Harmon Kardon AVS 8” Powered Sub

[Rafjr00]

How does it compair too the Velodyne CHT-10. I looked for the cht-10 by the link that Maxvla had in one of hispost but it is out of stock...is there another place to get it for around the same price. I am pretty much matching Max's setup for my HT cept I 4 speakers for free that i am using in place of the HKB-6's. The ones I have are wall mounts, but i am going to build some boxes for them. I could use some good info/links for the physical placment of the speakers...Was plaing on hanging them from the ceiling/wall as i am using this in the living room. Also if I have them setup as such how bad would it sound playing music if i went into a room that is open too the living room but behind the rear speakers. Sry if I am not making much sense...I am on pain killer atm as I had all 4 wisdom teeth pulled yesterday and yes my HT system is going to be my gift to myself for putting myself through that. :santa2:

[Ryan T]

Ouch, getting your wisdom teeth pulled realy sucks. I had mine done last year :P. It was just a month before I had to move too :/.

As to the subwoofer. The Velo will pretty much kill the 8" H/K subwoofer. I dunno if you'll be able to get the CHT-10 for that same price anywere else. Have you considered geting the CHT-12? I think its only like $50 more and for a larger setup like a HT in a living room or whatever the added power for the 12" would be good. If its a small bedroom HT then you could probably get away with an 8" but you would be much more pleased with the quality of the velo in my opinion.


Ryan

[Maxvla]

you can get the CHT-10 for right around 190-200 from several online stores. use www.froogle.com to find them.

[Rafjr00]

Ok cool I think the living room is around 12 by 13 ft. So I was looing at an 8-10'' sub. I don't want to drive the neighbor crazy...thought she says she can't hear much throught the wall, but I can always upgrade. I just PMed you back Ryan (which happens to be one of my lil bro's names :-)) I am trying to get the avr 125 and the Infinity Entra center. I have four speakers already...BIC America: Venturi VI-38. I ask Ryan if he ever heard of them how about you Maxvla?
What about the VX-10 is it an ok sub?
What about the Infinity Alpha 2Way Dual 5-1/4" for the center channel?

[Maxvla]

never heard of your speakers. i've never personally heard the VX-10, what are its specs?

the infinity alpha isn't going to be a whole lot better than the entra with the 5 1/4 drivers like i have. save your money and get the entra.

[Rafjr00]

VX-10:# 10" (8.2" piston diameter) coated fiber cone with an inverted dust cap
# 2" Voice Coil
# Magnet: Structure 40 ounces
# The internal high-pass crossover is variable from 50-200 Hz
# A discrete component A/B class amplifier
# 100 watts RMS/150 watts Dynamic Power
# Cabinet: An acoustically neutral LDF, ported enclosure
# "RCA" inputs for connection to the subwoofer/LFE output of a receiver or processor and spring-loaded, high-level inputs. RCA low-level outputs and spring-loaded, high-level outputs are included.
# The surface mounted woofer grill has acoustically transparent cloth.
# Gain (volume) control
# Variable low pass
# Phase switch
# High and low level inputs and outputs
# On/off switch
# Signal sensing on/off
# LED power indicator
# Full video shielding.
# Frequency Response: 36-120 Hz +/-3dB
# Dimensions H/W/D: 15"x 12" x 17"
# Weight: 35 lbs.
As for the infinity alpha I like the look of it better...is it on the same level as the entra as far as proformance in your opinion?

[Rafjr00]

As for the VI-38:Design- Three-way in-wall
speaker system with concentric
tweeter
-Frequency Response-
36 Hz- 23 kHz
-Sensitivity- 90 dB @ 1 watt,
1 meter
-Recommended Amplifier
Power- 10-120 watts per chan.
-Driver Complement- 8"
poly/graphite cone woofer, 2.5"
poly midrange, 1" titanium
dome tweeter
-Crossover- 600 Hz,
3 kHz (12 db per octave)
-Impedance- 8 Ohms
-Dimensions- 14" H , 10" W ,
3 3/4" D
-Finish- White ABS plastic,
white metal grille
-Limited Warranty- 7 years
Parts & Labor
http://www.bicamerica.com/in%20wall%202%20specs.htm

[Maxvla]

100w VX vs 150w CHT

i'd rather have the CHT.

[Rafjr00]

Ok have to hunt them down :-)
Here is the speakers i have at the site you linked too for the sub.
http://www.etronics.com/product.asp?stk_code=bicvi38&store=&catid=4140

[Rafjr00]

ok how about this one Velodyne VRP-1000 10" Subwoofer:
# 10" forward firing Woofer
# Amplifier: Monolithic MOS Class A/B:

* 115 watts RMS
* 170 watts peak

# 35 Hz - 140 Hz Frequency Response (+/- 3 dB )
# 50 Hz - 200 Hz Low Pass Crossover
# 6 lbs Magnet Structure
# 2" copper-wound Voice Coil
# Coated Fiber Cone
# Full range Speaker-Level Pass-Through
# Left and right speaker level pass-through Outputs
# RCA Line, LFE and Speaker Level Inputs
# 0° or 180° Phase
# Auto On/Off
# Removable Grill
# Video Shielding
# LED power indicator
# Acoustically neutral, rear ported Cabinet Design
# Dimensions (h x w x d):15" x 12" x 17"
# Weight: 35 lbs
all for just :-p $239.95

[Maxvla]

more money for less power. negative.

[Rafjr00]

:-( ok guess I am going to just have to wait till they get the cht-12 back in stock. they don''t even show the cht-10 anymore.
Got the AVR-125 and Infinity Alpha on the way. now just got too figure out a size encloser for the 3-way speakers i have.

[Azzkiller]

more money for less power. negative.

I wouldnt base my buying decision on the amplifier power though.

The difference between 100 and 150 watts is only 1.8 decibels, which you probably wouldnt even hear.

[Maxvla]

I wouldnt base my buying decision on the amplifier power though.

The difference between 100 and 150 watts is only 1.8 decibels, which you probably wouldnt even hear.
i am not soley basing it on power but it is an indicator of overall quality within the same manufacturer.

[Spawne32]

I have the harmon kardon speakers that came with my dell still, it came witha small sub, i belive either 4 or 6" and their great speakers, great sound, i use them in combination with my sb x-gamer 5.1

[Droban]

How does it compair too the Velodyne CHT-10. I looked for the cht-10 by the link that Maxvla had in one of hispost but it is out of stock...is there another place to get it for around the same price. I am pretty much matching Max's setup for my HT cept I 4 speakers for free that i am using in place of the HKB-6's. The ones I have are wall mounts, but i am going to build some boxes for them. I could use some good info/links for the physical placment of the speakers...Was plaing on hanging them from the ceiling/wall as i am using this in the living room. Also if I have them setup as such how bad would it sound playing music if i went into a room that is open too the living room but behind the rear speakers. Sry if I am not making much sense...I am on pain killer atm as I had all 4 wisdom teeth pulled yesterday and yes my HT system is going to be my gift to myself for putting myself through that. :santa2:

Sorry, I was the one who ordered that sub off of Maxvla's post link. :p

4xHKB6
1xHKC
1xVelodyne CHT10
Yamaha HTR-5660
All that stuff should be comin in this week.

After I ordered my sub for 190, they raised it to 220(for stocking reasons I suppose, so I scored the deal, but 220 aint that bad is it?)
http://ww1.onecall.com/PID_12835.htm

There's also a Velodyne 8 inch for 180 on that site.

[Rafjr00]

Ya I am still thinking about just getting the 8 inch, but really want the 10. hehe
Anyone have a link for a good read on how too place all these speakers...I think I have a general idea but just want to go over the basics so I can get the best sound out of the room I am going to be putting all of this in.

[Azzkiller]

Ya I am still thinking about just getting the 8 inch, but really want the 10. hehe
Anyone have a link for a good read on how too place all these speakers...I think I have a general idea but just want to go over the basics so I can get the best sound out of the room I am going to be putting all of this in.

IMO Dolby's reccomendations work well in most cases:

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/home_entertainment/roomlayout.html

[Rafjr00]

Cool that was what I was looking for...Pretty much what I had in mind, but it only states that the front speakers should be near ear level...so can the rears be above your head say near the ceiling...also what is a good distence from the listener to each of the speakers? Sry if I am starting too be a pain don't know a thing about this stuff....but I'm trying :cool:

[RobxMcCarthy]

I think that people put WAY too much faith on specs alone... My receiver is 150 watts per chanel... But really to be honest the loudest I've EVER had it is at about 12-16 watts.. A good 65 watt amp (Azur 640a) mmm... would sound much better than mine... The huge difference in wattage won't really help that much. Are pretty relative values, with the Onkyo I have now topping out 200 watts dynamic and the Azur hitting 615....I'll have plenty of power.

This same logic needs to be applied to subs. Don't look at "rated at 150 watts" and squeal that it's better than one rated at 100...

A) How sensitive is the driver itself? If you have 150 watts hitting a 83 DB sensitivity.. you'll get less out of it than a 100 watt amp hitting 92 DB sensitivity.. (distortion also plays in here but in a sub it really doesn't matter all that much.)

The next thing to look at is what the maximum output is of the amplifier and what the RMS value is. You want an amplifier with the highest of the first so that it will be able to hit those dynamic highs with force. The RMS value allows a sub to hold a base tone for an extended period of time. You have to watch out for how they 'claim' their power... sony's are WAY under their "rated" power for nearly all amplifiers. Other companies are over..


Really the best advice I can give is to go with quality over quantity of watts...

[Buhammot]

Indeed /\, what he said. Would you rather have 50 apples where most of them have a soft spot or 2, or have 10 really good, juicy and downright tasty ones? I choose quality over price and quantity, price if i am capable of affording it at the time.

[Azzkiller]

Cool that was what I was looking for...Pretty much what I had in mind, but it only states that the front speakers should be near ear level...so can the rears be above your head say near the ceiling...also what is a good distence from the listener to each of the speakers? Sry if I am starting too be a pain don't know a thing about this stuff....but I'm trying :cool:

The rears can be above your head, yes. IME the surrounds arent near as important as front speakers regarding placement.

A good placement from the audience will depend on how large the room is, how far apart the speakers are and other factors.

[Azzkiller]

I think that people put WAY too much faith on specs alone... My receiver is 150 watts per chanel... But really to be honest the loudest I've EVER had it is at about 12-16 watts.. A good 65 watt amp (Azur 640a) mmm... would sound much better than mine... The huge difference in wattage won't really help that much. Are pretty relative values, with the Onkyo I have now topping out 200 watts dynamic and the Azur hitting 615....I'll have plenty of power.

The Azur amplifier puts out 65 watts, but 615 watts of "dynamic power"? Either they are extremely underrating the constant output power of the amplifier, or extremely exaggerating the dynamic power of the amplifier. That simply isnt possible unless the amplifier is extremely poorly designed.



A) How sensitive is the driver itself? If you have 150 watts hitting a 83 DB sensitivity.. you'll get less out of it than a 100 watt amp hitting 92 DB sensitivity.. (distortion also plays in here but in a sub it really doesn't matter all that much.)

I assume you are talking about the distortion produced by the subwoofer driver itself, because only in terrible amplifiers is the distortion even at the same level as the transducer distortion levels.


The next thing to look at is what the maximum output is of the amplifier and what the RMS value is. You want an amplifier with the highest of the first so that it will be able to hit those dynamic highs with force. The RMS value allows a sub to hold a base tone for an extended period of time. You have to watch out for how they 'claim' their power... sony's are WAY under their "rated" power for nearly all amplifiers. Other companies are over..

Maximum output? So these computer speakers must be good because they have a very high maximum output rating, right? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3702&item=5130980171&rd=1
Those speakers have a maximum rating of 4000 watts. Much higher maximum of any amplifier under 1000 dollars than I know of....

The RMS value says nothing about how long a subwoofer amplifier can play a bass tone unless you first specify a time window.


Really the best advice I can give is to go with quality over quantity of watts... Are you talking about acoustical watts or electrical watts here?

[RobxMcCarthy]

Azz... You have to take all things into consideration that I posted above. In the case where you asked if I was talking about the driver itself.. obviously I was talking about the driver... lol, a more sensitive driver won't make the amp distort more easily. But the driver itself might. It depends on the quality of the components. Most of which will not be explained in GREAT detail, in the case that they aren't you can still look at the amplifier and driver specs.

None of the above statements can be taken to the bank alone, you need a culmination of all the possible areas in order to get a good product. And even then there are huge gaps that depend on tansistor quality... capacitors etc.. I'd base it more strongly on reputable editorial reviews than technical specs myself. But atleast you can look out for those things.


As far as that 4000 watt system goes... I think that must be a mistake.. and I have no idea what * P.M.P.O. Output: 4000 W means so I can't really comment.

Now, concerning the Azur. I made a mistake there, when i went back to check it out again I found that it was actually 615 watts Maximum power useage. Most of which does transform directly into dynamic watts over all channels. And yes the azur is extremely under rated.

The reason I want the Azur integrated amp is because I have very edgy detailed speakers (athena as-f2's) and while the Tube preamp / DAC from cal audio labs does help take the edge off I'd like a more laid back amplifier. The onkyo is a very bright amp. Not exactly what I need.


All in all, things to look for:

Decent drivers: medium sensitivity, 90 ish dbs 1 watt 1 meter. High quality drivers (weighty magnets, decent voice coil dist 2.5-3 inches is preferable (this will save them in the long run from losing quality and make them less likely to bottom out) The OHM rating depends on what amplifier it's paired with... the general belief is that higher resistance = less total harmonic distortion for the amplifier. And will result in a longer lasting amp in most cases..

Decent amplifier: at least 100 watts for a sub (8-10) (probably 150 for 12 inch or higher), just so that it can keep up. I originally had a sub running on a 50 watt amp and it wasn't enough. It could hit but long bass rolls would drop off quickly, as it simply didn't have enough RMS output to keep up. High dynamic wattage on the amp. Low THD rating, although it matters considerably less on a subwoofer. There are so many specs to look for.. but those are the main ones.


My main point was, not all subs that are rated at a higher "wattage" sound better... you made a perfect example with those speakers. The RMS value was what 8 watts per speaker and 18 for the sub? Max output MIIIGHT be able to hit 400 but even that is extremely unlikely.

[Azzkiller]

Azz... You have to take all things into consideration that I posted above. In the case where you asked if I was talking about the driver itself.. obviously I was talking about the driver... lol, a more sensitive driver won't make the amp distort more easily.
I never said a more sensive driver would make the amp distort more easily, nor did I claim you did.


But the driver itself might.
Thats my point, the driver has THD levels much higher than only the worst quality amplifiers.


None of the above statements can be taken to the bank alone, you need a culmination of all the possible areas in order to get a good product.
I never took any of your statements alone, a statement that is wrong is wrong regardless of what its placed with.


As far as that 4000 watt system goes... I think that must be a mistake.. and I have no idea what * P.M.P.O. Output: 4000 W means so I can't really comment.
That 4000 watt power rating isnt a mistake, I can provide many more examples if you dont believe me. PMPO stands for peak music power output.

My point is that the peak rating doesnt mean much as it is measured differently from manufacturer to manufacturer.


The reason I want the Azur integrated amp is because I have very edgy detailed speakers (athena as-f2's) and while the Tube preamp / DAC from cal audio labs does help take the edge off I'd like a more laid back amplifier. The onkyo is a very bright amp. Not exactly what I need.

Not everyone believes that dacs/preamps/amplifers have a sonic signature, and there are many scientic studies to show that they don't.

We've been down this road before....



All in all, things to look for:

Decent drivers: medium sensitivity, 90 ish dbs 1 watt 1 meter. High quality drivers (weighty magnets, decent voice coil dist 2.5-3 inches is preferable (this will save them in the long run from losing quality and make them less likely to bottom out)

How do you figure that the diameter of the voice coil has anything to do with performance degredation over time. How would it do anything to make the driver bottom out less easily?

Even if you are talking about voice coil length, neither of those statements is correct. And I find it HIGHLY unlikely you'll find a driver with a voice coil that is 2.5 to 3 inches long (if that is what you are talking about?) in any subwoofer system less than 1000 dollars.



the general belief is that higher resistance = less total harmonic distortion for the amplifier.

That depends on the amplifier in question. Not all amplifiers have less THD with increasing impedence.


Decent amplifier: at least 100 watts for a sub (8-10) (probably 150 for 12 inch or higher), just so that it can keep up.
The size of the woofer has nothing to do with how much electrical input power it can handle. All other factors equal, a smaller diameter woofer will need MORE electrical input power to reach a given sound pressure level than a larger diameter woofer.


I originally had a sub running on a 50 watt amp and it wasn't enough. It could hit but long bass rolls would drop off quickly, as it simply didn't have enough RMS output to keep up. High dynamic wattage on the amp. Low THD rating, although it matters considerably less on a subwoofer. There are so many specs to look for.. but those are the main ones.
Most amplifiers can only put out slightly less than twice their RMS power rating when driven heavily past clipping. Amplifiers that truely have a dynamic power output of much greater (like 3 to 4 times) than the true RMS longterm rating are poorly made.

Dynamic Power is simply an inflate spec that usually gives you no indication of how the amplifier will perform.

An amplifier cannot magically put out more power than is dictated by its voltage rails, and the impedence of the load it is driving.


The RMS value was what 8 watts per speaker and 18 for the sub? Max output MIIIGHT be able to hit 400 but even that is extremely unlikely.

Exactly. And you'll see the same trend with almost every other amplifier system. No reputable manufacturer rates its product with a dynamic or peak power rating of more than twice the long term RMS rating, because it will be false. In fact, prosound amplifier manufactuers like Crown and QSC dont even provide a 'dynamic rating'. All they provide is the RMS power output.

[RobxMcCarthy]

"'Quote:
'But the driver itself might.'

Thats my point, the driver has THD levels much higher than only the worst quality amplifiers."

What's the argument then?

"'Quote:
the general belief is that higher resistance = less total harmonic distortion for the amplifier.'

That depends on the amplifier in question. Not all amplifiers have less THD with increasing impedence."

Well... every SINGLE one that I've EVER seen does.. unless you're talking about a SUPER ****ty amp or an Extremely expensive one.. Please find me one that doesn't, a subwoofer amp that is.

Where did I say voice coil diameter??? Voice coil length of 2.5 inches is not hard to find.. my infinity driver has that length.. and I grabbed it for $100. The longer distance makes it less likely to hit the magnet by providing more extension. When the coil strikes the magnet damage is almost always done. thus a greater distance decreases the odds of bottoming it out... Which I assume is what I wrote right above there..

Why are you arguing this, it's rediculous lol..

"The size of the woofer has nothing to do with how much electrical input power it can handle. All other factors equal, a smaller diameter woofer will need MORE electrical input power to reach a given sound pressure level than a larger diameter woofer."

Yes however the larger woofer has more electrical draw thus will deplete a lower RMS value quicker... The power handling of almost any sub is greater than 150 watts, that's not what I'm talking about. I mean what you will need to sustain a constant high volume level 30 hz tone. A smaller amp will roll off quickly once the capacitors have been drained.

[Azzkiller]

What's the argument then?
That the amplifier was distorting audibly when driven in its linear range.


Well... every SINGLE one that I've EVER seen does.. unless you're talking about a SUPER ****ty amp or an Extremely expensive one.. Please find me one that doesn't, a subwoofer amp that is.
http://www.carsound.com/review_archive/amps/vibe1200dchts.html

There is a Lanzar amp that clearly has less THD at max output with a 2ohm reactive load vs. a 4ohm reactive load. Do you consider it to be poor quality or overly expensive? I bought that amplifier for 250 dollars. If I could find some AP charts for home audio subwoofer amplifiers I'd use them too.



Where did I say voice coil diameter???
You said: "decent voice coil dist 2.5-3 inches"

What does "dist" mean? I couldnt tell if you were talking about diameter or length.


Voice coil length of 2.5 inches is not hard to find.. my infinity driver has that length.. and I grabbed it for $100. The longer distance makes it less likely to hit the magnet by providing more extension. When the coil strikes the magnet damage is almost always done. thus a greater distance decreases the odds of bottoming it out... Which I assume is what I wrote right above there..
Which infinity driver are you talking about? Do you mind showing me a spec sheet that confirms a length of 2.5 inches? And I figured we were talking about commercial, prebuilt home subwoofers here, since the topic is a harman kardon 8" powered subwoofer, not a DIY project.

How would a longer voice coil make it LESS LIKELY to hit the magnet? There is NO magnet on top of or underneath the voice coil to hit. You could hit the backplate, but that is NOT a magnet, or you could driver so hard that it jumps over the pole piece. But unless the driver is defective, the coil isnt going to rub against the magnet. The length of the voice coil has nothing to do with this. I suggest you read this webpage:
http://www.bcae1.com/speaker.htm


Why are you arguing this, it's rediculous lol..
Because its wrong. Spreading misinformation doesnt help anyone.


Yes however the larger woofer has more electrical draw thus will deplete a lower RMS value quicker... The power handling of almost any sub is greater than 150 watts, that's not what I'm talking about.

A larger woofer does not draw more power unless it has a lower impedence. This has NOTHING to do with how large the woofer cone is.


I mean what you will need to sustain a constant high volume level 30 hz tone. A smaller amp will roll off quickly once the capacitors have been drained.
That's obvious. What does that have to do with a larger diameter speaker needing more power though?

The power drawn by a speaker is dependent on the amplifier's output voltage, and the impedence of the voice coil. The woofer cone size will affect this at a negligible amount.

[RobxMcCarthy]

In any event on the voice coil issue, you want high max excursion is all I was getting at. Lower XMAX will cause it to bottom out more easily.

Larger cones almost always require larger amplifiers... You can drive a 4 ohm 6.5 inch sub with a 30 watt amp very easily (an average multi-media sub). Seriously try doing that with an 18 inch 4 ohm kicker... Even if they are rated to the same sensitivity there will be very minimal control...

On the subject of the amp you linked me to... you must have read the graphs completely wrong.. There's more thd on the 2 ohm resistance than the 4 ohm resistance by a considerable margain.

Why did you argue that point to begin with. I could see the voice coil portion as I may have been misinformed. But Almost ALL consumer level amps have more THD at lower impedance levels. Why would they have less THD at a resistance that causes much more stress on the amp?

[Azzkiller]

In any event on the voice coil issue, you want high max excursion is all I was getting at. Lower XMAX will cause it to bottom out more easily.
Then why didnt you just say so?


Larger cones almost always require larger amplifiers... You can drive a 4 ohm 6.5 inch sub with a 30 watt amp very easily (an average multi-media sub). Seriously try doing that with an 18 inch 4 ohm kicker... Even if they are rated to the same sensitivity there will be very minimal control...

The only time that could be correct is when you are at high output levels, and driving the amplifier past clipping. However, there is no reason why a 6.5" woofer couldnt be made that handles more power thermally and mechanically than an 18" woofer. At low listening levels this isnt an issue. Arent you the one who said you dont use more than 10-12 watts anyways? If so, why would you ever need more than a 30 watt amplifier?

If you are concerned about the amplifier not providing enough cone control, I urge you to stay as far away from tube amplifiers as you can. Many of them do a poor job in terms of control as compared to solid state designs.



On the subject of the amp you linked me to... you must have read the graphs completely wrong.. There's more thd on the 2 ohm resistance than the 4 ohm resistance by a considerable margain.

What? With a 4 ohm reactive load, THD does not go past 1 percent until about 500 watts. With a 2 ohm reactive load, THD does not go past 1 percent until about 900 watts. Are you implying that you can hear THD below 1 percent, with a subwoofer amplifier?


But Almost ALL consumer level amps have more THD at lower impedance levels. Why would they have less THD at a resistance that causes much more stress on the amp?

Because THD increases at a very high rate once you start clipping the amplifier. With a 2 ohm reactive load, clipping doesnt start until a much higher power output levels. From carsound: "Output Power (Reactive) {4-ohm IHF Load @ 60 Hz to 1% THD+N): 484 watts
Output Power (Reactive) (2-ohm IHF Load @ 60 Hz to 1% THD+N): 893 watts" When driving a 2ohm reactive load, the THD @ 500 watts is around .15 percent. With a 4ohm reactive load, the THD @ 500 watts is around 1 percent. Which do you feel is a better number?

That's almost a twofold increase in power. If the amplifier is well made and not driven excessively into clipping, there is no reason it cannot drive a lower impedence load safely if the manufacturer specifies it.

[Rafjr00]

Wow, ok it is going to take me some time to figure out what most of that is about. :cry:

[Azzkiller]

Wow, ok it is going to take me some time to figure out what most of that is about. :cry:

I wouldnt worry too much about it. A lot of that stuff doesnt even pertain to subwoofers you can buy prebuilt, as they dont provide those specifications.