Making the switch soon.. 775 system

[seer33]

Well before christmas time I plan on switching from AMD to Intel...I've always twanted ot try a p4 so now im finally going to. I will be selling mostly everyhting from my current rig ( see sig) keeping only the raptor...I just want to know what you guys think about the parts im planning on getting:

Mobo - Abit AA8XE "fatal1ty"
CPU - Intel LGA775 Pentium 4 550 3.4 GHz (one with EMT64)
Ram - Crucial 240-Pin 1GB DDR2 PC2-4200, Model CT12864AA53E - OEM
Vid Card - x700 pro pci-e (until i can afford x800 xt pe)
Case - Thermaltake VA3000 Dream Tower Black
PSU - OCZ Powerstream 420 watt
Optical Drive - NEC 16X Double Layer DVD±RW Drive, Black, Model ND-3500A
HDD - 74 gig Raptor , Maxtor 250GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive w/ 16mb cache & NCQ technology
Sound Card - Audigy 2 ZS
Heatsink/CPU cooling - xp-120 or xp-90 if they fit they mobo..if not idk
Speakers - Klipsch Promedia 2.1

What do you guys think? Hopefully I can hit 4ghz on air :)

[Aalelan]

I'm still new to this (in an extreme since) but I really love my Corsair Twin2X1024 PC5400 Pro. I have a 550 too but without the EMT64. It will clock out nice from what I have experinced and seen posted in the fourms..

Also before I got my new water blocks in I was able to hit 4.08 with stock cooling and 16x multiplier, Stable..

[deception``]

First of all, it should be said that you will take somewhat of a hit in moving from A64 to Intel. However, I do not wish to cause a rant so I will forego my thoughts here.

In reference to your question: you could spend all of that money an a P4 setup. Better yet, I strongly advise you to consider a hybrid motherboard, such as the DFI 875-T, which will allow you to run a LPA 775 chip WHILE KEEPING THE USE OF YOUR DDR RAM AND AGP VIDEO CARD. Personally, I would not spend so much money on a 925/915 setup, as these boards do in fact possess the infamous overclock lock. Granted, the mutliplier can be adjust in some boards, but you will see better pefromance in a hybrid such as the DFI or the Asus P5P800. So save yourself some money and check out the following motherboards:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-136-148&depa=0

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=13-131-511&depa=0

deception``

[Duke3d87]

I would wait a quarter or two and get the Pentium 4Es with the 2 MB of L2 cache. They should perform alot better plus they will have alot better 64 bit extensions

[batboy]

I see nothing wrong with the setup, although if you are a gamer, you should save up a little more and get the X800 XT right off the bat. This system at 4+ gig will not take a hit in performance compared to the A64. What few gaming benchmarks the A64 squeaks ahead on will not be noticed in real game play. The Intel chipsets are smooth as butter and rock stable.

[deception``]

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2275&p=10

The Athlon 64 will excel in gaming. Nonetheless, it is much more cost effective for him to pair a LPA 775 with an 875/865 motherboard.

deception``

[seer33]

BTW i got this x700 pro pci-e card for free, which is why ill use it till i can get the x800 xt....Plus i want to overclock...wher as i cant even run this a64 @ 210 fsb stabily...reason being you cant run 2 x 512 stick in this mobo...which is ridiculous, so id rather just get rid of it to be honest...im fine with selling the ram and my curent vid card and everything. I think im rdy for DDR2 and pci-e :). The ram im looking to get easily ran @ 686 fsb article found here : http://www.anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.aspx?i=2112&p=8 which is why i figure i can save some money they adn get some good ram without spending 400+

[batboy]

Dude, you are linking to a stock A64 compared to a stock LGA775... this is overclockers.com and I'm talking overclocked systems. I have one of these (green rig in my signature). Post your A64 benchies (on air cooling) and I'll post mine. Oh yeah, that's right... you don't even have an A64.

[deception``]

Dude, you are linking to a stock A64 compared to a stock LGA775... this is overclockers.com and I'm talking overclocked systems. I have one of these (green rig in my signature). Post your A64 benchies (on air cooling) and I'll post mine. Oh yeah, that's right... you don't even have an A64.

Actually, I did have an A64, but that is besides the point. The fact of the matter is that, whether I own the system or not, the performance differences cannot be ignored. There are plenty of reviews, threads, etc. to substantiate my claim. Lastly, let me add that I do not mind further discussing the matter with you, but it is apparent by your demeanor that such a debate would be pointless.

deception``

[deception``]

Plus i want to overclock...wher as i cant even run this a64 @ 210 fsb stabily...reason being you cant run 2 x 512 stick in this mobo...which is ridiculous, so id rather just get rid of it to be honest...im fine with selling the ram and my curent vid card and everything. I think im rdy for DDR2 and pci-e :)

Just because you have not seen luck with your current solution does not mean that you cannot find joy in overclocking elsewhere. For example the DFI UT is in fact the world's best overclocking s754 motherboard, and should pose no problem whatsoever. Furthermore s939 soltuions such as a Winchester and a K8N Neo 2 will also net some good results.

If you are looking to overclock on Intel, let me re-iterate that a hybrid LPA 8xx motherboard will provide the most robust overclocking experience possible, as the 9xx chipsets are hindered to their lack of a PCIe lock.

deception``

[batboy]

Seer, you will love your new system.

[seer33]

Just because you have not seen luck with your current solution does not mean that you cannot find joy in overclocking elsewhere. For example the DFI UT is in fact the world's best overclocking s754 motherboard, and should pose no problem whatsoever. Furthermore s939 soltuions such as a Winchester and a K8N Neo 2 will also net some good results.

If you are looking to overclock on Intel, let me re-iterate that a hybrid LPA 8xx motherboard will provide the most robust overclocking experience possible, as the 9xx chipsets are hindered to their lack of a PCIe lock.

deception``


Ok then, What do you feel would be the absolute best route i could take for a new rig/upgrading?? piece by piece

[Drop-Top]

Dude, you are linking to a stock A64 compared to a stock LGA775... this is overclockers.com and I'm talking overclocked systems. I have one of these (green rig in my signature). Post your A64 benchies (on air cooling) and I'll post mine. Oh yeah, that's right... you don't even have an A64.

I love when Batboy talks smack. ;)

[Lancelot]

Ok then, What do you feel would be the absolute best route i could take for a new rig/upgrading?? piece by piece

SEER; what you listed is really a kick-ass setup. If I had to upgrade now I would also go LGA775, DDR2 and PCI-E. Hell, you can even run XP64bit when it comes out! Don't let yourself get influenced by a single AMDroid...

[Maxvla]

Just because you have not seen luck with your current solution does not mean that you cannot find joy in overclocking elsewhere. For example the DFI UT is in fact the world's best overclocking s754 motherboard, and should pose no problem whatsoever. Furthermore s939 soltuions such as a Winchester and a K8N Neo 2 will also net some good results.

If you are looking to overclock on Intel, let me re-iterate that a hybrid LPA 8xx motherboard will provide the most robust overclocking experience possible, as the 9xx chipsets are hindered to their lack of a PCIe lock.

deception``
4ghz with a 3.4ghz p4 is only 235fsb. any review you'll see with a 925x board from abit will show the fsb at least 250-260 before the pci express fails.

i doubt he'll need more than 260 (4.4ghz).

p4's have something an a64 can't comprehend.. thats multitasking. last night i was burning a dvd on my 3200+ a64 rig (1gb ram stock clocks). i had some music playing. several IE windows open, trillian going and an email client open. if i tried to switch from one task to the other it would take minimum 5-6 seconds which is an eternity if it happens every time you click something.

i've had multiple a64 rigs and multiple p4 rigs. i've never been so slowed down on a p4 rig. i basically had to stop using my computer until the dvdr finished burning.

i'm moving back to p4 as we speak. have fun with your a64 gaming rigs, but don't try to use them for anything else or you'll be waiting... alot.

[seer33]

SEER; what you listed is really a kick-ass setup. If I had to upgrade now I would also go LGA775, DDR2 and PCI-E. Hell, you can even run XP64bit when it comes out! Don't let yourself get influenced by a single AMDroid...


lol i wasnt letting him influence, i was just ciurious what he felt was the best thing to do....just wondering!

[DamienKC]

p4's have something an a64 can't comprehend.. thats multitasking. last night i was burning a dvd on my 3200+ a64 rig (1gb ram stock clocks). i had some music playing. several IE windows open, trillian going and an email client open. if i tried to switch from one task to the other it would take minimum 5-6 seconds which is an eternity if it happens every time you click something.

i've had multiple a64 rigs and multiple p4 rigs. i've never been so slowed down on a p4 rig. i basically had to stop using my computer until the dvdr finished burning.

i'm moving back to p4 as we speak. have fun with your a64 gaming rigs, but don't try to use them for anything else or you'll be waiting... alot.

That's one reason why i'm trying to sell my a64 rig. My intel @ 3.2ghz was way faster in multitasking then this. If i'm encoding a movie I made (usually for other people, like CS) I can forget doing anything else till it's done except maybe be on the internet. With my p4 i could encode a movie, talk on aim, AND play CS and it'd be very minimal difference (it'd skip every now and then, but overall it was smooth).

Maybe I'll wait till around christmas to sell anything and get an LGA775 3.2ghz, i'm sure price will go down by then. What's this EMT64 I'm hearing about? 64 bit prescotts?

[batboy]

Seer, in all fairness, the A64 is a very good CPU and often does have a slight edge in gaming, although it's less obvious when comparing overclocked machines. The AMD fans love to trot out the stock vs. stock comparisons because it makes AMD look better. But, you need to consider the lack of an AMD chipset that is as stable as Intel and other things like Max pointed out.

All that aside, you actually have a decent system. Maybe with a little work you can figure out your bottleneck and get your system running better, so you don't have to change horses, thus saving cash. A good LGA775 system is not cheap... but neither is a good A64 system. I'm not an AMD expert, but maybe your mobo is holding you back?

[batboy]

What's this EMT64 I'm hearing about? 64 bit prescotts?

Yes, 64-bit enabled Prescotts (actually EM64T), although they are very hard to find at the moment.

[deception``]

Perhaps I should clarify some things:

Let me be the first to say that I am not in fact an AMDroid. On the contrary, I have actually owned more Intel systems than AMD, and I make my purchases based on the maximum performance at the greatest price. Furthermore, let me just add that fanboyism of any kind is for fools, as no company is truly "loyal" to a customer. Remember a firm is always seeking to sell the least amount of product at the highest price, whereas a consumer seeks the most product at the least price. So you can see that the two clash on ideology alone. Having said this, I pledge my allegience to no company.

In terms of the intel upgrade, I must admit that he can probably find much better performance in an A64 if he wants to spend cash. However, I stated that I was not interested in starting a huge debate on the matter, so I will focus on Intel. The fact of the matter is this: current Intel's DDR2 and 925/915 chipsets offer little to no performance gains over their Northwood core. Add to that the increasing temperatures of the Prescott and you have yourselves a sour situation. I have NO problem recommending a good P4C system, but DDR2 and PCIe will not net any gains from a good 875 system.

Alas, if the member wants to go LPA 775 then so be it. I strongly advise that you wait on DDR2 and PCIe for both technologies to mature. PCIe lacks a lot of video card options, and DDR2 is plagued with high latencies that diminish its potential (much like RDR-ram). With this in mind, I recommend the DFI 875-T, which will allow you to use all of your current parts until Intel's newest offerings mature. Remember, it's never wise to be the first to jump on new technology, especially when there is no performance gain to be had versus current offerings.

Lastly, need I remind you batboy that it is not wise to judge me based on my signature. The fact of the matter is that I know a lot more about both AMD and Intel systems then you think, so I advise you not to assume so much based only on what little you may find there. Being that you are a senior member I would expect more out of you then to assume so blindly. Nevertheless, I am not here to argue with anybody; rather, my goal is to informed the less-inclined on making the smartest upgrades possible. At the moment, it makes no sense to move to 915/925 when it brings no performance gains from the 865/875 offerings. With this in mind, the hybrid still remains the best option.

deception``

[Maxvla]

the problem with the hybrid 865/875 boards is that they weren't built to handle prescotts nearly as well as a 915/925 board.

i remember having PWM temps in the 70s on my AI7. constant temps like that will kill a motherboard in short order.

[deception``]

the problem with the hybrid 865/875 boards is that they weren't built to handle prescotts nearly as well as a 915/925 board.

i remember having PWM temps in the 70s on my AI7. constant temps like that will kill a motherboard in short order.

Actually both the DFI 875-T and the Asus P5P800 are exceptional boards for a LPA 775 processor. As a matter of fact, it was the P5P motherboard that was used to overclock a P4 560 to 6Ghz on LN2 cooling.

deception``

[batboy]

I agree with Max. If you are going to run a Prescott, there are definitely advantages to the i915/i925 chipsets. First, they are designed for the higher power requirements of the Prescotts. I've had 2 socket 478 Prescotts. I fried one mobo and had to mod the second one with mosfet heatsinks and extra cooling. Even after all of that... with the socket 478 including Swiftech watercooling, my Abit AG8 (i915 chipset LGA775) still beats it with wimpy air cooling.

Heat is manageable with the Prescott, especially now that Thermalright has an adapter for the XP-90 and XP-120. There are several water blocks available for the LGA775 now too. Deception does have a point about the PCI-E vid cards being a little immature at this point in time, but they will soon blossom, so why not have an upgrade path? The DDR2 latencies are not the greatest yet, but they are also improving. Besides, with the massive memory bandwidth of Intel systems, latencies are not as critical as compared to AMD systems. Besides, you can always use BH-5 RAM on an i915 chipset mobo like I have in my "green" rig.

Both Intel and AMD have advantages and disadvantages. You can build either system for about the same price. If you are a hardcore gamer and want an extra couple of FPS at the expense of anything else, then by all means get an A64. If you want a stable system that will do it all and multitask up a storm and encode video fast and still play games pretty decent too, then get an Intel. It's really a matter of preference.

[sevendevilhell]

the AMD will do much better for gaming, but it is common knowledge that the athlon 64 chips don't usually overclock well. some will do ok, but for the most part they aren't good overclockers.

[deception``]

I agree with Max. If you are going to run a Prescott, there are definitely advantages to the i915/i925 chipsets. First, they are designed for the higher power requirements of the Prescotts. I've had 2 socket 478 Prescotts. I fried one mobo and had to mod the second one with mosfet heatsinks and extra cooling. Even after all of that... with the socket 478 including Swiftech watercooling, my Abit AG8 (i915 chipset LGA775) still beats it with wimpy air cooling.

Heat is manageable with the Prescott, especially now that Thermalright has an adapter for the XP-90 and XP-120. There are several water blocks available for the LGA775 now too. Deception does have a point about the PCI-E vid cards being a little immature at this point in time, but they will soon blossom, so why not have an upgrade path? The DDR2 latencies are not the greatest yet, but they are also improving. Besides, with the massive memory bandwidth of Intel systems, latencies are not as critical as compared to AMD systems. Besides, you can always use BH-5 RAM on an i915 chipset mobo like I have in my "green" rig.

Both Intel and AMD have advantages and disadvantages. You can build either system for about the same price. If you are a hardcore gamer and want an extra couple of FPS at the expense of anything else, then by all means get an A64. If you want a stable system that will do it all and multitask up a storm and encode video fast and still play games pretty decent too, then get an Intel. It's really a matter of preference.

I agree with much that was said here. Unlike a fanboy, I have little reason to bash Intel. However, the only intriguing benefit of the 9xx chipsets are the exceptional implementations of matrix RAID as well as support for NCQ (native command queuing). Aside from that, there is nothing new. And Intel has really done their overclockers a disservice by not locking the PCIe bus. Furthermore, there is some speculation that Intel plans to release yet another chipset as a successor to Granstdale/Alderwood as soon as next year.

This Gallatin core CPU that houses the 3.46EE is simply hot. It runs hot and the motherboards that support it will run hot. Components on our Intel motherboard were showing surface temperatures of 150°F. While this is not as bad as some of the Prescott systems we have seen, it is certainly hotter than the AMD systems we are familiar with. If you are an enthusiast, there is simply no way we can suggest that you overclock any of the newer Pentium 4s without using some sort of watercooling. Remember that watercooling is going to greatly reduce air movement across the motherboard. So if you are watercooling, remember to place some fans in order to keep a supply of hopefully cool air moving across the motherboard’s northbridge HSF and MOSFETs.

In terms of heat: Yes it is true that Prescott's flame is somewhat manageable. However, it is still recommended by many that extreme Prescott overclocking only take place using at least water. There have been many reviews, including a new one from Tom's, that suggests that Prescotts still run hotter than some might think. However, I find Tom to be quite biased from time to time, so I will refrain from providing a link. Nonetheless, it is true that a Prescott will require a nice heatsink (such as a Thermalright) coupled with a semi-noisy fan to maintain acceptable temperature levels. It it were up to me, I'd personally pick a Northwood that will probably run on average 10-15c colder than a comparable Prescott. However, this conversation is focused on on LPA 775 so I will not digress from the topic at hand. I will say, however, that the only reason that Intel is pushing the BTX form factor is to help deal with the current heat issues of their newest core. Intel would be wise here to instead mass-produce their wonderful Dothan core to the mainstream, but that is highly improbable as a lot of research and development has gone into the Northwood's closest cousin. Moreover, AMD64's hold a clear advantage over equivalent Prescotts in both temperatures and especially power consumption. Here is a nice graph comparing power consumption, for example:

http://techreport.com/etc/2004q4/90nm-power.gif

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/intel%20pentium%204%20570j_111304101117/5454.png

On DDR2: Yes, the latencies are improving. Despite this fact, it is still pretty ridiculous to pay more for DDR2 over current DDR solutions when it does not offer any gains at the moment. Of course, this could change over time, but this only reinforces my suggestion to wait before adopting the newest technologies.

While we might agree that the Abit Fatal1ty AA8XE is possibly PC gaming hardware without equal among Intel boards, the claim that it is a gaming board without equal is laughable. The execution is impressive, but the choice of gaming platform is not. Frankly, the FX55 and 4000+ on the nForce4 wipe the floor with the Fatal1ty/3.46EE in gaming performance. Abit and Fatal1ty simply started with the wrong gaming platform. We'd love to see what they can do with an nForce4 or ATI RADEON Xpress 200 design, as it would probably be the best gaming rig that you can buy.


Without a doubt, the Intel 1066MHz bus really brings nothing to the table in terms of today’s games. Maybe it will when DDR2 ramps up, but I am not holding my breath. In terms of games, the 1066MHz bus is simply boring. AMD now owns the gaming arena in terms of which CPU company is the gamers' CPU. AMD’s is so far ahead in gaming performance that hardcore gamers looking to upgrade are going to flock to AMD Athlon 64 CPUs as they have already started doing. Couple this with the fact that the new 90nm 939-pin Athlon 64 CPUs are starting to hit shelves at 3000+ and 3200+ ratings that will easily overclock to 3800+ levels, and Intel’s grasp on gamers is going to further slip away.

On Gaming: It goes without question that an A64 will edge out a P4 in gaming, period. Even the P4EE 3.46 cannot hold a candle to some of AMD's less expensive offerings. However, it is worth noting that no AMD can multitask quite as smooth as a P4. Having said this, I might also add that Intel's upcoming dual core processors will not support hyperthreading, so it will be interesting to see how this advantage plays out for Intel in the following months. To put it simply: AMD's are excellent gaming systems and for enthusiasts, and Intel's provide robust multitasking and stability (aside from the P4-diminishing-returns issue). So if you want the best overclocking and gaming experience, think AMD. Period. If you're looking for the max stability and/or encoding/ripping, think Intel. As batboy stated, both cores do in fact possess a number of advantages and disadvantages, and it is ultimately up to you to decide what is in your best interests. If you have any further questions I will be more than happy to clarify.

deception``

[deception``]

the AMD will do much better for gaming, but it is common knowledge that the athlon 64 chips don't usually overclock well. some will do ok, but for the most part they aren't good overclockers.

The newer AMD64 s939 processors using Strained Silicon technology have proven to provide average overclocks past 2.6 Ghz. Unfortunately, the processors are of a very late week (43 or 45 I believe), so it might be some time before we see these appear in the average overclocker's hands. Typically, however, a good s939 90nm processor should be good for at least 2.5-2.6 Ghz, which puts it in a performance ranking of an FX processor.

deception``

[Maxvla]

And Intel has really done their overclockers a disservice by not locking the PCIe bus. Furthermore, there is some speculation that Intel plans to release yet another chipset as a successor to Granstdale/Alderwood as soon as next year.

does AMD have a locked PCIE bus? you make it seem like it should be easy, but for all we know the pcie bus can't be locked.

915/925 has been here for quite a while now. if there is a new chipset next year what is the problem? where's the equality btw? nvidia releases the NF3 150, 6 months later they release the NF3250, 6 months later they release the NF4. you like to harp on Intel shafting their customers, yet you don't see how nvidia is doing it as well, and much worse.

Nonetheless, it is true that a Prescott will require a nice heatsink (such as a Thermalright) coupled with a semi-noisy fan to maintain acceptable temperature levels.
i agree with you on everything in this section except this sentence. combined with a XP120, a near silent 120mm fan should be more than enough for a prescott, even with some overclock.

On DDR2: Yes, the latencies are improving. Despite this fact, it is still pretty ridiculous to pay more for DDR2 over current DDR solutions when it does not offer any gains at the moment. Of course, this could change over time, but this only reinforces my suggestion to wait before adopting the newest technologies.
if you do your research you will find that you don't have to spend a fortune to get high quality overclocking DDR2. the ram i was considering was the Crucial (non ballistix) PC2-4300. this ram has been shown to do 700mhz 3 3 3 with only a slight bump to 1.9v (1.8 stock). those timings are very very good at that speed considering DDR2 667 JEDEC standards are 5 5 5. this ram is on par with any enthusiast DDR1 ram at 130 per 512 stick.

However, it is worth noting that no AMD can multitask quite as smooth as a P4.
this is completely wrong. i stated in my first post in this thread how 'wonderful' my a64 rig was multitasking. others feel the same way about the a64 platform. its not about speed so don't say overclocking will help. its about architecture, simply put, P4's have it and A64s don't.

Having said this, I might also add that Intel's upcoming dual core processors will not support hyperthreading, so it will be interesting to see how this advantage plays out for Intel in the following months.
perhaps you can explain why this is such a critical point that you bolded and underlined it?

a dual core processor is what a hyperthreaded chip tries to be. why would a dual core chip need hyperthreading? i am worried about the feel on these new dual cores from both amd and intel and will most likely end up trying both of them. if i don't like them i may be running my new p4 rig for a very long time. i had a dually XP1700+ rig at 1600mhz and it was trash. slowest piece of crap i've ever had. the dual core with integrated memory controller should help significantly over that AMDXP dually, so i hope it will continue to feel like a P4.

[Duke3d87]

it would be better if dual core chips had HT because just because you have dual cores doesnt make each core more efficient. If each core had ht, each core would be more efficient thus boosting performance more. If each core had HT, you could process four threads at once and you would get better performance then having to process two of them. Since Intel isn’t dropping HT for the Itanium 2 chip, I think they will eventually find some way to incorporate it into their desktop and server dual core chips.

[Maxvla]

it would be better if dual core chips had HT because just because you have dual cores doesnt make each core more efficient. If each core had ht, each core would be more efficient thus boosting performance more. If each core had HT, you could process four threads at once and you would get better performance then having to process two of them. Since Intel isn’t dropping HT for the Itanium 2 chip, I think they will eventually find some way to incorporate it into their desktop and server dual core chips.
i guess two full processors in one isn't efficient enough? ;)

gotta have 'dual'-dual core...

[deception``]

does AMD have a locked PCIE bus? you make it seem like it should be easy, but for all we know the pcie bus can't be locked.

Yes, current AMD PCIe chipsets do in fact possess a working PCIe lock. Intel chose not to lock the bus in an effort to hinder overclocking efforts. Examples of upcoming chipests with a working PCIe lock include the VIA KT890, Nforce 4, and the ATI RSX480.

915/925 has been here for quite a while now. if there is a new chipset next year what is the problem? where's the equality btw? nvidia releases the NF3 150, 6 months later they release the NF3250, 6 months later they release the NF4. you like to harp on Intel shafting their customers, yet you don't see how nvidia is doing it as well, and much worse.

I apologize if I ever gave you the impression that NVIDIA was innocent as this is far from true. Nonetheless, I am simply saying that on the intel side of things, their 9xx series chipsets are quite flawed. In fairness, the NF3 150 was an abysmal chipset which allowed the VIA K8T800 to gain significant marketshare during the early days of the Athlon 64. Furthermore, the NF3 250 and NF4 are pretty much identical with the exception of a couple of features, namely PCIe support. Hence, there is no shaft between the NF3 and NF4.

i agree with you on everything in this section except this sentence. combined with a XP120, a near silent 120mm fan should be more than enough for a prescott, even with some overclock.

Fair enough. Nothing should be said here.

if you do your research you will find that you don't have to spend a fortune to get high quality overclocking DDR2. the ram i was considering was the Crucial (non ballistix) PC2-4300. this ram has been shown to do 700mhz 3 3 3 with only a slight bump to 1.9v (1.8 stock). those timings are very very good at that speed considering DDR2 667 JEDEC standards are 5 5 5. this ram is on par with any enthusiast DDR1 ram at 130 per 512 stick.

My main concern with DDR2 is not that of its price. Rather, the biggest issue I have with the ram is the fact that it offers no bandwidth gains over current DDR solutions. Perhaps this might change when the high latencies come down, but in the mean time this stipulation still applies.


this is completely wrong. i stated in my first post in this thread how 'wonderful' my a64 rig was multitasking. others feel the same way about the a64 platform. its not about speed so don't say overclocking will help. its about architecture, simply put, P4's have it and A64s don't.

I do agree here for the most part. Nonetheless, the P4 will still provide a smoother experience, even if that difference is marginal. Personally, I do not see the big deal with hyperthreading, as I have enjoyed multitasking not only across my A64 platforms but also my K7 solution. To be completely honest, I admit that I added this little tidbit to keep those die-hard Intel fans at bay (those who were quick to assume that I was in fact an AMDroid). Lastly, let me simply add that (as far as I know) I never meant to equate hyperthreading with overclocking.

perhaps you can explain why this is such a critical point that you bolded and underlined it?

a dual core processor is what a hyperthreaded chip tries to be. why would a dual core chip need hyperthreading? i am worried about the feel on these new dual cores from both amd and intel and will most likely end up trying both of them. if i don't like them i may be running my new p4 rig for a very long time. i had a dually XP1700+ rig at 1600mhz and it was trash. slowest piece of crap i've ever had. the dual core with integrated memory controller should help significantly over that AMDXP dually, so i hope it will continue to feel like a P4.

I do understand the logic behind this thought. Obviously, hyperthreading seeks to emulate a sort of dual-processor function amongst Intel's current single-core designs. I simply pointed out this fact that, without hyperthreading, Intel will be losing a very significant and competitive advantage as they move to a dual design. There is much speculation concerning dual core processors from both AMD and Intel, and a discussion on the matter could take forever. I will say, however, that without HT there is little reason to believe that an Intel chip will handle multitasking any better than a comparable AMD. As I said earlier, this in fact a very important and often decisive perk for many consumers that have chosen big blue. Alas, it is common knowledge that competitive advantages are never permanent; only sustainable. With this in mind, I brought up this statement as something to think about and nothing more. I apologize if this did not fit with the overall tone of the thread, but as I stated earlier I feel it an obligation to inform others as much as possible especially when it concerns upgrading.

deception``

[batboy]

The most recent reviews of the brand new i925XE chipset with a PCI-E divider at 266 FSB are hitting up to 300 FSB and in one case, 320 FSB. Sort of makes your argument about the "flawed" PCI-E lock and having no need of super fast DDR2 RAM look a little silly now, huh? What socket 478 mobo with DDR1 RAM is going to hit 320 FSB and DDR640 on air and with no mods?

[seer33]

Wow, i really dont know what I'm going to do....I've got the money to upgrade to the p4 system, but idk maybe i could save some money and test this 3000+ chip out w/ a new mobo...like the DFI UT

[Maxvla]

Yes, current AMD PCIe chipsets do in fact possess a working PCIe lock. Intel chose not to lock the bus in an effort to hinder overclocking efforts. Examples of upcoming chipests with a working PCIe lock include the VIA KT890, Nforce 4, and the ATI RSX480.

very well. you were quite justified in your statement.


I apologize if I ever gave you the impression that NVIDIA was innocent as this is far from true. Nonetheless, I am simply saying that on the intel side of things, their 9xx series chipsets are quite flawed. In fairness, the NF3 150 was an abysmal chipset which allowed the VIA K8T800 to gain significant marketshare during the early days of the Athlon 64. Furthermore, the NF3 250 and NF4 are pretty much identical with the exception of a couple of features, namely PCIe support. Hence, there is no shaft between the NF3 and NF4.

i didn't get the impression you though nvidia was innocent. i just thought it curious that you didn't bring it up when you were ripping intel for doing the same thing.

as far as NF3 250 to NF4 being a shaft.. i think it is. we just recently got REAL nf3 250 enthusiast boards, namely the DFI board, and now a few months from now we'll have to upgrade to the new NF4 if we want to use PCIE. people invest in boards like the DFI and then shortly after its out there is a new chipset on the horizon.

My main concern with DDR2 is not that of its price. Rather, the biggest issue I have with the ram is the fact that it offers no bandwidth gains over current DDR solutions. Perhaps this might change when the high latencies come down, but in the mean time this stipulation still applies.

the thing is though.. with DDR1 we are hitting a barrier we won't be able to pass. how often do you see DDR1 passing 350mhz with even 3 3 3 timings? DDR2 does it with ease. when we get to the higher and higher fsbs DDR1 simply can't keep up. bandwidth is the same at current speeds, but what about when we reach DDR2 1000 and more? DDR1 will be much slower. DDR2 is all about future, and what i've seen in many DDR2 reviews shows we can buy nice DDR2 ram now and not have to upgrade for a very very long time. Anandtech did a review on about 8 different modules. every single one maxed out the motherboard in the review showing all the modules still had a ways to go. DDR2 might not be pretty now, but soon enough everyone will understand how good it really is.

I do agree here for the most part. Nonetheless, the P4 will still provide a smoother experience, even if that difference is marginal. Personally, I do not see the big deal with hyperthreading, as I have enjoyed multitasking not only across my A64 platforms but also my K7 solution. To be completely honest, I admit that I added this little tidbit to keep those die-hard Intel fans at bay (those who were quick to assume that I was in fact an AMDroid). Lastly, let me simply add that (as far as I know) I never meant to equate hyperthreading with overclocking.

i believe you, but have you ever tried burning a dvd and using your a64 rig at the same time? if not, give it a try. i think you are in for a rude awakening.

I do understand the logic behind this thought. Obviously, hyperthreading seeks to emulate a sort of dual-processor function amongst Intel's current single-core designs. I simply pointed out this fact that, without hyperthreading, Intel will be losing a very significant and competitive advantage as they move to a dual design. There is much speculation concerning dual core processors from both AMD and Intel, and a discussion on the matter could take forever. I will say, however, that without HT there is little reason to believe that an Intel chip will handle multitasking any better than a comparable AMD. As I said earlier, this in fact a very important and often decisive perk for many consumers that have chosen big blue. Alas, it is common knowledge that competitive advantages are never permanent; only sustainable. With this in mind, I brought up this statement as something to think about and nothing more. I apologize if this did not fit with the overall tone of the thread, but as I stated earlier I feel it an obligation to inform others as much as possible especially when it concerns upgrading.

no doubt. thats why i said i was worried about the feel of both amd and intel's dual core offerings and why i said i would probably end up trying both. i think its GREAT that we're going to be back to square one again with dual core. both companies should be about equal in performance, with untweaked brand new architectures. if AMD can duplicate the feel of a p4 in dual core i'm all for going AMD. i have no fanboy mindset. i just want what is best for me.

pleasure debating with you :)

[Maxvla]

The most recent reviews of the brand new i925XE chipset with a PCI-E divider at 266 FSB are hitting up to 300 FSB and in one case, 320 FSB. Sort of makes your argument about the "flawed" PCI-E lock and having no need of super fast DDR2 RAM look a little silly now, huh? What socket 478 mobo with DDR1 RAM is going to hit 320 FSB and DDR640 on air and with no mods?
hey now.. no cheap shots :p

great.. here we go with dividers again...

[deception``]

The most recent reviews of the brand new i925XE chipset with a PCI-E divider at 266 FSB are hitting up to 300 FSB and in one case, 320 FSB. Sort of makes your argument about the "flawed" PCI-E lock and having no need of super fast DDR2 RAM look a little silly now, huh? What socket 478 mobo with DDR1 RAM is going to hit 320 FSB and DDR640 on air and with no mods?

Currently the only motherboard to achieve this feat is in fact the new Fatal1ty offering, but in no way is this representative of all 925-based motherboards. Despite this somewhat-respectable feat, the overclocked Intel is still no match against a comparable Athlon 64. As I said, I am not a fanboy. Rather, I am simply trying to offer seer the most powerful upgrade for his money. Lastly, let me simply remind you that the overclock was obtainable using a 1066 bus. In other words, the 266 is not a divider; instead, it is the default fsb of the new P4EE. So the overclock is not as spectacular as you make it seem.

With water cooling or phase-change cooling, the Abit Fatal1ty would likely take this chip further, since heat was becoming a large problem with this Gallatin core CPU at nearly 3.9GHz speed. 323x12 is an outstanding overclock, but this needs to be kept in perspective. The starting point for the 3.46EE is 266, so the reach to 323 is just a 21% overclock of the FSB at the lower multiplier. If we consider the CPU is running at 3876MHz, the overclock is only 12% compared to the rated CPU speed.

deception``

[Maxvla]

Currently the only motherboard to achieve this feat is in fact the new Fatal1ty offering, but in no way is this representative of all 925-based motherboards. Despite this somewhat-respectable feat, the overclocked Intel is still no match against a comparable Athlon 64. As I said, I am not a fanboy. Rather, I am simply trying to offer seer the most powerful upgrade for his money. Lastly, let me simply remind you that the overclock was obtainable using a 1066 bus. In other words, the 266 is not a divider; instead, it is the default fsb of the new P4EE. So the overclock is not as spectacular as you make it seem.



deception``
ahhh but still its 266fsb any way you slice it ;)

[deception``]

as far as NF3 250 to NF4 being a shaft.. i think it is. we just recently got REAL nf3 250 enthusiast boards, namely the DFI board, and now a few months from now we'll have to upgrade to the new NF4 if we want to use PCIE. people invest in boards like the DFI and then shortly after its out there is a new chipset on the horizon.

I understand you thought pattern here. However, let me just say that DFI deliberately releases their motherboards after other companies to ensure that they provide the best overclocking motherboard across every platform. With this in mind, it is not fair to include DFI in this statement, as they will continue this trend across both AMD and Intel platforms.

Lastly, need I remind you that a) support for the NF3 250 will continue for some time and b) The only reason the NF4 is launching so soon is due to the emergence PCIe. Of course, one cannot incorporate PCIe video cards onto an AGP-only motherboard, so this is a necessity. It would be one thing if NVIDIA were simply releasing another AGP-only chipest, but this is not the case here. Rather, the NF3 250 is being revised to address a newer interface.


the thing is though.. with DDR1 we are hitting a barrier we won't be able to pass. how often do you see DDR1 passing 350mhz with even 3 3 3 timings? DDR2 does it with ease. when we get to the higher and higher fsbs DDR1 simply can't keep up. bandwidth is the same at current speeds, but what about when we reach DDR2 1000 and more? DDR1 will be much slower. DDR2 is all about future, and what i've seen in many DDR2 reviews shows we can buy nice DDR2 ram now and not have to upgrade for a very very long time. Anandtech did a review on about 8 different modules. every single one maxed out the motherboard in the review showing all the modules still had a ways to go. DDR2 might not be pretty now, but soon enough everyone will understand how good it really is.

I am not saying that DDR2 will never perform. Rather, I am only re-iterating that it nets no significant gains at the moment compared to current DDR. However, I will say that I am somewhat skeptical of DDR2 as it shares similarities to RDR-ram. Both modules have astonishing bandwidth potential, but are plagued by such high latencies that it dimishes their level of attractiveness. I am sure that you remember how quick RDR-ram was in and out of Intel systems. More importantly, is the fact that AMD never adopted RDR. I think this is the reason that AMD amongst others are reluctant to make the jump to DDR2 at this time. Of course, DDR2 could very well succeed in ways that RDR-ram failed. Nonetheless, I still think that it needs some more time to mature before it is adopted wholeheartedly.

pleasure debating with you :)

Trust me when I say the pleasure is all mine. I never miss an intelligent conversation. Feel free to share your thoughts at any time.

deception``

[deception``]

ahhh but still its 266fsb any way you slice it ;)

The PCIe lock only exists once the fsb is overclocked out of a certain spec. In other words, it's not based on the stock fsb. Rather, it begins to kick in one the total percentage increases. What I am trying to say here is that the overclock is till only a 21% ramp, which is nothing spectacular. I am pretty sure that the board would have begun to show problems if the fsb were overclocked to say...close to 27-30%. Of course, I could be wrong here concerning the 925x motherboards, but typically the PCIe lock is based on the total percentage of the fsb overclock, not the number itself.

deception``

[batboy]

Currently the only motherboard to achieve this feat is in fact the new Fatal1ty offering, but in no way is this representative of all 925-based motherboards.

Actually, the higher O/C was with an Asus i925XE mobo.

[Maxvla]

The PCIe lock only exists once the fsb is overclocked out of a certain spec. In other words, it's not based on the stock fsb. Rather, it begins to kick in one the total percentage increases. What I am trying to say here is that the overclock is till only a 21% ramp, which is nothing spectacular. I am pretty sure that the board would have begun to show problems if the fsb were overclocked to say...close to 27-30%. Of course, I could be wrong here concerning the 925x motherboards, but typically the PCIe lock is based on the total percentage of the fsb overclock, not the number itself.

deception``
ah but you aren't thinking in the right terms. don't think of it in %, but rather the way we used to run via boards with pci dividers. once you get to the new divider it kicks the pci bus down to where we started from.

the 1067 bus chip started out at 266, but what about a 800 bus chip ;)

if the board can hit 266 to engage the next divider we're talking easily 300fsb on a 800 bus chip, not that that would be possible on air, mind you, but its possible with better cooling.

[Duke3d87]

i guess two full processors in one isn't efficient enough? ;)

gotta have 'dual'-dual core...
since the prescott with HT isnt that efficient, without it, it would be worse. Being that HT is basically free and if you are using the NetBurst core, might as use all of it, not having is a great dissapointment. If each core had HT, it might outperform the AMDs in multitasking benchmarks. W/o it, i think its nothing short of a diaster.

[deception``]

Actually, the higher O/C was with an Asus i925XE mobo.

Yes, very true. But the 925XE is only different from the 925 in that it offers support for the 1066 bus.

deception``

[Shuzzy]

lol, you guys have got seer all f'ed up now. ;)

what started out as a very simple thread has now turned into a very complex, informative thread. keep up the good work. :thup:

[Maxvla]

Yes, very true. But the 925XE is only different from the 925 in that it offers support for the 1066 bus.

deception``
which must mean its a new stepping with the capability of higher speeds ;)

[Maxvla]

lol, you guys have got seer all f'ed up now. ;)
all in a day's work ;)

you don't know the half of it. aside from this thread i've been chatting with seer on aim for the last several days and we've been going back and forth on the topic.

what started out as a very simple thread has now turned into a very complex, informative thread. keep up the good work. :thup:
:thup:

[seer33]

lol, you guys have got seer all f'ed up now. ;)

what started out as a very simple thread has now turned into a very complex, informative thread. keep up the good work. :thup:


haha well put, I really like reading these posts though, as ive been out of the loop for about 6 monthes as i had no intention on upgrading this comp until now...so now i have to learn about all the new stuff, which is definitely a good time for me :) Anyways i guess i will just have to keep researching and learning to figure out what i really want to do....how does a winchester amd 64 3500+ overclocked well on air compare to the p4 3.4 550 prescott overclocked on air? I do more mulitasking and browsing then gaming but i enjoy benchmarking and gaming occasionally

[deception``]

which must mean its a new stepping with the capability of higher speeds ;)

Not necessarily. Based on that logic, one could assume that the 915/925 chipsets overclock better than the older 865PE/875 solutions. However, this has proven to be false on a number of occasions. This does not mean that the 925XE couldn't overclock better, only that the said logic supporting such a phenomena is false.

deception``

[deception``]

haha well put, I really like reading these posts though, as ive been out of the loop for about 6 monthes as i had no intention on upgrading this comp until now...so now i have to learn about all the new stuff, which is definitely a good time for me :) Anyways i guess i will just have to keep researching and learning to figure out what i really want to do....how does a winchester amd 64 3500+ overclocked well on air compare to the p4 3.4 550 prescott overclocked on air? I do more mulitasking and browsing then gaming but i enjoy benchmarking and gaming occasionally

The 3000+ Winchester can be found for approximately $150-160, and typically overclock to roughly 2.5-2.6 Ghz. The P4, which is approximately $280 , will hit average speeds of 3.8-3.9 Ghz. Nonetheless, the AMD64 should edge out the P4 in most benchmarks.

deception``

[seer33]

wouldnt the p4 be better for multitasking tho?

[Maxvla]

Not necessarily. Based on that logic, one could assume that the 915/925 chipsets overclock better than the older 865PE/875 solutions. However, this has proven to be false on a number of occasions. This does not mean that the 925XE couldn't overclock better, only that the said logic supporting such a phenomena is false.

deception``
your point is valid, but flawed. 915/925 are vastly different than 865/875 and thus really can't be compared clock for clock.

925XE is nearly identical to 915/925 and thus are directly comparable. intel chose the XE to implement the higher fsb which shows this new stepping is almost assuredly capable of higher clocks.

[deception``]

wouldnt the p4 be better for multitasking tho?

Yes and No. It will offer somewhat of a smoother experience, but the difference has been mitigated thanks to the newer K8 processors. Essentially you have been operating with a very-early AMD64, so it is hard for you to be able to draw clear conclusions based on your current system, as newer processors possess a number of "enhancements."

deception``

[deception``]

your point is valid, but flawed. 915/925 are vastly different than 865/875 and thus really can't be compared clock for clock.

925XE is nearly identical to 915/925 and thus are directly comparable. intel chose the XE to implement the higher fsb which shows this new stepping is almost assuredly capable of higher clocks.

Very well. Let us try a more "interesting" approach. One might assume that the premium 875 chipset would not only perform better but also overclock higher than the more midrange 865PE. However, this is not the case, as the 865 chipsets have been very formidable compared to the more luxurious option.

With this in mind, it easy to see the error in your assumption. I suppose common sense would let us believe that the 925XE would clock higher than the 915/925 simply because it is a more premium chipset. Nonetheless, Intel's own chipests of the previous generation have taught us that this trend is not always realized. Hence, it is hard to draw such a conclusion from the XE.

deception``

[Maxvla]

you are sort of right, but 865PE and 875P were designed to run at the same speed, 800fsb. now if there was a 875XE that did for instance 1066fsb officially and 865PE/875P boards passed it up then you would have your correct erroneous intel chipset pattern.

[deception``]

you are sort of right, but 865PE and 875P were designed to run at the same speed, 800fsb. now if there was a 875XE that did for instance 1066fsb officially and 865PE/875P boards passed it up then you would have your correct erroneous intel chipset pattern.

Agreed, but no such 875XE exists! :bang head Because of this fact, any speculation that the 925XE overclocks any higher is just that; speculation.

deception``

[Maxvla]

Agreed, but no such 875XE exists! :bang head Because of this fact, any speculation that the 925XE overclocks any higher is just that; speculation.

deception``
point taken. i hadn't thought of that.

i will reserve judgement til i know for sure, but all indicators point towards a faster revision.

[Lancelot]

Deception; what you are overlooking is that a i865PE/875P LGA775 board will not support EM64T, a CPU seer33 is planning on getting...

[Maxvla]

Deception; what you are overlooking is that a i865PE/875P LGA775 board will not support EM64T, a CPU seer33 is planning on getting...
another great point i had overlooked :thup:

[DanIdentity]

925XE will overclock better than 915/925X, period.

Part of Intel's overclocking "lock" is that the PCIe bus frequency floats with FSB. Mobo makers have tried to get around this with 915/925X mobos by dividing down the PCIe bus frequency when the FSB is increased in an attempt to keep the PCIe bus frequency close to default. They have managed to get the dividers to work when the FSB is overclocked to about 260 FSB. After that, things start to get messy.

With the 925XE, the chipset needs to support 266 FSB and a 100MHz PCIe bus frequency stock, without any dividers imposed by mobo makers. Several reviews have shown that with 925XE mobos and 800MHz FSB P4's you can achieve higher overclocks than with the 915/925X mobos.

[batboy]

Everyone knows that the Prescotts have to crank higher FSB in order to start shining. Even with my i915 system paired up with a D0 stepping 3.2, I'm hitting 3.9 gig stable on air. The new i925XE with it's 1066 support and new E0 stepping CPUs will really crank, especially the CPUs that will allow you to drop down to the 14X multiplier. Think of the massive memory bandwidth, it's enough to make me drool. Several reviews have indicated 300+ FSB with the new chipsets.

Take the gaming aspect away when comparing overclocked to overclocked and you will find Intel winning a lot of the contests against the A64. I have compared my wimpy air cooled system to several A64 here on the forum and I win as many benchmarks as I lose. My new system will have a XP-120 heatsink, so cooling won't be holding me back like it is now.

As far as gaming, I would think that my 13k in 3Dmark2003 with a non-overclocked vid card will handle any game I throw at it. Who cares if the A64 gets a couple more FPS in a particular game. It's not like you will actually notice it sitting in front of your monitor. Besides, I use my computer for a heck of a lot more than just gaming.

[deception``]

As far as gaming, I would think that my 13k in 3Dmark2003 with a non-overclocked vid card will handle any game I throw at it. Who cares if the A64 gets a couple more FPS in a particular game. It's not like you will actually notice it sitting in front of your monitor. Besides, I use my computer for a heck of a lot more than just gaming.

For the most part, 3D Mark2003 is entirely GPU-dependant. In other woods, these numbers do not vary much when moving from AMD to Intel platforms (or vice versa). A much better representation of game performance would be 3D Mark 2001SE, as it compares overall system performance. It is no secret that the A64 holds the lead in this category. If synthetic benchmarking is not your thing, you can also look at benchmarks of games for real-world performance, in which the A64 will also keep the lead. Unfortunately, 3D Mark 2003 is about as useless as 3D Mark 2005 in terms of showing real-world performance.

deception``

[deception``]

Deception; what you are overlooking is that a i865PE/875P LGA775 board will not support EM64T, a CPU seer33 is planning on getting...

I am well aware of this fact. I chose not to mention EM64 because I doubt that it will bring any noticeable gains to the Intel platform. The sole reason why the A64 excels over current P4's is not its x86-64 capibility; rather, this is largely due to the fact that AMD chose to integrate the memory controller, thereby removing the bandwidth issues once plagued by their 32-bit lineup. The only reason why EM64T is important is the fact that Intel will offer 64-bit technology to all of their processors, including the Celerons. So it will be interesting to see how AMD respons to this seeing that they removed x86-64 from the Sempron lineup. Chances are, the inclusion of EM64T will most likely force AMD to realize that they cannot treat 64-bit as a luxury and consequently begin to include the technology with upcoming Semprons. Simultaneously, this should make AMD's value sector more attractive to the extreme cost-conscious. So you can understand here why EM64T will have a much greater affect on AMD's strategy than it will on Intel's performance.

deception``

[deception``]

925XE will overclock better than 915/925X, period.

Part of Intel's overclocking "lock" is that the PCIe bus frequency floats with FSB. Mobo makers have tried to get around this with 915/925X mobos by dividing down the PCIe bus frequency when the FSB is increased in an attempt to keep the PCIe bus frequency close to default. They have managed to get the dividers to work when the FSB is overclocked to about 260 FSB. After that, things start to get messy.

With the 925XE, the chipset needs to support 266 FSB and a 100MHz PCIe bus frequency stock, without any dividers imposed by mobo makers. Several reviews have shown that with 925XE mobos and 800MHz FSB P4's you can achieve higher overclocks than with the 915/925X mobos.

Maybe so. But even overclocked these overclocked P4's are still nothing to shout about. Despite this fact, I will refrain from further speculation on the 925XE chipset until more motherboards begin to appear aside from the Fatal1ty board.

deception``

[DanIdentity]

For the most part, 3D Mark2003 is entirely GPU-dependant. In other woods, these numbers do not vary much when moving from AMD to Intel platforms (or vice versa). A much better representation of game performance would be 3D Mark 2001SE, as it compares overall system performance. It is no secret that the A64 holds the lead in this category. If synthetic benchmarking is not your thing, you can also look at benchmarks of games for real-world performance, in which the A64 will also keep the lead. Unfortunately, 3D Mark 2003 is about as useless as 3D Mark 2005 in terms of showing real-world performance.

deception``

The reviews that show gaming benchmarks of the A64 "killing" the P4 are usually run at low resolutions, like 640x480. Does anyone actually run games at that resolution with high-end computers? The higher the resolution you play a game, the more dependant on the GPU and less dependant on CPU. This is why all the reviews run their gaming benchmarks at the lowest resolution possible.

If you have a P4 with a high-end video card, your games are not going to be noticebly slower than an A64 system in the real world.

[deception``]

The reviews that show gaming benchmarks of the A64 "killing" the P4 are usually run at low resolutions, like 640x480. Does anyone actually run games at that resolution with high-end computers? The higher the resolution you play a game, the more dependant on the GPU and less dependant on CPU. This is why all the reviews run their gaming benchmarks at the lowest resolution possible.

If you have a P4 with a high-end video card, your games are not going to be noticebly slower than an A64 system in the real world.

In some games the differences are not striking. However, a more significant gap is established in demanding games such as Doom III and UT 2004. I am not trying to imply that the new P4's are horrible processors, but I do want to make it clear that the Athlon 64 holds a clear victory in gaming.

In terms of low-resolution benchmarks: you just answered your own question. Some reviewers (not all, might I add) run games in 640x480 to remove the GPU's effect on the actual benchmarks in an effort to provide data on the processors role. With this in mind, there is nothing wrong with removing the GPU out of the equation. However, I will also add that this is not common amongst every reviewer, so you cannot argue that gaming performance is ONLY benchmarked at such low resolutions. There is plenty of other evidence that the AMD will provide a better gaming experience even at resolutions such as the standard 1024x768.

deception``

[DanIdentity]

The intent behind my previous post was to imply that the gaming advantage of the A64 over P4 portrayed by review sites may not be as signifigant as they would like you to believe. When people see the A64 killing the P4 in benchmarks run at 640x480, it is easy to draw conclusions that the A64's lead will be equally large in higher-resolution bechmarks. This is, most of the time, not the case.

However, I am not discounting the fact that the A64, depending on the game and setup, can be the better gaming processor.