Whats the best gaming headphones

[Gongo56]

you can get for surround and stuff.

[Oni]

Depends on personal preference, really. If you're going to be gaming w/ headphones, you should select a set that are comfortable to wear for extended periods, and have a nice sound range (again, even that is personal preference).

I use a set of Sony MRD-CD 280's, and they're very nice, comfortable headphones w/ nice clean sound.

[Leviathan41]

I just got a pair of sennheiser HD 212 Pros, they sound excellent, and have a good bass. They are also very comfortable.

[blackpaladin]

for only 20 or so, you can pick up the plantronics audio .90s. they are a great headset, and probably the best bang for your buck that you will get :)

[9mmCensor]

Is Zalman the only company that makes 5.1 headphones?

[lil layzie]

I don't think so.
Here's another set of 5.1 Headphones.
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=36-401-016&depa=0

I also heard about ones called Medusa or something like that and I hear they are a really good set.

[Flanagun]

Best bet is just to get a normal set of cans. The 5.1 stuff is just a gimmick imho. I likemy sony mdrv700's. but they are prone to breaking every set i've seen has broken in the same spot. Sennheiser makes some nice stuff, i'll be getting a pair from them when i upgrade.

[Shuzzy]

i've got iomagic 5.1 headphones. i think they retail for about $100. they give great sound and they are comfortable as well. remember though that a good sound is necessity if you are gonna get good headphones, otherwise you are just wastin your money.

edit: here is a link for more info http://www.iomagic.com/Products/show_all_results.asp?ProdID=IHD51

[Xenocide]

i like my logitech usb 300s, digital sound and a nice mic for coms

[fuzzba11]

Grado SR60s, they cost less than $100 and the sound is so sweet! It really improved my deathmatch skills, as I could hear exactly where footsteps/gunfire was coming from, both direction and distance. Great for music, too.

[KKAT]

look into sennheiser too. i own a pair of hd580s, and they sound great!!!
prior to the hd580s i had the hd500s, which are also nice.
however, the 580s need an amp. but the 500s are 32ohm and don't!
Good luck!!

[Gongo56]

anyone play with the plantronics dsp-500's? i heard those are really good too...

[OC Noob]

Grado SR60s, they cost less than $100 and the sound is so sweet! It really improved my deathmatch skills, as I could hear exactly where footsteps/gunfire was coming from, both direction and distance. Great for music, too.


I second that (think they can be had for around $70) and seconf the Senn's. I bought the Senn HD 280 Pros for around $85 from newegg and they are great. They give me sound as good as $2500 speakers from the same source. I'm sure the Grados would be almost as good if not as good.

Thats for music though, for gaming you can get away with much cheaper head phones, but if you have some extra cash and listen to music with them get a decent set.


ps 5.1 really doesn't mean much for head phones. I wanted it too when looking for a set, but learned head phones do a VERY nice job of creating the different positional sounds so you don't need it. The other problem is sound quality for the few 5.1 pairs is low compared to a decent set like the Grados or Senn's. Don't sweat the 5.1 your computer has a setting for head phones and it will create some very nice directional sound so you can hear that guy benind you or behind you to the left or where ever.


For really good info on head phones and stero equiptment go to www.audioasylum.com great forums.

[Bensa]

Best bet is just to get a normal set of cans. The 5.1 stuff is just a gimmick imho. I likemy sony mdrv700's. but they are prone to breaking every set i've seen has broken in the same spot. Sennheiser makes some nice stuff, i'll be getting a pair from them when i upgrade.

Actually no, the Zalmans have 6 drivers, and you can really feel the surround sound really well with some games. In CoD, I can know exactly where a sniper is when hiding behind a wall for cover.

They can also create some surround effect on sounds that are above or below you, this can give you an advantage when lots of things are going on.

[John G]

These:

Sennheiser HD 600 (http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/icm_eng.nsf/root/04465)

They are expensive, but awesome. A lot of pros use them as a reference for calibrating equipment - they're that accurate.

The HD 580 mentioned earlier sound pretty much the same for a good bit less, but have a more plain appearance. While they can probably still be found, I don't think they're in production anymore.

I'm another person who's not big on the "surround" headsets.

John G

[Wicked Klown]

For gaming headphones I'll have to say the Plantronics Audio90s. After all when getting gaming headphones you want something with a mic.

[OC Noob]

Actually no, the Zalmans have 6 drivers, and you can really feel the surround sound really well with some games. In CoD, I can know exactly where a sniper is when hiding behind a wall for cover.

They can also create some surround effect on sounds that are above or below you, this can give you an advantage when lots of things are going on.


A decent set of standard headphones can create those effects. Although, I've never tried 5.1 headphones so I can't speak from experience. I'm doing a bit of research and hopefully can come up with a difinitive answer if 5.1 headphones can create effects that are noticably better and what kind of quality they produce. There are, after all, several new sets of 5.1 headphones since I last looked into buying a set.

One thing that comes to mind is you need decent separation for 5.1 speakers to work effectively, you would think the drivers in 5.1 headphones are to close togather to make much of a difference.

[Leviathan41]

For gaming headphones I'll have to say the Plantronics Audio90s. After all when getting gaming headphones you want something with a mic.
Yeah, I have some of those too, they work well. My mic stopped working on the first pair I owned, but Plantronics replaced them for no charge.

[secretweapon]

Sennheiser PC150/155s. Great sound and it has a noise canceling mike.

[CPUonNO2]

I smell a poll

[BigRed]

My setup:

Sennheiser HD650s (Selling a pair in the classifides right now ;))
ZuMobius cable upgrade for the 650's
Headroom Maxed out home Amp with reference electronics modules
Maudio firewire audiophile external soundcard
Audiophile black coral IC's

$2,100 total (With more additions/upgrades planned)
:attn: :attn: :attn:

now OVBIOUSLY thats not for you :p

In my expereince the 5.1 headphones sound like ass. Those who say they sound good must have only owned $10 headsets before those. The 5.1 thing is a gimmick, gives a slight seperation to the audio but if you have a decent pair of headphones that doesnt really matter.

Plantronics = garbage

The grados previously mentioned would be good except they arent the most comfortable for wearing a long time.
There are plenty of decent headphones for cheap. If you are REALLY on a budget get yourself a pair of sennheiser HD497's, can be had for around $50 and they sound excelent for the price (owned a pair for 2 years).

If you have a bit more to spend get a pair of Sennheiser HD555's Good sound from those.

Most of the 5xx line is trash (can get somthing far better for the same price). The 555's, 580's, and 595's are the best preformers out of that area.

[Kunaak]

you know, I've heard 5.1 headphones for real home theatre stuff, not on a computer yet.
for the home theatre it was really impressive.
sounded like true 5.1 to me, and was really effective for making the movie stand out more then the plain headphones beside it.
that was at bestbuy like a year ago in seattle.

now I am here in alaska, with a 10 dollar pair of earphones that came with my sony CD player, and I turn on EAX and I can't tell the difference.
I know where everything is, cause of the EAX.
maybe I just got super hearing or something, but I can't tell the difference between EAX and headphones in games, and expensive home theatre 5.1 headphones I heard a year ago.

[TheGreySpectre]

depends on what you want to spend, I really like my senn 477s but if you want to spend a lot more you can get a lot better sound

unfortunaly i dont think there any really nice headphones that have a mic attatched though

[Alacritan]

Grado SR60's's. Definitely the best bang for your buck. You won't be able to tell the difference between them and anything more expensive unless you're listening to music on a higher quality source than your computer and are actively listening for the difference.

I think a lot of people forget the PC doesn't exactly offer the best audio quality. A Soundblaster Audigy card, despite being the best quality consumer (non professional) sound card, isn't that great. Certainly not for audiophiles. And then you consider that games aren't recorded at very high quality and spending any more than about $100 on headphones is overkill. You won't hear it because the range of your headphones and their response is beyond the requirements of the sound being produced by the game and your computer.

I enjoyed my SR60's very much, and I'll be the first to admit that my SR80's are only slightly better in most circumstances and probably a waste of money in my case. I need to buy a better amplifier to really appreciate them.

[OC Noob]

My setup:

Sennheiser HD650s (Selling a pair in the classifides right now ;))
ZuMobius cable upgrade for the 650's
Headroom Maxed out home Amp with reference electronics modules
Maudio firewire audiophile external soundcard
Audiophile black coral IC's

$2,100 total (With more additions/upgrades planned)
:attn: :attn: :attn:

now OVBIOUSLY thats not for you :p

In my expereince the 5.1 headphones sound like ass. Those who say they sound good must have only owned $10 headsets before those. The 5.1 thing is a gimmick, gives a slight seperation to the audio but if you have a decent pair of headphones that doesnt really matter.

Plantronics = garbage

The grados previously mentioned would be good except they arent the most comfortable for wearing a long time.
There are plenty of decent headphones for cheap. If you are REALLY on a budget get yourself a pair of sennheiser HD497's, can be had for around $50 and they sound excelent for the price (owned a pair for 2 years).

If you have a bit more to spend get a pair of Sennheiser HD555's Good sound from those.

Most of the 5xx line is trash (can get somthing far better for the same price). The 555's, 580's, and 595's are the best preformers out of that area.

Man, I've wanted to buy a sweet set of headphones and an amp for a while, but can't justify the steap price tag at the moment. I'll bet your set up sounds as good as a $25k+ speaker setup. Thats the great thing about headphones, they sound astounding for the price and your wife doesn't bitch at you because they are too loud at night:D

[BigRed]

Man, I've wanted to buy a sweet set of headphones and an amp for a while, but can't justify the steap price tag at the moment. I'll bet your set up sounds as good as a $25k+ speaker setup. Thats the great thing about headphones, they sound astounding for the price and your wife doesn't bitch at you because they are too loud at night:D
They do sound great :D

Everyone who has heard them at the lan parties that I help run has used the term "Eargasm" :p

[John G]

I think a lot of people forget the PC doesn't exactly offer the best audio quality. A Soundblaster Audigy card, despite being the best quality consumer (non professional) sound card, isn't that great. Certainly not for audiophiles. And then you consider that games aren't recorded at very high quality and spending any more than about $100 on headphones is overkill. You won't hear it because the range of your headphones and their response is beyond the requirements of the sound being produced by the game and your computer.

That's largely true, but here's something that's pretty achievable for the average PCer... Digital output on a mobo (Like NF&-S) to a HT receiver with a headphone output. As long as it's a decent piece of equipment with enough voltage on the headphone output to drive the load your particular headphones present with lots of headroom (usually not a problem) it's going to be good enough to sound pretty much indistinguishable from anything of "higher audiophile quality". It's pretty easy with modern electronics to get below the threshold of what human ears can perceive in the eletrical domain.

Normally, differences in headphones and speakers can be heard even with mediocre equipment up stream because anything that headphones or speakers do to alter the sound (which is a question of how they do, not if they do) from the original, they do it the exact same way to an inferior recording or poorly reproduced signal as they do to a decent signal or recording. Though, I'm not saying that improving some inferior electronics or recordings couldn't make a bigger difference than the sometimes very minor differences between two high-end sets of cans.

:)

John G

[tricknasty]

i have a medusa 5.1 surround headset. works great and sounds pretty good when gaming. its for the most part directional, you can hear something from behind you but its a little hard distinguishing between the center channel and the front channel. u can pick a pair up at www.firebox.com if you were interested

[OC Noob]

That's largely true, but here's something that's pretty achievable for the average PCer... Digital output on a mobo (Like NF&-S) to a HT receiver with a headphone output. As long as it's a decent piece of equipment with enough voltage on the headphone output to drive the load your particular headphones present with lots of headroom (usually not a problem) it's going to be good enough to sound pretty much indistinguishable from anything of "higher audiophile quality". It's pretty easy with modern electronics to get below the threshold of what human ears can perceive in the eletrical domain.

Normally, differences in headphones and speakers can be heard even with mediocre equipment up stream because anything that headphones or speakers do to alter the sound (which is a question of how they do, not if they do) from the original, they do it the exact same way to an inferior recording or poorly reproduced signal as they do to a decent signal or recording. Though, I'm not saying that improving some inferior electronics or recordings couldn't make a bigger difference than the sometimes very minor differences between two high-end sets of cans.

:)

John G

It also depends on volume and how well trained your ear is. You'd be amazed what some of these audiophiles can hear. Its just like a musician with a trained ear. Good for us most people (like me) don't notice that much of a difference, or atleast not enough to bother me.

Computer sources suffer from all sorts of interferance that you won't get with a high end amp and the source quality is often much lower. i.e. DVD-A/SA-CD vs 128kb (is it kb?) MP3's from the Napster equivlant. Even if the source is a quality and the equiptment it was running through was a $10k+ tube system it will still suffer from interference from all that junk in the computer. Computers are just poor sources for audio, but then again like you said most people aren't going to notice the difference unless they have a high end system for reference.

And with headphones you can throw the headphone amp into the equation. Audiophiles swear it makes a world of difference with their high end cups, but I have no experince with those amps though, so I can't say from experince. Most headphone jacks on recievers don't put out much voltage so I can see the amps making some difference.


Anyway, my point is there is a percievable difference there, it may not be a big difference depending on who you ask, but it is there:)

ps there are also errors of omision where the sound just isn't produced on low end equiptment rather then there being a difference in the sound quality.

[madcow235]

Saying there is no noticeable difference between Low-fi sources, PCDP, and mid-fi setups, a comp with a DECENT NON AUDIGY SOUND CARD, between 2 headphones of different prices isn't true. I tested some Sennheiser 580s and tehy sounded WAY better then my 497s with mp3s alone with cd's it was heaven. Now i didn't buy those 580's because they were too reserved for me and i got some Grado sr225s which just cream my 497s.

[koss20100]

i use some ****ty koss ur-15 it hurtz when there on for to long the sound isnt clean but.... the bass is awsome , and so is the price jus 20bux :)

[Tatuya]

i use some ****ty koss ur-15 it hurtz when there on for to long the sound isnt clean but.... the bass is awsome , and so is the price jus 20bux :)
Speak of the devil, I just bought a set of Koss U-18s today! Much better than using crappy regular headphones.

[OC Noob]

Speak of the devil, I just bought a set of Koss U-18s today! Much better than using crappy regular headphones.

Yeah, its funny how much better just going with a decent set of $20 or $30 cans is over the included headphones with a CD player or whatever. Its like they s**t in a cup and attach a wire with a 1/8" jack to them:D

[Moorsie]

Ive got a pair of the 5.1 Zalman headphones, had them about 3 weeks now and have no complaints whatsoever! The bass is pretty good and the surround sound effect does work well IMO. Have worn them for long periods of time too and they have been very comfortable for me. I got mine in the UK for about £35 and i think they are well worth it :)

[BigRed]

Like I said before. Those who have heard much better headphones think that the 5.1 ones are crap. The drivers in them just arnt that good.

They just put 6 of them in.
6 crap speakers does not = good :p

[Bensa]

Like I said before. Those who have heard much better headphones think that the 5.1 ones are crap. The drivers in them just arnt that good.

They just put 6 of them in.
6 crap speakers does not = good :p

I have tried tons of different headphones and speakers, so this is a fair analysis. The sound quality is average, these aren't exactly meant for music, they are for games and movies. How often do you listen to music on a surround setup rather than some good stereo speakers?

[OC Noob]

I have tried tons of different headphones and speakers, so this is a fair analysis. The sound quality is average, these aren't exactly meant for music, they are for games and movies. How often do you listen to music on a surround setup rather than some good stereo speakers?

Maybe the .1% of people who buy DVD-A or SA-CD and probably most of them don't, lol.

I'm begining to wonder if we will ever advance beyond CDs for mainstream music. With MP3's that step has become very difficult and with it 5.1 music. I guess until they can offer something more tangible then slightly increased quality (which most people can't take advatage of anyway) and 5.1 music its going to be a while before a new format take hold.

Its a shame you need a special player for DVD-A (to take advantage of what it offers over CDs) otherwise it might be more popular.

Anyway, yeah HT and gaming rather then music is a good use for 5.1 headphones. You are still going to get sounds omitted and things like that, but as stated games don't usually have high quality audio anyway.

[John G]

It also depends on volume and how well trained your ear is. You'd be amazed what some of these audiophiles can hear. Its just like a musician with a trained ear. Good for us most people (like me) don't notice that much of a difference, or atleast not enough to bother me.

Computer sources suffer from all sorts of interferance that you won't get with a high end amp and the source quality is often much lower. i.e. DVD-A/SA-CD vs 128kb (is it kb?) MP3's from the Napster equivlant. Even if the source is a quality and the equiptment it was running through was a $10k+ tube system it will still suffer from interference from all that junk in the computer. Computers are just poor sources for audio, but then again like you said most people aren't going to notice the difference unless they have a high end system for reference.

And with headphones you can throw the headphone amp into the equation. Audiophiles swear it makes a world of difference with their high end cups, but I have no experince with those amps though, so I can't say from experince. Most headphone jacks on recievers don't put out much voltage so I can see the amps making some difference.


Anyway, my point is there is a percievable difference there, it may not be a big difference depending on who you ask, but it is there:)

ps there are also errors of omision where the sound just isn't produced on low end equiptment rather then there being a difference in the sound quality.

I'll start off with that I'm a huge "audio" guy... A lot more so than I am a computer guy. I sometimes drive my wife a little crazy with it, though I have converted her to a large degree. :p I do have a lot in common with the weird "audiophiles" that write in the magazines and stuff. I do have one major difference with the typical audiophile guys, though... That is that I try to be objective and use scientific basis as much as possible.

Audiophiles do hear all kinds of incredible nuance and such in systems... A lot of it is real. But...a lot of it is simply in their head. Hearing is a function of our brain translating nerve impulses from our ears into useful information. Knowing that, it's not hard to see the reality of psychoacoustics. The medical community has long used the scientific method to test drugs. They give people the real thing, and they give other people placebo to try to eliminate the psychological factor in their testing. Audio testing also requires that the psychological factor be eliminated to get valid results.

In a lot of these magazines and such, you'll see reviews and articles about amplifiers. How they compare, which sounds better, etc... They will say with absolute certainty that they hear some special quality in one amp that isn't the same in the other. Warm midrange, smooth highs, fuller bass, sparkling detail, and all sorts of adjectives that people would normally use to describe food... All in an attempt to say that the amp simply has a sonic character that causes it to sound different than the other amp at the same volume and neither amp distorting. And, these are usually extremely high quality amps with ruler flat response, very low distortion, noise free, etc...great specs.

I have heard those sorts of differences in amps myself, although I would have been hard pressed to put descriptive terms on them like they do. I probably would have just said, "This one creates a slightly more believable auditory illusion." And, maybe try to pinpoint why.

But, how do you eliminate psychological effects from testing amps? With a double blind test.

There's a guy named Richard Clark...he has a lot of education with audio stuff and science and physics in general. Has made a lot of money for himself, owns a company that makes CD's, and a few other ventures. Has some patents on various audio stuff that he developed. Someone introduced double blind testing to him years ago and he learned that with amps, as long as they meet certain standards (basically a decent, modern amp without serious design flaws) and are used within their linear operating range (not into distortion) that people cannot reliably tell the difference between two amps with their sense of hearing. He brought it up to the community...some accepted it, most did not. He ended up refining his test and turning it into a $10,000 challenge. If anyone can tell the difference between any two amps that meet some very basic requirements in his double blind test, they win $10,000 of his own money. If they lose, nothing happens other than a possible education on amps. So far, thousands have taken his challenge...no one has won.

Basically, in that challenge, people get to pick what amps, what speakers, what music, have control of the volume the whole time, and can switch between amp A, amp B, and an unknown that is either A or B at will. Their task it to try to determine if the unknown is A or B, then rinse and repeat. They are unaware which amp is actually playing, and the person administering the test is also unaware since the unknown is randomly generated by a computer. (That's the double blind part.) People often believe they hear a difference while taking the test and are getting it right every time...expect to get a perfect score, then end up with results as though they had flipped a coin each time. Some people realize part way through the test that all three options sound the same once they can only rely on their sense of hearing.

This is not to say that all amps are the same...because they are not. More power is still better. Features still matter. Build quality can still be a factor. Price is a factor. Aesthetics...size....some have design issues. And, some amps actually purposely change the sound...but, then they are no longer just providing amplification. The guy who does that challenge still likes buying expensive amps.

There's a lot of things in audio that, as long as they meet certain requirements, they don't contribute to the sound of the system in an audible way. Sensitive test equipment may be able to show a difference, but it doesn't mean we can percieve it with our hearing. Wires & cables, preamps, and CD players are often things that also fall under that catagory. Not always, but often. Something that people with good, trained ears can almost always show that they can hear a difference between in a double blind test is speakers. Media formats are an interesting topic...

Computers aren't necessarily a bad source for audio... Computers are used a lot in recording studios nowadays. They're capable of doing very well. Where computers normally start to have issues is when the audio signal gets out of the digital domain and into the analog domain. Computer parts are often designed to be as cheap as possible and corners are cut in the circuit design. Low output, high noise floor, poor regulation. It doesn't take much money to get good results, but in PC parts, you're rarely going to get something that isn't compromised in some way. The easiest thing that I've found to do is simply to never leave the digital domain until outside of the PC. I was overjoyed when nVidia introduced hardware Dolby Digital encoding in the nForce chipsets...awesome audio at an integrated price!

Headphone amps do make a difference...especially with a lot of higher end cans that have relatively high nominal impedance. A lot of headphone outputs are capable of enough wattage to get very loud, but not necessarily enough voltage...there is a distinction there. Directly from the computer, you might not have either...along with poor dynamic range, high noise floor, etc... Headphone amps can solve a dynamic range problem.

:) Hopefully I didn't bore the pants off people.

John G

[BigRed]

Maybe the .1% of people who buy DVD-A or SA-CD and probably most of them don't, lol.

I'm begining to wonder if we will ever advance beyond CDs for mainstream music. With MP3's that step has become very difficult and with it 5.1 music. I guess until they can offer something more tangible then slightly increased quality (which most people can't take advatage of anyway) and 5.1 music its going to be a while before a new format take hold.

Its a shame you need a special player for DVD-A (to take advantage of what it offers over CDs) otherwise it might be more popular.

Anyway, yeah HT and gaming rather then music is a good use for 5.1 headphones. You are still going to get sounds omitted and things like that, but as stated games don't usually have high quality audio anyway.
Most good, newer, dvd players can play DVD-A
I have one hooked up to my headphone setup for that very purpose :p

[Mike89]

I agree with John on the double blind tests. That test could apply to so many other things that would show a lot of people how much they really didn't know that they thought they did. From really being able to tell the difference between which beer to which speakers, which amp, which headphone, how much aniso you have on, etc etc etc. So many other factors, senses/nuances/brain processing/emotion etc are being used besides the one that is thought is being used and probably the most important factor is that it is known before it is tried (an expectation or lack of one is going to be a powerful influence right from the gate). I bet even a great number of people in this thread would flunk a double blind test on which headphones were being used if the exact same pads/harness was used for each, they were blindfolded, and they didn't know what was what. Sure some might be able to tell a crappy set from a good set but I bet there would be an awful lot of surprised faces at the end.

Senses are a wonder thing but senses can be tricked by the brain.

[BigRed]

In a lot of these magazines and such, you'll see reviews and articles about amplifiers. How they compare, which sounds better, etc... They will say with absolute certainty that they hear some special quality in one amp that isn't the same in the other. Warm midrange, smooth highs, fuller bass, sparkling detail, and all sorts of adjectives that people would normally use to describe food... All in an attempt to say that the amp simply has a sonic character that causes it to sound different than the other amp at the same volume and neither amp distorting. And, these are usually extremely high quality amps with ruler flat response, very low distortion, noise free, etc...great specs.

I have heard those sorts of differences in amps myself, although I would have been hard pressed to put descriptive terms on them like they do. I probably would have just said, "This one creates a slightly more believable auditory illusion." And, maybe try to pinpoint why.

But, how do you eliminate psychological effects from testing amps? With a double blind test.

There's a guy named Richard Clark...he has a lot of education with audio stuff and science and physics in general. Has made a lot of money for himself, owns a company that makes CD's, and a few other ventures. Has some patents on various audio stuff that he developed. Someone introduced double blind testing to him years ago and he learned that with amps, as long as they meet certain standards (basically a decent, modern amp without serious design flaws) and are used within their linear operating range (not into distortion) that people cannot reliably tell the difference between two amps with their sense of hearing. He brought it up to the community...some accepted it, most did not. He ended up refining his test and turning it into a $10,000 challenge. If anyone can tell the difference between any two amps that meet some very basic requirements in his double blind test, they win $10,000 of his own money. If they lose, nothing happens other than a possible education on amps. So far, thousands have taken his challenge...no one has won.

Basically, in that challenge, people get to pick what amps, what speakers, what music, have control of the volume the whole time, and can switch between amp A, amp B, and an unknown that is either A or B at will. Their task it to try to determine if the unknown is A or B, then rinse and repeat. They are unaware which amp is actually playing, and the person administering the test is also unaware since the unknown is randomly generated by a computer. (That's the double blind part.) People often believe they hear a difference while taking the test and are getting it right every time...expect to get a perfect score, then end up with results as though they had flipped a coin each time. Some people realize part way through the test that all three options sound the same once they can only rely on their sense of hearing.


So... In this contest we get to choose the amp, speakers (headphones?), AND music?

How is that a fair contest and/or test? Someone could just pick a tube amp and a solid state amp and win :p Its very easy to tell the difference in the sound between those.

Or just pick amps that are not in the same class. Ive heard a $3,800 amp before (Headroom Blockhead) and it beats the crap out of my headroom MOH. I agree that most of those review people are full of **** but you can tell a difference between different classes of amps. Granted there is more of a difference in low-mid class than mid-high but its still easy to tell the difference.

I disagree with the fact that as long as certain components meet requirements you cant tell the difference.
Example: My cables for the HD650's. Ive tried the ZuMobius and the silverdragon HD650 cables (one is copper/silver, the latter is all silver) and there is a most noteable difference in them. Plus like I said about the amps there is a most noteable difference between the type of amp (Tube/solid state) and its class (low-mid-high).

[John G]

So... In this contest we get to choose the amp, speakers (headphones?), AND music?

How is that a fair contest and/or test? Someone could just pick a tube amp and a solid state amp and win :p Its very easy to tell the difference in the sound between those.

Or just pick amps that are not in the same class. Ive heard a $3,800 amp before (Headroom Blockhead) and it beats the crap out of my headroom MOH. I agree that most of those review people are full of **** but you can tell a difference between different classes of amps. Granted there is more of a difference in low-mid class than mid-high but its still easy to tell the difference.

I disagree with the fact that as long as certain components meet requirements you cant tell the difference.
Example: My cables for the HD650's. Ive tried the ZuMobius and the silverdragon HD650 cables (one is copper/silver, the latter is all silver) and there is a most noteable difference in them. Plus like I said about the amps there is a most noteable difference between the type of amp (Tube/solid state) and its class (low-mid-high).

Yep, he allows a lot of latitude.

He does allow tube amps vs. solid state with a few considerations... Remember that both amps aren't allowed to distort significantly. He will limit the max volume to the lesser of the two. The biggest real difference between tube and solid state is how they perform under overload conditions. If the tube amp is an exceptionally good design, that'll be all that's required. If the output impedance is found to be excessively high (super low damping factor, leads to shifts in frequency response depending on the speaker load), he will add a resistor in line with the speaker on the solid state amp to degrade it down to the level of the tube amp to level the playing field. It turned out a lot of people's "warm tube sound" was just horrible output impedance...solid state amps can have it too with less than $5 worth of parts. The rest is the abundance of 2nd order distortion when driven into overload...which an amp meant for high fidelity reproduction should not be allowed to overload in the first place. No one has been able to pick out a tube from solid state under those conditions yet.

With an amp having a lot more headroom (or just pure power output capability), that can indeed have an audible difference at high volumes in the real world. However, as mentioned before, if neither amp is allowed into distortion significantly (an amp running out of headroom would distort), you won't be able to tell during the test. As long as both amps have decent (real) specs, you can compare a $250 HT receiver to a pair of $10,000 monoblocks and not be able to tell the difference during the test. But, the max volume will be limited to what the receiver is capable of. Most of the time people take the challenge, they are comparing "budget junk" to something expensive.

That's okay, since the purpose of the challenge isn't to show that one amp can play louder than another (we already know that), but that there isn't any mysterious sonic character that science can't put a finger on when you use X audiophile transistor, or Y audiophile circuit design.

On the comparison between your headphone cables, there may really be a difference between the two, but it would boil down to one or both of the cables not really doing their job as a cable right (changing the sound somehow, which neither should do) by having high resistance or inductance or a break one of the conductors or something like that. Probably not the case, though. Most likely, both are good cables. Even so, I would not doubt that you heard a difference between the two. I have heard such differences myself with amps and cables and such. However, when I put them into a fair test, the differences would fall away and I couldn't even tell what I was listening too. Then, mind armed with a new set of knowledge and expectations, I was perfectly happy listening to either one.

John G

[Gongo56]

HELP CALL FEMA MY THREAD'S BEEN DERAILED.

hah.. thanks guys... dsp-500's it is.

[funnyperson1]

Depends on personal preference, really. If you're going to be gaming w/ headphones, you should select a set that are comfortable to wear for extended periods, and have a nice sound range (again, even that is personal preference).

I use a set of Sony MRD-CD 280's, and they're very nice, comfortable headphones w/ nice clean sound.
I also have these headphones. Not the best for music, but they do pretty well for games, gunshots and explosions are quite impressive.

Also they are the most comfortable headphones I have ever worn, and I have worn a lot of headphones. The soft felt covered pads go around your ears and the band auto-adjusts to your head. On top of it all they are pretty light for the size. They do tend to get a little warm though after a while.

For around $20 bucks these are great phones for long gaming sessions.

[redken]

About a year ago when I was in the dilemma of choosing the right set of cans for me, I looked high and low for the best I could find at a reasonable price having "gaming" in mind not really music.
After testing most of the cans mentioned here (most very good) and doing a lot of research, I decided that the Grado SR-80 were for me. My Audigy (P) dives them like a dream and I used some old Senheiser pads to make them more comfy.

[BigRed]

Yep, he allows a lot of latitude.

He does allow tube amps vs. solid state with a few considerations... Remember that both amps aren't allowed to distort significantly. He will limit the max volume to the lesser of the two. The biggest real difference between tube and solid state is how they perform under overload conditions. If the tube amp is an exceptionally good design, that'll be all that's required. If the output impedance is found to be excessively high (super low damping factor, leads to shifts in frequency response depending on the speaker load), he will add a resistor in line with the speaker on the solid state amp to degrade it down to the level of the tube amp to level the playing field. It turned out a lot of people's "warm tube sound" was just horrible output impedance...solid state amps can have it too with less than $5 worth of parts. The rest is the abundance of 2nd order distortion when driven into overload...which an amp meant for high fidelity reproduction should not be allowed to overload in the first place. No one has been able to pick out a tube from solid state under those conditions yet.

With an amp having a lot more headroom (or just pure power output capability), that can indeed have an audible difference at high volumes in the real world. However, as mentioned before, if neither amp is allowed into distortion significantly (an amp running out of headroom would distort), you won't be able to tell during the test. As long as both amps have decent (real) specs, you can compare a $250 HT receiver to a pair of $10,000 monoblocks and not be able to tell the difference during the test. But, the max volume will be limited to what the receiver is capable of. Most of the time people take the challenge, they are comparing "budget junk" to something expensive.

That's okay, since the purpose of the challenge isn't to show that one amp can play louder than another (we already know that), but that there isn't any mysterious sonic character that science can't put a finger on when you use X audiophile transistor, or Y audiophile circuit design.

On the comparison between your headphone cables, there may really be a difference between the two, but it would boil down to one or both of the cables not really doing their job as a cable right (changing the sound somehow, which neither should do) by having high resistance or inductance or a break one of the conductors or something like that. Probably not the case, though. Most likely, both are good cables. Even so, I would not doubt that you heard a difference between the two. I have heard such differences myself with amps and cables and such. However, when I put them into a fair test, the differences would fall away and I couldn't even tell what I was listening too. Then, mind armed with a new set of knowledge and expectations, I was perfectly happy listening to either one.

John G

I have listened to both my headroom MOH (high-mid range solid state) and a SinglePower MPX3 (High-mid range tube amp which had $300 worth of upgrades/mods done ot it) side by side. Listening to the same part of a song ive heard tons of times on good equipment (FYI, a perfet circle - weak and powerless) and there is most certainly a difference. Granted it is small but the audio has a different... character to it.

I moreso prefer solid state amps cause I hate the 'tubey' sound (sounds too.. muddy). On the tube amp the bass sounded like it was under water and everything wasnt as clear.

Whats this guys contact #/email now? ;)

The cables for the headphones are both the highest quality cables you can get. Silver and copper just have different acustical properties, or prehaps one is more conductive than the other.

[John G]

I have listened to both my headroom MOH (high-mid range solid state) and a SinglePower MPX3 (High-mid range tube amp which had $300 worth of upgrades/mods done ot it) side by side. Listening to the same part of a song ive heard tons of times on good equipment (FYI, a perfet circle - weak and powerless) and there is most certainly a difference. Granted it is small but the audio has a different... character to it.

I moreso prefer solid state amps cause I hate the 'tubey' sound (sounds too.. muddy). On the tube amp the bass sounded like it was under water and everything wasnt as clear.

Whats this guys contact #/email now? ;)

The cables for the headphones are both the highest quality cables you can get. Silver and copper just have different acustical properties, or prehaps one is more conductive than the other.

I'm not sure if he still checks it or if it's up to date, but a2000rich@aol.com is an email address I know of offhand. I have a couple possible phone numbers too. If you're serious about contacting him, I could ask him what the best way would be. He's in North Carolina. He used to do his challenge a lot, but has gotten a little bored with it over the years. He'll typically do it for pretty much anybody, but isn't as willing to travel himself very far anymore without a good reason. People are typically always welcome to come to him. It's a real good learning experience for someone who's really into audio gear.

Typically, when people compare gear even fairly or blindly, the most common thing that causes them to actually hear a difference are very small level differences. Very small level differences often aren't perceived as one being louder than the other, but one being slightly more involving, dynamic, etc. than the other. People with good, trained ears can hear small differences like that. In RC's challenge, he usually does two rounds...in the first round he just sets it all up pretty close to save time. Sometimes he comes across someone with an exceptional ear and they pass. If they do, he uses an Audio Precision to measure and matches the levels to within 0.05 db for the second round and then no body passes that.

I don't like tube gear either. Usually, they just don't have enough power capability, so you get audible distortion when trying to listen at a reasonable level. That, and the often horrible output impedance... Damping factors over 20-30 can't be heard anymore, but a lot of tube amps end up in single digits. That's why a lot want high nominal impedance speakers, to improve the effective damping factor. Now, guitar amps and stuff are another story altogether...guitar amps usually MAKE sound rather than just amplify. With the intention of making sound, tube amps can be good.

Silver and copper do have different eletrical properties. (Other metals included.) However, they are very measurable and predictable. Silver has slightly higher conductivity, which gives you slightly lower resistance for the same size cable. But, unless resistance is a problem design wise, it's not going to impact the sound other than maybe an imperceptable drop in level. Also, from an engineering perspective, for less money with copper you can have a heavier cable even better electrical properties than silver.

Just to pick on the audiophiles a little bit... How much good can a silver cable really do when you pass the signal through the 30+ ft of copper wire in the inductors of the passive crossover on a speaker, then through the copper interconnects in the speaker, through the aluminum voice coil in the tweeter, through the copper voice coils in the woofers, etc...? :) To which they might say, "Well, that's why we need all silver voice coils and passive crossover components." However, there are other properties of metals that actually make silver a poor choice for voice coils. Copper and aluminum are really pretty much the only good choices available, depending on what you are trying to do.

BTW, sorry about hijacking the thread...

John G