Danner Mag 7

This pump is awesome.... The pressure - the power - the touch of diamonds, er DANNER. This thing is such a beast I think I'll be getting at least 3gpm on a WW loop.

700gpm@0'
shutoff at 12.5'
60w

Check the second page of my project in the sig for pics.

How's the noise level?

'Bout the same as my l30I.

Your what?

Hydor L30 I. It makes quite a bit of vibrations for some reason. Both make about the same noise as four 25dba fans at 12v from 2' away in a normal room.

OK, that's a start for me

I'm already planning on building a new WC project. As the wife said "Apparently it wasn't about the cooling...it was about the building.

I'm looking at a different pump, and haven't made up my mind yet.

So...given that this pump is about as loud as a Hydor L30, can anyone compare an L30 to an L20 for me? With the exception of my L20 being AC rather then 12v, I'm really happy with it. I can't hear the pump over my 2 Vantec Stealth 120's when they are running at 7v.

I don't have one, so I can't help you on the sound level, but the Mag 7 is a 120 VAC pump.

I too am going with a beast type pump. Mine's gotta pump water up from the basement radiator, but should still flow nicely with a closed loop and very large tubing.

Yet another semi-noob question.

Sorry about posting this, I know there are loads and loads of posts on basically the same subject spread across all WCing forums. Thats actually the problem. There are loads and loads of contradictory posts. The information in one directly counters the information in another.


My question is regarding pumps, flow rates, and finally real flow rates.

From the forums I have picked up a few things and would like some verification.

1. According to Cathar a pump should use 50watts or less or the pump will actually be adding heat to the system.

2. Actual flow rates through most WCing systems using the Cascade/WW/RBX/TDX generally max out around 1.75 to 3 gallons a minute or 105-300 gallons/hour. This can also drop depending on how restrictive a loop is as well as how many components are in the loop. This is one reason the MCW650 is such a good WCing pump despite having a low overall flow rating- its maximum flow rating is right about the maximum flow one can expect through a standard WCing loop. These limits can be pushed BUT only by very special pumps like the Iwaki with the 27' head....yep...its a beast and its flow rate is still only 180gph.

3. Anytime the pump is put under strain (700gph capable pump pushing 200gph for example) it will generate more heat. In short getting too much pump that is too restricted will actually cause the pump to run hotter than normal.


These are just some of the common suggestions made in many of the threads I have read. Are there any suppositions here that are incorrrect?

If they are basically correct what use is a 700gph pump when for most systems it will max out around 180gph? The two most vaunted pumps in WCing today are the Iwaki MD20RZT and MCW650 both of which have basically 180gph flow rates. Since many people seem to think that using two MCW600s or MCW650s is needed for peak performance can we make a general statement that the maximum needed flow is approximately 200gph and the head needs to be a minimum of 10ft or better for best performance and pump durability?

As you can tell I am somewhat interested in pumps. Its my next 'upgrade'. I have several primary options at this point which are a single MCW650 (which I have been hearing may need a second one to fully harness the cooling ability of my system), a Panworld 40PX which has a much higher flow rate than I think is needed, or an Iwaki MD20/WMD20 which basically has the same problems as the Panworld.

Sorry to pester people, I am not really knocking the AC pumps like the Hydor, Eheim, or Mag-Drive units. I do believe however that in standard WCing setups the higher output versions of the pumps are specacularly inefficient which leads to adding heat to the loop which is not offset by an increased flow rate.

Understand I may be completely wrong. I am not even remotely close to being sure of these ideas hence the post. Its not a post to denigrate anyones choice in pumps. Its only here to help understand why a 180gph pump (Iwaki MD20RZT) seems to so vastly outperform a 700gph (Mag7) pump and by understanding help me with my upgrade decision.

Just as a sidebar I will be adding a GPU block to the system in my sig. I will also be replacing the '86 Chevette core with a '77 B-ville core.

Any input, corrections, etc are appreciated.


***EDIT***

Understand I am not asking for recomendations for my system. I am asking for those long time veterans of the WCing wars to help me form an understanding of how to pick pumps intelligently instead of looking for brute power when many times that brute power comes at a higher expense and less overall cooling performance. I am not after 'get this or that pump', I am wondering what criteria I really should be using when selecting a pump.

Bugsmasher I believe most of what you said is true but the two DC pumps you are talikg about you have the specs and model numbers a lil mixed up.
1. MCP600/AquaXtreme 50Z is rated at 10.5 ft of head and 185 gph max flow and 9 watts (Cathar figures 8 watts of heat added to the system)
2. MCP650/D4 is rated at 10 ft of head and a max flow of 317 gph and 24 watts (Cathar figures 15 watts added to the loop)

I pretty much agree with all you were saying if you were talking about the MCP600 (no such pump as a MCW650) in this statement.

The two most vaunted pumps in WCing today are the Iwaki MD20RZT and MCW650 both of which have basically 180gph flow rates

Click to expand...

Also it depends on how much cooling power you have with the radiators and fans. He was doing the examples of how each pump compared to the others with a HE120.2 rad two moderately powerful (35dBA) fans. If you had lets say a setup of 2 2-302s with 4 150cfm or 190cfm Deltas the added pump heat would make far less difference (even tho the noise would unbearable to most anyone). That setup would favor the more powerful pumps.

He was also saying that 2 of the over volted MCP600s in would pretty much be best even with the more extreme setups but it still comes down to how much rad power you have to make a best fit as far as pumps go.

I personally agree with it all and think all this testing and work he has done with the various pumps is about the most meaningful post done by a single person. I think when he finishes this article it should be made a sticky on all water cooling related forums. We already have a couple good places for water block testing results and this article will give a very good basis for pump selection. All we will really need is some good information on rad and fan combos to make the best choices for our systems without much guess work.

You are correct, I was looking at the numbers for the MCW600. My mistake.

That wasn't noob at all.

1. According to Cathar a pump should use 50watts or less or the pump will actually be adding heat to the system.

2. Actual flow rates through most WCing systems using the Cascade/WW/RBX/TDX generally max out around 1.75 to 3 gallons a minute or 105-300 gallons/hour. This can also drop depending on how restrictive a loop is as well as how many components are in the loop. This is one reason the MCW650 is such a good WCing pump despite having a low overall flow rating- its maximum flow rating is right about the maximum flow one can expect through a standard WCing loop. These limits can be pushed BUT only by very special pumps like the Iwaki with the 27' head....yep...its a beast and its flow rate is still only 180gph.

3. Anytime the pump is put under strain (700gph capable pump pushing 200gph for example) it will generate more heat. In short getting too much pump that is too restricted will actually cause the pump to run hotter than normal

Click to expand...

1)The pump is 60w (I believe - I'm almost 100% on it though) so I'm not too worried about the extra 10w.

2) This is fairly true. Most jet-style blocks eventually max out at flow rates of about 3gpm, my target rate for the WW. Although the 12v pumps are more efficient in design, one still wouldn't get my target flow rate and still have a good pressure. I'm not saying a high flow rate doesn't scale with high pressure, mearly a more powerful pump can pump the same amount of water at a greater pressure. Also, I would have gotten an Iwaki if I could affod/fit one. 125-150 for a pump is too much for this application. Plus, I will have to run a decent amount of tubing for my external box, probably around the range of 5-7' for a single rad/pump/wb loop. A single pass core laying length wise parallel to the case chews up a lot of space.

3) Also true. However remember that not all the heat generated by the pump is dumped into the water. This only happens with submersion pumps. I'm not sure of the exact figure but of the 60 'stock' watts the pump puts out, I'm willing to wager around 25-30 are put into the water. With the restriction maybe 40w? Also keep in mind that as the speed of the liquid increases, heat transfer capabilities (sp?) increase in the block and in the rad. at 3gpm, much more than the standard wc loop which usualy has ~1gpm, a radiator will be more efficient. Now factor in the fact that I am using a 2-342 to cool the loop and you'll see why I'm not worried about the added heat. AND having a fan blow over the pump should it get really hot will help a little too...

Basicly you have to figure when designing a loop is what are you looking for to maxamize what you have. You have to design around the 'target block' (most important block) first. My block excells with pressure + flow. Next concider what other blocks are in your loop and how they are going to effect the pressure/flow required for the 'target block' and what you need to compensate for that. Next you factor in the cooling capacity of your chosen radiator(s).

What I'm trying to say is you have to when the costs with the requirements to get the ideal setup. Sure, the mag 7 is probably overkill. A mag three probably would have worked fine but I feel I'll be able to run it fine and with the extra power it provides, show a noticable difference with it compaired to other pumps. We will see though.

Oh, and I have a second loop. It's a maze4gpu, zchip, jr-120, and Hydor L30I. The flow through it is approximately 1.5gpm, well balanced I feel concidering the zchip is a flow killer.

I dont see you getting close to 3gpm with that pump and a WW. I would guess you will be between 2 and 2.5 at most. I would also guess the the pump will dump 40~45w into your loop.
That pump may have a lot of flow but is still only has roughly 13' of head. I have been looking for the flow curve of the WW but couldnt find it but I would guess it would need roughly a pump with 3gpm @ 4m+ of head to get that and I see the mag7 drops below 3gpm about 9~9.5' and has 120gph @ 10'. I see on ProCooling PH wasnt able to push quite 2.5gpm through the WW with his Hydrothruster which has about 10' more head than the Mag7 even tho I do believe that it is only a 500gph pump the extra head will more than make up for the difference in max flow since 3gpm is only 180 gph

Here is a graph I found on Cathars site thats from a review that BillA did.

pwnt by Pat-

I wasnt being critical of your choice in the least. I know that of the people I have seen posting using the Mag7 they have been extremely satisfied with the results.

That was what brought up my questions. It seemed to me that by 'standard' WCing thought that pump really shouldnt be getting the good reviews by people using them that I have seen.

My feeling is that there is something I am missing when it comes to understanding what makes a 'good' or 'premium' pump. For example take a look at the possible pumps I was looking into. The Panworld has a 13.5 head pump that cranks out 480gph and uses around 45watts. This is an external pump so at least a portion of that 45 watts shouldnt be dropped into the loop. Its also a monster sized pump leading me to believe in its durability (MarineDepot calls it their 'Best' pump as does AquaDirect). Its numbers outperform the suggested MCW650 which has a 10ft head and puts out around 320gph using 24watts. The Panworld is also called 'quiet' by comparision to the Iwaki pumps.

Now what I am trying to figure out is why people seem to prefer the MCW650 for the most part over a pump like the Panworld with its superior stats. There is definitely something I am missing. I dont believe its simply the size that seems to be making the Swiftech offering the 'suggested' pump but I could be wrong.

Assuming the pumps have a fairly smooth flow vs resistance curve then the Panworld would seem to outperform the Swiftech at every step of the curve. *shrug* Every time I start researching this I realize just how little I know about watercooling in regards to facts.

The Panworld runs $115 shipped while the Swiftech runs about $30 less. I think either pump would indeed be a good selection but quite frankly I cant seem to determine any defining reasons to go with either. The Panworld is basically an Iwaki MD20RLT which seems largely ignored in most pump threads for its cousin the monstrous 27ft headed MD20RZT. This also surprises me due to the stats on the nearly half price Iwaki MD20RLT being superior to the most common WCing pumps in use.

Once again I am certainly not telling you the Mag7 was a bad choice. Quite obviously it wasnt since you have had concrete positive results from using it. More than anything it simply has me wondering what real criteria I should be using to judge between the available pumps.

***EDIT***

To add to the confusion is the new Laing offering which has a really nice 15ft head but only a 105gph flow rate which seems to have many people on various water cooling forums quite excited. While I understand the value of head numbers the flow rate seems so small (sub 2gpm maximum) that it would seem to be a bad choice for water cooling. Once again....*shrug*

Hmm, ancient. Yep. I am overzelous. Shall we aim for 2gpm now? During my unscientific testing, I was getting about 2.25-3gpm through 3' of 12" tube and the WW so we shall see.

Bugs, don't worry. I'm haven't taken anything as an insult or slap in the face. You need to also realize is that in addition to high head and moderate flow, those pumps also run off of the powersupply. This is a BIG deciding factor for many as with a 12v pump, you run zero risk of turning the computer on and forgetting to turn the pump on - it's integrated like a fan. Also, they are compact - another selling point. when you combine all of these together, you get a very attractive offer.

I really wish we could get some testing and get som head vs c/w. It would probably be a pain to set up having to configure each pump with a flow limiter and all but I think it's something that would benefit everyone.

Yep, the AC vs DC is a big thing for me as well but in a different way. I would prefer to have a AC that doesnt draw power from my PS. I have a simple stopgap setup for now that prevents me from starting my comp without my pump running- I have the computer plugged into a power strip along with my pump. If the power strip is on the pump is running. If the power strip is off and pump not running the computer cannot be started

Cheesy but it works so far.

I actually like the AC pumps, takes the load off of my PSU and fairly easy to move out of the case into a 'cooling box'.

Bugsmasher said:

I actually like the DC pumps, takes the load off of my PSU and fairly easy to move out of the case into a 'cooling box'.

Click to expand...

Uh..AC pumps...but yeah, I'm not a fan of the DC pumps because I run an external system and it'd be a pain to run a 12 volt line to the basement, My Prescott can use all the power it can get, I'd have to do the jumper trick each and everytime I wanted to run the pump by itself, and the fittings on it certainly wouldn't allow it to be screwed directly into my radiator's lower fitting.

Being run by 12 VDC is no guarantee that it will start everytime either...Look into the back of a fan, and you'll see there's a number of components that take care of the pulse timing to the windings, more things to fail than an AC pump has IMHO.

Diggrr said:

Uh..AC pumps...

Click to expand...

*sigh*

Small problem when posting after staying up way too late....people actually can read your posts when they are fully awake

Just to let everyone know, the setup, mag 7, 2-342, and WW with excessive tubing is pushing 2.4gpm \m/

Did you check out the blueline velocity T-3? 800 gph@28 feet of head and only 30db. It's expensive and kinda big but pretty much crushes all but the iwaki. But it's a lot quieter than the iwaki and cheaper as well. Again though it is a big pump.