View Full Version : Maybe an X800.
Schalldampfer
12-04-04, 03:23 PM
My computer is as follows:
Asus K8V-SE Deluxe, A64 Newcastle 3200+, 1 gig PC3200 RAM, 9800Pro @ XT. My grandparents are coming over for the Christmas season, so I think I can get an X800 of some sort. Would the upgrade be worthy from my 9800? And if yes, which X800, Pro or XT (And no XT-PE... I have very short patience.)?
My computer is as follows:
Asus K8V-SE Deluxe, A64 Newcastle 3200+, 1 gig PC3200 RAM, 9800Pro @ XT. My grandparents are coming over for the Christmas season, so I think I can get an X800 of some sort. Would the upgrade be worthy from my 9800? And if yes, which X800, Pro or XT (And no XT-PE... I have very short patience.)?
X800XT all the way dude. pe even better. :D
deception``
12-04-04, 03:30 PM
My computer is as follows:
Asus K8V-SE Deluxe, A64 Newcastle 3200+, 1 gig PC3200 RAM, 9800Pro @ XT. My grandparents are coming over for the Christmas season, so I think I can get an X800 of some sort. Would the upgrade be worthy from my 9800? And if yes, which X800, Pro or XT (And no XT-PE... I have very short patience.)?
I'd swap out the motherboard for the DFI UT, instead. I say this because the Asus K8V does not have a working AGP/PCI lock, so you are really prohibited to do any overclocking here. If it were up to me, I'd go for the Lanparty UT and pair it with the 6600GT. This way you have a nice card that is faster than your XT, and you can also overclock your system (whether heavy or mild) to enjoy a much better overall performance boost in your system. Sure, an x800 will net you big gains from a 9800, but I still think that a nice midrange card like the 6600GT paired with a decent DFI overclock is worth much more. Most importantly, though is the fact that both the motherboard and 6600GT can be had for less than a single x800.
deception``
Sentential
12-04-04, 03:38 PM
I'd swap out the motherboard for the DFI UT, instead. I say this because the Asus K8V does not have a working AGP/PCI lock, so you are really prohibited to do any overclocking here.
deception``
I second that notion. I think overall, simply getting a better gfx card wont really satisfy you as much as getting perhaps a slightly slower one (6800GT or x800PRO) with a new DFI UT mobo.
That way you can remove your gfx card bottleneck and CPU at the same time.
Schalldampfer
12-04-04, 03:41 PM
Ah... a new motherboard... well, there goes my plan of upgrading my 3-month old computer... too lazy to do all that... haha... I guess I'm stuck with the current setup until I get a totally new computer.
Sentential
12-04-04, 03:50 PM
Ah... a new motherboard... well, there goes my plan of upgrading my 3-month old computer... too lazy to do all that... haha... I guess I'm stuck with the current setup until I get a totally new computer.
Well you *could* just get a new mobo. Thats always a thought.
deception``
12-04-04, 03:55 PM
Ah... a new motherboard... well, there goes my plan of upgrading my 3-month old computer... too lazy to do all that... haha... I guess I'm stuck with the current setup until I get a totally new computer.
Honestly, though, the best thing for you to do besides the DFI/6600GT combo is to simply wait and save up your X-Mas cash for a nice PCIe system. Sure, it probably won't be worth upgrading for a couple of months, but this way you get a leg-up on saving for the right system. I would not, however, sit on your current rig for too long, as there are much better alternatives to be had that are actually a little more future-proof. Besides, you don't even need anything more than a 9800 Pro unless you're a pretty heavy gamer. So if this does not seem to fit, then you need not apply. Just sit tight, enjoy your current system, and save up your cash for the next best thing. As I said, you will surely see a gain from a DFI and 6600GT......even an x800 card. But I'd recommend that you just save your cash until a smarter buy presents itself (which, in this case, will probably be s939/PCIe).
deception``
Schalldampfer
12-04-04, 04:02 PM
Yeah... I shall take your advice to hear, deception. Thanks for your input.
Hmmm don't think i agree with that at all.
A x800XT would be a far more impressive upgrade than the DFI and a 6600GT.
Whats the point in going from a 9800XT to a 6600GT? No less than a 6800NU i say. Preferable a 6800GT or X800Pro at the least.
Id really reccomend a X800XT. The PE's are to hard to find still, and you should be able to o/c the XT to PE speeds.
A new mobo would be handy though, but definatly don't get a 6600gt.
You don't need to upgrade to PCI like deception says, your PC is very good.
Id go with your oginal plan. An x800xt. :cool:
Sentential
12-04-04, 05:14 PM
Hmmm don't think i agree with that at all.
A x800XT would be a far more impressive upgrade than the DFI and a 6600GT.
Whats the point in going from a 9800XT to a 6600GT? No less than a 6800NU i say. Preferable a 6800GT or X800Pro at the least.
Id really reccomend a X800XT. The PE's are to hard to find still, and you should be able to o/c the XT to PE speeds.
A new mobo would be handy though, but definatly don't get a 6600gt.
You don't need to upgrade to PCI like deception says, your PC is very good.
Id go with your oginal plan. An x800xt. :cool:
Why? I dont undestand. He's limited to 2.5..... how would be getting a almost non-existant vcard going to help him, when he is ALREADY cpu limited.
ya, OC your CPU and bottleneck it with the vid card. great advice. :-/
Why? I dont undestand. He's limited to 2.5..... how would be getting a almost non-existant vcard going to help him, when he is ALREADY cpu limited.
*REMOVED*
An A64 is not a bottleneck, jesus christ the lord.
He's limited to 2.5 what???
Like the guy above says. Overloc the CPU a bit more, yeah great advice.
An x800, would be way more worthwhile.
That was NOT needed here. --JigPu
micamica1217
12-04-04, 06:06 PM
*REMOVED*
An A64 is not a bottleneck, jesus christ the lord.
He's limited to 2.5 what???
Like the guy above says. Overloc the CPU a bit more, yeah great advice.
An x800, would be way more worthwhile.
agreed.
an x800pro or x800xt will be a huge boost in framerate with higher res, and more AA and AF....
OCing that A64 CPU will still keep him stuck at 1024x768 in most games...just slightly faster framerate when he's not vid card limited.
a faster card like the x800pro, he'll now be playing at 1280x1024 with 4xAA and 8xAF in most games at stock speeds.
I just don't understand the need to spend money on a 3% performance boost, when you can get a 100% performance boost with just a vid card upgrade...???
mica
dude, an XT or PE and your livin' large. :)
Heheh definatly fellas
Hell knows what deception and sen were smoking when they typed that. :rolleyes:
deception``
12-04-04, 08:05 PM
Heheh definatly fellas
Hell knows what deception and sen were smoking when they typed that. :rolleyes:
I wasn't smoking anything. Rather, I am simply trying to protect the member and his money. In other words, I'd much rather he spend his money as wisely as possible. And unless he's real heavy into games, there's no need for him to shell out so much cash on one card at the moment, especially something AGP.
deeption``
Your suggestiosn make no sense at all.
A new mobo would be what £80 if he wants PCI Express which you seem to adore and then the 6600gt would be 150quid.
You can get a X800Proor 6800GT for that.
H alread had a 9800pro.
An Athlon 3200+ is a good, fast CPU. Overlcocking it to what 2.5ghz at most, would give him what? 10fps more at low res's????
An x800 at least doubles frame rates compared to a 9800Pro. And at higher res's and AA/AF will destroy a 6600gt and 9800Pro.
Next time you wanna help, use some common sense. :burn:
deception``
12-04-04, 08:25 PM
Grov, you're pretty quick to attack someone's common sense. Unfortunately, I do not care to bicker with you on this matter. Nonetheless, until you know exactly what the member's interests are (i.e. whether or not he is a heavy gamer) you are assuming as well. So I suggest that you just back down from your pedastal because you are no more correct than myself.
deception``
Sentential
12-04-04, 09:28 PM
*REMOVED*
An A64 is not a bottleneck, jesus christ the lord.
He's limited to 2.5 what???
Like the guy above says. Overloc the CPU a bit more, yeah great advice.
An x800, would be way more worthwhile.
HE CANT for starters :mad: what about NO PCI lock do you not understand? Secondally do I have to post WHY he will be CPU limited. I have scores out the yin-yang I can post that prove my point :rolleyes:
He is better off with either getting a new mobo and cooling, or getting a better mobo and a x800PRO
hemidude
12-04-04, 09:29 PM
Compusa still has the Vivo's. I got one today and flashed to an X800xt-pe. Not bad for $399. :clap:
Sentential
12-04-04, 09:32 PM
To finally anwser the question of being CPU limited..... here's your proof:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v180/Sentential/currentclocks.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v180/Sentential/fumarkcomparison.jpg
Almost 1,000 more 3dmark points for 90mhz on the CPU.....yea thats DEFINALY NOT cpu limited alright :rolleyes:
if your upgrading ur ram and not using your current gig of ram , ill be honored to take it :]]
To finally anwser the question of being CPU limited..... here's your proof:
<images removed>
Almost 1,000 more 3dmark points for 90mhz on the CPU.....yea thats DEFINALY NOT cpu limited alright :rolleyes:
Ummm, why are you using 3DMark01 of all tests? I mean, sure it's valid, but we're talking about a DirectX 8.1 test that's CPU limited with most ANY modern card. You're going to have to do better than that to show he's CPU limited IMO...
Edit: Thanks Sen :)
JigPu
Sentential
12-04-04, 10:12 PM
Ummm, why are you using 3DMark01 of all tests? I mean, sure it's valid, but we're talking about a DirectX 8.1 test that's CPU limited with most ANY modern card. You're going to have to do better than that to show he's CPU limited IMO...
BTW, as a personal request, could you remove 'damn' from your post? It's not violating anything as-is, but it's certianly not nesscessary.
JigPu
He has been posting combative and downright nasty replies to ALL of his posts today, and frankly im getting sick and tired of hearing it.
Althought it isnt an excuse, it has become quite tiresome....:mad:
<edited post>
He has been posting combative and downright nasty replies to ALL of his posts today, and frankly im getting sick and tired of hearing it.
Althought it isnt an excuse, it has become quite tiresome....:mad:
<edited post>
I hear ya. Taking the high road isn't a fun or easy path, but it's the best one. As I think the mod's broken-record line goes... "just PM us if you've got a problem with somebody" :) We seriously prefer working this kinda stuff to dealing with flamewars :D
JigPu
Sentential
12-04-04, 10:51 PM
I hear ya. Taking the high road isn't a fun or easy path, but it's the best one. As I think the mod's broken-record line goes... "just PM us if you've got a problem with somebody" :) We seriously prefer working this kinda stuff to dealing with flamewars :D
JigPu
Understood :cool: :D
To finally anwser the question of being CPU limited..... here's your proof:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v180/Sentential/currentclocks.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v180/Sentential/fumarkcomparison.jpg
Almost 1,000 more 3dmark points for 90mhz on the CPU.....yea thats DEFINALY NOT cpu limited alright :rolleyes:
HAHA!! LOL.
Sentential
12-05-04, 08:23 AM
HAHA!! LOL.
:confused: What now? <like i *really* have to ask :mad:>
<unsubscribed>
its really up to the poster. seemed to me that he was looking for better gaming performance.
now if all that matters is braggin' rights of a high OC, well. :beer:
:confused: What now? <like i *really* have to ask :mad:>
<unsubscribed>
Where do start.
For a start, the stupid benchmark that you posted, is exactly that. It's an old benchmark, got nothing to mdo with games like HL2 D3 Far Cry.
2nd, the one with the higher score has a 6 FSB increase as well, yes very fair.
Look at the nature score. I assume thats the most GPU intensive, and the score isn't very different.
Great, he gets a new mobo, and say clocks the 3200 to 2.5ghz. So now he has a smokin fast CPU and no decent video card.
What has this upgrade achieved? He can now brag about a faster cpu, and he can play games at the same settings, with a faster FPS.
An x800 would allow 1600x1200 with all the bells and whistles on.
A 3200+ is a quality CPU. Seriously calling it a bottleneck is downright ignorant.
Even if the board has no locks, you can still overclock em like 10fsb from what ive read, so there ya 100mhz or w/e there.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
deception``
12-05-04, 11:37 AM
Where do start.
For a start, the stupid benchmark that you posted, is exactly that. It's an old benchmark, got nothing to mdo with games like HL2 D3 Far Cry.
2nd, the one with the higher score has a 6 FSB increase as well, yes very fair.
Look at the nature score. I assume thats the most GPU intensive, and the score isn't very different.
Great, he gets a new mobo, and say clocks the 3200 to 2.5ghz. So now he has a smokin fast CPU and no decent video card.
What has this upgrade achieved? He can now brag about a faster cpu, and he can play games at the same settings, with a faster FPS.
An x800 would allow 1600x1200 with all the bells and whistles on.
A 3200+ is a quality CPU. Seriously calling it a bottleneck is downright ignorant.
Even if the board has no locks, you can still overclock em like 10fsb from what ive read, so there ya 100mhz or w/e there.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Assuming that high res is important to the member without him even saying so is pretty ignorant if you ask me. Like I said, you have a lot of nerve calling others names when you are making a fair amount of assumtions here as well. Until the member has expressed exactly what is goals are, keep it yourself.
deception``
hemidude
12-05-04, 11:39 AM
The X800 is a great card. Why dont you just leave it at that! :clap:
Schalldampfer
12-05-04, 12:03 PM
Alright... it seems that I have made all of you confused, so let me clarify. I am somewhat of a gamer... I keep up with the latest games rarely, rarely meaning I go only for games with extraordinarily good reviews, such as HL2 and D3. And as for the resolution, I am monitor-limited to 1024x800.
hemidude
12-05-04, 12:05 PM
Alright... it seems that I have made all of you confused, so let me clarify. I am somewhat of a gamer... I keep up with the latest games rarely, rarely meaning I go only for games with extraordinarily good reviews, such as HL2 and D3. And as for the resolution, I am monitor-limited to 1024x800.
I prefer the X800 for gaming. :attn:
Schalldampfer
12-05-04, 12:17 PM
Yeah... X800 would be nice... but I think I'll be staying put with my 9800; it handles things excellently for me. That's what I'm leaning towards as of the moment.
Cyrix_2k
12-05-04, 12:24 PM
Alright... it seems that I have made all of you confused, so let me clarify. I am somewhat of a gamer... I keep up with the latest games rarely, rarely meaning I go only for games with extraordinarily good reviews, such as HL2 and D3. And as for the resolution, I am monitor-limited to 1024x800.
you mean 1024x768 right? I guess that means you have an LCD, like me, which also means you can't "see" the difference in FPS over 60, as the monitor's refresh rate is 60 hz (frames/sec). If I were you, I'd get a new mobo and keep your 9800pro. It will work fine for games like D3 and HL2, atleast at 1024x768.
If I were you, I'd spend the extra money on a nice WC'ing system (to work with the new mobo). While it won't help you OC your CPU much further, it will yield a better OC on the 9800 and give you a significantly quieter system as well. Plus it's just fun to tinker with ;) I swear that WC'ing is addictive.
Don't bother with a new video card.
Get a FX-55. Your 3200+ is liek a Pentium 2 in speed.
OMG.
hemidude
12-05-04, 03:06 PM
Don't bother with a new video card.
Get a FX-55. Your 3200+ is liek a Pentium 2 in speed.
OMG.
:confused:
Schalldampfer
12-05-04, 03:09 PM
I don't have my CPU OCed yet... I will when I can get my hands on an XP-120. But it did 2.4 at stock perfectly finely.
sandman001
12-05-04, 03:25 PM
Assuming that high res is important to the member without him even saying so is pretty ignorant if you ask me. Like I said, you have a lot of nerve calling others names when you are making a fair amount of assumtions here as well. Until the member has expressed exactly what is goals are, keep it yourself.
deception``
No offense, but you don't look at an X800XT unless you likeplaying games at a high res and with all the details on.
I think that he'd do better to either:
Stick with what he has, and overclock it, or get the X800 and see how it does for him, if he's cpu limited at that point, then go ahead and get the DFI lanparty board.
It all depends what games he wants to play, and how far he can overclcok with his current board.
I managed a 350mhz overclock with an unlocked PCI bus, he might be able to overclock a decent amount with an unlocked PCI bus.
Schalldampfer
12-05-04, 03:25 PM
you mean 1024x768 right? I guess that means you have an LCD, like me, which also means you can't "see" the difference in FPS over 60, as the monitor's refresh rate is 60 hz (frames/sec).
That's interesting. I've heard something about it, but it hit me just now. So these people who worry about getting over 50FPS's and such are ones using CRT's?
Schalldampfer
12-05-04, 03:26 PM
No offense, but you don't look at an X800XT unless you likeplaying games at a high res and with all the details on.
I think that he'd do better to either:
Stick with what he has, and overclock it, or get the X800 and see how it does for him, if he's cpu limited at that point, then go ahead and get the DFI lanparty board.
It all depends what games he wants to play, and how far he can overclcok with his current board.
I managed a 350mhz overclock with an unlocked PCI bus, he might be able to overclock a decent amount with an unlocked PCI bus.
I went 2.4ghz on my AMD on stock cooling. Soon, I'll get an XP-120 and push it further.
deception``
12-05-04, 03:30 PM
No offense, but you don't look at an X800XT unless you likeplaying games at a high res and with all the details on.
This is far from true. As a matter of fact, this is a pretty big assumption within itself. There are many enthusiasts that care nothing about AA/AF and 1600x1200 resolutions and are only concerned with raw performance. Besides, the member expressly stated that his own monitor will not support such high-res options. Therefore, his current 9800 Pro will suit him for quite some time.
Cyrix_2k
12-05-04, 03:46 PM
That's interesting. I've heard something about it, but it hit me just now. So these people who worry about getting over 50FPS's and such are ones using CRT's?
Or they're uneducated... If the display's only updating at 60 FPS (60hz), then it does no good to have a game updating the video card at 300 FPS. All the card is going to do is "Throw Away" 240 FPS... Which can create visual artifacts known as "tearing". That's why games usually have an option known as "V-sync". That locks your FPS to your monitors refresh rate.
With your max resolution being what it is, upgrading to an X800 pretty much means that you'll be able to play games with higher AA/AF. If you're doing fine with IQ and framerates currently, I'd look into a new mobo or even monitor (though I'd only upgrade the monitor if you're using a CRT that's limited to 1024x768, if you're using an LCD, I wouldn't bother upgrading it). The X800 really won't do you much more good at that resolution (...I don't think anyway...).
JigPu
Overclocker550
12-06-04, 12:40 AM
are you telling me if someone runs 60Hz in games without vsync he will only see 60fps max? sounds false to me. I get slight tearing but I get to see as many fps as my cpu can pull out, albet my eyes are fooled into seeing fluid motion at 30fps, maybe my brain can see like 100fps. anyway quit the flames. He is monitor limited to 1024x768 so there is NO point in an x800 unless he runs 1600x1200 with aa/af. In this case, him upgrading to s939 mobo and winchester will serve him handsomly. besides agp is dead, why should be be stuck with a $500 x800 agp without an agp slot for it? I for one am not buying another agp card, I will stick with my 9700pro till it becomes an artifact LOL
Overclocker550
12-06-04, 12:40 AM
are you telling me if someone runs 60Hz in games without vsync he will only see 60fps max? sounds false to me. I get slight tearing but I get to see as many fps as my cpu can pull out, albet my eyes are fooled into seeing fluid motion at 30fps, maybe my brain can see like 100fps. anyway quit the flames. He is monitor limited to 1024x768 so there is NO point in an x800 unless he runs 1600x1200 with aa/af. In this case, him upgrading to s939 mobo and winchester will serve him handsomly. besides agp is dead, why should be be stuck with a $500 x800 agp without an agp slot for it? I for one am not buying another agp card, I will stick with my 9700pro till it becomes an artifact LOL
you mean 1024x768 right? I guess that means you have an LCD, like me, which also means you can't "see" the difference in FPS over 60, as the monitor's refresh rate is 60 hz (frames/sec). If I were you, I'd get a new mobo and keep your 9800pro. It will work fine for games like D3 and HL2, atleast at 1024x768.
using that logic it stands to reason that he should only need to run a P4 2.4 because he cant use the FPS of anything more. why bother upgrading at all? :attn:
oh, and if you think you can run Doom3 maxed at 10X7 with only 9800 whatever your wrong!! you cant even do it with a x800pro. :attn:
flawed!
are you telling me if someone runs 60Hz in games without vsync he will only see 60fps max? sounds false to me. I get slight tearing but I get to see as many fps as my cpu can pull out, albet my eyes are fooled into seeing fluid motion at 30fps, maybe my brain can see like 100fps. anyway quit the flames. He is monitor limited to 1024x768 so there is NO point in an x800 unless he runs 1600x1200 with aa/af. In this case, him upgrading to s939 mobo and winchester will serve him handsomly. besides agp is dead, why should be be stuck with a $500 x800 agp without an agp slot for it? I for one am not buying another agp card, I will stick with my 9700pro till it becomes an artifact LOL
Hi,
LOL I just had to say some thing on that in your post, I set it in BOLD. Yes agp is dead but not buried, I would think the funeral is going to take at least 2 years.
Not a flame, I just remember when agp came about it took at least that long for it to bury the older pci cards.
Later
RGP
are you telling me if someone runs 60Hz in games without vsync he will only see 60fps max? sounds false to me. I get slight tearing but I get to see as many fps as my cpu can pull out, albet my eyes are fooled into seeing fluid motion at 30fps, maybe my brain can see like 100fps. anyway quit the flames. He is monitor limited to 1024x768 so there is NO point in an x800 unless he runs 1600x1200 with aa/af. In this case, him upgrading to s939 mobo and winchester will serve him handsomly. besides agp is dead, why should be be stuck with a $500 x800 agp without an agp slot for it? I for one am not buying another agp card, I will stick with my 9700pro till it becomes an artifact LOL
Dude, what the hell.
he has a perfectly good CPU
Get of your winchester high horse. I doubt you even have one.
Overclocker550
12-06-04, 08:42 PM
once my dual channel corsair value comes you will see 3dmark scores with my winchester. I expect to break 20.5k with ti4200 and 22k with 9500np
mattspalace
12-06-04, 08:48 PM
My XT-PE does 35k..
You had a winchester..what happened to it?
value select...what a waste on an A64 rig.
We tried telling you before, so I won't start that headache again.
Jimbob7
12-06-04, 09:00 PM
ARGH, whoever started this thread, i forget after all the benchmark talk, where the extra 200mhz actual counts for something, (dont get me wrong, 3dmark is great, but i dont think this guy really cares about it at this point.)
DONT LISTEN TO THESE PEOPLE ^^ GET A X800PRO/XT
Schalldampfer
12-06-04, 09:41 PM
Haha... the discussion, that so obviously caused pain, is closed. I'm sticking with what I have. I'm sorry for having you guys all worked up.
Cyrix_2k
12-06-04, 10:05 PM
are you telling me if someone runs 60Hz in games without vsync he will only see 60fps max? sounds false to me. I get slight tearing but I get to see as many fps as my cpu can pull out, albet my eyes are fooled into seeing fluid motion at 30fps, maybe my brain can see like 100fps. anyway quit the flames. He is monitor limited to 1024x768 so there is NO point in an x800 unless he runs 1600x1200 with aa/af. In this case, him upgrading to s939 mobo and winchester will serve him handsomly. besides agp is dead, why should be be stuck with a $500 x800 agp without an agp slot for it? I for one am not buying another agp card, I will stick with my 9700pro till it becomes an artifact LOL
C'mon... You can't possibly see more frames then your monitor is displaying unless the video card magically beams the extra frames to your brain. The fact is the monitor is updating the picture 60 times a second. You CAN NOT see more pictures than that (your refresh rate in hz). AND LCD's that have subpar response aren't able to display that many pictures. IIRC (don't quote me on this), an LCD with a response time of 30ms is only able to display a MAX of 43fps. (Don't take this as a flame, it's not intended to be one)
And no, I can't run Doom3 at MAX settings with my 9800pro... But it runs well enough that it isn't worth a new card. Anyway, the limitation in Doom3 with me isn't my video card, it's my RAM/CPU/HDD. After I get all of that stuff fixed, then it would be time for an x800, although a 9800 Pro can handle Doom 3 at high settings @1024x768 (~30-35fps average) np.
Schalldampfer
12-06-04, 10:07 PM
I see that this thread has now strayed away from the creator's intent... so be it. Have fun discussing. And as for me, I shall watch how things go here.
Cyrix_2k
12-06-04, 10:10 PM
I see that this thread has now strayed away from the creator's intent... so be it. Have fun discussing. And as for me, I shall watch how things go here.
Didn't see your earlier post. I started my previous post, left the computer, then finished it.
NinjaWreck
12-06-04, 10:13 PM
I hope someone closes this confusing thread. There are too many misinformed post to wrap my brain around.
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