Too cold?

[Tu13erhead]

I build a WC kit using an older water bubbler (drinking fountain for you non New Englanders). I ran it overnight last night, and noticed that the block is fogging up because the water is so cold.

What to do?

[Yamiyanazz]

insulation might be a good idea? I'm not experienced in the field, but I think that is what some of the extreme cooling guys do...

[Tu13erhead]

Well, the problem is it's fogging up even on the bottom...

[zip22]

yeah, but if the block is contacting your cpu, it cant fog up. the fog only happens when the object is colder than the dew point and contacts the air. so you will have to insulate your tubing, and around th block so that none of it contacts the air. you would get more help with that in extreme cooling

[ctrl_alt_del_]

yeah I'd think that's more in tune with what the extreme cooling guys do...
maybe some of that thermal grease thing they use for phase change around the socket??

[=ACID RAIN=]

I build a WC kit using an older water bubbler (drinking fountain for you non New Englanders). I ran it overnight last night, and noticed that the block is fogging up because the water is so cold.

What to do?
So THAT is what that means! I kept hearing that term and wondered what the hell that was, but I didn't want to ask hehe.

I would recommend you insulate the tube heading towards the block, and maybe the one leaving. Any other tubes that seem cloudy should be covered too. Don't forget your block, insulate it well too, especially if you expect more humidity in the future.

[Wicked Klown]

You might want to insulate around the socket as well as the lines and block. Kinda take the same steps used in pelt cooling. People here in Wisconsin call them bubblers as well.

[Jungle]

definately have to insulate when going sub-ambient. enough condensation will eventually drip and may cause a pretty spark, but also other bad things...

jungle

[Tu13erhead]

How should I go about insulating the block?

[MadSkillzMan]

hey Tu13erhead...lol toldya ud have these problems...just ask in extreme cooling, they know their stuff....worse comes to worse, Xtremesystems.org would definently know, your not doing phase change, but theyll know man. good luck.

[Skeen]

If you haven't already sought advice from the professionals, an amateur (me) can give you an idea how to insulate your gear. I think they glue or somehow affix neoprene or some other "closed cell" -type foam all over the block including the bottom, just leaving a tiny square that the cpu will contact. You also have to insulate the cpu socket since there's usually a little pocket of air under the cpu where the on board thermal diode resides. Many folks fill this up with dialectric grease though I've heard that Vaseline might work. Insulating the hoses are pretty simple since the hardware store already sells pipe insulation (it kind of looks like the padding on old bmx bikes).

There's probably more to it but that should at least illustrate how much of a pain in the ass it is.

/edit: Oh you also will have to glue (or whatever) a piece of that neoprene to the under side of your mobo so that condensation doesn't form on the back side of the mobo. I've heard there is a product called Liquid Electrical Tape or something that you can spray all over the back instead.

[Tu13erhead]

Wow, that's pretty hardcore...

[Tu13erhead]

Hmm...I've been running the system all day outside the case and found something. The block doesn't fog up or condense at all, until I touch it. It's like when you put your hand on the inside of a car window.

Dunno if this is good or bad...

[Joe Camel]

HERE (http://phase-change.com/index.php?action=Articles_page&cat=Guides&id=25&page=3)

is a nice little page/ guide

GOOD LUCK!

ok, first off, lets get an idea of what temps this thing you have is getting to...can you take a temp reading of the water or the waterblock while running for >30 min no load?
can you take/post a few pics?

[Tu13erhead]

I had hooked up the system to my PC a few days ago, when I had no resevoir, just a closed system. Coldest I got it was 21C idle and 24C load. However, a few days later I realized I had some bubbles in the block and it would only go to 27C idle. I've fixed the air problem, but have not hooked it up to the PC yet.

EDIT: Water temp should be between 2-4C, and though I have no thermometer handy, it's hella cold.

I'm going to buy some 1" ID hoses which will go over the hoses that connect to the block. I'll clamp the larger hose as close to the block as I can. Basically it's so if any of the connections near the block leaks, the water will flow through the larger tubing out of my case, rather than onto my components.


Here's my kit so far:
http://community.webshots.com/album/244388401UvTrmh

[Joe Camel]

ok. that, my friend, is what we in the BIZ call a chiller.

HERE (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=155) is the section over @ Xtreme on "chillers"...read up!

GOOD LUCK!!

thats "jan''s chiller over on xtreme :eek:

[Tu13erhead]

Okay, I haven't insulated it yet, just decided to hook it up to see what I get for temps. I'm idling at 30C and load of 35C. Last time it was hooked up it got down to 21C, and right before I took it apart it was idling about 28C. I don't get why the higher temps, I'm almost positive I got all the air out of the block.

Help! What's my problem?

[Tu13erhead]

Well, I did a few repetitions of load/idle, and then shut the PC down for 10 minutes with the pump and fridge still running. Turned it on, and TA-DA!

19.5C full load, 15C idle.

Ohh yes.

[Joe Camel]

the "trick" with chillers (as you just learned) is getting a nice COLD start. a lot has to do with the size (HP rating) of your compressor. most "smaller" compressors cant handle the heat load of "modern" CPU's, so you can use your res a buffer between the CPU and the compressor. depending on the size of your res, it might take 1 hour to "take away all the cold energy" the compressor put into it...does that make any sense?

that (and condensation) is why people insulate the heck out of everything on their chiller; trying to keep the CPU as the only heat source the compressor has to overcome. unfortunately, during the "chill down" period is when you can get condensation on the tubes/WB/res...

condensation only happens to things that are colder than the dew point of the air its in. dew point chart (http://www.lamtec.com/dew-point-calculator.htm) , its dependent on air temp AND (relative) humidity.

this is also the time that you run the risk of freezing your coolant IE if your using JUST distilled water, and you get it -0C its going to freeze. so you start putting car antifreeze in the mix, unfortunately, that makes your "water" thicker and thus slows down the flow rate with lowers the efficiency of you WB. there are a few other additives that many chillers' use but im not a "pro" @ this...

GOOD LUCK and BE SAFE keep an eye out for condensation although it *MIGHT* not kill anything, the possibility of a dead mobo/CPU/vid card/PSU/MEM is always there!

[Tu13erhead]

Yep, I understand the deal with the resevoir.

So far, condensation is non-existant. The tubes and block "feel" wet, but they aren't...they're just so cold.

I haven't decided if I'm going to set the thermostat below 0. If I do I'll be sure to add some antifreeze.

Thanks Joe.

[Joe Camel]

I haven't decided if I'm going to set the thermostat below 0.

@ the setting you have it now, does the compressor run all the time?

with a really well insulated res, you might be able to have it not run all the time.

also, with a thermostat, you could "walk the line" and keep the water @ just above the dew point and thus not have to worry about condensation...

keep in mind that the compressor might not be designed to run all the time, and you might "burn it out" with constant use.

[jcarey1]

How can you determine relative humidity of a given room? Is there a formula that is used for this?

[Joe Camel]

THIS (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F010%5F005%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=63%2D1030) is what i use...you can have up to 2 remote sensors (+the base) that you can put in different places.

[jcarey1]

Thanks, i'm going to get one first thing in the morning

[nicspits]

a few tips that will come in handy as well:

coat your socket area and the area below it with clear coat acrylic if any condensation should drop or tubes leak as well (universal good idea, get two bottles just incase, clear nail polish). Also apply this to the cpu surface and insocket area.

don't forget to insulate inside the socket with neoprene or any other closed cell foam, foam tape works well enough.

A good thing to do is get some silicate packets (like they put in paint ball bags, etc.) and place these near the socket and intake fans to lower the humidity in the case. also works well in a fridge if your not a arm and hammer kind of guy. You only need to replace these about every 2 years or so, if that.

have a fan blowing directly in the socket area to keep those surface temps closer to ambient so that they do not condense.

Definately add anti-freeze for those really cold days so your water does not freeze and clog up the tubes (no flow=shut down from over temp).

Just so you know, i have my radiators cooled using outside air, which right now in RI is 22F. I have my block insulated with neoprene, just around the copper area, not on the lucite. I use the silicon packets and have 2x80mms that blow in the general direction of the socket area (rear fan intake, and one on the back of my gcard blowing across ramsinks towards the northbridge and beyond). Using these methods, I've not had one problem with condensation, at all.

With a peltier setup, it is crucial to get a good seal from the socket area neoprene to the block neoprene, well smeared silicon is good for this, just make sure your system posts first so you don't have to worry about pealing it off. It's always good to use thicker neoprene around the socket so that the compression also helps with the seal.

Good luck and enjoy your cpu, it should go mighty fast now (see my sig, lol). :beer:

Edit: God I love New England