Project Overkill

[rogerdugans]

In the recent past I have come across a "few little parts" to build into a pc watercooling system. (Understand that I have about 5 water cooled computers here...)

I am pleased to report that the initial testing has been successful.
I now have a test bed system consisting of an Epox 8kha+ and Athlon XP 2200@2078 (1.71 volt vcore) running on this test loop. Idle temp is about 34c, load about 38c.
The ONLY fans in this system are the psu, chipset and video card.

The test loop consists of:
Aquajoe water block
1/2" ID Clearflex tube (about 5 feet)

and I few items I was able to scrounge from jobsites as we replaced heating systems.....

Namely a heating coil made of 1" stainless steel tube-about 5.5 feet long, with 24 individual heating tubes mounted in "header tanks" on the ends. (Two pass unit.)
A Taco 0011-bronze cartridge circulator (pump) circulating about 1400 gallons per hour through the loop.

I have a small manifold of 1" copper tube set up to fill/bleed the system and included a bypass line to test the impact of flow reduction. Max flow is best.
Water temp runs right around 25c regardless of cpu load.

I will in the future be making a few changes to the system:

A manifold that will allow me to connect multiple computers on the fly.
Burying the heating element in my yard below the frost line for ground effect cooling.
Adding flow sensor and temperate probes to monitor temperature through a pc.

The goal of the project is to see if I can cool all the rigs with the one system SILENTLY.
Note that this is NOT a cost-effective project:
the original cost of the heating element was about $1200
The cost of the pump is just under $300
I have about $150 worth of copper and brass pipe and fittings in use or waiting more parts.

I have SPENT about $35. ;)

Pics will be up once I find the *%#! power cable for my camera, rofl.

[{PMS}fishy]

Im watching this. Glad to have you back.

[Diggrr]

Welcome to Overkillers Annonymous!

Sounds like a great system and I look forward to the pics too.

And good to see you around!

[XeonStrikeForce]

Sadly my design is a tad noisier but the same thing. I'm Aimming to coole all three of my heavier servers from one pump station :)

[rogerdugans]

Found the charger.

A pair of "overview" shots:
http://www.getgood.com/dfgnet/pictures/overkill/0001.jpg
http://www.getgood.com/dfgnet/pictures/overkill/3.jpg

The pump:
http://www.getgood.com/dfgnet/pictures/overkill/2.jpg

The heating element- or in this case, cooling element:
http://www.getgood.com/dfgnet/pictures/overkill/4.jpg

[SewerBeing]

and I thought you were insane before. Wow looks awesome.

WELCOME BACK!!!!

[Diggrr]

:thup:
Unmistakenly the work of a plumber there! Sweet!
What's the reading on that pressure gage?

I can imagine the neighbor lady watching you dig a hole for it, and asking where the missus was...:D

[SewerBeing]

I can imagine the neighbor lady watching you dig a hole for it, and asking where the missus was...:D

Response you dont want to hear "How did you know that was my plan?" or "Rats there goes that plan? finally "Anyone know the thermal properties of human bodies?" lol. please take pics of it in the ground :)

[{PMS}fishy]

Wow!

[Xenocide]

burry that mofo in your yard and run the lines inside!!!

[GTFouts]

Sometimes, I think you guys border on the edge of Insanity...hehe. That shoud cool any number of PC that your heart desires!! Perhaps you should contact NASA, I hear they need a new cooling system for the Shuttle!! :attn:

[rogerdugans]

Sometimes, I think you guys border on the edge of Insanity...

Possibly true.
In my case, some have suggested that I border on sanity.

Either way, I enjoy me. :D

An update:

I now have two rigs running through my loop (cpus @ 100% load):

xp2200@2078 35.5c with 1.71vcore (Aquajoe gold block)
xp1600@1833 39c with 2.0 vcore (Cascade) (When did I turn that chip down? SHOULD be up at 2 Ghz or so!)

The loudest thing in my cellar is my Koolance Exos. :)
In fact I can hear the keys on the keyboard click as I type this- not a big deal there but I had forgotten that they make noise, lol.

So the testing continues....
After a few days for temps to really stabilize (only had both running for about 15 minutes) and so on, I will add a video card block to the system.

Next report will have a water temp once things settle down.

[Ven0m]

With this radiator burried it would be really nice.
I wonder why such pumps are so rare in water cooling rigs. They give lots of water flow, pressure and they run silent...

[sunrunner20]

They also probally poor heat into the loop like mad. THATS why people don't use them.

[Ven0m]

Hmm, I have Grundfos pump in basement and it doesn't produce that much heat.
It can be set to 30/60/90W, runs at Ist gear and I'm sure it will outperform kiddie aquarium pumps (powers here 3 floors + basement, so I doubt that water cooling rig will render any problems). Many of newer Grundfos pumps have linear regulation. Central heating / clima pumps are pretty chemically resistant and are avaible in 130 and 180mm installation lenghts. Lenght will be even greater, as they're rather designed for common "house" tubing, so you will need reductors. Unfortunatly, I haven't got experience with other brands.
My guesses about why people don't use them:
- they don't know that they can use such pump
- some of these pumps are really expensive, but you can get some <Eheim price
- "omg that's sooo huge"
- some may be afraid of huge water flow and pressure

I think that properly chosen pump would do job. I've found some people here using UP Series 100 and UPS Grundfos pumps. There are many different models including ones that can pump 2m^3 at 10m head (max head for the most powerful UP is 12m and flow 10m^3 (at 2m).

[gl4ss]

grundfosses are used sometimes for wc, there's been several installations with them..

I'd use one if i got one that was in good shape for free.

and they're generally expensive and not as 'normal'.. so people go with stuff that other people have gone with.

btw.. big reservoirs do the passive cooling job as well..

[rogerdugans]

I would say that the two biggest reasons these pumps are not used much are:

1) People don't know about them.
2) Cost.

And even for those who know about them, I think cost is a pretty large factor.....

The pump I have goes for about $300.

Well worth it in a lot of ways-
expected lifetime in constant use of 5 to 10 years
Bronze construction
Quiet

But I will admit that if I had to spend the money to get one myself, I would now be discussing the difficulties of running my 3 Eheim 1250s in this loop. ;)

In any case-
I left the machines running under 100% load since the last update and temps are now at:
XP2200= 38.5c (AquaJoe)
XP1600=41c (Cascade)

Water temp (via the same type of thermometer used in heating systems- probe in pipe)= 27.7c
Ambient=20.4c

Not exactly the most impressive stats ever listed, but I would not like to bet on the accuracy of the various measuring devices either....
But the fact is that both machines are running about 1c hotter than they were before with separate, louder cooling systems.

What is good is that I am getting this performance when I KNOW I still have some air in the system, and that the heating element has no forced air circulation and little contact with the floor.
And my added connection for the second pc is very crude: 2 pieces of 1/2" ID copper tube about 4 feet long.

At some point I will see what happens with a small floor fan aimed at it.

Experiment list:
VGA cooling
Floor fan
Manifold to switch between series and parallel cooling schemes.

Other ideas/suggestions for experiments to try are welcomed :)

[Ven0m]

Hmm I mentioned these pumps, as on local internet auctions here you can sometimes get one for reasonable price - around $80-120, when bigger Eheims are really expensive (around $90 for 1048, which is kinda small).

btw, your rig is so "weird", in positive meaning. Invite someone who hasn't heard about water cooling and explain him / her that you need all that stuff :D

[rogerdugans]

I consider "weird" to be a compliment in this context...and if you think its weird NOw, wait 'till summer. :D

As for comments from those who know nothing about water cooling-

The guys I work with all know I am a self-admitted computer geek and they do ask me the occasional questions..
I have also been asking them various questions about some of the parts I have access to at times, and they have a general idea what I am doing...my point: when I told them what I was using for a pump they all called me various variations of "fool." lol

[rogerdugans]

Overkill Update:

I have been running with the two systems for a while now and all is good.
As an experiment I placed a small floor fan in front of the heating element and water temp went from 27.7c (full load on both cpus) to 24.4c, with a commensurate drop in cpu temps. :)

And the fan is barely audible: quieter than the Exos or the Taco water pump.

At this point, the power supplies are the major source of noise down here. :)

I broke down and spent $15 on some copper fittings and a plastic valve for the test manifold yesterday; sometime in the next week I will fab something up so that I can switch between series and parallel for the cooling loop.
Note that since I am using 2 very different styles of block with different amounts of flow restriction, running parallel will probably require that I throttle back one of the loops to get decent performance out of both blocks.
With a more standard pump, this would be a flow killer but with this Taco unit I expect to do pretty well.

Before I can actually test the manifold I have to get the Clearflex I ordered though, which is about a week out.

[Ven0m]

My guess is that you won't need flow control at all, or at least not in dramatic way.
A lil explaination here - th more water you run through block, the more restriction it gives. So at some point, with enough powerful pump, water flow should equalize. Of course that it won't be the same for different rigs, but you may be sure that one rig won't consume great most of water flow.

Manual flow adjuting will result in more water for one computer or another, but I think that it won't give much difference over natural regulation.

Please make a post, when only you have some results. I'm very curious about it and if my understanding of water dynamics is proper.

[rogerdugans]

Yeah, I'm not really sure about it either but I KNOW that my understanding of fluid dynamics is pretty weak.

That's why I want to run a few tests.
I had HOPED to score a few pressure gauges that had low enough ranges to get accurate readings, but no luck so far.

The only thing that I am sure of at this point is that the Cascade cooling my main system SHOULD be performing better than it is right now-
I disconnected the Eheim 1250 to hook up to this thing and the load temp went up.

But that is part of what I enjoy about this stuff: using my limited understanding to come up with theories and then testing it out and seeing what works best.

And seeing if I can figure out WHY. (Or if someone can teach me WHY! ;))

[Ripper1]

That is insanity. How many systems do you think that thing can take?

[SewerBeing]

Yeah, I'm not really sure about it either but I KNOW that my understanding of fluid dynamics is pretty weak.

That's why I want to run a few tests.
I had HOPED to score a few pressure gauges that had low enough ranges to get accurate readings, but no luck so far.

The only thing that I am sure of at this point is that the Cascade cooling my main system SHOULD be performing better than it is right now-
I disconnected the Eheim 1250 to hook up to this thing and the load temp went up.

But that is part of what I enjoy about this stuff: using my limited understanding to come up with theories and then testing it out and seeing what works best.

And seeing if I can figure out WHY. (Or if someone can teach me WHY! ;))


yeah the eheim 1250 should increase temps because it adds heat to the loop now with that pump you are probably at the point of little return for added flow. Hence all you are adding is heat. Try adding tht eheim and another rad.

[rogerdugans]

I do have some concern that my flow may be too much over the top- that's one of the reasons I want to try the parallel manifold.
Adding a "conventional" radiator and fans WOULD doubtless help- but it invalidates the point of the project:
Cooling multiple computers with one cooling loop and ZERO rad fans.

The other consideration I have for the worsened performance on the Cascade system is that it is the second block in the loop and getting water that has been pre-heated by the other block.
The pump is after the blocks and before the radiator to minimize the effect it has on heating the water...it definitely does though, and I am sure to a much greater extent than a more "traditional" water cooling pump.

Experiments continue though, and I now have my new Clearflex and the parts I need to make my manifold so I may be able to get that done this week.
(Right now I am sidetracked by some video card testing. ;))

[rogerdugans]

Overkill Update:

No real news, but wanted to post up what little I have done this week for any who are interested.

I have the clearflex and all the parts needed for the series/parallel test manifold. I made up 2 of the three assemblies I need but due to (no cost) parts availability I need to change one section a bit.
I plan on doing that tonight but I won't be installing them this evening: it will be late and I will be too tired to mess with draining much of the system and then going through the hassles of refilling it!
Besides- messing with water cooling when I am too tired has cost me a few parts before....;)

I have my nephew coming up this weekend and he may be here tomorrow- if so, I may not get the time to mess with things until the middle of next week sometime.

Pics will be posted once the assemblies are made.

[Blackstar]

What you really need to do is hook that puppy up to a Mac mini and see what numbers you would get.

:D

-Blackstar

[rogerdugans]

LOL @ Blackstar.
One in every crowd. ;)

Ok, a cute story and an update.

My nephew is up for a few days so I had not expected to have the chance to mess with things until next week, however, I got burnt out on Scooby Doo cartoons and had to do something for a while this afternoon.
I shut down and started messing around with the rig and swapping parts out and the little guy (almost 5 years old) came down and asked what I was doing..
When I told him I was doing some experiments on the computer cooling system he said "Cool! Can I help?"
And for the next hour he helped some and began making his own "projects" out of my spare parts. Even figured out how to thread fittings and nipples together. :)
The kid has a future. ;)

The update:

Running with the new manifolds in place now.
I did a quick test at idle and it seems that running two separate loops gets me about a 2c improvement there.

I am running in the one loop configuration again now, and have stress running for 100% cpu load. It will take a day or two to bleed all the air out of this setup, so temps may improve a bit.
I plan to run 100% load tests for about 4 days:
Series (one loop) 24 hours, shut down and bleed air.
Parallel (separate cpu loops) 24 hours, shut down and bleed air.
Repeat.

That should get good readings and all the air out of the system.

I just installed ftp software again so I can upload some pics- a few more posts to follow shortly.

[SewerBeing]

yeah that is cute :) and of course he has a future he is hanging out with you. ok I cant think of anything else to say except show us the pictures

[rogerdugans]

Sorry, but my ftp software won't connect right at the moment and I am not sure why.....
It could be a problem with the ftp server.

If it isn't working tomorrow I'll set up with another and post the pics.
Edit:
Not sure what is up with the ftp but too tired to mess with it so uploading here.
The first pic shows the individual assemblies and the other two show them in use.

The tall piece with the 2" copper pipe is on the return line (going to pump from blocks). The larger size pipe should help to maintain volume going into the pump. In theory. ;)

The way it works:

With the 2 brass valves closed and the plastic valve open, water goes through both blocks in one loop.

Close the plastic valve and open the other two and each block gets its own flow from the primary loop.

Temps so far:
Ambient: 19c
Water: 28c
Aqua Joe: 39c
Cascade: 38c

[Blackstar]

Makes me wonder if just getting a unused water heater, and putting that in the hole, and surrounding it in concrete might not be a bad idea. Can't imagine you hitting equilibrium any time soon with that much of a tank volume. ;)

Or maybe a combination of the two with the grid?

-Blackstar

[rogerdugans]

The underground tank idea has been done and works quite well if the volume is big enough. (I'm not positive, but I think 5 gallons is sufficient and 10 or more good. Don't quote me. ;))

I hope to improve performance by increasing the surface are though: as we know, in heat dissipation surface area is KING.

I have partially proven to myself that my concept will work as the surface area I have combined with the volume of water in the loop is capable of cooling TWO computers putting out close to 200 watts of heat combined with only a slight increase in temps over just one pc.

Once I add a third system at some point, along with at least one video card and probably chipset I will have more data.
Temps will stay nearly the same or will climb.
We'll see. ;)

[Blackstar]

Yeah, it would be interesting I think to see if both of them in conjunction would increase the cooling potential of the rig.

Can't wait to see the finished manifold as well. BTW, I love the new avatar Dugans. ;)

- Blackstar

[Lt_Horn]

The underground tank idea has been done and works quite well if the volume is big enough. (I'm not positive, but I think 5 gallons is sufficient and 10 or more good. Don't quote me. ;))

what would be the ambient temp outside? i love underground loops.

looks sweet cant wait to see the finals. :clap:

[babyboosdaddy]

OMG , after all your input on my swimming pool cooler project i decided to find your project..... holy carp!!! that is impressive.... i am curious tho being new to watercooling arent those temps close to "really good = really loud " air cooling , like slk-900 with a tornado blowing at full speed ?

[rogerdugans]

I just realized that I should clarify something-

The idea of burying a tank with a large volume has been done before, but not by me.
And I don't really plan on adding that to the mix- it is going to be enough work to dig a 4 by 6 foot hole 4 feet deep in my yard; adding a large volume tank at that depth is far more work than I am going to do, especially since my belief is that the surface area I have to transfer heat will suffice quite well.

babyboosdaddy-
Yeah, the temps I am getting are not out of the realm of possibility for high end air cooling. In general ANY form of water cooling that doesn't include pelts , chillers or bongs will be within the range of high end air.

But then there is the noise factor. :)
The noise level I have now is less than it was with multiple traditional water cooling systems; and the heat exchanger is not buried yet.

[rogerdugans]

It's been a while since I updated this project but I went a while without doing much as well: foot surgery and kinda out of action.
Recovering now and regaining mobility so I have put some of my time to good use. :)

Additions:
Watercooling two video cards and one chipset.
Blocks:
*modified jfettig vga block (needed bigger mounting plate to fit on new style GF4 card)
*home made copper plate/pipe cap vga block
*home made copper plate/pipe cap northbridge block

I am no longer keeping everything running 24/7 due to finances (not working right now and electricity ain't cheap) but after letting temps stabilize and playing Doom3 for a good stretch, temps are pretty much the same; maybe 1c warmer all around, if that.

Unfortunately I am unlikely to be able to plant the heat exchanger as soon as I had hoped since I have to let the foot fully heal before I go digging up the yard, but I have my fingers crossed that I will be able to bury the thing sometime in May.

[rogerdugans]

Been a while since I posted anything in here:

I have the copper for the lines into the house, and I have assistance ready in the form of a few friends who can operate shovels....
Now I need the weather to cooperate:
given the size and depth of the hole, and the fact that I have a nuber of small kids on my street, I need to fill the hole soon after I start and NOT leave a "swimming pool"....

The recent rainy weather has stopped me once......

[xTrEmEoVrClOcKr]

Looks good.

[Feydd]

Wow that gives a whole new definition to the term 'heat pipe'.

[xCRF450]

that is insane...

[noob_ass]

nice pics :D

[rogerdugans]

Update time. :)

With the cool weather last weekend I dug my hole but hit a snag- one HUGE rock, specifically. This makes my max depth about 3 feet and the high point (to help bleed air) about 30 inches. Not as deep as I wanted, and fairly sure to have ambient temps outside affect performance unfortunately.

This weekend was spent working on the system as well- record hot day and I, fool that I am, was soldering copper pipe. ;)
But I got it done.

Results are good, bad and indifferent:
Temps run about 38c load on a 95 degree day- with essentially zero noise.
That is with just the one computer with cpu, video and chipset blocks.
As a reference point: my Koolance-cooled LAN rig (which does pretty well also) was running around 50c load.

Today was spent painting pipe and digging out my computer room a bit; once the room is back in decent shape again (and I can score more fittings and copper pipe!) I will be adding more computers again to see what kind of impact more computers will have.

Money spent for the project: about $135 for various fittings, paint and coolant/additives.
Approximate value of the system if full price was paid: nearly $3k.

I have some pics to upload; once done I will post them.

[jcw122]

ahhh i remember this thread! Almost forgot about it lol

[dicecca112]

This weekend was spent working on the system as well- record hot day and I, fool that I am, was soldering copper pipe.
But I got it done.

You are insane, this weather was nuts, but I should talk I was putting together a patio set in the thunderstorms, while under a metal gazebo

[SewerBeing]

yep this just reaffirms the fact that you have indeed lost your sanity along the way. Nice job man and 38C with almost no noise is quite good :) Glad to see you are still working on it.

[rogerdugans]

Try this again....

Pic 1-
The system as it appears inside the house.
http://home.comcast.net/~dgetgood/inside.jpg

pic 2-
Looking through the window at the piping going underground.
Note the 1" isolation and fill valves. There is also a 1/2" bleed valve partially hidden by the piping.
http://home.comcast.net/~dgetgood/outside.jpg

Pic 3-
The Pump. 'Nuff said. :)
http://home.comcast.net/~dgetgood/pump.jpg

Pic 4-
The shiny piece is actually a hot water geating system vent valve: automatically vents air from the system. :)
http://home.comcast.net/~dgetgood/vent.jpg

[rogerdugans]

Pic 5-
My main computer in it's temporary home while I redo the case.
I no longer NEED a huge case for this system, but I like it....
http://home.comcast.net/~dgetgood/system.jpg

A few points:
I have extra 1" brass valves on the inlet and outlet for future use. All that is needed is to pipe whatever connections or manifold I desire in (with unions, preferably!) and then bleed and top off the coolant.

The pressure gauges I have on there now do NOT work- I have one that does but I'm trying to score a matched set, for appearance' sake. ;)

[Lunar_Lamp]

That is truely awesome. Though, erm, don't you need to sort out something a little more waterproof for that window;)?
I like the way you think though - oh to be able to live somewhere I could attempt crazy projects like this!

[{PMS}fishy]

Insulate that cooper so the hot sun doesn't heat it up.

[rogerdugans]

Lunar_Lamp:
Thanks for the kind comments.
I have plans for the window-
A piece to close off the area of the pipe pass-through is partially done and I will be making some type of window for the rest. The new window may fold or slide, I have not decided yet, but it will open for airflo in temperate months.

Insulate that cooper so the hot sun doesn't heat it up.

The "cooper" ;) pipe is behind bushes and actually receives very little direct light, so that affect is negligible. However, when ambient temp is high it definitely does have some affect I am sure. With about 120 feet of stainless and 20 feet of copper underground and only 10 feet of copper above ground outside, I wonder if that surface are is affecting things much though.....

I have/am considering insulation nevertheless, and if I can score some FREE, I will certainly try it. :)

[rogerdugans]

Small update, long after the fact. ;)

Still running well though only in use for one system at the moment, as I slowly clean out my cellar computer room/project lab, lol.

Two changes to the system:
1) I added a temporary T-Line outside until I get some clear plastic pipe to use inside, and finish the manifolds...(Anyone know of a good source for clear 2" pipe?)

2) I broke down and bought a pair of 15 PSI gauges since all the ones I have scored free were either broken or 150 psi. Supply house salesman gave me a pretty good discount though- half price, so I got two for the price of one. :)

With accurate gauges I can give a bit of info:
Pump outlet about 2.75 psi.
Pump inlet about 2.25 psi.
(Note that the pressure is slowly climbing as air bleeds out.)

I don't find this too surprising with somewhere around 160 feet of 1" pipe in the system, 7 feet of 1/2 tube and 3 water blocks.

The gauges are actually mounted between the pump outlet and "radiator" and between the rad and water blocks- it would be interesting to see just how much the pressure changes between the blocks and pump inlet as well....mayhap I will need another gauge. ;)

Parts are starting to collect for the manifold I want to make, but it IS a slow process, finding good valves and so on.

**Edit- as for the sun heating the small amount of copper that is above ground outside: no direct sunlight, basically, so there is little heating effect. Ambient air temp will affect it a bit, but with such a small percentage of the total piping exposed I think it minimal.
Come winter I MAY need to insulate it to help prevent condensation though....fortunately we have quite a bit of extra insulation sitting around at work. :D

[rogerdugans]

Another of my infrequent updates. ;)

System #2 was finally added in preparation for a LAN here this weekend-
cpu temps are pretty much the same on the main rig, and where expected on the new one: under 40c (idle currently.)

I had to swap in a new sound card this AM, and when I did I forgot to reopen the isolation valves for #2 when I powered up...
With no flow, cpu temp hit 60 in 5 minutes (software shuts down at 65c) and within 30 seconds of opening the valves was back to 40c.
With both machines under load temps go up less than 5c. :)

[phaeton]

Sounds good, and more importantly, crazy.

[chunkeymunkey25]

Geez, with that powerful of a loop you'd think you would at least make a peltier drink cooler to not waste so much of that cooling potential :p
Nevertheless, awesome work, and I presume you aren't going to take that loop with you to the lan, or are you even more insane that I thought possible -> :bang head :shrug:

[rogerdugans]

Geez, with that powerful of a loop you'd think you would at least make a peltier drink cooler to not waste so much of that cooling potential :p
Nevertheless, awesome work, and I presume you aren't going to take that loop with you to the lan, or are you even more insane that I thought possible -> :bang head :shrug:

Actually, I will have the loop at the LAN.

The LAN is at my house. ;)

As far as other "equipment" being connected to Overkill-
All things are possible, as time and scrounging free parts allow. :)

[whozyodaddy]

Haha, that's crazy man. Good job.

[chunkeymunkey25]

Oh, that lan :p
As for what to use the loop for, an Arctic Web 437W would probably be good enough to freeze a drink in about a minute :santa:

[Blackstar]

Hey, any news on the evaporation problem? When you get the handles set up we'll have to get some updated picts with the new high tech gages. ;)

I'm sure the OC guys would love to see it.

-Blackstar

[voigts]

Definitely the work of a bored plumber :) . I would agree with your statement that you border on sanity! That is one outrageous setup. I can already imagine trying to explain to my wife that i am digging a hole in the yard to cool our computer. She already thinks I'm nuts when it comes to watercooling.

I watercooled two computers for a friend of mine on a car rad with no fans on the rad. His temps run around 38c for an older AMD 1ghz and about 43c for an AMD XP 3200 or so according the MB readings. Not nearly as "scientific" or as well monitored or gauged, but it is working well for him and is very quiet. http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=406373

I think I would go the car rad route as that is what i also have on my system (http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=401801&page=1&pp=30).

[{PMS}fishy]

All you pictures are dead.

Whats the deal? Do I need to come over there....?

[1twelve2]

All you pictures are dead...

times 2

[Silver]

I'll third that. PICS please. :p

[Benvanz]

Bump and a forth vote for pics