View Full Version : What is a format smaller than MP3 and wont hurt quality?
beau_safken
11-29-04, 04:22 AM
Masterful Noob questions here...but I need to make some room on the old HD. What file formats should I look for?
Alternatives would be .WMA - Windows Media Audio, used by Windows Media Player, and .OGG - Ogg Vorbis, which is an open source codec : www.vorbis.com
AAC has good quality. It's what iTunes uses.
Albuquerque
11-29-04, 09:23 AM
I don't like WMA because it's proprietary Microsoft...
Ogg Vorbis is good stuff, so are MP3's that are encoded in variable bitrate (VBR). An MP3 encoded at VBR 128kbps can be as much as 50% smaller than a "normal" MP3 at 128kbps, but (in theory) should have no audible quality difference. VBR "listens" to the audio and varies the encoding bitrate according to the demands of the audio. Example: you don't need 128kbps encoding on a small stretch of silence; 32kbps would suffice. It will not exceed the value you specify, but can go down (if I remember correctly) by as much as 75% of the maximal-requested bitrate.
VBR isn't limited to MP3, I know that Ogg uses it too. I use the Lame encoder to compress all my normal music CD's into VBR MP3 format at 320kbps. The audio quality is almost indescernable from CD, but takes around the same space as a 192kbps MP3 stream.
Mustanley
11-29-04, 01:29 PM
Ogg vorbis is the preferred method for encoding in high quality, i.e. >=192kbps, but it won't compress better than mp3 at lower bitrates. WMA compresses better than mp3, with better quality than mp3 at a given bitrate, but like Albuquerque, I don't like the security restrictions that M$ built into the wma format. MP3 is still a good compromise IMO.
And definitely use VBR encoding.
Blackmage
11-30-04, 05:25 AM
Sony AAtrac3plus is the small compression with a great sounding bit rate of 64k it sounds as good as a 128k bit rate on a 1gbmini disc 13hrs 50 mins of songs thats 830mins of music for 1gb of space
football
11-30-04, 06:43 AM
If you're looking for good quality in a small footprint, OGG is the way to go.
A 64bit OGG file sounds just as good as a 128bit MP3 file. And if you use media cards as I do, it helps to beable to double up on music and have good qaulity to boot.
At high bitrates (175kbps and higher) Musepack is the king, although latest development of Ogg Vorbis has catched it.
Albuquerque
11-30-04, 03:16 PM
Sounds like I need to look further into Ogg :) I run all my MP3's at 320kbps VBR, and it sounds like I could be getting even more savings by switching. I didn't realize that Ogg had progressed this much further...
shrinkydinx
11-30-04, 07:11 PM
no matter what, if youre gonna recompress all the music on your computer youre going to lose a lot of quality...
not worth it, get a new hd, theyre cheap...
Albuquerque
11-30-04, 07:13 PM
I'm not going to recompress anything; all the music on my machine came from an actual CD that I own ;) I'll just toss the CD in there, download the newest/latest Ogg compressor DLL, and use CD-Xtractor to rip it.
I'll try a few and see how they compare, and if I like 'em, I'll just convert the rest later when I feel like it -- or at least just use this new method on all CD's I do in the future.
DaWiper
11-30-04, 07:28 PM
Have you tried out the Mp3pro format? It is suppose to give same sq at 64kbps as "old" mp3 gives at 128... If I'm not mistaken it comes with nero or was it musicmatch... can't remeber which.
read more:
http://www.mp3prozone.com/
GerrFel
11-30-04, 09:57 PM
I use OGG and VBR. The explaination of VBR above is good. Read and learn. =)
shrinkydinx
12-01-04, 01:36 PM
I use OGG and VBR. The explaination of VBR above is good. Read and learn. =)
shouldnt your avatar say "rural america has spoken"?
Dragonprince
12-01-04, 03:46 PM
no matter what, if youre gonna recompress all the music on your computer youre going to lose a lot of quality...
not worth it, get a new hd, theyre cheap...
Nod. Either that or buy a CD burner....
MP3 VBR @ 160-190 is almost the perfect blend of size and decent quality. OGG is also a very good choice. WMA and AAC are both sucker bets in my opinion, nothing like having to ask someone's permission to use music you bought, and even worse is having to buy special player's to listen to your own music. No thanks.
football
12-02-04, 11:22 PM
I'm not going to recompress anything; all the music on my machine came from an actual CD that I own ;) I'll just toss the CD in there, download the newest/latest Ogg compressor DLL, and use CD-Xtractor to rip it.
I'll try a few and see how they compare, and if I like 'em, I'll just convert the rest later when I feel like it -- or at least just use this new method on all CD's I do in the future.
Good deal my man, OGG kicks ass!
I'm a PPC user, before I'm a computer user. I must have music on the go, and quality is a must. I still don't like using anything higher than 64bit music files, although memory cards are cheap enough now that I could go higher. But not only will 64bit OGG give great sound, but it helps me save on battery life when using my PPC.:)
Just a shout out for a good free audio converter ((((((dbpoweramp))))))
Later guy's!
.wma has best compression at lower levels, and .mpc *musepack* has best above the 192 range, it's a little smaller than .ogg I've noticed and sounds better I think. 192 mpc is supposedly about as good as 320 mp3, or so the guys over @ musepack's forum say.
MooMasster716
12-03-04, 07:15 PM
Dude you should totaly go OGG. At 192 VBR it sounds amazing and is about the size of a 128 mp3.
.wma has best compression at lower levels, and .mpc *musepack* has best above the 192 range, it's a little smaller than .ogg I've noticed and sounds better I think. 192 mpc is supposedly about as good as 320 mp3, or so the guys over @ musepack's forum say.
At lower levels, Ogg Vorbis and Musepack (yes, even if the codec is aimed for higher bitrate) reign supreme.
http://www.rjamorim.com/test/multiformat128/results.html
Dude you should totaly go OGG. At 192 VBR it sounds amazing and is about the size of a 128 mp3.
There's some confusion now. At the nominal bitrate 192 (-q6) is about the size of 192 mp3, obviously (~same bitrate). Maybe you mean that Ogg Vorbis may achieve quality ~equal to 192 bitrate MP3 with only 128 bitrate (-q4).
If you want almost transparent sound quality (indistinguishable from the source) with mp3 then use Lame with --alt-preset standard which averages about 170-225kbps depending on music content.
Ogg Vorbis is very good. I use it on my SE P900 at 64-80kbps so I can easily fit an album on say a 32Mb memory card and the sound quality is still very good.
Cyrix_2k
12-05-04, 11:09 AM
There's some confusion now. At the nominal bitrate 192 (-q6) is about the size of 192 mp3, obviously (~same bitrate). Maybe you mean that Ogg Vorbis may achieve quality ~equal to 192 bitrate MP3 with only 128 bitrate (-q4).
He said 192k/s VBR compared to a flat rate 128k/s MP3
He said 192k/s VBR compared to a flat rate 128k/s MP3
Read again:
Dude you should totaly go OGG. At 192 VBR it sounds amazing and is about the size of a 128 mp3.
He claims 192 bitrate is the size of a 128 bitrate MP3, doesn't make sense.
Cyrix_2k
12-05-04, 12:29 PM
Read again:
He claims 192 bitrate is the size of a 128 bitrate MP3, doesn't make sense.
192VBR. The bitrate changes according to the needs of the music. The 192 simply means the highest the bit rate will be at ANY point during the song will be 192k/s. At other times, the bit rate may drop up to 75% less than 192k/s, which means at times the song may be playing back at 48k/s.
192VBR. The bitrate changes according to the needs of the music. The 192 simply means the highest the bit rate will be at ANY point during the song will be 192k/s. At other times, the bit rate may drop up to 75% less than 192k/s, which means at times the song may be playing back at 48k/s.
192VBR aims for an average bitrate of 192kbps and therefore virtually every normal piece of music will be greater size than just a 128kbps CBR MP3. 192 is not the top bitrate of the mode, that would be silly. The bitrate can hit 500kbps for some frames if needed, that's the idea.
shrinkydinx
12-05-04, 02:29 PM
192VBR. The bitrate changes according to the needs of the music. The 192 simply means the highest the bit rate will be at ANY point during the song will be 192k/s. At other times, the bit rate may drop up to 75% less than 192k/s, which means at times the song may be playing back at 48k/s.
wrong.
Cyrix_2k
12-05-04, 02:35 PM
192VBR aims for an average bitrate of 192kbps and therefore virtually every normal piece of music will be greater size than just a 128kbps CBR MP3. 192 is not the top bitrate of the mode, that would be silly. The bitrate can hit 500kbps for some frames if needed, that's the idea.
I didn't relize(sp?) that... :bang head
Albuquerque
12-09-04, 01:40 PM
192VBR aims for an average bitrate of 192kbps and therefore virtually every normal piece of music will be greater size than just a 128kbps CBR MP3. 192 is not the top bitrate of the mode, that would be silly. The bitrate can hit 500kbps for some frames if needed, that's the idea.
Actually, I'm digging this topic back up because I did some more research. The quote above me here is only half correct, and so was my own interpretation from further up in the thread.
VBR does not aim for any average bitrate; in fact the bitrate you specify (say for example 192kbps VBR) really is only a suggestion at best. And unless you override the values, that bitrate doesn't specify any sort of lower or upper bound either. The best mathematical way to explain it is this: a VBR encoder will compress the frames of music at whatever bitrate necessary in order to give a "general quality" of your requested bitrate. A stretch of silence can get some UBER compression to "sound like" 192kbps, but a stretch of vocals and french horns may need quite a bit more.
As a general rule, unless you specify otherwise, nearly all VBR compressors will set a limit of 320kbps due to DVD encoding limitations. There doesn't seem to be any lower limit to speak of, or at least that I could find. The genreal end result is a file that's smaller than what you requested. A one minute long 192kbps audio stream should be right at 1.37mb. A one minute long 192kbps VBR audio stream (on average) will end up being more like a 110-120kbps stream, so your 1.37mb file (again, on average) would actually end up being around 800-875kb in size.
When talking about a VBR compression algorithm that works towards an average bitrate, you're talking about ABR. If you specify a 192kbps ABR stream, that means the file size will be exactly the same as a 192kbps constant bitrate file. The difference is, the encoder uses a "bitbucket" of sorts... During passages that can be highly compressed, the "leftover space" from the frame is added to this bitbucket. That leftover space can then be used later during a frame that cannot be as tightly compressed. The end result is a file that's almost the same size (maybe slightly smaller) but will achieve a general average result of the bitrate you requested.
Lots of good information on this stuff out on Google. :)
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