Best Pump from Pet Store

[KX3]rAge · Oct 18, 2004

Hey, I'm trying to put together a cheap yet very effective water cooling system and I'm now working on the pump. I figure getting an aquarium pump from a pet store would be a lot cheaper then buying a pump specifically designed for water cooling yet it would/should serve the same purpose.
What pumps have you guys exerimented with that were bought from a pet store? Are they in general cheaper then a water cooling specific pump??
All input appreciated

ls7corvete · Oct 18, 2004

http://www.ocforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=127

[KX3]rAge · Oct 18, 2004

ls7corvete said:
http://www.ocforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=127

Already read through those, now anybody have what I actaully asked for? some EXPERIENCES with some pet store pumps??

Graystar · Oct 18, 2004

[KX3]rAge said:
I figure getting an aquarium pump from a pet store would be a lot cheaper then buying a pump specifically designed for water cooling yet it would/should serve the same purpose.

Well, you figured wrong. The collective experience on this forum is that cheap aquarium pumps tend to have leakage problems. Then, after you've fixed the leaks, the housing cracks.

I've tried Mag pumps and Maxi-Jet pumps. Other people have tried a variety of pet-store pumps like Via, Rio, Quiet One, and others. They all have the same problem. They simply aren't made well enough for our purposes.

You're gonna end up buying a good pump eventually...might as well get one right off the bat.

Bugsmasher · Oct 18, 2004

Well....considering most of the pumps that people use were designed for submersible pond/aquarium type use then leaks werent a big deal...leaking water for a submerged pump is not a big deal.

If you want to save money and be relatively worry free there is always the option of submerging your own pump in a home-made reservoir. That way if there is a slow leak then its no great problem. The downside being that you will be adding the heat from the pump to the coolant. Its one really good reason to run the loop like this pump>>radiator/heater core>>waterblock>>reservoir

Assuming the pump is actually submerged into the reservoir then you gain the benefit of pump stability- the pump is actually cooling itself as well.

Just a thought...

ls7corvete · Oct 18, 2004

PUMPS
are needed to push the water through the system and there are several brands and models to choose from to suit your needs . to decide which is best for you is a PERSONAL CHOICE YOU MAKE based usualy on case size and your budget. there are 2 basic ways for a pump to take in water. SUBMERSIBLE or INLINE. submersible pumps are put inside a resevior and suck the water directly from its surroundings. the problem with this is that the pump itself generates heat that is added to your cooling system . the benifit is that you usualy have a silent or near silent pump in this configuration. Inline is much more common . Most of the pumps listed are made to do both jobs but some are inline only.
some examples of pumps people use are :
EHIEM - known for being dependable for many years .
HyDRO - a good pump that is newer than many other brands so it doesnt have have as much support by the people because its relitivly new on the water cooling scene .
Danner MAG - another good pump .
IWAKI - these are very expencive but they are top of the line . Most people will not use these because they cost a lot but those that do can tell you that they are the best IWAKI PUMP P/Q CHART!!!
VIA AQUA: An inexpensive, yet dependable pump. Often considered noisy unless you follow the 'quiet your Via Aqua pump' guide http://www.wc101.com/guides/ViaAqua/

you may ask IS THIS PUMP BETTER THAN X BRAND
the best thing to remember is that Max Head is more important than flow. there is a huge misconception that flow is the best way to measure a pumps value. to illistrate...
imagine you are on a highway in a honda accord doing 120 miles per hour and you hit the brakes . your stopping distance will be roughly 500 yards or less .NOW imagine you are in a 2 trailer big rig doing 120mph . yes going the same speed. if you try and stop it may take you as much as 3000 yards due to the weight and force of the truck right?. well water is the same way except you dont want to stop. max head pressure is like rating how big a vehicle you are driving and flow is like measuring the speed limit of the road. so a big rig pump like an iwaki r20 that travels at only 65mph will have more force than honda accord like hydro l20 pump traveling at 85mph.
sure hope you understand all that lol .
for more information on pumps look at the The P/Q Thread listed here:
http://forums.procooling.com/vbb/sh...=&threadid=5068

http://phaestus.procooling.com/pqcurves.jpg

All those pumps are available at pet stores. Generally cheaper than the MCP's and about the same as the c-systems. Submerged in a res is the best way to go if you get an aquarium pump IMHO.

Alacritan · Oct 18, 2004

I've got a Mag 3 and if you replace the oring with silicone RTV sealant and use nylon fittings instead of brass, it's fine and saves you $40 compared to the MCP650, it's closest competitor. And it still has more head.

Bad ConNecTioN · Oct 18, 2004

Alacritan said:
I've got a Mag 3 and if you replace the oring with silicone RTV sealant and use nylon fittings instead of brass, it's fine and saves you $40 compared to the MCP650, it's closest competitor. And it still has more head.

Doesn't it add more heat to the line?

greenman100 · Oct 18, 2004

Bad ConNecTioN said:
Doesn't it add more heat to the line?

about 35w

average heatercore with decent fans has a C/W of .05

1.75 increase over no pump at all, or a 1C increase over a via aqua

Alacritan · Oct 19, 2004

That 35W doesn't get converted to heat directly. I don't know where everyone gets that idea. The majority of it is expended as kinetic energy and pumps aren't 100% efficient anyway. So of that 35W not all of it even gets applied towards pump movement. And where did you get that number for the heatercore or the temperature even? There's no average heatercore and temperature increase would vary based upon the fans used. I don't even think BillA could whip out a number like that.

greenman100 · Oct 19, 2004

Alacritan said:
That 35W doesn't get converted to heat directly. I don't know where everyone gets that idea. The majority of it is expended as kinetic energy and pumps aren't 100% efficient anyway. So of that 35W not all of it even gets applied towards pump movement. And where did you get that number for the heatercore or the temperature even? There's no average heatercore and temperature increase would vary based upon the fans used. I don't even think BillA could whip out a number like that.

please stop posting what you don't know about

kinetic energy?

Considering watts fed into pump is always increasing while the pump is on

KE=1/2mv^2

if KE is increasing, mass of water is constant, then velocity keeps increasing?

so my water is going to eventually reach the speed of sound, then the speed of light?

hi, my name is friction, and I don't let that happen. Friction turns that extra KE back into heat, including fristion of the water hitting other water molecules and barriers such as metal and plastic.

As for the C/W rating: Speaking of BillA, his tests show a thermochill 120.1 at ~.045 C/W with a medium speed fan, and ~.025 C/W with a high speed fan. He also found a C/W of ~.04 with a medium speed fan and ~.02 with a high speed fan for the thermochill 120.2.

http://www.overclockers.com/articles778/

Graystar · Oct 19, 2004

Alacritan said:
That 35W doesn't get converted to heat directly.

Well actually it does, but as you say, it doesn't all end up in the water.

The heat in the water is equal to the Brake Horse Power (BHP) of the pump + whatever heat comes through where water contacts the heated housing. Efficiency of 120vac pumps is terrible. Iwaki pumps manage 40%. Using that value, you can expect a Mag 3 to add 14 watts worth of heat to the water, plus the leakage through the housing. Unfortunately I have no idea what that quantity is.

stryder2720 · Oct 19, 2004

I had a Maxi-Jet 1200 in my 1st watercooled setup which worked very well. Now its in my fish tank

ghettocomp · Oct 19, 2004

I just use a plain ol' 270 Gph submersible Little Giant Pond/Fountain pump.

The way I see it, it is made to be submersed, and since it is made for fish ponds and fountains, it will probably pump garbage and not really break a sweat.
To me, That pump in an underground junction box, makes the best pump/rez on the cheap! (less than $20 for me) :attn:

been using it continuously for almost a year with no problems.

Bad ConNecTioN · Oct 19, 2004

Yes, I am starting to see the logic of submersible pumps. The extra heat they add would be neglegible at best.

Graystar · Oct 19, 2004

Bad ConNecTioN said:
Yes, I am starting to see the logic of submersible pumps. The extra heat they add would be neglegible at best.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Due do the poor efficiency of AC mag pumps, as best I can tell, submersing probably doubles the heat you get from the pump. So instead of getting 17-18 watts from a Mag 3, you'll get 35 watts heating the water. That increase represents a significant percentage of the entire wattage that's heating the water.

ls7corvete · Oct 19, 2004

The best reason for submersed pumps is the reduction of noise. If you have to run your fans 1% faster to get rid of almost all pump noise, I think your a bit better off

greenman100 · Oct 19, 2004

Graystar said:
Well actually it does, but as you say, it doesn't all end up in the water.

The heat in the water is equal to the Brake Horse Power (BHP) of the pump + whatever heat comes through where water contacts the heated housing. Efficiency of 120vac pumps is terrible. Iwaki pumps manage 40%. Using that value, you can expect a Mag 3 to add 14 watts worth of heat to the water, plus the leakage through the housing. Unfortunately I have no idea what that quantity is.

agrreed, but the Iwakis have a more open shaft design whereas the iagnet in the magdrive pump is waercooled, and so is the core of the motor, not the case with an Iwaki

*edit* I was wrong

Graystar · Oct 19, 2004

greenman100 said:
agrreed, but the Iwakis have a more open shaft design whereas the iagnet in the magdrive pump is waercooled, and so is the core of the motor, not the case with an Iwaki

This is from the Iwaki MD/WMD Series product description...

Unique internal cooling circuit - Hollow rotating spindle creates a positive, forced cooling path, lubricating bearing surfaces and actively purging gases & heat. Fluid is not trapped in the rear casing but seeks a low pressure escape to the eye of the impeller through the hollow spindle. Frictional heat is conducted out of the rotating element. Any gas/air is sucked from the rear casing and expelled in a perpetual cycle.

So MD/WMDs *are* designed to be cooled with the liquid. However, I don’t agree that Danner Mag pumps are designed to be cooled by the liquid. There’s nothing about the impeller design that appear to drive water in and out of the shaft core.

Personally, I think that most aquarium type mag pumps don’t require active cooling. There are no moving parts to get damaged by heat, and the motor design should be able to withstand an operating temperature of at least 150c. Air cooling should be good enough. Athough it would be nice to hear from an engineer that designs these...

greenman100 · Oct 19, 2004

you're right graystar

Best Pump from Pet Store

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