Need help on Dual Celeron shopping.

[Vassandra]

Hi all,

I'm new to the forum and this whole overclocking business, have only Soft-CPUed a Celeron 300A before.
Recently I've started converting .avi movies to VCDs, quite fun but it requires alot of CPU force. I need a new computer for this task, but I'm short of cash. The conversion program I'm using is "TMPGenc" and supports multiple CPUs. I raced an AMD Duron 800 against a Dual Celeron 433 using this program and the Dual Celeron beat the Duron 800 by around 35%. So I'm going to go for the Dual solution.

But I'll want to overclock the CPUs to get even more use of them, but for this I'll need some help from you all.


I'm not really into the computer thing, so I'll be asking alot of stupid questions. For starters I've read all posts on the forum regarding Celerons. I've seen alot of different variations in Celerons. There are apparently two main sets of these CPUs, both Celeron and Celeron II. I checked Intel's site regarding "Celeron II" but came up with nothing, I'm guessing this is an unofficial term. Hoping someone can explain the difference. Then I've seen the stepping thingies "cC0" , "cB0" and "cD0", get the feeling cC0 is better suited for overclocking. Then there are some variations regarding some CPUs (only PIII?) called "E" and "EB" , haven't figured this out yet, doesn't seem to apply to Celerons. Then there are "FCPGA" and "FCPGA2". Haven't figured this out either. Thought this was the same as 66/100/133 MHz BUS, but that theory doesn't quite add up. And about the FSB (Front Side Buffer?) I get the impression that this can be altered using some kind of software. But I read on a page that the motherboard, RAM and all PCI and AGP cards can be affected by the alteration of the FSB, causing them to malfunction. Is this true? Would it be possible to get a Celeron running at 133Mhz FSB without any of the other hardware taking damage? Or would that be tweaking the FSB too much?

Most of this is voodoo to me right now and some of you are probably having a good laugh, but I really need to learn this in order to get the most out of my new system.

I don't know which CPU to get due to the above mentioned variations in CPUs.
I've got two stores near me where I can get some discount. Seing how I can't afford a Dual PIII machine and AMD (at least Duron) processors don't go well with the conversion program (hangs), I guess I'm stuck with Celerons as the only option.

Store # 1 has the following to sell me:

CELERON 700 - FCPGA 100MHz

CELERON 800 - FCPGA 100MHz

CELERON 900 - FCPGA 100MHz

Store #2 has only this :
CELERON II 900

Not a lot of information on them, but perhaps you can tell me which one of these CPUs I can expect to get the best overclocking results from.

I'll also be purchasing a new Dual motherboard to go with the CPUs. If anyone has any board to recommend, that would be great.

From my old computer I'll be salvaging the RAM (PC133), a bit sad that the Celerons are just 100MHz... erm... right?
*Sigh* .... I'm SO out of my league here.

I know overclocking isn't an exact science and that results vary, but any help is grately appreciated as I know very little on this matter. Also if someone could tell me what kind of steps are necessary to acheive the best results, i.e. cooling, tweaky-software and such.

Hoping for some help,

/Vassandra

[JaY_III]

If you plan on running a dual CPU system... You will not be able to use the newer celerons. Celeron II's do not support SMP (dual CPU's) So you will have to go with P3's... or spend some good money and get a very pricy dual athlon board.

cBo, cCo, cDo are stepings (or versions) or the CPU. the cDo is the newest version and as a result the best overclocker of the bunch.

THE E CPU's denote Copermine CPU's or FCPGA chips
THE B CPU's denote 133FSB (front side bus)
THE EB , well put the 1st two things tother and you end up with a 133FSB copermine.
And you are correct that EB doesnt apply to celerons... intel has never used this naming system with them. BUT
newer celerons 533A and up are esentially E's made the same way as the current P's (that is good :) )
And celeron 766 and slower run on 66 FSB , 800 and faster run on 100FSB.

FCPGA and FCPGA 2 is the package the CPU comes in.
FCPGA has the die on the top of the CPU exposed (cBo,cCo,cDo)
FCPGA2 has a metal plate covering the die... intels newest CPU stepping(Copermin-T's , tA1) curently P3 only (hard to find and very pricy)

Regardign the FSB questions. It is better to chage it in the BIOS or by jumpers. it can be dont by software, but that is a last resort.
Yes your RAM has to be fast enough for the FSB as that is the speed that ram runs at. And yes it is posible to get a 100MHz CPU running at 133FSB. If you get 133FSb you ont have to worry about your PCI/AGP cards runnig out of spec as 133FSb is an offical speed and the PCI/AGP cards have the correct divider (1/2 for AGP, 1/4 for PCI) at this speed. So hit 133FSB you dont have to worry about anything taking damage.

Its ok not to know this yet... as thier was a time when every person on this forum was in the same shoes as you are now.. it just takes time to learn like anything else.

Like i said before Celerons(533A+) do not work in a dual system..
But if you still want to run a celeron in a single CPU system, 800, 850 or 900 would be the best to buy of a cDo stepping. anything slower than 800 is no good to overclock. Anything faster than 900 is very risky to overclock... may get stuck ata FSB speed that your hadrware will not like (124 ?)

THe PC-133 RAM will be fine to keep.
And it is ok that the 800+ celerons are 100FSb, makes them easier to overclock. Set them to run at 133FSb and your a happy camper :)

And we will get to the correct steps (to overclock) once we know what kind of hardware you will be getting.

Also take not that windows 9X can not use a dual CPU system. So you wll have to use Windows 2K.

hope i got most of your questions... if i missed anything, just ask again.

[stompah]

welcome to the forums vassandra! Nobody will laugh at you here.

Jay I have to disagree slightly with ur choice of best cellies to overclock. I have a 600 that runs a very stable 945 alot of voltage but there are those who do it greater than me with less voltage.

Vassandra you may also want to look at an Athlon system with a DDR MB.

can 2 800mhz cellies beat an athlon 1.4 in performance? you can buy an ECS board for the Athlon with DDR for only $65 and the processsssor for less than $120.

If this is possible this may be the best route for performance vs price.

The cellie system is more likely to be stable due to heat. But if you can deal with it I would go AMD.

My $.02

PS I dont mean to crap as I like my intel system more than my AMD. But $ vs performance AMD wins... definitely not in the multi processor section of computing yet!

GL

[Jon]

Originally posted by stompah
welcome to the forums vassandra! Nobody will laugh at you here.

Jay I have to disagree slightly with ur choice of best cellies to overclock. I have a 600 that runs a very stable 945 alot of voltage but there are those who do it greater than me with less voltage.

Vassandra you may also want to look at an Athlon system with a DDR MB.

can 2 800mhz cellies beat an athlon 1.4 in performance? you can buy an ECS board for the Athlon with DDR for only $65 and the processsssor for less than $120.

If this is possible this may be the best route for performance vs price.

The cellie system is more likely to be stable due to heat. But if you can deal with it I would go AMD.

My $.02

PS I dont mean to crap as I like my intel system more than my AMD. But $ vs performance AMD wins... definitely not in the multi processor section of computing yet!

GL

I welcome you to the forums as well, Cassandra.

You make a good point in saying that a TBird will perform better than a Celeron but Jay's point is that Coppermine Celerons will not run in SMP. Intel did not include this support when designing them and therefore, there is no dual Celeron support.

Tyan is releasing a dual AMD board very soon at about $200 that should make for a very powerful workstation setup. A couple Durons or 1GHz Tbirds set in there would be a very nice budget dually system.

I have 2 dual systems myself and love them.

[Kingslayer]

Everyone that has posted here has given you great, solid information.

The only thing that I will correct, is the 533A celerons. These are the old style Celerons, and can run dual. It's 566 and up that are dual neutered from Intel.

If you want to run 533's in dual your best option is to find someone selling an Abit VP-6 mobo. But, if you want to run Dual PIII's you have a few more options when it comes to motherboards.

[Jon]

There are two types of 533 Celerons though. A PPGA and a FCPGA. I had the FCPGA and it's a Coppermine, it was the first one to become discontinued and are near to impossible to find anymore.

I'd assume have a single P3 1GHz as to two of those old PPGAs in SMP, though.

[Weazel]

Correct me if I'm wrong but will the vp 6 support dual celerons? I though the bp 6 would be the one to buy for that

[stompah]

Originally posted by Jon

but Jay's point is that Coppermine Celerons will not run in SMP. Intel did not include this support when designing them and therefore, there is no dual Celeron support.

yes my mistake....

Tyan is releasing a dual AMD board very soon at about $200 that should make for a very powerful workstation setup. A couple Durons or 1GHz Tbirds set in there would be a very nice budget dually system.


Without having the time to check prices but arent dual AMD boards expensive?

Also somewhere I forget where but there was a comparison stating that the intel dual p3 was close or beat dual AMDs.

[Jon]

Very expensive...about $400+. BUT, there is one coming out in the next couple weeks (may already be out) that is going to enter in at about $200. With the price the Durons and TBirds are right now it would come out to be roughly the same as a low level dual Intel system would.

Tyan is the manufacturer of it and I've already read a review on it. Doesn't look like a great overclocking board but still will have some options for it.

[Jon]

Originally posted by Weazel
Correct me if I'm wrong but will the vp 6 support dual celerons? I though the bp 6 would be the one to buy for that

The older PPGA Celerons, I believe, are supported. The BP6 was popular with the dual Slot 1 Celeron 300A that overclocked so well to 450+.

[Ebola]

Originally posted by stompah
welcome to the forums vassandra! Nobody will laugh at you here.


well there are a couple of mean people like myself who wish to cast the ebonic plague down on half of mandkind. occasionally when the same question comes up 8 times in a week some flaming goes on.

anyways here is an idea for you. buy 2 p3 700e processors and run them at 133 fsb so you have a dual gig machine.

check out pricewatch.com for the best prices anywhere

also look into resellerratings.com before you order from someone you dont know.

[Kingslayer]

BP-6: Dual Socket 370 Celeron, up to 533. (although with modified adapters, a select few have made this board dual PIII compatible.

VP-6: Dual PIII only. The new Coppermine based Celerons will not work in dual on this machine.

[Jon]

Which dual slot 1 board am I thinking of since I've brain-farted my way into thinking the BP6 was it?

I considered putting together a dual 300A system not long ago and thought all along that was the board I was needing.

[Kingslayer]

I dont think Abit made a dual slot one board. Tyan made several, and were popular. The Thunder, Thunderbolt, and the Tiger I believe were Tyan's main Dual Slot one boards.

[Mr B]

Originally posted by Ebola


well there are a couple of mean people like myself who wish to cast the ebonic plague down on half of mandkind. occasionally when the same question comes up 8 times in a week some flaming goes on.

anyways here is an idea for you. buy 2 p3 700e processors and run them at 133 fsb so you have a dual gig machine.

check out pricewatch.com for the best prices anywhere

also look into resellerratings.com before you order from someone you dont know.

Not to nitpick, but the 700E @ 133 FSB is a 933.

The 750E at 133 gets you a gig.

Right church, wrong pew...=)

[Ebola]

Originally posted by Mr B


Right church, wrong pew...=)

but i dont go to church mr b. :D

[stompah]

Originally posted by Mr B


Not to nitpick, but the 700E @ 133 FSB is a 933.

The 750E at 133 gets you a gig.

Right church, wrong pew...=)

sk0013d

besides my p700 is giving me problems running at 133fsb more voltage helped but without extreme cooling I am not gonna bump my voltage anymore than 2.10

[Vassandra]

Thank you Jay, Stompah, Jon, Kingslayer and everyone else that posted.

Thank you so much, your knowledge prevented me from making a terrible mistake where I could've been sitting with a dual motherboard and two newer model Celerons that won't run together.

And thank you for your warm welcome and speedy replies, I was shocked to see 16 replies when I checked my post today.

As I now understand it, only Celeron 533 and lower are SMP compatible. This is great information, sadly I can't get ahold of 533 CPUs as the stores where I shop only hold the Celerons I mentioned earlier. I know that the site that Ebola mentioned show some stores that hold older CPUs, but I'm more or less forced to shop at the stores near me, as I get some discount there and price is of the essence to me.


Today the personel at one of these stores demonstrated a machine that, in their oppinion, would suit me better. It was an AMD Athlon 1000MHz overclocked to 1100. This didn't sound very impressive seing how the AMD Duron 800 I raced against the Dual Celeron 433 was alot slower performing the conversion task between .avi and .mpeg.

Amazingly, well at least to me, this computer was really really fast. It converted a 1h 51m film in 2h 31m, that's 45% faster than the Dual Celeron solution. I couldn't quite see the difference between the AMD Duron 800 and this AMD Athlon 1000. The sales person informed me that the Athlon is a superior CPU compared to the Duron, but didn't go into detail. Some type of internal memory was mentioned. My point is that speed-wise the two AMD CPUs only differ 300MHz, but there is no contest - the Athlon is considerably faster. So this Athlon model must have something up it's sleeve. More importantly, the Athlon did not hang the TMPGenc program like the Duron computers did. I also recently found out that other Duron users are experiencing similar problems with this particular program, so I'm going to avoid the Duron.

With the information you've given me and the store's demo in mind, I'm thinking more about the single-CPU Athlon solution. As some of you've mentioned, AMD does give more power for your money.

But my problems aren't exactly over. I'll still want to overclock this Athlon CPU. So I'll still need some help. By the way, thank you Jay for your kind words...

"And we will get to the correct steps (to overclock) once we know what kind of hardware you will be getting."

..I hope you'll have the endurance to go through these steps with me once I've purchased the hardware.

I read some articles regarding AMD processors and it seems that there are both 200MHz and 266MHz FSB Athlons. That would also mean that there are two different motherboard models I guess. What about RAM? My first thought would be that my old PC133 RAM wouldn't utilize the Athlon's full potential and that some other RAM would be required. Do Athlons also have the stepping thingies? And how much can one overclock these Athlon CPUs? The store had only overclocked 10%. Regarding prices I learned that an Athlon 1400 CPU is going to cost me about the same as two Celerons, so I guess I'd might as well get the big one. Or?

*Sigh* again.... this is very complex.

Fill me in here. What's good and what's bad? How much can I expect to overclock an Athlon 1400? Or is there a better model for overclocking? Also read that Intel CPUs are more stable when overclocked compared to Athlon. Is this generally true or does this only apply to certain models of CPUs? I wouldn't want my overclocked CPU to give me trouble, but perhaps that comes with the territory.

A gloomy thought just hit me. Perhaps none of you people overclock AMD processors? I just realized that this suddenly has become an AMD issue and this is the Intel section. Do you all want me to go to the AMD section for this? I wouldn't want to break any rules.

Do any of you who have answered here check the AMD section as well? I'm getting such good answers from you all and wouldn't want to lose you nice people.



/Vassandra

[Jon]

I have both AMD and Intel as a few of them probably do. We would all be happy to help with whatever you decide on.

:]

[JaY_III]

I think it will be ok to finish up you last batch of questions here.
Then once you get the information you need, start a new post in the AMD section.

The 2 different bus speeds of 266 and 200, they will work on the same motherboard, so you will not have to worry about that. About RAM, you will want to use DDR (Double Data Rate) to use your athlons full potential. You are correct in assuming that SDRAM will not.

Yes athlons have steppings
http://www.athlonoc.com/stepping2.php
read here, you will learn what the average overclock is with each stepping.
If you can affored it a 1400 athlon would be very nice, make many of us drool. But dont look for what speed the CPU is if you can. just look for the stepping (its printed on the CPU die) As the stepping of the CPU will give you an idea far you can overclock that chip.
Once again take a look at the link i gave you. This will help you understand what CPU's to look for and what to hope for (not expect) in terms of overclocking.

I dont know were you read that Intel CPU's are more stable that AMD's when overclocked, as that is just not true. AMD CPU's generate more heat, and as a result need a better heatsink. If you put a poor heastink on any CPU (even non-overclocked) you will often have problems with your CPU being unstable. Oh and i ensure you that AMD CPU's are very stable and very overclockable and we do that here to, so you dont have to worry about that.


Your heatsink that you plan to buy is also a VERY and i stress VERY important. If you plan to overclock you can not put on an OEM heatsink. Or an ORB (but the guys at the computer store will TRY to sell you one)
Do you know what heatsinks are avalibe to you?

It would also be nice if we had a idea of your budget (what you ae willing to spend on CPU, Motherboard, RAM, Heartsink) this will help us know what pice of hardware is right for you.

I recomend this when you move your thred to the AMD section.
post a rely saying you are moving thier and place a link to your new thred in the message. This way will will find it for sure.

[DAppel]

The PC200 and PC266 are DDR ratings, while PC133 is a SDR rating.

DDR (Double Data Rate) has hipotheticaly twice the bandwidth compared to SDR (Single Data Rate).
So DDR memory that run at 100MHz are called PC200, as well as 133MHz ones are called PC266.
DDR is an evolution from SDR, and there is no reason to buy a SDR system anymore.

There are Athlon motherboards that support PC133 mem (SDR), but they just can't give you the same performance as the DDR ones. A DDR system is not that expensive (only a few $s more than an SRD one), so I think you should really consider buying one.
There are also motherboards that support both SDR and DDR memory, but they are not very good. The experience I have is that a pure PC133 system can outperform these "hybrid" solutions.

PC200 and PC266 are just FSB speed specs. It doesn't mean that you need different boards. Any board that supports PC266 will also support PC200 since it works the exact same way, but slower. Even if you buy a PC200 Athlon or Duron, you can still run it as a PC266 one. It's very easy to do that.



Feel free to make questions. You know, not all overclockers hapen to have a real life... All we do is stick around answering questions (when we manage to make our own systems work for a while), so we tend to get really happy when there is something to be answered !

[]'s

[stompah]

Vassandra you are very welcome. For now lets keep the thread alive.

Now in my opinion a stock speed AMD 1.4 will likely beat any speed p3 and maybe p4 (even overclocked).

As for us pc133 memory it can be kept but I believe you may like the benefits of a DDR system. And with memory prices so low I would not use taht as a factor in any computer I build (unless super high-end like server or email checker.. j/k).

Dont bother with 200mhz fsb processors they arent worth the effort.

Also I do not yet have a 1.4 system but I have heard that a 300w power supply will just not cut the mustard. So since you seem not too mind spending $ for speed I will include the cost of a 400w power supply in my thinking.

Ok I will build you a sample system using US prices:

MB: ECS K7S5A (DDR Board) (http://www.ecsusa.com/K7S5A.cfm) for only $65

CPU: 1.4g 266fsb OEM Version Stepping AYHJA for only $114

Mem: Kingston 256MB 32x64 PC-2100 DDR RAM for only $42
You can find other deals but this offers good price and guaranteed quality. I also like Crucial. Some have sworn by Mushkin and others...

Cooling: Golden Gate large HS with good fan. (http://svcompucycle.com/svcgolgat40y.html) (note: both a store and product link ;-) ) for $25

PSU: ENERMAX EG465P-VE 431W (http://www.enermax.com.tw/products/switch-main.htm) not too many peopel like this brand of PSU because of power dips.. I have never used it myself. for $81

everything like case drives I will assume you have those but for a quick overview CD$30, HardDrive $ 130, floppy $10, case without PSU $20+ more dependant on shipping costs, Video card $40+, Sound card $15+

Knowing that you live out of country I tied my hands by using one retailer only (except for the HS/F) to keep shipping costs down. All prices do not include shipping. And all were sourced from Newegg (www.newegg.com). The HS from svcompucycle also reputable but still new.

I cant think of anything else yet give me a few I will post more ;-)

Edit for bad hyperlinks all fixed now!

[Vassandra]

Thank you for your replies.


I’ll continue this in the AMD section as suggested.

Here’s a link to my new post (I hope) :
http://forums.overclockers.ws/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34549
Or find the “Need help with Athlon shopping” post in the AMD section.

Hope on seing you all there. If not, thank you for your time.


/Vassandra