Engine Coolant in Water Rig?

[loks]

i am purchasing a new watercooling kit from Dangerden and i was wondering could i put engine coolant in the setup rather than water?

[BlueMan]

no. too viscous, it would have horrible heat transfer capability. you may be able to use coolant as an ADDITIVE, but not as the sole liquid. read stickies, it talks about how water is the absolute best liquid for heat transfer.

[loks]

so i can but a limited amount?

[-=Mr_B=-]

a limited amount may even enhance performance, and more importantly, it will prevent corrosion, and if your lucky, add some slight coloring to your coolant.

B!

[loks]

what kind of coloring??? im new to this whole water cooling thing.

[squeakygeek]

I hope by engine coolant you don't mean oil!

[Bios24]

I'm hoping we're talking about antifreeze, and yes, you should use an antifreeze mix in your wc rig. I think most use a 75% water 25% antifreeze mix but I've heard all the way up to a 90/10 mix, might read the stickies for more. If you just ran straight water there would be a good possibility of corrosion or bacteria.

[phaeton]

you guys say water is absolute best, I'm using reverse osmosis water and dowfrost in a 50/50 mixture :)

this **** is the rock, and the dowfrost is 180$ US for a gallon....

[squeakygeek]

you guys say water is absolute best, I'm using reverse osmosis water and dowfrost in a 50/50 mixture :)

this **** is the rock, and the dowfrost is 180$ US for a gallon....

What is dowfrost and why do you use it?

[nealric]

I would just add a touch of antifreeze...

Works for me :)

[squirtle632]

The anti corrosion properties in the antifreeze are a great idea. Like previously stated, I would only use about 5%. It does not take much to coat the system for anti corrosion.
I would go with the new red coolant. A bit more advance in chemical properties.
You might be able to go to a service repair shop and ask a technician if he can spare some. Make sure you have a sealed container to trasport it into.
They most likely will not give it to you otherwise. They can get into trouble if it is allowed to get into the ground soil. If you really read the bottle of this stuff and what the chemicals can do.................

1/2 fluid oz can kill a cat or dog. They are naturally attracted to it since it is sweet smelling.
Hope I helped a bit

[JDizzle]

The correct amount of antifreeze to add is 5%-10%

[loks]

so what should i go with because one is tell me 75% anitfreeze 25% water, someone else is telling me 90% ant 20% h2O, and you just told me 10% anti 90%H2O???

[squirtle632]

I would go with 10% tops and see temps....... There isnt that much fuild to begin with in your system.

[phaeton]

squeaky, its a special heat transfer liquid created to cool spindles in CNC machines etc, expensive stuff, straight from california.... i use it because i can :D

[Neco]

http://www.dow.com/heattrans/family/dowfrhd/

[squeakygeek]

squeaky, its a special heat transfer liquid created to cool spindles in CNC machines etc, expensive stuff, straight from california.... i use it because i can :D

Is there an advantage to using it, or do you enjoy throwing your money away?

[RedViper]

so what should i go with because one is tell me 75% anitfreeze 25% water, someone else is telling me 90% ant 20% h2O, and you just told me 10% anti 90%H2O???

Confusing, isn't it? Do it the easy way, 96% distilled/dionized water, 4% largely recommended coolant. Toss in a smidge of algaecide if you're paranoid. Remember, water is the best, but it needs to be augmented some.

[RedViper]

squeaky, its a special heat transfer liquid created to cool spindles in CNC machines etc, expensive stuff, straight from california.... i use it because i can :D

The pH of this stuff is way alkaline. Did you notice that?

[phaeton]

squeaky, dunno, but one if you saw my WC setup a while back you will see its ghetto, two i get this stuff for free....

redviper i did, but i dont see how that will affect things in my setup?

[RedViper]

redviper i did, but i dont see how that will affect things in my setup?

I read something about too high pH the other day. I'll see if I can find it.

[RedViper]

"Higher concentrations of hydrogen ions (acidic solutions) promote oxidation (corrosion). In a PC water-cooling system we generally want the pH to be on the alkaline side to help minimize corrosion. pH values between 8 and 10 are typically desirable. If aluminum components are being used then a pH not exceeding 8.5 should ideally be maintained to preserve the very thin protective oxide layer that naturally forms on aluminum surfaces.

Maintaining a mildly alkaline pH will also help ****** the growth of biological organisms, as most bacteria, algae, and fungi prefer slightly acidic growing environments."

You're okay as long as you don't have any non-annodized aluminum.

Complete article. (http://www.overclockers.com/articles993/)

[Gasoline]

Looks like the Dowfrost stuff is meant to cool industrial machinery that is a much more severe environment than your CPU ever see. I would not use it in a computer cooling system.

The laws of chemistry and physics show that pure water has the highest thermal capacity ("specific heat" - the ability to store heat) of all substances known to mankind. In fact they use the unit-value of 1.0 to represent pure water (that's how the calorie system is based) and all other substances (either manmade or natural, doesn't matter whether they're solid, liquid or gas) have a value between zero and one.


EDIT: OOPS!!!! I forgot about liquid helium, a strange-acting substance that is the only one that has a specific heat value greater than 1.0, but if you intend to cool your machine with liquid helium, this discussion is moot!!!


EDIT AGAIN: Darn this science stuff!!!! I just read that negative values for specific heat have been determined to exist in the material inside black holes and also for hydrogen undergoing fusion inside stars. But again, I kinda doubt those substances are suitable for use as a cpu coolant, so for all practical purposes of the discussion, the specific heat values for substances we can use is somewhere between 0 and 1.

Highly alkaline water solutions will also attack aluminum too, forming an icky,slimy aluminum hydroxide mess.

Pure distilled water will conduct and transfer heat the very best of all fluids in a cpu cooling system, but will eventually grow microbes in it as well as foster corrosion of aluminum.

Pure distilled water with a very small percentage (like the 5-10 % ranges quoted by many other folks here) of propylene glycol based automobile antifreeze will be an ideal coolant which will not lower the specific heat xfer properties of the water very much at all, but will help protect the aluminum, and help thwart microbial growth in the warm water. If you're gonna operate your rig in ambient air temps well below 32F/0C (Brrrrr!) then you may want to use more antifreeze... just look at the temp chart on most antifreeze bottles to get the desired percentage. The lowest percentage of antifreeze necessary to handle the low temps is most ideal.

Water is also an ideal carrier for dyes to add additional Bling to your rig.

Also Propylene Glycol based auto antifreeze (reddish color) is much, much less toxic than the old Ethylene Glycol (greenish yellow) antifreeze. Propylene Glycol is even an ingredient in Dr. Pepper !!! so small amounts must be safe to drink? (Of course some folks argue that all soft drinks are actually poison, but I digress...) Not so for Ethylene Glycol, it's extremely poisonous and a small amount ingested will kill your kidneys and you could die a slow, painful, horrible death without immediate dialysis and possibly a kidney transplant. That's how dogs die that drink antifreeze, they suffer fatal kidney failure.

[phaeton]

Hm, well I'll try this stuff out, its 50% reverse osmosis water 50% dowfrost.... but if water is so perfect how come using it on cnc machining spindles never occurs? or for that matter also not in car engines?

i dont really know why not, but im curious (i dont mean to sound cynical) so maybe someone will let me know :)

[squirtle632]

Since water boils over at 212°F at sea level, you have to pressurize the system to 15lbs in order for it ot now boil at 260°F. The anti freeze acually increases this even a bit further to close to 275°F. These automotive engines have to run at such a high temperature in order to burn off all the carbon for passing federal emission standards. The colder the engine runs, the richer it runs also. The average temperature inside a cylinder of a car it 400°F minimum. All this heat has to go somewhere. So the water/antifreeze combo removes it the most efficiently.
On the other hand, in winter water freezes at 32°F. Antifreeze in is pure form will freeze at -20°F. If you combine the two it will lower the freezing point to -40° under optimal conditions. If there was no antifreeze in the car, the first time it got below 32°F your engine block would freeze and crack.
So you see antifreeze serves a dual purpose.

[squirtle632]

Unforutnately, I do not know about downfrost.
I work in the automotive industry so i know more about auto related things.

[-=Mr_B=-]

Same reason, so i removed my post. Dident quite seam to make sence with a usless onle liner, even tho i posted just a sec after you or so.
B!

[phaeton]

Thx squirtle... I'll try this dowfrost stuff tomorrow once I have some time to attach my block to my CPU :) I'll post results... maybe I'll try with distilled water first to see temps

[madcow235]

Both mercury and Ammonia have higher specific heats than water. Neither are ideal for cooling :)

[RedViper]

Since water boils over at 212°F at sea level, you have to pressurize the system to 15lbs in order for it ot now boil at 260°F. The anti freeze acually increases this even a bit further to close to 275°F. These automotive engines have to run at such a high temperature in order to burn off all the carbon for passing federal emission standards. The colder the engine runs, the richer it runs also. The average temperature inside a cylinder of a car it 400°F minimum. All this heat has to go somewhere. So the water/antifreeze combo removes it the most efficiently.
On the other hand, in winter water freezes at 32°F. Antifreeze in is pure form will freeze at -20°F. If you combine the two it will lower the freezing point to -40° under optimal conditions. If there was no antifreeze in the car, the first time it got below 32°F your engine block would freeze and crack.
So you see antifreeze serves a dual purpose.

You're REAL good. :)

[squirtle632]

thx.......

[squeakygeek]

Both mercury and Ammonia have higher specific heats than water. Neither are ideal for cooling :)

Actually, mercury has a mere 3% of the specific heat of water
http://www.gmhsscience.com/problems/heat.htm

[squirtle632]

Mercury will kill you even through touching it with bear skin.

[RedViper]

Mercury will kill you even through touching it with bear skin.

Uh, I used to play with that stuff when I was a kid. :( Lucky I never decided to have kids. Isn’t it’s most devious property that it’s frangible down to the sub-cellular level and easily combined with other metals?

[-=Mr_B=-]

Mercury technicaly aint a fluid, but a metal, so therefor usualy aint included in "coolant" comparisons.. the vapors from Mercury aint healthy, and the "liquid" stuff even less, altho, it is absobed through the skin, you need a bit to actually get poisond and die from it... Mercury oxide is a orange powder, and dosent give of vapors, or absorb through the skin... but a simple lighter will heat it enough to burn the bonded oxygen, and return to fluid state..

All if memory serves me right, offcourse. Its also a bit heavyer then water, and might be tough to handle when it tries to expand due to the heat absorbed... How it would react to a pump i dont have the slightest clue...

All things considerd, i think its a bad idea to go with mercury as a coolant.
B!

[Gasoline]

Wow, I did not know that about ammonia. No wonder it makes such an effiecient refrigerant gas. But it is a very deadly poison too.

I thought a "fluid" meant any substance that flows...

A definition from an old science book I have reads: Fluid - "Any material or substance which flows or moves whether in a semisolid, liquid, sludge, gas, or any other form or state." And it even gives an example of old stained glass church window panes that are so thin at the top because they have very slowly flowed downards from gravity over a couple hundred years. It calls glass an "amorphous semisolid that is also an extremely viscous fluid".

[phaeton]

well im running the dowfrost, im hitting 36-37oC load with my 2.6@3.2.... so not too shabby

[-=Mr_B=-]

Gsoline, yes, fluids are normaly describes as stuff that flows, but mercury is a metal, obviuesly, as it oxidices, and therefor not really a fluid, but a melted metal.. it has a really low melting point thow...

I never heard the reference for glass as "fluid" but yes, i knew it to have that property. However, that i been told is due to the bond between the melted stuff not being to strong, wich makes it a temporary state, and also means that glass, given enough time "breaks down" to something else then the glass... possibly sand again? Somewhat offtopic tho..

I dont know, i just said that i bean tought that mercury is a metal, that at roomtemerature just happends to be liquifyed... every metal melts at some point, they still dont classifyes as fluids. Offcourse, what i have been tought might be missleading, or just a standard in one part of the world, everyone dont see everything the same way...

B!

[squeakygeek]

Gsoline, yes, fluids are normaly describes as stuff that flows, but mercury is a metal, obviuesly, as it oxidices, and therefor not really a fluid, but a melted metal.. it has a really low melting point thow...

I never heard the reference for glass as "fluid" but yes, i knew it to have that property. However, that i been told is due to the bond between the melted stuff not being to strong, wich makes it a temporary state, and also means that glass, given enough time "breaks down" to something else then the glass... possibly sand again? Somewhat offtopic tho..

I dont know, i just said that i bean tought that mercury is a metal, that at roomtemerature just happends to be liquifyed... every metal melts at some point, they still dont classifyes as fluids. Offcourse, what i have been tought might be missleading, or just a standard in one part of the world, everyone dont see everything the same way...

B!

liquid = fluid :rolleyes:

[phaeton]

Not really squeaky, is air a liquid? No, its a gas, but its a fluid :)

[squeakygeek]

Not really squeaky, is air a liquid? No, its a gas, but its a fluid :)

I didn't say fluid=liquid :p

[-=Mr_B=-]

You do know that wood (example) is passing a liqud state b4 it turns in to gas, and catches fire? That to is then a liquid? Im sorry, i wasent the one who made the "rules" and decided that Mercury is supposed to be classifyed as a metal, and appart from the fact that it oxidices i dont know what could make it "have" to be a metal.. i mean hydrogen is supposed to be a realy good electric conductor at extrem temps, but its still classifyed as a gas.

Sorry.
B!

[phaeton]

damn you squeakygeek and your little logic tricks! :P

[squeakygeek]

You do know that wood (example) is passing a liqud state b4 it turns in to gas, and catches fire? That to is then a liquid? Im sorry, i wasent the one who made the "rules" and decided that Mercury is supposed to be classifyed as a metal, and appart from the fact that it oxidices i dont know what could make it "have" to be a metal.. i mean hydrogen is supposed to be a realy good electric conductor at extrem temps, but its still classifyed as a gas.

Sorry.
B!

You're right, you didn't make the rules, but it also seems that we need to bring you up to speed: Nobody is saying Mercury isn't a metal... traditionally, an element or a group of elements called a molecule, including metal, can be in one of three states depending on temperature and pressure: solid, liquid, or gas. When a substance is liquid or gas, it is fluid, meaning it can flow. When it is a gas, it is fluid and compressible. When it is solid, it is not fluid. You seem to think that fluid is a fourth state, apart from the three, but this is not the case. It is simply a word to describe a physical property of liquids and gases.

As for your example about wood, you seem to have a warped sense of chemistry and physics. Solid wood does not melt into liquid wood and then turn into gas wood before catching fire. Wood undergoes a chemical reaction, which is an entirely different matter.

[-=Mr_B=-]

What i was meaning was simply the fact that everything "fluid" dosent automaticly make it a liquid, the wood example was a bad comparison, especialy as it it a multistage chemical process where just one step is liquid. My main point, where it seams be lost, i dont know, was the fact that mercury is, lets say it nice, heavy, poisionus, and has this funny thing about expanding alot, even when just being heated alittle. loads of things can be passed of as "liquids" if the exterior conditions are "made right" but it dosent make it a better coolant.

I never said it was imposible, just that i thought it was a bad idea. Possible even a really dangeroues one, and.. well, mercury is a exelent conductor, so please, dont have it leak on your components, espesialy as you cant really just "rinse it of" in the sink, Mercury, atleast over here, is a "controlled substance" meaning thats a pretty big crime to do sutch...

B!

[squeakygeek]

What i was meaning was simply the fact that everything "fluid" dosent automaticly make it a liquid, the wood example was a bad comparison, especialy as it it a multistage chemical process where just one step is liquid. My main point, where it seams be lost, i dont know, was the fact that mercury is, lets say it nice, heavy, poisionus, and has this funny thing about expanding alot, even when just being heated alittle. loads of things can be passed of as "liquids" if the exterior conditions are "made right" but it dosent make it a better coolant.

I never said it was imposible, just that i thought it was a bad idea. Possible even a really dangeroues one, and.. well, mercury is a exelent conductor, so please, dont have it leak on your components, espesialy as you cant really just "rinse it of" in the sink, Mercury, atleast over here, is a "controlled substance" meaning thats a pretty big crime to do sutch...

B!

Nobody is going to use mercury as a coolant. You were saying that because mercury is a metal, it is not a fluid. We have been trying to tell you that because it is liquid, it is fluid. I don't think anyone has tried to tell you that all fluids are liquid.

[-=Mr_B=-]

What i said more specificly was:
Mercury technicaly aint a fluid, but a metal, so therefor usualy aint included in "coolant" comparisons..
I never said it dosent ACT as a fluid, just that it usualy was in the coolant comparison table, but rather in the cooler comparison table.. i cant see a enviroment that actually could use a cooler milled from mercury tho. (that dosent use copper or any other aloy with atleast the advantage of handling pre mounting)
I just made a observation, i never said its a brick hard metal to be bent or welded, I think someone read a little to much in to what i did say.. Prolly my blame, as im not english speaking.
B!

[squeakygeek]

What i said more specificly was:

I never said it dosent ACT as a fluid, just that it usualy was in the coolant comparison table, but rather in the cooler comparison table.. i cant see a enviroment that actually could use a cooler milled from mercury tho. (that dosent use copper or any other aloy with atleast the advantage of handling pre mounting)
I just made a observation, i never said its a brick hard metal to be bent or welded, I think someone read a little to much in to what i did say.. Prolly my blame, as im not english speaking.
B!

I didn't have to read into what you were saying... you said

Mercury technicaly aint a fluid

Technically or otherwise, the fact remains that mercury is liquid at room temperature, and liquids are fluid

[-=Mr_B=-]

So what your saying is, just coz you WANT an argument, thats going nowhere, you on purpose ignore the rest of a sentence, just to have something to be messing with ?

You know what, this, for sure, is MY last post in this thread, but, if your statment should be held trye, then most things are fluids, since most things have a "liquid" state, that only depends on "room temperature" or "room preasure" so the point is way lost.

I was only stating the reason for why mercury usualy aint listed alongside with water, liquid oxugen, helium and other possible coolants on a "normal" colant comparison list.

I even said "technicaly" to show that i dident dissagre with the fact that its liquid, it still is listed as a metal, and THAT was my only point, Melted metals usualy is STILL regarded as metals, no mater if your able to handle them without a 10 feet stick or not.

With this, i'll consider myself done with this, if someone wants to read more into my posting, so be it. I cant be held responsible for what others do when they have to much spare time.

B!

[RedViper]

Interesting. :p

[Xenocide]

well if you guys didn't know, water wetter, and zerex are both engine coolants. water wetter is called "Redline" water wetter. you use it in a radiator when your doing a fan delete.

[loks]

where can i get water wetter or zerex?

[RedViper]

Well yeah, I knew that. But aren't both used in water-cooling for their wetting, anti-microbial and and anti-corrosive abilities? Their cooling properties don't really come into it because a loop never gets hot enough for that feature to work. And aren't both products labeled as additives to other fliuds, and not sold as coolants themselves?

Nit-picking! ;)

[RedViper]

where can i get water wetter or zerex?

Autozone, places like that.

[zabomb4163]

squeaky, hes sweedish give him a break. english isnt his first language