View Full Version : Longhorn!!!
JacK9579
10-26-04, 12:53 AM
I recently tried out an old alpha of longorn i though it was pretty damn cool, it was everything that i wanted xp to be, but buggy and laggy as hell, if they fix that and im sure they will it is going to be xp on crack, what do you all think?
Audioaficionado
10-26-04, 01:45 AM
Nice eye candy but laced with Trusted Computing aka Palladium Technology
Bad news but it's most likely going to be our future unless they can deal with software piracy. Longhorn will be built around it. Linux may eventually be forced into it by international law as well.
TazExtreme3
10-26-04, 03:22 AM
A great way for Microsoft to deal with piracy would be to reduce their prices on their software, But that's just my opinion. I also have a copy of the latest build of longhorn alpha, It looks like it'll be a sweet OS once it's finished.
dguy6789
10-26-04, 09:26 AM
MS has stated the the jump from XP to Longhorn will be far greater then the jump from ME to XP.
Cant wait :)
asusradeon
10-26-04, 09:55 AM
wer can i download a copy of alpha longhorn ?
I.M.O.G.
10-26-04, 10:58 AM
Bah, I'll hang onto w2k and xp for quite some time... Don't see what longhorn could offer that I need, and it'll be sad when I move on from these OS's. Hopefully when that becomes necessary, I'll be moving to Linux, and no longer be dependent on M$ products.
AEsnowboarding
10-26-04, 11:14 AM
Longhorn should be a sweet OS. Hopefully we wont need a monster of a machine to run it. I plan on keeping my rig for a long while. Maybe MS will make this OS cheaper, although I highly doubt it.
Audioaficionado
10-26-04, 07:34 PM
If I try Longhorn, it will be on a standalone machine not connected to my LAN and on a removable hard drive by itself.
I'm waiting on OSX for PCs :p
Right now XP is finally getting the bugs worked out and is becoming a decent OS. I'll stay with it for a long time.
Xenocide
10-26-04, 07:37 PM
wer can i download a copy of alpha longhorn ?
you should not be even using it unless you got a real license from microsft
and this is not for discussion on the forums
TazExtreme3
10-26-04, 09:17 PM
wer can i download a copy of alpha longhorn ?
Nowhere, you have to get it from Microsoft so you have to have connections, like me
Chris_F
10-26-04, 11:14 PM
Bad news but it's most likely going to be our future
Trust me. It'll be a cold day in hell before I allowed that. ;)
TazExtreme3
10-27-04, 08:58 PM
EDITED By Forum Moderator RED Hot MAchine : NO posting of Warez. Please reread the forum rules.
I can't wait to get a final copy of it. I remember when I first installed Windows XP... dang, Microsoft is great. :D
Audioaficionado
10-27-04, 11:46 PM
you should not be even using it unless you got a real license from microsft
and this is not for discussion on the forumsIf there was a valid Microsoft link, that would be OK. But not any link or mention of a warez source.
ewalk123
10-27-04, 11:51 PM
I'm waiting on OSX for PCs :p
Well, we can dream i guess. Its a nice thought.
evowatercooling
10-28-04, 01:20 PM
you should not be even using it unless you got a real license from microsft
and this is not for discussion on the forums
Someone must have got up on the wrong side of the bed today.
I am sure that the person thought that Alpha Longhorn was just like every other beta or demo versions of software, FREE.
Perhaps, but these things tend to swing out of control much more quickly than they can be taken care of, so it's best to sometimes just nip it below the apical meristem, even if that's not where it was going.
OS X won't be on the PC ANY time soon . . . Not until Apple the hardware company is losing money. Longhorn should be an interesting release, but I hardly expect it to be the massive change it's hyped to be . . . And if it is, it's going to be a real dog on current hardware. That's quite a disincentive to install it. So much overhead will do nothing for people like us who seek performance. But by the time Microsoft gets it out the door, we should see some other cool technology.
Z
Audioaficionado
10-29-04, 12:34 AM
OSX is based on FreeBSD so someone will port a close fascimilie in the near future. It may not be Darwin but it will happen.
whooping_a_panda
10-29-04, 02:01 AM
Darwin is the BSD base of OSX, and it can already run on an x86 platform. Aqua, the desktop environment (gnome/KDE/Explorer), is what cant be ported as even though Darwin is released as open source Apple still holds the copyrights to Aqua, so we will not see an exact replica of OSX on an x86 platform anytime soon.
Just think of the headache finding apps for OSX on x86 anyway. OSX apps wouldnt work as theyve been compiled for PPC architecture and windows apps wouldnt work as well they would be windows apps. OSX on x86 would be limited to open source linux/BSD apps.
Capt Fiero
10-29-04, 12:01 PM
Ok so we are not supose to talk about longhorn here, even though this is my favorite place to come when I need some computer geek wisdom from all the old timers on here.
Where would you guys recomend as a place for longhorn resources. I have googled longhorn 4074 and found tons of sights but what would you guys recomend. I am especially looking for a list of drivers and apps that are known to work with longhorn. My chipset drivers are fubar, even when ran in compatability, Messenger 7.0 (direct from microsoft) wont run.
Any suggestions on where to go.
P.S. I have found that running a 3+ghz cpu, with a gig of ram and then dissabling the buggiest parts of longhorn make it an almost usable OS. The new IE is totally Top Notch.
I'm not really familiar with any sites that cover Longhorn in that way, but I'd imagine that a lot of them aren't going to be "legitimate," so be careful with linkage if you find anything.
What is OS X without Aqua and all of the programs that come with it? OS X, the whole package, won't be available on the PC until Apple releases it, and that won't happen until Apple can't hack it in the hardware market. Until then, PearPC is the closest you're going to get.
What are the advantages to running Darwin on your PC? Does it have any of the special Apple bits in it at all, or is it basically FreeBSD? If so, what's the point?
Z
MadSkillzMan
10-29-04, 05:20 PM
yea if darwin can run some killer version of some video ediitng apps im there...we already had this discussion in alt OS. you do have mac osx, it is open darwin, since u cannot run any mac progs on it cuz of the CPU differences
Where are they at on LH? last i heard was v 4080
Saw the thread so, I will throw in my two cents worth.
I have the 4074 version of longhorn....on a DVD disc no less.
To make a long story longer, I really do not see anything within the O/S
that makes me say "Boy, I've got to have this! XP is lame." It will need to have something really extraordinary for me change from my present O/S.
I think the days of a forced OS are from now. The goverment would have a hell of a time checking to see if every system is updated from say Gentoo 2004.3 or Win XP SP2 to something linked to a mainframe. Also, those mainframes would have to be monsterious, I mean, one attack on them and god knows what kinda trouble happens to all Palladium's in the world. I think Joe 6-pack will be forced to buy everything, no more sharing CD's with his buds, but the true computer users will do as they always have done - adapt. If it gets really bad, Point to Point connections might become popular again (IE phone-connection to <insert buddies phone number here>).
MadSkillzMan
10-30-04, 01:01 AM
Bad news but it's most likely going to be our future unless they can deal with software piracy. Longhorn will be built around it. Linux may eventually be forced into it by international law as well.
uhh..care to elaborate on that about linux? i havent read up on this in a LONG time
johan851
10-30-04, 02:43 AM
Ok so we are not supose to talk about longhorn here, even though this is my favorite place to come when I need some computer geek wisdom from all the old timers on here.
Where would you guys recomend as a place for longhorn resources. I have googled longhorn 4074 and found tons of sights but what would you guys recomend. I am especially looking for a list of drivers and apps that are known to work with longhorn. My chipset drivers are fubar, even when ran in compatability, Messenger 7.0 (direct from microsoft) wont run.
Any suggestions on where to go.
P.S. I have found that running a 3+ghz cpu, with a gig of ram and then dissabling the buggiest parts of longhorn make it an almost usable OS. The new IE is totally Top Notch.
It's probably mostly due to it being an alpha OS. It's just plain going to be buggy.
Audioaficionado
10-30-04, 11:02 AM
uhh..care to elaborate on that about linux? i havent read up on this in a LONG time
In a worst case senario: Piracy/virus attacks/security becomes a huge international political issue (most likely fueled by expensive lobbying efforts by software giants) and the US, EU and maybe even China will decide to make TC mandatory for all new software and hardware. Well AMD, Intel and IBM already are in position to enable the hardware bits on their newer chips and Microsoft has Palladium Technology. Linux would be forced by rule of law to get with the program. After a period of time legacy systems will either upgrade or be isolated by not being able to access the internet. The internet would have TC sniffers much like browser sniffers that would restrict or deny access by non complying systems.
This is a worst case senario, not necessarily the actual future.
I think microsoft is making its monopoly again. They want to control the home user. Well if it gets that bad then i say screw em beacouse its not worth being pushed around by people that take your money and dont care. But that international law is a bad bad thing, Linux is free, it shouldnt have tracking software, isnt that allmost like malware or spyware...
MadSkillzMan
10-30-04, 03:03 PM
wow audioaficionado..that would completely SUCK! i mean ok the virus thing..but..the whole no internet thing would be terrible...
I say, let them try all they want....u know darn well SOMEONE will figure it out. nothing goes un hacked/cracked/patched etc...nothing.
Audioaficionado
10-30-04, 04:27 PM
Time will tell...
The savvy among us will figure out ways to work around this but I hope it doesn't ever get that bad or I'll just have to find a new hobby where Big Brother isn't watching.
MadSkillzMan
10-30-04, 05:08 PM
its impossible , big brother gets involved with EVERYTHING....jeez my hobby of DIY projectors and Spudguns mite get alot more interesting if i cant sit at the comp w.o paying a buttload of cash.
Despite the fact that I think TC would create a whole lot of other issues, I hardly think that the simple act of checking to see if one's computer is in compliance with a perfectly reasonable law (on principle, anyway . . . It's reasonable to say you can't download things you don't own, but it pretty much stops there) is a big deal, as long as that checking ends at that point. I hope that made sense without being too redundant.
Think about it . . . The government makes you get an E-check, right? Might be a bit of an inconvenience, but I hardly think it is going beyond their power to do so. As long as Palladium and the like don't go beyond that simple check, I think it's a perfectly legitimate thing to do. If it were to start snooping around people's files and calling home, THAT would be wrong . . . A complete invasion of one's privacy. But to put a checkpoint at the gates of the sewer that is the Internet and say "show us you're not coming here with the intent/ability to break the law" seems okay in my book, just like stopping you and asking you if you have a gun and intend to do bad with it. You should only have a problem with it if you WANT to do such things. Whether it will stop at thsy point or not is the main question, and probably what most people are actually worried about.
/tangent
What are some of those "killer features" that are supposed to be coming down the pike with Longhorn? Outside of the new file system, I haven't seen or heard anything that even makes me THINK about switching. The fact that it requires such uber processing power is a heck of a turnoff, and a simple change in the GUI would hopefully not be enough to get people to buy it. I guess that 98 to XP was a lot of the same transition stuff as OS 9 to OS X, but a lot of people are expecting this to be a major release. As far as I can tell, it's at best an incremental update like Panther was to OS X, with a rather large underlying change in the file system. I'd love to hear I'm wrong, but I'd love to hear that people can kill the overhead of some of the bloat that it's bringing with it. It should come with a 98/2000 mode, if you ask me.
Z
Audioaficionado
10-30-04, 08:52 PM
Microsoft nuked that newer file system as it was too much on their plate. Maybe it will come at a later date but it looks like it will be good ol' NTFS. Linux is getting the ability to write to NTFS partitions and that means I can use NTFS on all my partitions once all the bugs get worked out. FAT32 ain't bad but I like NTFS better for windows. I keep soem FAT32 partitions now so I can write files in Linux that XP can get to later. I'll be glad when I can ditch FAT32 altogether.
BTW TC will be much more invasive than what you stated. It will be on/in your software and hardware and it has all kinds of implications concerning your everyday activities. I hope it doesn't go the extreme route as I don't want it on my systems and if I don't, I might not get past the internet gateway.
You can read all sorts of info on TC on the net. As always you can't aways trust what you read as fact until you find enough evidence adding up to prove the facts. The Gov could be the one who limits TC as they use the internet and I assure you they won't knowingly allow anything that might compromise their security or limit their work.
TheGreySpectre
10-30-04, 09:17 PM
What is TC and Palladium?
Audioaficionado
10-30-04, 09:25 PM
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=Trusted+computing
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=Palladium+Technology
I don't have the time to do any reading about it tonight, but I will when I find some . . . I'll admit I know squat about TC, and even less about specific implementations of it, but I'm not inclinded to be offended until my privacy is at stake. Is it? I don't know, but I imagine somebody might be able to tell me. The major problem with this technology, as I see it, is that it has the ABILITY to call home about a lot of stuff and be worse than any national ID/illegal search and siezure ever would be. But the question is, how will they use it? My car can go 150, but that doesn't mean I do it . . . (it really can't . . . it stuggles past 55). Same deal here.
If Microsoft took out the file system, what major improvement still exists? They can change the color of the task bar all they want, but until I get more functionality for my 120-190 bucks, I ain't buyin' nothin'.
Z
TheGreySpectre
10-31-04, 11:36 AM
wow TC sucks, I like open office and other nonMS products
Audioaficionado
10-31-04, 02:20 PM
Without the new (better?) file system, I don't see the point either Zach. You can get all the third party eye candy you want for XP and it looks great without that load of TC to nag you or spy on you.
How is it going to work without a file system though? What will there be? Any idea how it will work?
jbloudg20
10-31-04, 02:36 PM
It looks like it will be using NTFS, so it will have a file system.
Well i heard itwasnt going to be using ntfs......
ryanmartini
10-31-04, 02:47 PM
Nowhere, you have to get it from Microsoft so you have to have connections, like me
ya i got da awesome hookUp y0! its a cable modem @ 3.2 mbps and i have mirc! that with a web browser @ ircspy.com,
best damn connections anywhere ^_^
im looking heavily into linux, game companies are starting to make games for linux, and more people are interested in developing it. if i can learn enough about it, windows go BYE BYE
Audioaficionado
10-31-04, 06:53 PM
Well i heard itwasnt going to be using ntfs......Since Microsoft isn't going to deliver the promised new FS, what FS are they going to use? FAT, FAT32 or NTFS are what they have now. I don't think they'd ever use any Linux or Unix FS.
ryanmartini: suggesting a means by which to get warez/etc. is an absolute no-no. Edit your post, please.
I see nothing inherently wrong with NTFS, and I really don't see what adding a new filesystem is going to do for the average user.
Z
MadSkillzMan
10-31-04, 08:56 PM
haha yea dude..thats NOT cool.
I heard it was using some FS that could allocate up to and over 1tb of data on a single drive.
the new file system is meant to allow faster searches throughout the HD, so we can find those long lost files a bit easier ^_^
I hope they manage to cut down on services, I boot up my main machine at home it uses near 700 mb of ram, good think I got a gb =/
I'm sorry, but let's be honest . . . 1tb of storage is, while pretty feasible today, unlikely in the near future for most people, and entirely unnecessary for almost all of us. And on a single drive, we've still got a bit of time before that even becomes possible. Besides, how much would a 1tb drive cost? A 400GB drive right now costs more than $1/GB, while you can easily get under $0.50/GB by using smaller drives (between 120-250GB). If THAT'S all that the new FS had going for it, thanks, but no thanks.
I thought it was going to allow all kinds of whiz-bang search/storage options never before available, capitalizing on XML or something. As far as I understood it, it was supposed to allow you to store something anywhere on the hard drive and still be able to find it, but it sounded better than that. But either way, even most computer 'tards can figure out where they saved their stuff, even if they have to open MS Word to get to them. I guess this will take the burden off of them slightly, but I should hope that people can learn to operate a computer better than that . . . I mean . . . "My Documents" . . . What the heck else would it be? MAN! Unless the new FS somehow sped up the whole process of file retrieval and access times and latencies and stuff, I don't really care. The hard drive is a pretty big bottleneck in video encoding once the processor/RAM/throughput 'necks are removed. If it fixes that, I'll consider it strongly.
Z
PCGUY112887
11-01-04, 10:48 PM
I think microsoft is making its monopoly again.
When did they ever stop?
I believe that longhorn will be... so amazing it's not funny. (as far as filesystem, user interface, security and such) I don't think there will be an upgrade from XP... probally only be 1 or 2 versions for everyone. What the should really do is have an option when your setting up the computer "Novice" "Intermediate" "Advanced". Whatever you pick is how the OS will treat you... it will allow M$ to told their hand... or just give us total control. But doubt that will happen :-p
Maybe this time M$ will pay attention to how it will effect everyone... they tryed to make SP2 perfect but failed. It works awesome 99.9% of the time on a clean system... but people with junked up systems usually are the ones having problems with it.
Also I have always had the dream that M$ would realise that insted of trying to make their own firewall and virus protection and such that they should just work out aggrements with companies like ZoneLabs and such to make firewalls and such for them built into windows.... then they could work on getting other things done and not makeing a crappy firewall.
Think... Longhorn... built in firewall made by respected company (updates for it controled by company).. built in virus and spyware protection via respected company... built in stripped down version of Photoshop (like a slightelly stripped version of Photoshop Elements)... all for like $200 full edition. Allthough something like that would never happen and I would end up installing better stuff anyways :p
It's called OS X . . . Seriously, though, I think that's the only way that Microsoft can compete with Apple in the product to dollar ratio . . . Apple has long provided a lot of functionality for your dollar. Even if you don't like iPhoto or iDVD, they're much more functional that what exists in XP, and XP doesn't have a native DVD burning app. And I'd be hard pressed to believe anyone that said that Windows Movie maker is better than iMovie . . . I used WMM to make my avatar, believe it or not. It's not bueno.
Z
It's called OS X . . . Seriously, though, I think that's the only way that Microsoft can compete with Apple in the product to dollar ratio . . . Apple has long provided a lot of functionality for your dollar. Even if you don't like iPhoto or iDVD, they're much more functional that what exists in XP, and XP doesn't have a native DVD burning app. And I'd be hard pressed to believe anyone that said that Windows Movie maker is better than iMovie . . . I used WMM to make my avatar, believe it or not. It's not bueno.
Z
except for the whole hafta buy from apple 'n can't build it yourself=ultimate monopoly bit they got goin :rolleyes:
'n lets not get started on the new os every year bit
CrystalMethod
11-02-04, 12:42 AM
Nowhere, you have to get it from Microsoft so you have to have connections, like me
You mean the death green CD's they constantly try to push at every conference in existance? I took the Windows.net Enterprise Server Alpha, a while back. Kinda niffty, but it's only good for 1 year. I passed on the Longhorn Alpha, though. I don't have the time to play with it, and they'll offer another, more up to date version at the next conference. I might actually pick one up this time, to see how it's support for the Athlon 64's is.
Capt Fiero
11-02-04, 12:54 AM
It's called OS X . . . Seriously, though, I think that's the only way that Microsoft can compete with Apple in the product to dollar ratio . . . Apple has long provided a lot of functionality for your dollar. Even if you don't like iPhoto or iDVD, they're much more functional that what exists in XP, and XP doesn't have a native DVD burning app. And I'd be hard pressed to believe anyone that said that Windows Movie maker is better than iMovie . . . I used WMM to make my avatar, believe it or not. It's not bueno.
Z
I am not arguing with you, but I want to add another dimension to this.
People have brought up Photoshop, and you brought up iDVD and iPhoto.
I know a fair bit about computers, or I wouldn't be on this forum. I had Adobe Photoshop Pro given to me. I installed it thinking how great this mighty powerfull Photo tweaking program is supose to be. Everyone says how great it is. Well I used it for about a day. I uninstalled it and fired up "MS Paint" I can grab images from screenies, out of my clipboard, I can tweak brightness and what not. The average home user does not care about the high end photo stuff nore do they want to deal with such a huge program. Burt Monroy said it best, 95% of the people only use 5% of the features and only 5% of the people use 95% of them. I have tried several Movie editing programs, I keep falling back to Windows Movie Maker 2.0. The reason, they are easy, and provide all the basic functions that you need to import, edit and export video.
About the only 2 programs that I am glad to see MS ramping up finally are Outlook 2K3 and Frontpage 2K3. Finally a built in SPAM filter in outlook that actully works, and Frontpage now can read view and alter almost any type of webpage I want to work on. I cant count the amount of Mail and HTML programs I have tried, but I think MS has done a decent job with Outlook. THe only thing really missing is the damn News Reader, ya it is there, but clicking 10 things to find it is a pain. I still use Express for that.
In short, some people dont want programs with a ton of buttons. They want a program thats fast simple and gets the job done.
Absolute Zero
11-02-04, 01:17 AM
Longhorn was going to be great. Now it's come down to an updated GUI, and that's about it. It's going to be more idiot friendly, which is good (saves a lot of my time fixing others' stuff), but all the ground-breaking and revolutionary stuff that would have made me shell out $200 has been canned. Why, M$. why?? You might have done something good!!
Longhorn was going to be great. ...but all the ground-breaking and revolutionary stuff that would have made me shell out $200 has been canned. Why, M$. why?? You might have done something good!!
AMEN
A great way for Microsoft to deal with piracy would be to reduce their prices on their software, But that's just my opinion. I also have a copy of the latest build of longhorn alpha, It looks like it'll be a sweet OS once it's finished.
For the amount of work that is put into an operating system, I think they charge a fair price.
diddydo75
11-02-04, 08:36 AM
been away for a while so i'll be brief.
i still run win98se, yeah i know behind the times but
do i go get win xp or wait for a 64bit os to appear as i've managed with98 this long why change to xp?
i dont want to get xp. then for MS to lauch another os and stop support for xp
whats your views people
o man, the ram limits of 98se would kill me...
diddydo75
11-02-04, 09:25 AM
thats just one issue!
so do i go xp when i start my new rig....or wait???
god i been away so long, feels like im starting allover again
well if ur gunna choose to wait ya got another year, 2 years to wait.....
diddydo75
11-02-04, 09:40 AM
ok that just made my mind up, cant wait that long. looks like its gonna be xp then....hell i deserve it being with 98 all this time.
Thanks people
another mind at ease ;)
MadSkillzMan
11-02-04, 03:59 PM
i think w. all this heightened security, it will hurt them....people will wanna steal it more JUST to try it out...and if they cant steal it...theyll say screw it..or steal it and get a big disappointment....look at video games, the systems that lose some sales due to modchips and bootleggers end up lasting longer..PS1 is still being sold....u cant replicate a GC CD....but PS2/Xbox u could....i mean jeez look at DC, its STILL around ....
diddydo, u can get a free copy of xp if u complete theyre training corse online a couple times....check over in cyber deals for M$ freebies.
Personally, i think for the general computer population this is where M$ blows it...i was reading months ago, it has different levels of installs based on your hardware called tiers....and like tier 2 is a 800mhz CPU and 128mb of video ram.....and every thing is extremely 3D...etc...first off, we all have junkers >800mhz...some u can clock up to run xp on..i just use 2k on them... i know MANY people who have 500, 600mhz machines w. like 16mb of video ram..and theyre happy with it cuz all they do is typing, email, AIM..etc...so they would hafta upgrade just to get a betterlooking windows? screw that!
Then you have ur dumb people...who will be like "omg omg guyz!!!!11 i gotta get moi nu puterz! dis rulez!"...and will happily shell out the extra $$ for the new hardware and new os..
I wish M$ had other shells...yes i know theres some out there, but like i mean something lightweight like IiceWM or XFCE...i notice my linux install goes so fast w. just that over kde or gnome...and explorer ALWAYS hangs...i think this is where linux is gonna make some advances...apple too...M$ wont last FOREVER...its only a matter of time before some OS takes it out....i mean theres taht...one OS (cant remember the name of it) thats like a win98 clone...FREE and offers FULL compatability up to win98....ReactOS is it?
its nice w. apple..u install...my install takes 40mins on a G3 300mhz...and right out of the box i have iChat, netscape, ..i dont even have to reboot....thats only isntalling off the FIRST CD..ive never bothered with cd 2 or 3....its just setup and ready to go right away....the installer is also sweet..its kind of like knoppix, as it will boot to a aqua desktop...let u even toy around w. ur system b4 u install it...
I actually don't like iPhoto . . . I haven't tried to use it very much, but when I did, I found it pretty feature-less (either that or all of the editing options are hidden). I actually like MS Paint a great deal. But iMovie is certainly better. Photoshop is definitely overkill for most users. While you have to buy the Mac to use it, the OS itself sells for less than Windows XP, and you have to have a PC to get XP as well, so I think that point is moot. Sure it costs more, but you can still install OS X on a teardrop iMac and beige G3s if you want, so I think that's really not a valid argument.
All I meant was that Microsoft doesn't offer a lot of apparent goodies for the price, which is more than OS X. If Longhorn had come out as an incremental update, I think it would be much more attractive. But having waited what, like 4 or 5 years by the time it comes out, it needs to be a completely new product. And from what I can tell, it hardly will break away from XP.
Z
diddydo75
11-04-04, 04:24 AM
thanks madskillz , i'll check it out.
regards
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