couple of times, so I will hopefully not make a too big mess.

See you when I got the new cooler running ;)

[FishD]

well, I did get to see it ;)
Just carefully "pop" 'em off? Or are there any other tips?.........


Cant help here, since my XT had a cooling plate on the back of it. You sure you can't leave them intact. Think they would help if there's enough of a gap. You should get advice before going at it since if they are stuck on hard, any agressive prizing might damage the card.

http://homepage.eircom.net/~fish44/Pictures/xt_cooler_plate.jpg

[SephirothX]

I don't wanna mess up the card... :p

I have to remove the ones on the back of my card, but those on the front side can stay.

[FishD]

Look here....


http://yoshi.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=6962&st=0&#entry63309

http://forums.devhardware.com/archive/t-5658

they might help.

[SephirothX]

*grabs his hairdryer*
*puts it on the heatsinks* burn, *******s! Buurn! :mad:

edit: *runs back*
Oh, and big thanks on those tips! :D

[SephirothX]

Got the RAM sinks off, the tip is recomended to anyone that wants to remove old heatsink stuff that's glued on :)

My idle temp is now around 64, which is a good 6ºC lower, and tomorrow I'll try to get a hole on the side of my cabinet, hoping that that will increase it further... Moreover; there are still artifacts :( AT STOCK! :eek:

I'm starting to wonder if something is wrong..?

edit: http://home.no.net/tomas1/artifactingdamnit.jpg
Keep in mind that this is stock, and only one frame

[FishD]

Think mine used to go to about 71c under load, with the original cooler at 452 gpu clock, and stock memory. Would be low high fifties low sixties, 59-61 at stock clocks. Mine is steady at 457/374, with new zalman passive cooler + fan, and temp is 62 under load.

At your temp you should be rock steady with no artifacts especially at stock. I can't rule out your cooler setup, but I suspect its something more than that

BUMP

[FishD]

I'm starting to wonder if something is wrong..?




http://homepage.eircom.net/~fish44/Pictures/artifact.jpg


Do you feel an RMA comming on!!!!!! :eek:
Fish

[SephirothX]

Sent an e-mail to the seller...
Hoping that things will get sorted out...

[SephirothX]

Well, opened my case to see how much lower tempratures I got.
I realized that I had potitioned the fan wrong, haha.. Well, the tempratures dropped dramaticly, down to a cool 56 when idle, and up not around 58-60 after benchmark and some intense Quake 3.

I just closed my case again, and waiting to see how much the temp goes up, now that my fan is in correct potition. (60ºC and looking stable)

The artifact problem got a bit smaller, but it was still there...
Has anyone else experienced artifacting on the "Mother Nature" (game test 4) in 3DMark03 on the water?

edit: 64ºC under load with closed case

[wannaoc]

Well my card artifacts like that in that test almost at stock speeds so don't go by just that. Run 3dmark01 and see where it sits then go from there.

Putting the fan in the case side over the card makes a huge difference in card overclock. I put a 120mm in and gained 10 core which I consider good for basically free. :)

[SephirothX]

I still notice some artifacts in certain games, and in 3DMark03, and compared to FishD, it's pretty bad.

http://home.no.net/tomas1/noartifacting.jpg
:(

[SephirothX]

Yay, he's willing to give me a new card, and even check that I go get a card that can take some serious overclocking :D

Although I'd have to go some time without my card.

[FishD]

Yay, he's willing to give me a new card, and even check that I go get a card that can take some serious overclocking :D

Although I'd have to go some time without my card.

Hey,
How did you progress with your RMA, and what temperatures are you getting now. Would like to compare with mine, see next FishD post

[shuRe]

it unfortunate that you are a bit new to o/c like me, but i got the 9800 pro 128mb cause of its performance/price and then found out it can o/c faster than the xt :)

currently at 455/390 totally stable, 54C idle, 62 load.

maybe you should have rma'd it and got a 9800 pro

[FishD]

I don't mind putting a hole in the side of my cover, so I'll probably get myself a Zalman cooling. The most important thing is that my card gets cooler, and I am able to OC more ;)

Cheers!

Have you changed your card, and what are you getting now.

Ive used RivaTuner and here's my setup.

9800XT 256
Ambient temp 22C, Full 3d/cpu Load
Case exhaust temp 31c
CPU 3.0ghz@3.6ghz, FSB 240mhz,
ram 197 (5/4 multiplier) 2.5-3-3-7
GPU 455mhz
DDR2 ram 369mhz
GPU temp 42c
CPU temp 63c
Unloaded CPU 44c
Unloaded GPU 38c

3dmark score 7200, no artifacting.

FishD

[FishD]

maybe you should have rma'd it and got a 9800 pro



Thats funny, since the XT was what I got when i rma'd a fried 9800pro in Nov last year. Did not have any choice, as sapphire had stopped making the 9800pro in favour of the XT. However i did get a free copuon for Half Life when it gets out, so that was some compenstation. And this card was head and shoulders over the older pro which fried. So not complaining. See I bought the card in May 2003, when they first came out, and quality of first batches were not as good. That's the price you paying for being the first to jump. Same goes for CPU's. If you wait, you get better value, more overclockability, but you can wait forever for better value with hardware.

There's never really a good time to buy computer hardware or software, since there is always better value tommorow.

My .02c

Fish

[Kenshiro]

HOLY COW!!!! That is one super big @ss heatsink from Zalman....

[SephirothX]

That's some reviving ;)

RMA went great. The guy trusted me enough to send me a new card before I sent mine back. It's been going rock steady (no artifacts) for the months I've had it now.

Funny thing is that I wasn't able to overclock it as much as I am able to now, during the summer, since the room temp was way higher than now that it's fall.
during the summer I had it at ~425/370, and now 440/375. Idle temp at 57 atm, and during intense 3d (what I've found most intense for the card is Q3A) 65ºC, card still smiling without artifacts. I still feel that it could've been better. That or that FishD has had great luck getting his card OCablewise.

Running with open cover all the time, by the way

[FishD]

That's some reviving ;)

during the summer I had it at ~425/370, and now 440/375. Idle temp at 57 atm, and during intense 3d (what I've found most intense for the card is Q3A) 65ºC, card still smiling without artifacts. I still feel that it could've been better. That or that FishD has had great luck getting his card OCablewise.

Running with open cover all the time, by the way

Your temps look about right, (similar to mine) so does your o/c. Very little difference in what i've got. See my settings in signature for stable running.

Couple of points in my experience.

Part of the reason for better result now is not only due to temp. You card is better burned in. Jury is still out on how/why this happens. But in my experience I get better results when i've had hardware for several weeks, or months.

Also think the card hits a wall at a certain overclock, and unless you apply massive additional cooling, it just wont ramp up any more, or if it does, i get artifacting, little white dots. My card hits the wall at 459, and opening / closing the case, or applying high airflow of cold air does not really make a difference. I think every card has a limit, and unlike a cpu, the cut off for this card is quite sharp. I also note that there's very little difference, say maybe 4/5deg between temp under load at stock and temp at full overclock.


Fish

[SephirothX]

Yeah, I think there's something to what you say there. I'm gonna do a benchmark soon, then I'll reinstall windows, fresh install and then redo the benchmark.

I'm looking forward to seeing (if there is) the difference

[Runner30]

Keep in mind that overclocking an XT can't be as drastical as , lets say a FX5200, because those are already tweaked, strained, mostly maxed out chips.
R3#0 are the most advanced chips of their generation and R360 is on the top.
Mine, for example ended up in a R9800 Pro, because it can't take XT speeds, despite the fact it IS an XT chip.

Don't be disappointed if you fail to overclock as far as you wish, and don't push it too hard.IT IS a great card by its own,but I agree that tweaking , adding cooling and playing with it is a lot of fun.

Oh, and BTW, nice Avatar ;) .